Hello modeling friends
As promised, today I would like to start the report on my current project: a working Hulett ore loader in 1/32th scale.
Hulett 001.jpg
Hulett 002.jpg
(Fotos: Library of Congress)
The starting point for building a scale model is not too good.
The last two of these machines were dismantled on Whiskey Island in Cleveland in 2000 and have been quietly rusting away ever since. All the other machines were scrapped before that. Unfortunately, they were not documented in detail beforehand. Thus, an important testimony to technical history is about to be lost for good.
The Committee to Save Cleveland's Huletts has been trying for years to save the remaining machines. But it is more than uncertain whether they will be saved at all and in what form.
Hulett 003.jpg
(Foto: Conrail Photo Archive)
Hulett 004.JPG
(Foto: Goole Earth)
For measuring and documenting, the remains are of course not accessible to me from Switzerland.
However, I have found about 100 original plans of the manufacturer on the internet and other sources. But they date between 1901 and 1948, so they depict different machines and different technical designs. Moreover, there is no complete set of drawings of any of the assemblies.
I also found about 60 high-resolution digitised photos. Unfortunately, these photos were not taken with the eye of a model maker at that time. Nevertheless, some of them show interesting details.
Due to the documentation situation I decided to rebuild one of the machines from Whiskey Island, Cleveland.
Hulett 005.jpg
(Plan: Wellman Engineering Co.)
If any of you have further documentation on the machines, I would be very grateful if you would share it with me. However, I have already looked at and evaluated everything that can be found on the Internet.
The prototype| Manufacturer | Wellman Seaver Morgan Co. |
| Location | Whiskey Island, Cleveland
|
| Year of construction | 1912 |
| Bucket capacity | 17 tn |
| Lenght | 32.9 m / 108 ft. |
| Width | 5.8 m / 19 ft. |
| High (leg retracted) | 29.3 m / 96 ft. |
| Weight | Approx. 500 t / 550 tn |
| Power supply | 250 volts DC |
| Drives power | 930 HP (8 motors) |
| Cycle time | <60 s |
| Unloading capacity | 900 t/h / 1.000 tn/h |
| Operators | 3 |
The operation of ore loaders is well illustrated in the following 4 graphs.
(Source: Historic American Engineering Record, National Park Service, delineated by Hardlines Design Company, 2000)Hulett 006.jpg
Hulett 007.jpg
Hulett 008.jpg
Hulett 009.jpg
I will tell you more about the history and technology of the Huletts as the project progresses.
Bernhard
Good heavens Bernhard, you have quite a project ahead of you. It will be interesting to follow your progress and having you fill us in on your methods. Best wishes!
After reading all of that, I have decided that if I ever wanted a model of a Hulett ore unloader I would ask you to design and build it! -- Russ
I'm sitting at the edge of my chair with a big bucket of popcorn.
Can't wait for the next update!
Awesome project!
Hi Bernard.
What a great project have always loved the Hullet ore loaders,the operators ride must have been bifferent to say the least.
On U Tube there are some great clips on there operation.
Yes like the rest have got a big cold drink and some popcorn lined up.
Cheers
Just wow! Epic!
Waouh ! Great project ahead. it's gonna be wonderful.
Thank you all for your enthusiastic and encouraging comments. Of course, this puts a little bit of pressure on me now!
The model
Here is the current state of the design.
Hulett 0010.jpg
Hulett 0011.jpg
Up to the height of the main girders, the 3D model is complete. Actually, now it would be the turn of the trolley. But I am still waiting for original plans, which are archived in the library of Bowling Green State University. The archivist has kindly agreed to digitise some of the plans for me.
In the meantime, I have therefore already started on the construction of the swalking beam, for which I have more documentation.
I build the model from bottom to top, i.e. the first assembly is the truck.
This original drawing is from a later machine, but shows the principle of the whole truck with the drive:
Hulett 0012.jpg
(Drawing: Wellman Engineering Co.) - The central drive motor mounted on top of the left side of the main girder.
- The long drive shafts running along the main girder and then down the front and rear tower.
- The short cardan shafts between the drive shafts and the trucks.
- The driven and the non-driven trucks.
Two important changes have to be considered for Whiskey Island:
- In the front and in the rear only the two outer trucks are driven.
- In the front there are only four trucks.
A few snapshots of the scrap on Whiskey Island shed some more light on the darkness, ...
Hulett 0013.jpg
Hulett 0014.jpg
Hulett 0015.jpg
(Photos: cleveland.com)
... and a still from a video.
Hulett 0016.jpg
This made it possible to model and draw the truck quite faithfully.
Hulett 0017.jpg
Bernhard
Bernhard, This project is monumental! Just the research is huge.
The results will be fantastic.
As long as you are doing all the research, planning, design, and component fabrication for one ... why not build 12? -- ssuR
Bill, actually several hundred hours have already gone into research and design.
Russ, actually there were four Huletts on Whiskey Island. But I'm happy when I get a model done, as long as I can still get up in the morning and know who I am and if so when.
Bernhard
Bernhard,
I'll be following this very closely. On one of the other forums, I'm on way there was the beginning of a joint effort by several modelers to build an HO scale version of a Hulett Unloader. I got very interested and purchased a set of plans from an individual by the last name of Rabbitt if I recollect correctly through Sylvan Models. This quite a number of years ago. I looked to for the drawings today but could not find them. They're buried somewhere in my basement. And you're using one of my favorite building material, brass.
