Not in the league of certain projects here on the forum, but here is my sawmill project anyway:
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.folk-rovere.org%2Fmj%2Fbilder%2Fdio_01_w.jpg&hash=8cfd680ed231e69d9606e80e5abd1c22b5e6b064)
Its part of a pretty large diorama/testtrack
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.folk-rovere.org%2Fmj%2Fbilder%2Fdio_02_w.jpg&hash=fa657f224a037daa6ff686f815ed16c3518004db)
The project was started before discovering the famous Silverwood stain, so all wood is stained using A-west-Weather-it straight from the bottle.
No further weathering yet, suggestions for how to proceed is much welcomed!
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.folk-rovere.org%2Fmj%2Fbilder%2Fdio_03_w.jpg&hash=046bb6a1b1e5944f0b16aa495e2cc779ab5440f7)
Next step is to build the roof. Subroof made of wood, then corrugated aluminium roofing. Good tutorials for painting corrugated siding wanted!
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.folk-rovere.org%2Fmj%2Fbilder%2Fdio_04_w.jpg&hash=92fd610410a5c8e75ed06b5e792ebbffae5223c3)
Even if the protoype was small, it was served by rail. I really like the simple timber loading dock. No logs longer than 24´need apply!
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.folk-rovere.org%2Fmj%2Fbilder%2Fsagblad_01_W.jpg&hash=130f77ad5a4c10c3e96c408349d9b80eb3b77568)
Blades for the saw. Chemical blackening, then polished with ground pencil graphite. Need a bit more shine as the model will represent an operating mill. But research has shown that this type of sawmills have pretty dark blades, even if they are still in operation. Suggestions for getting a bit lighter and shinier finish, anyone?
A couple of prototype shots:
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.folk-rovere.org%2Fmj%2Ftb_naatid%2F056_solbu_sag5.jpg&hash=fa587b8b72fa48ca1f72aa19e35cd7c8de8876a2)
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.folk-rovere.org%2Fmj%2Ftb_naatid%2F052_solbu_sag1.jpg&hash=c5bea0a9a8b7ecb80941f208c107fef64b59e7e1)
I am taking some liberties with the prototype, I want a rusty roof instead the wooden roofing, and I will probably use an stationary steam engine to power the saw. My model is going to be set in the thirties, so the prototype´s electric motor is not very appropriate.
Regards, Håvard H
PS:
Don´t postphone taking all the pictures and measurements you need! I came back for some more pictures and measurments, an this is what I found:
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.folk-rovere.org%2Fmj%2Fbilder%2Fnaatid.jpg&hash=973e60363749832e871be42907c54c106adc050d)
This picture is taken from almost the exact same spot as the exterior shot above.
Grab that camera and yardstick *now*!
The original CHB sawmill kits came with steel blades. I chucked them up in my Dremel tool and sanded them while spinning to get a circular marking. Then a coat of clear, since they would rust if left untreated. I thought they looked rather good!
Havard, looks like you got a good start on this project....I really like the way you did the road and the way the hill's look ;D Craig
Quote from: mobilgas on November 02, 2009, 03:42:05 PM
Havard, looks like you got a good start on this project....I really like the way you did the road and the way the hill's look ;D Craig
Thanks!
The diorama has just sort of grown without no real planning. I threw it together when I needed a testrack in a hurry when I reached the testrunning stage for my Boxcab electric.
I had some vague vision in my head based on the prototype location for the mill, but I never checked to see if things would actually fit.
So there is a tad of accidental forced perspective in the scene. The road in the background is somewhat narrow. At least for pictures, I think it could work to use S-scale vehicles on the road on the far side of the tracks.
I think the composition with the road disappearing into the background looks promesing.
Looks like a good start to me, too.
We'll all be watching this one, Havard.
Good luck.
I spent a two week vacation in the Olympic Peninsula looking for a prototype sawmill and on the last day of my trip at sunset I found it. I took as many bad photos as possible, with that stuff called "film" this was about twenty years ago. I have them and can scan them in for you, if you would like? It was a very small local mill with some drying sheds and a beautiful log pond parallel to the Puget Sound. I will find them and post one.
Gil
HAUK,
Great project, I love small sawmills, especially circle mills.
Your comment about dark blade metal in a running mill is a little perplexing.
any Circle blades I have seen running polish up in a hurry when sawing logs.
Perhaps a different metal alloy?
Attached is a couple shots of a double circle mill ( all steam power by the way)
The one picture shows the lower blade being run and the upper blade static and covered with sap and saw dust thrown up by the running blade.
The other picture shows the upper blade being put into operation (log size) and starting to polish up.
Even though the saw teeth are wider than the blade the sawdust spilling from the tooth gullets into the cut acts as a polishing agent and soon buffs off the rust and tarnish.
Later
Rick Marty
Nice looking project! I agree with you about documenting prototypes before they vanish! I see it happen too often. A shame that your old mill is gone, it was a beauty.
I'm surprised at the size of the teeth on those circular saw blades -- I never realized they were so huge!
Quote from: NORCALLOGGER on November 02, 2009, 06:51:43 PM
HAUK,
Great project, I love small sawmills, especially circle mills.
Your comment about dark blade metal in a running mill is a little perplexing.
any Circle blades I have seen running polish up in a hurry when sawing logs.
Perhaps a different metal alloy?
