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General Category => Modellers At Work => Topic started by: HelgeAndreas on April 11, 2021, 04:02:51 PM



Title: Small bridge over Wassertobelbach at Cavadürli, Switzerland.
Post by: HelgeAndreas on April 11, 2021, 04:02:51 PM
I am sure I have had the drawings for this small bridge, and the one for the reconstruction for the Cavadürli Station in 1905, since 20 years without getting on with the project. The challenge was (besides time) that I could not produce accurate enough parts, and the eternal challenge of soldering.

But it is finally moving forward. It is not at all perfect yet, particularly visible on the Bridge of track 2. That version is in real life constructed from Flat and L-profil-iron Riveted together (Is that the correct verb?). By the  next version I will make a better jigg for montage. I am more pleased with the results of track 1. This bridge, from the early days, is in real life constructed from a H-beam (my model from brass strips soldered together), but some time, maybe at the reconstruction in 1905 (or with the introduction of heavier locomotives), reinforced at the top and bottom with flat irons.

My method is simple, even if difficult enough to get accurate, clean results. I press the rivets with a riveter my wife bought me from Switzerland 25 years ago :-) Birthday I believe. I have mounted this tool on a jigg of wood where I have also mounted a calliper. In that way I can produce quite accurate “rows” of rivets. Bigger Bolts, ie this holding the diagonal L-profiles keeping the 2 H-beams together,  will be mounted separately and soldered.

I have a small saw that can cut thin brass too, with a calliper mounted also. For this project I use brasstrips 0,4 - 0,3 - 0,2 mm thickness. The soldering is still not an easy task, but things get better with practice (being a musician - why am I surprised..?) The technics I use is to “sweat” on solder with acid water and an soldering station. Then quickly attach the components with the same, then to fix the parts together, one by one, with the resistance soldering unit.

Small progress, but very fulfilling.
Wishing you all a pleasant start of the week.
Helge Andreas


Title: Re: Small bridge over Wassertobelbach at Cavadürli, Switzerland.
Post by: finescalerr on April 11, 2021, 09:56:51 PM
Beautiful work. -- Russ


Title: Re: Small bridge over Wassertobelbach at Cavadürli, Switzerland.
Post by: Lawton Maner on April 11, 2021, 10:31:46 PM
For a really good series of how to visuals on building a bridge out of brass go to:

https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/index.php?topic=2257.msg61010#msg61010

Don't try to reinvent the wheel. 


Title: Re: Small bridge over Wassertobelbach at Cavadürli, Switzerland.
Post by: Ray Dunakin on April 11, 2021, 11:05:06 PM
Nice work! Much better than I could do.


Title: Re: Small bridge over Wassertobelbach at Cavadürli, Switzerland.
Post by: Hydrostat on April 11, 2021, 11:48:14 PM
Looks very good to me!


Title: Re: Small bridge over Wassertobelbach at Cavadürli, Switzerland.
Post by: Hauk on April 12, 2021, 12:14:40 AM
It is 0-scale, it´s metergauge, it´s brass, it´s real rivets, its excellent craftsmanship.
Whats not to like?


Title: Re: Small bridge over Wassertobelbach at Cavadürli, Switzerland.
Post by: HelgeAndreas on April 12, 2021, 01:14:30 AM
For a really good series of how to visuals on building a bridge out of brass go to:

https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/index.php?topic=2257.msg61010#msg61010

Don't try to reinvent the wheel. 


Thanks for the tip! I remember reading that serie, completely stunned by the level. I am not sure I understand everything there, but a few ideas to check out for further building. Especially thinking of the "Hohlfräser" technic, but also making subassemblies of parts being later joined, and keeping distances with flat pieces of Aluminium or stainless steel. Good the scale is double of mine, but truly inspirational to read what is possible at the top level. H


Title: Re: Small bridge over Wassertobelbach at Cavadürli, Switzerland.
Post by: HelgeAndreas on April 12, 2021, 02:07:39 PM
It is 0-scale, it´s metergauge, it´s brass, it´s real rivets, its excellent craftsmanship.
Whats not to like?

It is partly your fault! :-)

H


Title: Re: Small bridge over Wassertobelbach at Cavadürli, Switzerland.
Post by: HelgeAndreas on April 13, 2021, 03:53:39 AM
I’ve been asked about my riveting-technic. There is nothing special about it really. The rivets are a combination of real rivets bought from Old Pullman, and punched ones. Since these beams are only partially visible under the wooden ties on the bridges, the majority are punched. Most important exception is the larger ones on the vertical part of the H-beam from track 1.