Bernd
Thanks for your hint, Bernd. In fact, I have been able to find the drawings by Mike Rabbit for some time. Apparently there has also been a CD with photos. Do you know where I can still get them?
Bernhard
Well then, let's take a look over the model maker's shoulder and see how he makes the most important parts. First, however, some raw material has to be procured. In the following picture you can see some of it.
Hulett 0018.JPG
Let's start with the production of the bodies for the nine trucks.
A brass block is milled over on all sides.
Hulett 0019.JPG
The large radii are milled on the manual milling machine.
Hulett 0020.JPG
The small radii are milled on the CNC router.
Hulett 0021.JPG
Then the axle holes are drilled and reamed.
Hulett 0022.JPG
Next, some parts have to be milled out of 1 mm and 2 mm thick brass sheet. By the way, these were the first parts I made on the newly acquired CNC router. But I had to learn the hard way. Wrong tools and too high feed rate led to the tool breaking twice in a short space of time.
Hulett 0023.JPG
Hulett 0024.JPG
Now two bearing flanges are soldered onto each body. Because this requires a lot of heat to be brought into the solid body, this is done with a soldering torch.
Hulett 0025.JPG
Now the nine bodies are finished.
Hulett 0026.JPG
Hulett 0027.JPG
A somewhat simpler part is the bearing plate. Here, too, a brass block is first milled to size on all sides.
Hulett 0028.JPG
Then the flaps are milled out, ...
Hulett 0029.JPG
... rounded with a quadrant milling cutter and drilled.
Hulett 0030.JPG
And another part is finished
Hulett 0031.JPG
Interesting parts are the dirt deflectors. This is attached to the outer trucks with two bent T-sections.
Hulett 0032.JPG
Since I can't bend the small T-sections like this, I mill them out of a 2 mm thick brass plate on the CNC router.
First the parts are machined from one side to the middle.
Hulett 0033.JPG
Then the plate is reversed and the parts are finished. Two pins ensure that the plate is correctly positioned for this operation.
Hulett 0034.JPG
Then two of the T-sections are soldered to a flat material.
Hulett 0035.JPG
Now only the plate has to be mounted.
Hulett 0036.JPG
Bernhard
Wow
What Lawrence said.
Well, that probably took about half an hour. What will you do for the rest of the day?
Russ
Bernhard,
First of all, congratulations on the new CNC milling machine!
That's a great project - I love such contributions.
I will follow you here with pleasure!
Nice work!!
Great to see this coming together!
Always a joy to see another update to this spectacular project!
What kind of CNC-router did you get, but the way?
Thank you all for your interest.
Russ, the rest of the day I will spend with a few bikini beauties, drink beer and think a bit about how to proceed.
Hauk, I have worked in mechanical engineering for a long time and therefore know pretty well how such a machine should be built. Unfortunately, most hobby machines do not even come close to meeting this requirement, or they are far too expensive. I have therefore bought a self-built machine. It's not perfect in terms of craftsmanship, but it meets my mechanical requirements.
Bernhard
Quote from: Bernhard on February 15, 2023, 08:57:26 AMThanks for your hint, Bernd. In fact, I have been able to find the drawings by Mike Rabbit for some time. Apparently there has also been a CD with photos. Do you know where I can still get them?
Bernhard
Hi Bernhard,
I have no idea where you would be able to find the CD. I did not even know there was a CD available. Sorry.
I will be following this project closely. I'm fascinated by your machine work. I have two CNC machines, a Sherline and a ROBO router/engraver. I only work in HO (1:87) scale so these machines suffice for me.
Bernd
Quote from: Bernhard on February 19, 2023, 12:12:24 PMHauk, I have worked in mechanical engineering for a long time and therefore know pretty well how such a machine should be built. Unfortunately, most hobby machines do not even come close to meeting this requirement, or they are far too expensive. I have therefore bought a self-built machine. It's not perfect in terms of craftsmanship, but it meets my mechanical requirements.
But you are also using a manual Wabeco mill, right?
Bernd, show us more of your work!
Hauk, yes, I have been working with the Wabeco for some time and I am very satisfied with it. However, there are many parts in the current project that you can hardly make on a manual machine. That's why I decided to buy a CNC machine.
Bernhard
Can those with CNC machines please chime in on the +/- of theirs. The field is moving so fast that some of the older ones are outdated.
That's not so easy to answer, Lawton. It always depends on what you want to do with the machine and what you are willing to invest.
But I can try to show you what makes a good CNC milling machine from my point of view.
Stability
The more unstable the machine, the more the tool vibrates. This shortens the tool life and the quality of the surface becomes poor.
In our area you can often find offers for self-built machines made of wood. This does not work at all!
Stable guides
Preferably pre-stressed profiled guide ways. Everything else is not recommended, e.g. round guides that are not supported over the entire length, plain bearings or guides on rollers.
Drive of the axles
Recommendation: ball screw with preloaded nut. This has no backlash. A trapezoidal screw, on the other hand, always has some backlash.
Of course, the spindle must be correctly mounted (radial-axial bearing on the locating bearing side, radial bearing on the non-locating bearing side).