Attached is a couple shots of a double circle mill ( all steam power by the way)
I might have underestimated the length of inactivity between cutting sessions. What I have been researching is what we in Norway call "Farm Sawmills" as opposed to commercial sawmills. These small saws can probably sit idle for months between cutting any wood, and I guess that is plenty of time for the blades to go dull. Many of these saws were crude affairs with little protection from the elements.
You cant get more basic than this one placed in a mountain reigion here in Norway:
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.folk-rovere.org%2Fmj%2Fbilder%2Foppdalsag_01.jpg&hash=ff026086d76c61840054d7597728ee772155bfe7)
But back to your first comment, I do think my blades needs quite some more shine.
Regards, Håvard H
Håvard, you'll get no criticism from me. Everything on the diorama looks outstanding from the meticulous construction of every element to the graceful track layout to the attention to every detail so far. Thanks for posting. -- Russ
Havard
Very nice diorama really looking forward as you move forward with this. Samills you just have to love them big or small.
Jerry
Lovely little mill!
Looking forward to seeing completed.
I am with Chuck, spin the blades to polish some "lines" in it.
-Marty
Quote from: finescalerr on November 03, 2009, 12:39:52 AM
Håvard, you'll get no criticism from me. Everything on the diorama looks outstanding from the meticulous construction of every element to the graceful track layout to the attention to every detail so far. Thanks for posting. -- Russ
It´s not like I want my work ripped apart, but I do not only post here to seek recognition but also to get constructive comments.
I am a grown boy, I can take a certain level of flak! Hell, I work as an architect, I am used to my work beeing torn apart in public.
One of the reasons I post to no other international BB than WPF is that this is the only place I have found where you can get criticism, and still feel that your contributions are welcome.
Russ, I sincerely appreciate your efforts to make people feel welcome at your place, but there is always room for improvement, and sometimes we need help to see it!
Regards, Håvard H
Well said, Havard.
Sometimes we hesitate offering constructive criticism for fear of how it will be interpreted, but most
of us here look forward to constructive comments that will ultimiately turn us into better builders.
Quote from: lab-dad on November 03, 2009, 04:34:39 AM
Lovely little mill!
Looking forward to seeing completed.
I am with Chuck, spin the blades to polish some "lines" in it.
-Marty
Yes, I am definitively going to try that.
Here is a closeup of one of the blades in the "open" sawmill I showed above:
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.folk-rovere.org%2Fmj%2Fbilder%2FEnganSag_02.jpg&hash=3189c153d8fc3bae9a7829ee716aaab5743864c9)
Not as dull as my first efforts, but neither a shiny chrome finish!
Suprisingly many shades of color in that blade by the way.
Regards, Håvard H
I would love to criticize your modeling but, at this point, I see nothing yet to pick on. You need to get farther along before I can unleash my big guns. -- Russ
Havard,
I think your overall coloring and mottling is pretty darn close to the real thing...it is though the circular marks that are missing.
I notice that there are sort of three general versions/levels of these:
The reddish brown mottling in the major center portion and on the teeth, the lighter grey oxidixed area just below the teeth, and then the faint dark lines in both. The grey silver area seems like it will be tough to get/make so that it appears that warm dull grey....nothing comes to my mind at the moment.....using a pencil lead and burnishing stick will make it too shiny (however you could just simply try spinning the sawblade in a rotary tool and lightly touching an artists burnishing stick to the blackened metal....without any graphite/lead...it might lighten up the blackening just enough...though likely it will most also give you an unwanted sheen).
I was wondering af some kind of very light grey permanent marker could be used to create the outer ring....I know it won't show as grey and will likely end up darker than the center (I only suggested Lt. grey because of it's transluscence).....but it would maybe give you some form of differentiation/ring detail......another thought along those lines is some very light grey pigment, touched to the spinning blade using a small shaped piece of make-up sponge...or one of those premade make-up applicator sponge brushes....the Lt grey pigment might just give you enough of a stripe/detail highlight to imply the greyish/silver ring.
For the faint dark circular lines I was thinking if you maybe mounted the blade in the RT, before blackening, and used a fine grit sandpaper to create very shallow circular lines/grooves in the surface, then blackened the piece, these lines would blacken/show darker than the rest of the blade...especially after you very slightly rubbed off the residue from thr blackened blade with a soft cloth.
Just some wild meandering thoughts.
M
Quote from: Mr Potato Head on November 02, 2009, 06:38:02 PM
I spent a two week vacation in the Olympic Peninsula looking for a prototype sawmill and on the last day of my trip at sunset I found it. I took as many bad photos as possible, with that stuff called "film" this was about twenty years ago. I have them and can scan them in for you, if you would like? It was a very small local mill with some drying sheds and a beautiful log pond parallel to the Puget Sound. I will find them and post one.
Gil
I would love to see your images, you can always learn something from prototype shots.
By the way, the two prototype images of my mill is taken by my trusty old LEICA M6 analogue camera. Poor prints and scanning ufortunately. But the negatives are immaculate!
By the way, thanks to all of you for the encouraging postings!
Hi Hauk,
very nice work so far- hoping to build my own sawmill one day so nice to have a smaller mill for inspiration.
Here are some pics of sawmill blades both stationary and in use. Hopefully you will find them informative. Interestingly the blades were being hosed down while cutting in use which really took the visible shine off them. Will post the pics in series as I get chance to resize them.