The Punch itself was a gift from my wife (!) some 25 years ago (before internet shopping), I think the producer was Wemoba in Switzerland. It cam with different holes for creating rivet-imitations 0.4 - 0.5 - 0.6mm. It has a locking screw to have equal depths of the punches.

I always found it difficult to make the rivets being in line. Even if it comes with holes in fixed distances, like 0.3 - 0.4 - and 0.5mm. The previous rivet would fit into the previous hole and thus keeping it stable. In my case everything that I tried to build didn’t have those distances. I tried different techniques but anded up understanding how much more accurate the fence was on the riveter, far better than my efforts of scribing. It took a bit of practice to understand how hard to push against the fence, and also to mount the riveter on a jig so the the metal strip would lay flat on the surface and touching the back of the calliper.

On the second photo you can see some of the mistakes that I did. But you can also see (I hope) that the accuracy and repeatability is acceptable.

On the third photo you see the vertical part of the H-beam. It might look inaccurate, but to keep the positions of the punches as symmetric as possible, I’ve flipped them over. I am using the punch here as a drill-guidance. The light in the photo makes them look weird, but after drilling it looks very nice I think.

H


Title: Re: Small bridge over Wassertobelbach at Cavadürli, Switzerland.
Post by: SandiaPaul on April 13, 2021, 04:14:50 AM
Can you tell us about "old Pullman"?


Title: Re: Small bridge over Wassertobelbach at Cavadürli, Switzerland.
Post by: HelgeAndreas on April 13, 2021, 07:21:46 AM
Can you tell us about "old Pullman"?

Old Pullman is a company in Stäfa, Switzerland that sells a lot of (American) model railway items. I buy my miniature rivets there.

https://www.oldpullman.ch



Title: Re: Small bridge over Wassertobelbach at Cavadürli, Switzerland.
Post by: finescalerr on April 13, 2021, 02:09:16 PM
Old Pullman used to advertise with me when Beat Hug owned it and lived in Florida. He sold 1:32 scale products, all of very high quality. Is it the same business now under new ownership? -- Russ


Title: Re: Small bridge over Wassertobelbach at Cavadürli, Switzerland.
Post by: SandiaPaul on April 13, 2021, 06:59:07 PM
Thanks for the link...I don't think google translate does a good job. I don't see any rivets and other categories don't seem to work either, for example Hex brass just shows are one "size", that does not actually show a size.

Very curious about the rivets though...


Title: Re: Small bridge over Wassertobelbach at Cavadürli, Switzerland.
Post by: Lawrence@NZFinescale on April 13, 2021, 09:08:05 PM
Thanks for the link...I don't think google translate does a good job. I don't see any rivets and other categories don't seem to work either, for example Hex brass just shows are one "size", that does not actually show a size.

Very curious about the rivets though...

I would 3d print rivets.  You can do a lifetime supply in one run and it's easy to do.  I did a couple of thousand NBWs the other day for a friend.


Title: Re: Small bridge over Wassertobelbach at Cavadürli, Switzerland.
Post by: Hauk on April 14, 2021, 12:04:37 AM
I would 3d print rivets.  You can do a lifetime supply in one run and it's easy to do.  I did a couple of thousand NBWs the other day for a friend.


That would be the rational choice for most applications.
I use brass rivets both for rational and irrational reasons. The rational reason is that I use the rivets for exact positioning of etched parts before soldering. In some rare cases I also make real riveted connections for moving parts, like on my pantographs.

The irrational reason is that I like the look of brass rivets and etched metal in my many "in progress" shots. I enjoy those pictures almost as much as the pictures of finished models.

The Old Pullman Rivets can be found here:
https://www.oldpullman.ch/gebude-zubehr/37694-21685-messing-nieten.html#/21685-variante-10_x_120_mm_100_stk (https://www.oldpullman.ch/gebude-zubehr/37694-21685-messing-nieten.html#/21685-variante-10_x_120_mm_100_stk)

Speaking of real rivets, I know of a Swedish modeller that use real riveting extencively for his 0-scale models.  He has made a special pair of riveting pliers with dies made from hardened steel. He uses short lengths of 0,5mm copper wire for the rivets. Here is a link to a Swedish Narrow Gauge (Google translate will might be needed for you non-Scandinavians) Forum that shows his technique: http://www.smalsparigt.org/forum-tre-punkt-tva/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2054 (http://www.smalsparigt.org/forum-tre-punkt-tva/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2054). His riveting basics is described on page 2 of the thread. A riveted model is shown on page 22 as well. I can also recommend the pages inbetween as well. For instance,  he does some incredible work with cheap resin printers. And there is a brass bridge in there somewhere as well!