The worst thing I have seen in this regard: the spindle is mounted in two plastic plain bearings and fixed directly to the motor with a bushing. This is the perfect self-destruction mechanism for the motor. The machining forces act directly on the bearings of the motor, which are in no way designed for such loads.
Motor mounting
If possible, motors should be mounted directly on the spindle with a coupling. Belt drives worsen the positioning accuracy. Very bad are for example Y-axis drives with 2 spindles, one motor and one long drive belt.
Milling spindle
Preferably with water cooling for good heat dissipation. With air cooling you have to keep an eye on the temperature, because heat expansion of spindle and tool lead to errors in Z-direction.
Modular control
Separate power stages for all axes simplify troubleshooting and repair.
And finally, of course, all axes must be precisely aligned, then it will work.
Bernhard
The rear casing of the angular gear is made from a piece of pipe.
Hulett 0037.JPG
The recess for the bevel gear bearing is milled out.
Hulett 0038.JPG
The cover is made on the CNC milling machine.
Hulett 0039.JPG
Then the parts are soldered together.
Hulett 0040.JPG
The bearing for the bevel gear is mounted and four more parts are ready.
Hulett 0041.JPG
The front casing is actually made of sheet metal. But it is relatively difficult to bend it to fit exactly, so I make it out of solid material.
First, a brass block is roughly hollowed out.
Hulett 0042.JPG
Then the inner contour is milled on the CNC machine. To prevent the part from being deformed in the vice, I leave 0.8 mm of wall thickness. This is very oversized, but you won't see it on the finished part.
Hulett 0043.JPG
For the re-milling of the outer contour I first have to build a small clamping device.
Hulett 0044.JPG
Hulett 0045.JPG
The inner wall is milled out of 0.3 mm sheet metal.
Hulett 0046.JPG
Finally, the brackets are soldered on with the resistance soldering device.
Hulett 0047.JPG
The finished parts:
Hulett 0048.JPG
Now I have to get into series production: I have to turn 36 steel wheels. Repetitive tasks have never been my thing, but I have to get through them.
First one side is faced, then the running groove is cut.
Hulett 0049.JPG
Since I can't cut such parts on my lathe, I cut them off the bar with the circular saw.
Hulett 0050.JPG
After 12 hours of work, 36 pre-machined wheels are ready for the next operations.
Hulett 0051.JPG
But how can the wheels be clamped for further processing? This is not possible with the normal three-jaw chuck.
I therefore have to make special additional jaws first.
Hulett 0052.jpg
I turn three rings that can be put on the jaws of the three-jaw chuck without any clearance.
They are pre-machined from behind on the milling machine.
Hulett 0053.JPG
The rings are put on the chuck, clamped against a disc and secured with stud bolts.
Now the face can be turned over first.
Hulett 0054.JPG
Then the clamping diameter is turned out.
Hulett 0055.JPG
With this I can clamp the wheels on the running surfaces, then face the second surface and make the axle hole. Clamping on the running surface ensures that the axle bore runs exactly round.
Hulett 0056.JPG
Now the circumferential groove is milled on both sides with a torus cutter. The cutter has a diameter of 5 mm and an edge radius of 1 mm.
Hulett 0057.JPG
Since I want to conduct electricity to the model via the rails, all wheels still have to be provided with an insulating sleeve made of plastic.
Hulett 0058.JPG
Normally I don't count my working hours, because it's all just a hobby. But here I made an exception: for the production of 36 wheels I spent about 42 hours.
Bernhard
Well, that was quick, simple, and easy. What's next? -- Russ
AH Gasp -Just took the tablets and a dose of Oxygen Was going to come out from under my Rock - But second thoughts I stay here
Barney
Absolutely fascinating!
Bernhard, It is very satisfying to read about all the thinking and preparations you do in a matter-of-fact way that shows the depth of knowledge you have about the materials, equipment and processes you are working with.
How much is that monster going to WEIGH when completed???
Very interesting concept of holding the wheels in the lathe. That is on the order of a "pot chuck". I just love the metal work that's being done on this forum. Very enjoyable and educational.
Bernd
Bernhard,
these are just great posts! Thanks for the detailed documentation of the individual steps :)
Impressive and Amazing but way beyond me - I will just continue with my little bits Evergreen strips and Plastic Card - with hope that one day I might Grow up !!!
Barney
Bernhard, I'm deeply impressed, starting from your research to execution. Not sure, if I mentioned that before: an electric narrow gauge switching engine seems to be preserved at J&L Narrow Gauge Railroad. Their Website (https://youngstownsteel.org/) doesn't give useful information but you can see it in numerous videos here: https://www.youtube.com/@YoungstownSteelHeritage/about (https://www.youtube.com/@YoungstownSteelHeritage/about).
Cheers,
Volker
Very Interesting site ref to Youngstown Steel Heritage
Thanks
Barney
Thanks Russ, Barney, Ray, Bill, Hauk, Bernd, Frithjof and Volker.
Hauk:
I think the finished model will weigh somewhere between 50 and 100 kg. I can only say exactly when the construction is complete.
Volker:
That's an interesting find. Of course the shunt engines belong to the ore unloaders, and I will also rebuild at least one.