Regards
James
Another one in use...
and another with a little bit of cooling water going on...
one more with a bit of atmosphere (or poor focus!)
Good luck with your project, Havard. Look forward to seeing your progress
James
A little progress report.
Chucked the blades in the lathe, used a fiberglass brush to make some threads in the blade. Polished with a graphite stick to get a metallic sheen:
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.folk-rovere.org%2Fmj%2Fbilder%2Fsagblad_02_W.jpg&hash=1e5de77ce16a74b5e77f7c457a980c7598e26a8d)
In this picture i uses some MIG gun metal pigments on the "working" area. Not sure if the pigments made any positive difference:
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.folk-rovere.org%2Fmj%2Fbilder%2Fsagblad_03_w.jpg&hash=3d2024ba76ac57d0faad9458857d66e11f0fb645)
Edit: tried to lighten the blades with a 2B pencil. Would have used an even softer one if I had it:
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.folk-rovere.org%2Fmj%2Fbilder%2Fsagblad_04_W.jpg&hash=318fa6310df869b6f95c1a6c228340e8b8441073)
No difference, the blade is too shiny at this point to pick up anything from the pencil.
All in all an ok result, but I feel it would have looked smashing if the blade was etched in steel or nickel silver.
I will probably go for the blade to the right in the last picture and leave it with that.
The yellow of the brass gives the effect away, but it is impossible to get the rings to show without a little yellow showing. I could try to sell it as a rust color, but I doubt the judges will buy it...
I tried to paint with some Vallejo natural steel color, but it did not fly, looked like it was (surprise, surprise) painted on.
Tried silver pastel chalck, it just gummed up. Disaster.
Feel free to suggest other approches!
But, they have to do for now. Off to buy plaster for the hardshell.
Regards, Håvard
I think a very commendable experiment.
I would probably have considered re-blackening after the fiberglass texture to get rid of the brass....the done the rest of the steps.
M
Quote from: marc_reusser on November 07, 2009, 12:24:03 PM
I think a very commendable experiment.
I would probably have considered re-blackening after the fiberglass texture to get rid of the brass....the done the rest of the steps.
M
I tried that, but I felt the blade got too dark, and the stripes sort of disappeared. So it´s a "damned if I do, damned if I dont" experience. The one to the right is good enough for me, the other one does not pass muster. So this one will be sanded down, reblackend and rusted after maybe braking off a couple of teeth. Thought It could be put to use as a discarded blade placed just outside the door to the mill.
Hauk:
Have you tired coating the blades with Neolube, then buffing them up... it gives a good representation of burnished steel and doesn't look like paint.
Paul
I have not given too much tought about how my saw should be "powered", but after doing some research it seems that a mobile steam engine like this would be quite prototypical for a mill set in the thirties:
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fa%2Fa8%2FSteam_lokomobile_2_%2528aka%2529.jpg&hash=0bce82a18c36ec2bff9edcfa3be49eb09f0143ea)
Anyone have drawings of something similiar? Or are there any kits available?
This would be a nice scrachbuilding project, but it might be wise to go for something quicker...
Paul: I have not tried Neolube, but from what I can tell from pictures online the color seems a bit too dark. Its an interesting product though, and I will probably get me some as I can see several other uses for it as well.
Havard,
Here is one of my many shelf orphans. Scale is 1/48. It is far from perfect, as it was intended as a piece stored in an old shed as to be part of a larger diorama...but alas that never got built either. It is still missing the cylinder and mount, as well as some of the valve/piping detail that goes with it, and the bracing and tow-bar at the front axle.
This started out many years ago, using an old a so-so/fair quality plaster boiler casting from Tom Yorke. The rest was scratchbuilt or scavanged from my parts bin. It is not based upon a specific model or prototype, but rather onan assemblage of bits and pieces/ides borrowed from various photos on the web, and pages in catalogs. These things varried so widely in their details that it made for a fun build, because I could just sort of imply/freelance everything, and still have a plausible looking model...at least from my viewpoint of not knowing anything about these portable boilers.....and for a model that was just to be background clutter anyhow.
Sierra west makes a sim. portable boiler kit that could probably be used as a good starting point if you didn't want to scratch one. I have more photos of these on my HD, but I don't believe I have any dimensions, and the old boiler catalog I have shows the boiler only by itself mounted on a pair of skids.
Sorry for the pic quality, I just took some quick snaps to post here.
Marc
Quote from: marc_reusser on November 09, 2009, 01:29:20 PM
Havard,
Here is one of my many shelf orphans. Scale is 1/48. It is far from perfect, as it was intended as a piece stored in an old shed as to be part of a larger diorama...but alas that never got built either. It is still missing the cylinder and mount, as well as some of the valve/piping detail that goes with it, and the bracing and tow-bar at the front axle.
This started out many years ago, using an old a so-so/fair quality plaster boiler casting from Tom Yorke. The rest was scratchbuilt or scavanged from my parts bin. It is not based upon a specific model or prototype, but rather onan assemblage of bits and pieces/ides borrowed from various photos on the web, and pages in catalogs. These things varried so widely in their details that it made for a fun build, because I could just sort of imply/freelance everything, and still have a plausible looking model...at least from my viewpoint of not knowing anything about these portable boilers.....and for a model that was just to be background clutter anyhow.