Title: Re: Small bridge over Wassertobelbach at Cavadürli, Switzerland.
Post by: SandiaPaul on April 14, 2021, 04:13:38 AM
Hauk,

Thanks for the info...brass for me too. There used to be a yahoo group called something like Brass Locomotive Builders. Someone there also was doing O scale real riveting. I can't find that group anymore.


Title: Re: Small bridge over Wassertobelbach at Cavadürli, Switzerland.
Post by: Hauk on April 14, 2021, 04:20:05 AM
Hauk,

Thanks for the info...brass for me too. There used to be a yahoo group called something like Brass Locomotive Builders. Someone there also was doing O scale real riveting. I can't find that group anymore.

I was a member there, too. Very little activity even in the best of days, and I guess they never made the transit to another platform when Yahoo Groups closed shop.


Title: Re: Small bridge over Wassertobelbach at Cavadürli, Switzerland.
Post by: Lawrence@NZFinescale on April 14, 2021, 02:21:14 PM
Hauk,

Thanks for the info...brass for me too. There used to be a yahoo group called something like Brass Locomotive Builders. Someone there also was doing O scale real riveting. I can't find that group anymore.

I was a member there too, and I do prefer metal for building locos.  However, as I've stated elsewhere, while the individual models have their own identity, for me they form a part of a larger layout project.  So some pragmatic choices creep in: Do I make every rivet from brass or do I do something else that saves time and money without unduly compromising the result.  I won't live long enough to complete the larger picture with a rivet by rivet approach so pragmatism is required.  On a personal level I really enjoy building in metal, but it takes time.  I reckon the latest advances in printers have upped my productivity by a factor of 10 and the quality of the models has improved too.  My emotional investment in each model is obviously down a bit, but overall the enjoyment factor is way up - which is what it is all about.


Title: Re: Small bridge over Wassertobelbach at Cavadürli, Switzerland.
Post by: HelgeAndreas on April 14, 2021, 02:37:24 PM
Old Pullman used to advertise with me when Beat Hug owned it and lived in Florida. He sold 1:32 scale products, all of very high quality. Is it the same business now under new ownership? -- Russ

Hi.

I am really not sure, unfortunately. But there products have high quality.

Greetings, Helge Andreas


Title: Re: Small bridge over Wassertobelbach at Cavadürli, Switzerland.
Post by: Design-HSB on April 14, 2021, 03:01:30 PM
Hello, here a supplier for small and finest twisted rivets in Europe:

Knupfer (https://knupfer.info/shop/index.php/deutsch/nieten-nietenschrauben/feinnieten-halbrundkopf.html)



Title: Re: Small bridge over Wassertobelbach at Cavadürli, Switzerland.
Post by: HelgeAndreas on April 15, 2021, 12:45:04 AM
Thanks!
This supplier is new to me.

Vh H


Title: Re: Small bridge over Wassertobelbach at Cavadürli, Switzerland.
Post by: SandiaPaul on April 15, 2021, 04:19:49 AM
Great source for small rivets, thanks! Since I model in the live steam world, plastic just isn't going to work for me! Melted rivets!


Title: Re: Small bridge over Wassertobelbach at Cavadürli, Switzerland.
Post by: HRB on July 01, 2021, 02:38:31 PM
Hello,
Grandt Line used to make plastic rivets - economical. Parts numbers are /were # 152 - 157, 3 sizes, ea conical and round head. I do not know if they are available at the moment.
HRB


Title: Re: Small bridge over Wassertobelbach at Cavadürli, Switzerland.
Post by: SandiaPaul on July 02, 2021, 04:01:49 AM
Tichy Train Group has plastic rivets:
https://www.tichytraingroup.com/Shop/tabid/91/ProductID/954/Default.aspx


Title: Re: Small bridge over Wassertobelbach at Cavadürli, Switzerland.
Post by: finescalerr on July 02, 2021, 01:43:58 PM
Much of Grandt's tooling wore out. http://sanjuancarco.com (http://sanjuancarco.com) acquired some and they might help you locate other sources of plastic details aside from Tichy. -- Russ


Title: Re: Small bridge over Wassertobelbach at Cavadürli, Switzerland.
Post by: Ray Dunakin on July 02, 2021, 11:29:28 PM
San Juan has a separate site for the former Grandt Line details:   https://sanjuandetails.com (https://sanjuandetails.com)