I didn't know that the locomotive was moved from the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania to the Youngstown Steel Heritage Museum. But nice to read that it will be restored to working condition.
Here you can see number 3, waiting to be put into service.
Hulett 0059.jpg
(Photo: Library of Congress)
Locomotive No. 3 was built by Baldwin in June 1912 for the Pennsylvania Railroad's ore unloading facility on Whiskey Island, Ohio. It was powered by 250 volts DC, which it drew from a 3rd and 4th rail located between the running rails.
Gauge 3'-6.5" (1'079 mm).
More about this later when I describe the construction of the model.
Bernhard
This entire project is just fascinating. The engineers weren't fooling around when they designed the unloaders and electric locos. -- Russ
Electrified rails seems so dangerous to me. I would think there'd be a high risk of people coming into contact with the power rail and getting fried.
Fantastic work.
I just purchased a small lathe and have been learning how to use it. It has been rewarding as I have been able to make parts totally unatainable any other way. Don't think I'll ever graduate to CNC however. But it's a joy to see what you and others with this kind of machinery can achieve.
Quote from: Ray Dunakin on March 14, 2023, 11:20:42 PMElectrified rails seems so dangerous to me. I would think there'd be a high risk of people coming into contact with the power rail and getting fried.
I think the inner power rail is completely covered with a wooden housing, there's just the small gap for the collector. Of course maintenance of the covers is a topic. But overhead wiring is dangerous, too. Every year there are accidents with (mostly unauthorized) people climbing cars and getting to close to the wiring. You even don't need to touch it to have a flash over.
Did I get it right that there's a lateral mounted and swiveling knuckle coupler for the standard gauge cars?
Hello Bernhard,
Here is a color image generated by AI - you can imagine the atmosphere quite well:
Hulett_0059 (fspg2)
(https://www.buntbahn.de/fotos/data/8340/medium/Hulett_0059.jpg) (https://www.buntbahn.de/fotos/showphoto.php?photo=134061)
(Photo: Library of Congress)-color by AI
Thank you Russ, Ray, Stuart, Volker und Frithjof.
Ray and Volker:
Here you can see a cross section of the Shunt Engines track layout.
Hulett 0060.JPG
(Image from The Electrical Journal: Car Handling on Ore Docks)
The power rails were indeed protected from above. However, I wonder if ore pellets didn't get through the gaps at the sides and jam the pantographs, or worse, cause a short circuit. You can see from photos that the whole floor under the Huletts was covered with spilled ore.
The shunt engines had outrigger arms on both sides that could be swung in and out with compressed air, with which they pressed on the rear of the ore hoppers.
Hulett 0061.jpg
Stuart:
I'm only self-taught too, and many an expert will probably shake their head occasionally when reading my thread. But then, one learns quickly with the challenges.
Frithjof:
Thanks for this picture, I like it!
Bernhard
I really like the look of those little electric shunt locos. Very funky and unusual.
Thanks Ray.
Now back to making the last parts for the trucks.
First I have to make four taverses, in which two of the trucks are pendulum-mounted.
Hulett 0062.JPG
Hulett 0063.JPG
Hulett 0064.JPG
Hulett 0065.JPG
And with that, I can finally assemble the first chassis for a test run.
Hulett 0066.JPG
The last parts to be made are the cardan joints.
The center parts are pre-turned first.
Hulett 0067.JPG
Then it's off to the CNC milling machine for the milling of the outer contour.
Hulett 0068.JPG
This is what the semi-finished parts look like.
Hulett 0069.JPG
Then they are slit ...
Hulett 070.JPG
... and finally drilled.
Hulett 0071.JPG
And these are the necessary parts for a cardan joint.
Hulett 0072.JPG
For priming and painting the parts, I use industrial paints this time, considering the large surfaces on the model.
Hulett 0073.JPG
The primer contains solvents. It can be applied very well with the airbrush after dilution and adheres well to the glass bead blasted surfaces.
Hulett 0074.JPG
I chose RAL 7046 Telegrey matt as the top coat. It is not easy to clearly identify the colour of the Huletts on the few colour photos available. However, it was certainly a dark grey on Whiskey Island. The paint is water-based and apparently quite finely pigmented, it covers well.
The front two parts have already been slightly weathered once, which gives them a more natural look right away.
Hulett 0075.JPG
Now all parts of the first assembly are ready for mounting.
Bernhard
Most satisfactory. -- Russ
I might repeat myself, but this is literally next level stuff. In fact, I doubt there is a level above this, but if there is anywhere I will be proven wrong, it is on this forum.
The next level would have a working internal combustion engine powering the truck providing maintenance to the finished ore unloader.
Amazing, simply amazing! --- Stuart
clipart1859649.png
Thanks Russ, Hauk, Lawton and Stuart.
So that's all the parts for a driven trucks now.
Hulett 0076.JPG
I actually need a small press to press the wheels onto the axles. Since I don't have one, I have to use the quill of the milling machine for this purposes.
Hulett 0077.JPG
With this, I can quickly put the first truck on the wheels.
Hulett 0078.JPG
Then the complete drive shaft is attached.
Hulett 0079.JPG
Unfortunately things go wrong sometimes. As you can see in the sectional drawing, the axle is supported by two small ball bearings.