I think thats the approach I want to take. I don´t want the steam engine to be the centerpiece of the diorama, so it don´t have to be a supermodel. I have found several pictures of engines that have been operating in my part of Norway, and one is apperantly preserved at a museum in my home town. I will try to get some measurements and pictures soon.
Here is a picture:
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.folk-rovere.org%2Fmj%2Fbilder%2Flokomobil_14.jpg&hash=3d66e1323b64f7d491e81c5c45575a1a43ea8297)
I dont care for the red wheels, I think I prefer a black one thats quite weathered, but not a wreck.
Marc: Nice looking model, even unfinished.
Hauk: Cool photos, those are both interesting prototypes.
A little progress report on the mill.
I am not very familiar with the proper terms, but here is a little essay in making the legs for the sawbench. Please feel free to insert proper terms!
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.folk-rovere.org%2Fmj%2Fbilder%2Fsagbenk_01_w.jpg&hash=9a320bbc7853ed5b59cbb6601fa1426cb8792d16)
The legs are built in a sort of "two sets in one" fashion.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.folk-rovere.org%2Fmj%2Fbilder%2Fsagbenk_02_W.jpg&hash=e137284b2ad14e33a7f81fcdd9e3b1e1f952c27f)
Sanding one of the legs. Even the double length of the legs makes for a pretty short piece.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.folk-rovere.org%2Fmj%2Fbilder%2Fsagbenk_04_w.jpg&hash=5270727e81b3fc9344f465c6ee227194bd1736ee)
The frame is then cut in two.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.folk-rovere.org%2Fmj%2Fbilder%2Fsagbenk_05_W.jpg&hash=ee6a82fb5fa8fb63f2509350c90d0653dfd8ddbf)
Sanding the legs to exact length.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.folk-rovere.org%2Fmj%2Fbilder%2Fsagbenk_06_W.jpg&hash=75abef97f2c9e7334524cb430841043a90269fb6)
Test setup of the bench.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.folk-rovere.org%2Fmj%2Fbilder%2Fsagbenk_07_w.jpg&hash=d87eac381a0b297249005b9331af2a4c5533d5d5)
Next up is diagonal bracing. A lot of angles to be sanded, but that is the next chapter!
I just learned one important thing: To make more jigs for sanding and construction. I didn't realize how many are necessary for excellent results. -- Russ
That's totally right, Russ. Even pieces that will be done only once sometimes require jigs. Reproductibility is one point, and accuracy is another one.
I like that sanding jig -- good idea!
What are you using for the chopping jig, with the slider?
Havard,
this coming along very nicely.
To make most of the parts of my mill, simple purpose jigs were extensively used.
The sawblades you treated, look very good, the last 2 series are in my opinion too heavily treated. The blades look like burned metal.
Btw. Norgwegion bands are not always dull. Last weekend, in a town close to mine, a norwegion hardmetal band Mayhem, was arrested and locked up as they wrecked their hotelroom completely. Damages in excess of Euro 5000,- plus staying costs. They were released this afternoon after the money was paid by their manager.
Jacq
Quote from: Ray Dunakin on November 15, 2009, 06:42:33 PM
I like that sanding jig -- good idea!
What are you using for the chopping jig, with the slider?
It´s the lesser used end of an vernier caliper!
Since the legs were going to bee sanded after cutting it was ok to just use a single edge razor blade and a free-hand cut.
Regards, HH
Quote from: jacq01 on November 16, 2009, 11:02:59 AM
this coming along very nicely.
To make most of the parts of my mill, simple purpose jigs were extensively used.
The sawblades you treated, look very good, the last 2 series are in my opinion too heavily treated. The blades look like burned metal.
Btw. Norgwegion bands are not always dull. Last weekend, in a town close to mine, a norwegion hardmetal band Mayhem, was arrested and locked up as they wrecked their hotelroom completely. Damages in excess of Euro 5000,- plus staying costs. They were released this afternoon after the money was paid by their manager.
Jacq
Thanks for the feedback!
I agree that the blades are somewhat too dark. It could all have been solved by blades etched in steel or nickel silver...
I would love to see some of your jigs, I have not made any real jigs for this project other than the totally overkill CNC milled corian ones:
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmjwiki.no%2Fw%2Fimages%2FJig_01.jpg&hash=427e5d61e81730bf273f5d078a448c45b587bfb4)
I am also a bit unhappy with the strength of my glue joints. My procedure for gluing is this:
1. Sand to get as good a glue surface as possible as possible
2. Remove dust with damp rag.
3. Pre glue both parts with thinned white glue. Let dry
4. Glue parts with full-strength white glue.
5. Always clamp or weigh down
Suggestions for improvement?
Regards, Håvard H
Wow impressive Corian jig! :o
I don't know if it helps re. the gluing, but I tend to use the yellow carpenters glue instead of white glue, IMO it bonds better and dries quicker.
I do have a question re. your approach to staining though....curious as to your process. I see that you stain and then cut your pieces. Seems a bit odd to me because you then have to go back in and touch-up ends, and risk the chance of having unstained areas/slivers show somewhere. You also risk loosening/softening any glue joints when/if you stain after assembly. I personally tend to cut all my pieces, stain them, and then assemble.
M
Havard,
I'll have a look around. As most are/were purpose made, many have been discarded after use. Limited life after the required amount.
Pending on amount needed I used styrene/carton/wood as a jig, much like you have done.
I'll take pictures of the concrete casting jigs and other ones I'll make.