Hulett 0080.JPG
During the assembly I forgot the lower bearing of one of the drive shafts. For the sake of simplicity I did not pinned the bevel gear and the cardan joint to the axle as drawn, but glued them on. With Loctite 648 high strength. Glues absolutely bomb-proof, even when it's not supposed to!
That was not good at all! The glue is temperature resistant up to 175 °C. To get the whole thing apart again, I had to heat one of the glued joints to about 200 °C. So I hung the cardan joint in a glass of water to dissipate the unwanted heat.
Hulett 0081.JPG
Then I used the gas burner to heat up the axle and the bevel gear mercilessly.
And it actually worked. I was able to knock the axle out of the bevel wheel. And except for the upper bearing, which I replaced to be on the safe side, I was able to reuse all the parts. Even the paintwork survived the procedure.
Now I just have to mount the intermediate shaft with the crown wheel and the pinion.
Hulett 0082.JPG
Hulett 0083.JPG
These are the parts for one of the non-driven trucks.
Hulett 0084.JPG
Before the wheels can be mounted, the electric pickups have to be attached to the underside.
Hulett 0085.JPG
And these are the finished trucks.
Hulett 0086.JPG
Hulett 0087.JPG
Hulett 0088.JPG
Hulett 0089.JPG
This assembly consists of about 670 parts and weighs 2.3 kg.
The first raw material for the next assembly is already cut. So it will continue soon, stay tuned!
Bernhard
One word: Superb. -- Russ
2 words Amazing workmanship
Barney
Can't find any words good enough to express how good that all is!
Holy cow, that is some really impressive work!
Thank you all for your interest, which of course spurs me on.
Rivets, yes or noOne important question still needs to be clarified: as you can see from the photos and original drawings, the machines are held together by thousands and thousands of rivets.
Hulett 0090.jpg
(Photo: cleveland.com)This was common practice at that time, autogenous and electric welding was only used industrially after about 1910.
But this is a real challenge for the 1/35th scale modeller. I know of four methods of replication that more or less come into question.
1. use of model rivets
Could be used everywhere where the rivets are only visible from one side. However, they cost about 1.20 Swiss francs per 10 pieces. Just calculate what that means for thousands and thousands of rivets. Not to mention the time needed to drill the holes and insert the rivets.
2. pseudo-rivets made of brass wire
Frithjof has just shown us this, and I have also used it successfully on the Wilford Power Shovel. The process is cheaper than using model rivets, but still more time consuming.
3. etching
Lawrence has shown us this process in perfection for his scale last time. However, it is probably less suitable for 1/35th scale because
- Most of the rivets are ¾", so they have a head height of 0.4 mm in the model. This height would have to be etched away on all surfaces.
- The rivet heads remain as a cylinder instead of a hemisphere. Presumably this effect is clearly visible in 1:35.
- There are many riveted angles and channels on the machine. I don't know if you can etch angles and similar profiles at all.
- If you can't etch them yourself, it will be quite expensive for the expected number of parts.
4. punch rivets
Drill small holes in the back of the sheet. Then the material is pressed forward into a die with a rounded punch.
The main problem I see here is the deformation of the sheet. Since I sometimes have very large or long parts with many rivets, they will stretch uncontrollably in all directions.
Long story short:
I decided not to reproduce the rivets due to time and financial considerations. I think the model will still look good.
However, I would be interested in your opinion. Do you know of any other methods that lead to good results with reasonable effort?
Bernhard
I remember a company that offered rivet decals, raised domes on clear decal film in a variety of sizes. That brings up four questions: Are they still in business? Do they offer rivets appropriate to your needs? Do they look good? What is the manufacturer's name? -- Russ
Berhard,
Archer Fine Transfers use to make rivet decals in a variety of sizes and patterns. The 3D deals were tiny dots of black resin printed onto decal film.They are no longer made. I don't know if you could still find a source for some, but I think the cost would be too much for what you need and the rivets are somewhat fragile and can be scraped of if the model is handled heavily.
I used them for a double row of staggered rivets across the middle of a tender (HO scale) and thought they looked acceptable.
tender rivets.jpeg
MicroScale makes rivet decals, but I have heard modelers describe them as 'irregular blobs of resin on decal film".
I have added a few rivets to models with a technique I developed which is like rivet decals without decal film:
1. Make tiny dimples to locate exactly where each rivet head witll be.
2. Mix a small batch of JB Weld epoxy and picking up a tiny amount of it with the tip of a fine needle.
3. Lower the needle point until the epoxy - but not the needle - touches the dimple.
4. WHEN you make a mistake you can quickly wipe off the epoxy and try again.
The arrow heads point to vertical colums of rivet heads I added to an HO flatcar to match the size and spacing of the rest of the rivets on the car.
You will become crazier than I am if you thiink about using that technique on your project!!!
(Click on the photo below to enlarge the image).
Thanks Russ and Bill. In fact, I bought such decals some time ago for testing. They are certainly usable for N and H0, but definitely too small for 1:32. And of course they are really fragile.
Bernhard
I'd like to encourage you to use the wire-method. I did it at the Oester bridge and found it to be less time consuming than I was afraid of: https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/index.php?topic=2257.msg61231#msg61231 (https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/index.php?topic=2257.msg61231#msg61231). This is going to be an absolutely outstanding model and you may regret making that simplification.