Jacq
Quote from: marc_reusser on November 16, 2009, 01:33:23 PM
Wow impressive Corian jig! :o
I don't know if it helps re. the gluing, but I tend to use the yellow carpenters glue instead of white glue, IMO it bonds better and dries quicker.
I do have a question re. your approach to staining though....curious as to your process. I see that you stain and then cut your pieces. Seems a bit odd to me because you then have to go back in and touch-up ends, and risk the chance of having unstained areas/slivers show somewhere. You also risk loosening/softening any glue joints when/if you stain after assembly. I personally tend to cut all my pieces, stain them, and then assemble.
M
I am almost hesitant to show those corian jigs, they are just too much. But when you have unlimited access to a CNC mill and corian, such things are bound to happen!
I have read about this yellow glue in the american model press, but I havent been able to translate it into a locally available product. Have to look into it.
Regarding the staining approach, I like to stain full lenghts of stripwood. I belive this is faster, even if I have to touch up cutting ends.
I have never really thought about it , but another reason I just came up is that the ends takes stain much better than the sides, so they need far fewer layer of stains. I don´t know if that made any sense really!
Regards, Håvard H
Havard,
It does make sense...in a pragmatic way. I guess I just see it as more work, more difficult and a better chance of something going wrong. ;)
I find an advantage of staining the precut wood is also the chance for more randomness/variation among wood color, because you can leave in assorted pieces for different lenths of time, and in different shades of stain (yes, you can do this with whole pieces as well...but there the human tendency is to cut sim. pieces/parts from the same strip...so each of those will have the same coloring). The other part is that you dont have to re-sand and then touch up the faces of the pieces where you had to sand/clean-up after sanding the ends.
....just a different way. ;)
The yellow glue here is typically called/sold as "Carpenters Glue" and it is made by several mfrs. There is even one that is more brownish than yellow, that is waterproof when dry.....though I don't use this on my structures. Maybe check with local wood-working suppliers?
M
Hey Hauk,
Man I really like that Jig you made.... overkill I think not.... would work just fine for me... ;)
I am going to start back on the train stop build when I get back to LA. (looks like I will be away from home for a couple more weeks)
Mike
I use yellow "carpenters glue" also
May be Nick O will chime in and translate for us (him being a carpenter of sorts over there)
I bet we would all like to get one of those corian jigs!
Wonder if Santa has access to a CNC and some ........
-Mj
Quote from: lab-dad on November 16, 2009, 04:12:01 PM
I use yellow "carpenters glue" also
May be Nick O will chime in and translate for us (him being a carpenter of sorts over there)
I bet we would all like to get one of those corian jigs!
Wonder if Santa has access to a CNC and some ........
-Mj
What word(s) are you having problems with in particular ? Is it "carpenter" or is it "glue" , or both ? If you can be a bit more specific then I might be able to help .
Nick ( calling me a carpenter might be putting it a bit strong . More like "wood butcher" )
Quote from: Hauk on November 16, 2009, 12:31:11 PM
I am also a bit unhappy with the strength of my glue joints. My procedure for gluing is this:
Regards, Håvard H
Havard:
The reason you're having problems with glue joints is that end grain has
NO glue strength. The framing in your photograph is entirely assembled with butt joints, one of the weakest joints in wood-working. This is one of the primary joint lessons you learn as an apprentice cabinet-maker. We had it beaten into us. That's why we've developed half-lap joints, dovetail joints, mortice & tenon joints, and so on. The purpose of joint design is to overcome the inherent weakness of end grain joints in as economic a fashion as possible.
Regardless of the size of the wood involved or the glue used, end-grain has no glue strength. Think of wood grain as a bunch of fibers and channels (which is essentially what it is). When glued along the sides or face, the glue will wrap around the fibers and form a reasonably solid connection. However, when you put glue on end grain, it travels down the length of the fibers and channels away from the joint face and has nothing to grab on to relative to the joint. Any joint that relies solely on glue will be much weaker than a joint that derives its strength from glue in combination with a sound mechanical connection.
Now, in modelwork, often the pieces to be joined are small and there is no strain on the joint so you can get away with gluing end-grain joints in very small pieces. Ultimately, however, they will fail. If you need strength, such as for the floor framing, you would do well to cut rebates into the stringers for the cross members to fit into when glued. This can be done easily with a jig on a miniature table saw, such as the Preac. I published an article titled "A Sticky Subject" on this issue and the gluing method described briefly below in Issue 31 of the
Narrow Gauge & Industrial Railway Modelling Review. There are also some drawings of basic woodworking joints. It's been out-of-print for a while, so perhaps it's time to republish that piece on the blog.
If you don't want to go to that trouble, then you might try the old Ambroid/Acetone glue method. I've used this exclusively for years on model wood-frame construction. Essentially you dilute Ambroid cement in Acetone. I've found about a 40% Ambroid/60% Acetone mix seems to work best but you should experiment. The important thing is you want it thin enough to brush without building up a thick layer of cement. Then, precoat both pieces in the precise area to be joined. On end grain pieces, put on 2 or 3 coats. It will absorb into the end grain of the wood. Let it dry, then assemble the pieces into position in your jig. Once in place, flow a drop or two of straight Acetone into the assembled joint. It will quickly flow into the joint and evaporate from the outside surfaces. It will soften the inner layers of Ambroid/Acetone mix on opposing faces of the joint and effectively weld the two pieces together. This can be done with pre-stained and weathered pieces, though not pieces that have a heavy layer of paint on them in the joint areas, as long as you're careful with the Acetone. It's an old technique and one that I've found to be very reliable, quick, clean and strong as long as you work carefully. I have board-by-board plank-on-frame structure models that have been built this way that have withstood packing, shipping and several moves with no broken glue joints.
Paul
Paul,
I think I would prefer "splining" or "biscuiting" the joints......almost seems easier than the Ambroid method :P ;D ;D ;D
M
Håvard , the "scientific" name for yellow carpenter's glue is "aliphatic resin" if that helps. As for joints, Paul and our friend, Richard Christ, often have pinned and glued parts together for strength. -- Russ
Quote from: marc_reusser on November 16, 2009, 11:24:59 PM
I think I would prefer "splining" or "biscuiting" the joints......almost seems easier than the Ambroid method :P ;D ;D ;D
M
Riiiightt.... I would use biscuits but can't find a biscuit jointer small enough... ;D ;D ;D Half-blind dovetail joints are another possibility.... ;)
I forgot to mention in that post that I'm referring to the original Ambroid Liquid Cement. It's been around for decades, something of a mainstay with the flying model plane crowd (the planes, not the crowd that is). When used with this technique it's virtually invisible, unless you're really ham-fisted, quite strong and waterproof, which can be a real plus if you're going to be following up your assembly with a barrage of water based stains or washes. Any excess cement outside the joint area can be quickly removed with a little Acetone.
Paul
Quote from: finescalerr on November 17, 2009, 12:34:18 AM
Håvard , the "scientific" name for yellow carpenter's glue is "aliphatic resin" if that helps. As for joints, Paul and our friend, Richard Christ, often have pinned and glued parts together for strength. -- Russ
That's right Russ. There are several Aliphatic Resin or Polyaliphatic Resin Polymer glues on the market. Titebond is one of the more popular brands in this country. You just need to be certain you're getting one that is waterproof if any water-based stains or washes are going to be applied following assembly. Some of these glues are only water-resistant. Still, even these, will not form a strong lasting butt joint without an additional mechanical connection, be that joinery or pinning. Pinning is especially useful in situations such as bridge, trestle, turntable construction where the large timbers were bolted together on the prototype. It's a fairly simple matter to use brass or phosphor bronze pins in league with NBW castings or miniature nuts to replicate the prototype bolts while adding structural strength to the assembly.
Paul
Not much progress, but I managed to finish the saw table during the weekend.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.folk-rovere.org%2Fmj%2Fbilder%2Fsagbenk_08_w.jpg&hash=ab549371c2ba4ed813f6f57d4ba8378e3cf8c761)
I am beginning to consider my disk sander to be my most important tool. It is impossible to get good angles on stripwood any other way than to sand them to the exact angle. I cut the stripwood til approximately the correct lengt & angle using and old NWSL chopper.
We had a discussion earlier about the quality of different stripwood brands, and I expressed that I was happy with my Kappler wood. But I am getting some doubts. See the closeup on the saw table. There are some "leopard spots" that are not due to sloppy staining, but they pop right out after staining with silverwood. Annoying. If the Mt. Albert Lumber does not have this problem, I will consider a switch.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.folk-rovere.org%2Fmj%2Fbilder%2Fsagbenk_09_w.jpg&hash=e9054a8b3fa8e16a44322d73735f288942ded390)
The problem seems to be that there is some variation in the wood, in lack of a better word:
You can see it on this close-up of some untreated pieces:
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.folk-rovere.org%2Fmj%2Fuploads2%2Fstrip_02.jpg&hash=5d3bb675b43eac7b341a7a7d920eda676a6987c8)
The piece second from the left is worst affected.
Paul, maybe you can give a better explanation of what I am talking about?
But any way, I am happy to have finished the saw table.
Next up is finsihing the walls of the building.
Regards, Håvard H
PS: Anyone know what is the correct solvent for Silverwood stain?
Wow... that's some of the nastiest looking raw basswood I've seen in ages... :o It's no wonder you're having problems staining. Those leopard spots are either the ends of grain fibres, tannin deposits or a combination of both. It would appear that the stock in your photo was cut on a bias (rift sawn) or from very gnarly stock with interlocking grain. The tannin deposits are again an indicator of poor stock (at least for this purpose). Since we know that end grain absorbs more liquid along its fibres and channels (referring to the gluing method post), the same problem occurs with staining. The ends of the fibres draw in more stain than the surrounding face grain areas and appear darker. Tannin deposits can react in a similar manner depending upon the chemical makeup of the stain. There is really no solution for this as far as staining is concerned, unless you're trying to achieve a very dark color, in which case the spots ultimately blend in to the surrounding wood. Wood like you've shown in the stock photo is best used when applying a painted finish rather than a stain. Your saw table looks quite impressive. I expect when completed and detailed, the leopard spots will not be so visible. You might also be able to disguise them with future weathering, saw dust and so on.
The primary medium in Silverwood is Isopropyl Alcohol. Either that or denatured alcohol will dilute it, though it's very dilute to start with. MEK (methyl ethyl ketone) will remove some of the product if you have an area that's too dark, but not all of it as Silverwood is a penetrating stain.