Quote from: Bernhard on April 12, 2023, 08:53:12 AMThank you all for your interest, which of course spurs me on.
Rivets, yes or no
One important question still needs to be clarified: as you can see from the photos and original drawings, the machines are held together by thousands and thousands of rivets.
I know of four methods of replication that more or less come into question.
1. use of model rivets
Could be used everywhere where the rivets are only visible from one side. However, they cost about 1.20 Swiss francs per 10 pieces. Just calculate what that means for thousands and thousands of rivets. Not to mention the time needed to drill the holes and insert the rivets.
2. pseudo-rivets made of brass wire
Frithjof has just shown us this, and I have also used it successfully on the Wilford Power Shovel. The process is cheaper than using model rivets, but still more time consuming.
3. etching
Lawrence has shown us this process in perfection for his scale last time. However, it is probably less suitable for 1/35th scale because
- Most of the rivets are ¾", so they have a head height of 0.4 mm in the model. This height would have to be etched away on all surfaces.
- The rivet heads remain as a cylinder instead of a hemisphere. Presumably this effect is clearly visible in 1:35.
- There are many riveted angles and channels on the machine. I don't know if you can etch angles and similar profiles at all.
- If you can't etch them yourself, it will be quite expensive for the expected number of parts.
4. punch rivets
Drill small holes in the back of the sheet. Then the material is pressed forward into a die with a rounded punch.
The main problem I see here is the deformation of the sheet. Since I sometimes have very large or long parts with many rivets, they will stretch uncontrollably in all directions.
Long story short:
I decided not to reproduce the rivets due to time and financial considerations. I think the model will still look good.
However, I would be interested in your opinion. Do you know of any other methods that lead to good results with reasonable effort?
Well Bernhard, that's a LOT of rivets.
Of course the model would look better with, but 'reasonable effort' is always a consideration as time is not infinite.
For completeness though I can add some other methods:
- Punch them in styrene sheet. Then slice them off the surface and glue them on your project. More of a technique for restoring lost rivets in smaller scales. Might be easier than Bill's epoxy technique.
- Make them from styrene rod fitted to drilled holes. A bit of heat domes the heads nicely. Slaters used to make a styrene rod that appeared to be fibre reinforced that was good for this. I did roofing nails this way on a couple of things.
- 3D print them. Very viable in 1:32, but you still need to drill all of the holes. I've done rivets and various NBW arrangements. Of course Grandt line sell such things in moulded styrene, but that gets expensive.
If you decided to etch them, you could just do the doubling /washer plates, which would reduce cost. Etching 0.8mm material to get 0.4mm rivets would look OK, but there would be some clean up of all of the edges to do and material that thick would be quite expensive. You could do angles as two flats. You can also use etching to make the guide dimples for punching. That would take longer, but you should be able to get better form and you could use thinner, cheaper, sheet.
This project has a lot of repeated similar elements. It might be possible to make up template/moulds in the form of a perforated sheet. This could be clamped to the work and the rivets formed with epoxy in a similar fashion to Bill's suggestion, but far easier. This would be very workable, I think, IF you can make the template sufficiently non-stick to peel away once the epoxy is set, and if there is no bleed. You can get thin silicone rubber and PTFE sheet that could be tried. They might need backing up with something more rigid (and making clean through holes might be tricky). RTV rubber is another possibility. A through hole is good as you could apply the epoxy from the outside and clean all rivets to the same height by wiping. A thicker mould might be OK if you had a whisker on the end of each rivet to release excess resin. If moulding, you could 3d print the patterns, which would give a good head form. Very easy to come up with ideas - making them work on your project is another ball game. Shame I don't have any RTV on hand - it would be interesting to try.
Thanks Volker for the encouragement, and thanks Lawrence for the interesting suggestions.
After weighing the pros and cons of the various methods, I could at best imagine recreating the rivets from styrene. Like Volker, I could rework the head with a form cutter. The time required for this would be less than for rivets made of brass wire. Drilling the holes is a smaller problem. That's done by the CNC mill while I do something else.
Interesting, I'll have to think a bit before making a final decision.
Bernhard
Quote from: Bernhard on April 12, 2023, 02:01:26 PMThanks Volker for the encouragement, and thanks Lawrence for the interesting suggestions.
After weighing the pros and cons of the various methods, I could at best imagine recreating the rivets from styrene. Like Volker, I could rework the head with a form cutter. The time required for this would be less than for rivets made of brass wire. Drilling the holes is a smaller problem. That's done by the CNC mill while I do something else.
Interesting, I'll have to think a bit before making a final decision.
Bernhard
If drilling the holes is no problem then I would advocate 3d printed rivets as there is no need to form them, they'll be consistent and accurate and they cost very little. Note that I would use a shank thicker than scale and only slightly smaller than the head to improve the form of the head. Let me know how many thousand you need by PM.
Lawrence, if I really get around to replicating the rivets, I will definitely give the 3D printed rivets a try. Next I'll try counting how many rivets would be needed on the next assembly (front tower).
Bernhard
Hello Bernhard,
Rivets or no rivets?
I have to agree with Volker. You invest so much brainpower and energy in this great model, it would be a pity to do without the reproduction of these characteristic connectors of the sheet metal parts!