Paul
Havard:
Do you have the ability to cut your own stripwood? If so you might want to consider other woods: Lime (often thought of as the European equivalent of Basswood), Holly, Pear (my personal choice) or Cherry (I believe Jacq used Cherry on his sawmill). Boxwood is another excellent wood, very dense, hard with no visible grain, machines to precise dimensions like metal, but it is extremely difficult to stain. None of these are available in scale stripwood sizes so you would have to cut your own.
Paul
An old model airplane building trick with aliphatic resin. Glue the joint with the resin and then tack it with CA. The CA will hold the structure while the resin dries. Elaborate frames can be made by tacking them together with CA then pick them up and brush the resin around the joints with an appropriate sized brush.
John
Some more progress, but I am almost hesitant to post this...
I know some of you have a problem with orange rust, but hey, what can a poor boy do when he lives in an area where corrugateted siding turns into a fiercly orange rust color?
So here goes:
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.folk-rovere.org%2Fmj%2Fbilder%2Frusttest3.jpg&hash=60a25811305696bf6d62602c78b0548571ae2240)
In the foreground my work, In the background, the family barn.
My siding should be a tad more red, but they are close enough.
Here is a small tutorial:
1. First, the Raw Builders In Scale siding was primed with Humbrol Matt Black (All other paints are Vallejo, I used Humbrol for primer as I hope it has a bit more "bite")
2. Airbrushed the siding with an even coating of Vallejo 034 Burnt Cadmium Red.
3.Mixed up a color based on 027 Orange Red with some 033 Yellowish Rust (and a few drops of a dark brown Vallejo color). Turned the air pressure down to around 0,5 bar to get a spattering coverage. Tried to hit the siding from the side, so that he tops of the corrugations received more paint than the bottoms
4. Repeated step 3, this time with 022 Light Orange as a base. Thats it.
I feel that I am on to something regarding the texture. Here is a close up that shows why I feel the "spattering" approach is the way to go:
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.folk-rovere.org%2Fmj%2Fbilder%2Frust_detalj.jpg&hash=c7841b3b67ad259a25861ca15a28ef68801c2103)
(This picture is from another roof than the one above, I just included it fo the texture)
I might try to tone down the color a bit, maybe I should try a filter or two.
Regards, Håvard H
(Ok Marc, you can open your eyes, the post is finished! ;) )
I need sunglasses. -- Russ
Håvard,
QuoteI know some of you have a problem with orange rust, but hey, what can a poor boy do when he lives in an area where corrugateted siding turns into a fiercly orange rust color?
I see Photoshop reached Norway............... ;D ;D
Humbrol no 1 primer is a good start to get a faded not corroded galvanised color.
I am surprised that the norwegian climate has such an even corrosion effect on galvanised material. The area around Bergen is well known in the car industry for the severe corrosion effects on various materials, but there the most materials turned a very light grey due to the galvanic action of the zinc in the alloys.
Jacq
I call that grain "speckle grain". I don't use pieces with it if the speckeled side shows for the very reason you see. Mt. Albert wood occasionally has some in each bag, but mostly not. It has been something to watch for from all basswood suppliers over the years. I find Midwest has the least problems with it, but they don't have the largest selection of O scale wood, so you have to use fractional sizes or cut your own from sheets (blah).
Quote from: jacq01 on January 28, 2010, 02:28:26 PM
I see Photoshop reached Norway............... ;D ;D
Here is another one:
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.folk-rovere.org%2Fmj%2Fbilder%2Fnaust_01_w.jpg&hash=c0a8bab339c62b44278df832a943300ed5babc1a)
Scouts honour, I have only used PS for getting the colours as neutral as possible!
Regards, Håvard
Looks like my rust has left most people speechless, probably for all the wrong reasons!
But I really don´t feel it looks so extreme when put in context (the finished building):
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.folk-rovere.org%2Fmj%2Fbilder%2Fsagbruk_08.jpg&hash=0f35f6429f89dbf136a25b235de5af5feb4898eb)
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.folk-rovere.org%2Fmj%2Fbilder%2Fsagbruk_07.jpg&hash=1439b3b54942835be64a54b20f3fec7fd2e708a4)
When the scenery is finished I will probably give the roof a very light dusting with the basic earth color in the scene.
Regards, Håvard H
I don't need sunglasses for this photo! -- Russ
Quote from: finescalerr on January 29, 2010, 01:44:55 PM
I don't need sunglasses for this photo! -- Russ
Hey, we´re making progress!
Regards, Håvard H.
Quote from: Hauk on January 29, 2010, 02:02:57 PM
Hey, we´re making progress!
Regards, Håvard H.
Yes we are. Here are a couple of shots of the saw itself. Some NBWs, a drive belt and a cosmetic electric motor and we are almost there. The hardware that guides the cutting is still missing, but I will probably scratchbuild something loosely based on drawings and pictures.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.folk-rovere.org%2Fmj%2Fbilder%2Fsagbenk_01.jpg&hash=596d2894f22186433e7a30aff1c858667bdd2473)
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.folk-rovere.org%2Fmj%2Fbilder%2Fsagbenk_04.jpg&hash=e35af5ff9aceef1c3ab43fc4034d5ee1b731bd62)
After searching the scrapbox for a suitable drivewheel, I realised it would take less tie to make one from scratch. I guess making parts like that was why I got me a small lathe in the first place! Looks a bit crude this close up, but at normal viewing distance it is OK.
The sawmill had an apperance in a Norwegian Modelling magazine, so I threw together a little scenery for the occasion:
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.folk-rovere.org%2Fmj%2Fbilder%2Fsaga_01.jpg&hash=77285e8a7cbb7a3f14b2bf91c4e9f985f8f94717)
Since the reader of this forum is more sharpeyed than most, I probably do not need to mention that the last photo was taken before the saw got it latest details. The sawblade was just glued to bench temporarily. I felt the sawblade in silouette against the window adds a bit of interest to the picture.
Hauk,
Great to see you back posting and working on this. Coming along nicely. What did you use for the steel color on the shafts and the bearing-blocks?
Marc
Very clean work, Håvard. Don't wait so long before tackling the next step. -- Russ
Quote from: marc_reusser on May 16, 2010, 12:24:42 AM
Hauk,
Great to see you back posting and working on this. Coming along nicely. What did you use for the steel color on the shafts and the bearing-blocks?
Marc
Thanks, Marc!
The brass parts were blackened with Birchwood Casey Brass Black. I buy this from an English online store, Eileens Emporium.http://www.eileensemporium.com (http://www.eileensemporium.com).
By the way, when using blackening fluids the metal parts often goes black almost immidiately, but when I rinse the parts, most of the black comes off again.
It seems to me that by diluting the solutions 1:1 with distilled water, you don´t get as much "soot" buildup, and a more durable finish. The process is somewhat slower, but I dont see that as a problem. Anyone else that dilutes theis blackening fluids?
I agree, nice to some progress! I always use full strength blackening, and I often see the same loss after rinsing. Never thought of diluting, but I know that older stuff colors differently.
I just re-read this thread as I remembered there were some discussion about my rust-painting efforts. It was a minor shock to see my first effort again! I remembered that I posted an image of some rather bright rusted siding, but not that it was almost fluorescent! Man, what was I thinking? This must be one of the greatest examples of wishful thinking in the history of scale modeling...
Anyway, the reason for reopening this thread is that I found some nice sawmills during my summer holiday. Here is a an example:
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.folk-rovere.org%2Fmj%2Fbilder%2Fsag2_w.jpg&hash=b3ee65c32c5da926cd07f1ce60b5e0e6fde02bf3)
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.folk-rovere.org%2Fmj%2Fbilder%2Fsag_w.jpg&hash=ad18d960dbbaa5bc906b080f105f5c8513379736)
Burchwood Casey Brass Black is available at any well stocked American gun store which also caters to those who repair and restore old guns. I find that a quick dip in HCl followed by a rinse makes the brass black work quite well.
If I saw rust like that on a model I would think the builder made a mistake! -- Russ
This is nice and its give me a few ideas for my next model - just keep it coming lovely workmanship.
Barney
Wow, I don't think I've ever seen rust like that before. Almost looks like paint or something.
Quote from: finescalerr on July 20, 2014, 12:33:48 PM
If I saw rust like that on a model I would think the builder made a mistake! -- Russ
I totally understand that!
I showed my finished sawmill to a non-modelling friend, and he asked why I had painted the roof orange.
I am not claiming that my painted roof is that good, but it is in fact less brightly orange than many of the prototypes I have seen.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.folk-rovere.org%2Fmj%2Fbilder%2Fsaga_01.jpg&hash=77285e8a7cbb7a3f14b2bf91c4e9f985f8f94717)
But those brightly orange roofs are seen close to the coast, and corrugated roofing in more inland towns rust to a much more brown/reddish color. My friend lives in an inland town, and brightly orange-colored corrugated roofs is not something he is used to see.
It it is true that modeling the prototypical but unusual can result in unbelievable models.
Your mill looks good! -- Russ
Quote from: Hauk on May 16, 2010, 01:06:03 AM
The brass parts were blackened with Birchwood Casey Brass Black. It seems to me that by diluting the solutions 1:1 with distilled water, you don´t get as much "soot" buildup, and a more durable finish. The process is somewhat slower, but I dont see that as a problem.
I agree, the the steel color on the shafts looks perfect; I didn't thought they were made from brass!
Cool project too, congrats!
Peter
Hauk,
concerning the roof you maybe could add some of the remaining zinc blotches as seen in prototype pictures. This would add some variety and maybe could make the coloring somewhat more "readable" to be rust. For the non modelers.
By the way that's an interesting prototype. Reduced to the minimum and a somewhat coarse built. It seems to be still in use?
Cheers,
Volker
Quote from: Hydrostat on July 22, 2014, 11:53:23 PM
Hauk,
concerning the roof you maybe could add some of the remaining zinc blotches as seen in prototype pictures. This would add some variety and maybe could make the coloring somewhat more "readable" to be rust. For the non modelers.
By the way that's an interesting prototype. Reduced to the minimum and a somewhat coarse built. It seems to be still in use?
Cheers,
Volker
I have indeed been thinking about adding a few zinc blotches, but I fear that I will end up repainting the whole darn roof... I have to do some experimenting/practice pieces to see if I can achieve better results.
The prototype shown is still in use. Saws like this are usually built in connection with a farm. Mostly they produce lumber for the farms own and their neighbours use. The prototype shown is a bit larger than my model it has two saw lines. It also have a little outhouse that I am fairly certain houses a small cyclone separator.
My model is of the smallest, most basic type. It is a very generic type that can be fund all over Norway.