Surely it will be a lot more work until you finish, but in the end the result will inspire you all the more!
Quote4. punch rivets
Drill small holes in the back of the sheet. Then the material is pressed forward into a die with a rounded punch.
The main problem I see here is the deformation of the sheet. Since I sometimes have very large or long parts with many rivets, they will stretch uncontrollably in all directions.
I can understand your fear, but at the same time I want to reassure you. It can be handled well.
An example can be seen at my harbor crane:
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.buntbahn.de%2Ffotos%2Fdata%2F8181%2F2903Muenzel-Kran_023.jpg&hash=80fd4443949d73c61556d06eb349137f94c60817)
Described in a little more detail: click here (https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/index.php?topic=1424.30)
...and the pendulum piers to the lift bridge:
click here (https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/index.php?topic=1424.210)
and here (https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/index.php?topic=1424.225)
I had been able to smooth slightly warped sheets without any problems.
MS58 profiles must be annealed before pressing the rivets, otherwise the rivet heads crack.
For large surfaces I prefer to use nickel silver instead of brass (MS58) - at a thickness of 0.3mm it has much better stability (comparable to brass at 0.5mm thickness).
MS63 (softer brass) is somewhat easier to press than MS58 - but with the disadvantage that this material is much more difficult to mill.
After punching the rivet positions from the back with a V-cutter, I can press them wonderfully on the rip fence on my rivet stamping machine. The depth is determined by a stop on the machine.
(https://www.buntbahn.de/fotos/data/7434/medium/2903Nietenpraege.jpg)
So far, I had never found a possible length expansion disturbing even in 1:43.5 scale, here is an example:
(https://www.buntbahn.de/fotos/data/7434/medium/2903Br_cke_Untergurt-genietet.jpg)
I continue to be curious about your progress!
I would do anything you can to add the rivets. The rivets are the defining feature of equipment built in this era. I don't understand the thing about drilling holes in the back of a sheet and punching them. Here is my punching method. You don't need to drill holes, well just one. THis is in about 1mm thick brass. It shows a milling machine but you don't need that, anything that can puch the rivet, from a dedicated machine like fspg2 shows or a simple drill press.
Guys, now I'm really in a dilemma. Actually, I had already decided more or less against the reproduction of the rivets. But the last posts of Frithjof and Paul are again extremely interesting and worth considering. I will reconsider the question. I can imagine that it will come down to a combination of different techniques.
Thanks for the stimulating discussion, I love this forum for that.
Bernhard
To give you an idea of the task: I would have to install somewhere between 2,000 and 2,500 rivets on the front tower alone. However, the rivet pattern would still be very simplified.
Bernhard
Your point is? :D
What I'm really trying to say is that I'm now at the youthful age of 72. I have to think about how much time I can invest in which details if I still want to finish the project. I expect the construction to take another three to four years.
Bernhard
Not to be a smart ass here but with all the time spent thinking about these rivets you could have made a good start on them ;D The embossing technique I showed pictures of goes really fast.
What about the pounce wheel technique? Here is a video showing it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsYzfihI4tw
Also another idea...if there is some duplication how about making one "rivet plate" and then making a silicone mold and casting copies. A very thin plate that you would lay in the places where you need them. And as others have suggested 3D printing seems like a really good way to go.
You are an exceptional modeler. I'd like to see you include the rivets. -- Russ
If you do all of the prep work now, you can sit in the sun at the retirement center for your declining years finishing the rivets. The rhythm of working the shaping of them by hand will be soothing and keep you from being a threat to the other residents.
Quote from: Lawton Maner on April 15, 2023, 07:55:43 AMIf you do all of the prep work now, you can sit in the sun at the retirement center for your declining years finishing the rivets. The rhythm of working the shaping of them by hand will be soothing and keep you from being a threat to the other residents.
When they see this they'll find a nice comfortable straight jacket for you!!
Only because they have no idea what you're doing.
That being said I would go with the rivets. After all it's a one in a lifetime project!!
Jerry
Thanks Paul, Russ, Lawton and Jerry. Ok, the retirement center consideration was now the ultimate argument! I'll do it. Now I just need to revise all the drawings and think carefully about which method to use in which places.
Let's get to work!
Bernhard
Peer pressure - the irresistible force :-)
Quote from: Bernhard on April 15, 2023, 12:08:37 PMThanks Paul, Russ, Lawton and Jerry. Ok, the retirement center consideration was now the ultimate argument! I'll do it. Now I just need to revise all the drawings and think carefully about which method to use in which places.
Let's get to work!
Bernhard
That's the spirit!! :)
Repeat after me..."Count the rivets"
This is amazing work, just amazing, and you would be doing yourself and the legacy of your modelling a disservice by taking a shortcut. If the rest of the model weren't at this high-table-of-the-gods level, I would encourage you to give an impression of the pattern.
It will feel so good once its over...like hitting your head against a wall!
Thanks Lawrence, Jerry and Narayan.
After the question of the rivets is settled, I go back to work.
Front and rear tower
First, let's have a look at the prototype again.
Unfortunately there are no good photos of the front tower. The rear tower, on the other hand, can be seen well in the following photo.
Hulett 0091.jpg
(Photo: Library of Congress)
On these two pictures of the dismantled machines on Whiskey Island you can see the rear tower on the left and the front tower on the right.
Hulett 0092.jpg
Hulett 0093.jpg
(Photos: cleveland.com)
I have only found one original drawing of the front and one of the rear tower.
Hulett 0094.jpg
(Drawing: Wellman-Seaver-Morgan Co.)
Unfortunately the drawings only show the upper part of the towers, and judging by the shape they do not belong to the machines on Whiskey Island.
For the construction I therefore have to refer to Mike Rabbitt's sketches.
Hulett 0095.JPG
Hulett 0096.JPG
(Sketches: Mike Rabbitt)
The many details such as platforms, ladders, stairs etc. I have to gather from the photo collection.
I have not drawn small parts such as electrical boxes, electrical pipes and the like. I will add them to the finished model later.
And this is how the 3D model looks with the trucks already built. However, the rivets are not yet drawn in here.
The front tower
Hulett 0097.jpg
And the rear tower
Hulett 0098.jpg
So, from now on I'm back in the workshop to realize the thing.
Bernhard
Wow where did you find that original drawing? I might have a photo or two I can send you but they can't be shared online, sorry. I got them from:
https://allencountymuseum.org/
Paul,
I found some of the original drawings here (http://www.multimodalways.org/archives/rrs/RREquip/Wellman%20Engineering/Wellman%20Engineering.html)
The other part comes from the extensive estate of Ceff Clarc, archived in the library of Bowling Green University. They have kindly digitised some of the original plans for me there.
If you have any good photos, I would be very interested if you could share them. Each photo is a source of interesting information about the project. Can you send me the photos or links by P/N?
Bernhard
Bernhard:
My late Mother knitted for over a year in a retirement center and still got strange looks from some of the other residents. You just have to be sure that you do not have to use edged weapons or flames to work on the rivets as the nice men in white jackets might feel you could be of harm to someone.
Fine work Bernhard!
Philip
There was a discussion about rivets a while back, but I don´t think this producer of rivet decals was mentioned:
Railtec-models (https://www.railtec-models.com/rivets.php)
And here is a source of plastic rivets:
Plastic rivets, 0,8mm Head (https://www.artscale.eu/rivets-08-mm-1)
They are €7,50 for 250 pcs. Several head diameters are available.
Thanks for the tips, Hauk.
I bought some time ago samples of rivet decals. But they are too small for 1:32 scale, and I wonder if they stick well enough to the surface.
The plastic rivets, on the other hand, look interesting. I will get some samples and test them.
Current status in the matter:
I bought a rivet punching tool thanks to Frithjof's tip. I will show it here as soon as it is in my workshop.
I also know from my former job turning shops that produce small parts for the watch industry. There I have requested larger quantities of model rivets.
Bernhard
Quote from: Hauk on May 10, 2023, 07:35:27 AMAnd here is a source of plastic rivets:
Are you sure those are plastic? Plus Models products are usually resin.
Quote from: Krusty on May 11, 2023, 02:00:35 AMQuote from: Hauk on May 10, 2023, 07:35:27 AMAnd here is a source of plastic rivets:
Are you sure those are plastic? Plus Models products are usually resin.
I have absolutely no idea. But for rivets like this I dont think resin vs. plastic matter that much.
Quote from: Hauk on May 11, 2023, 10:46:59 PMQuote from: Krusty on May 11, 2023, 02:00:35 AMQuote from: Hauk on May 10, 2023, 07:35:27 AMAnd here is a source of plastic rivets:
Are you sure those are plastic? Plus Models products are usually resin.
I have absolutely no idea. But for rivets like this I dont think resin vs. plastic matter that much.
Maybe although resin can be inclined to shatter depending on type and age. If you do decide to go with resin/plastic I suggest getting them printed to your exact spec. You'll get exactly what you want and probably cheaper.
Finally, here we go with the production of the front and rear towers.
Due to a lack of documents, I cannot reconstruct the inner structure of the towers exactly. Since it is not visible anyway, I build two stable frames out of 20 x 20 x 2 mm square tube (drawn in green), which are then covered with sheet metal. The main girder will be mounted on the head plates later.
Hulett 0099.JPG
The raw material is ready.
Hulett 0100.JPG
The individual parts are pre-machined and then soldered together.
Hulett 0101.JPG
Then the axle holes can be drilled for the mounting of the crossbars.
Hulett 0102.JPG
A test fit of the rear tower with the trucks shows that everything fits so far.
The mechanic in the foreground is in scale 1:35 instead of 1:32, but it shows the size relations impressively.
Hulett 0103.JPG
And here you can see the finished towers, with the head plates soldered on.
Hulett 0104.JPG
In the meantime, the CNC machine is running at full speed and producing the sheet metal parts for the cladding of the towers. The 0.3 mm thick brass sheets are glued to an MDF board with double-sided adhesive foil.
Hulett 0105.JPG
The parts are milled out with a special 3 mm sheet metal cutter.
Hulett 0106.JPG
Hulett 0107.JPG
Hulett 0108.JPG
The etcher was not idle either. He etched two plates for me with gussets, stair treads, floor plates with diamond patterns and other parts.
Hulett 0109.JPG
Hulett 0110.JPG
Next, I have to convert my new rivet punching machine so that I can also machine angle profiles. Then the first parts can be assembled.
I will report about the rivet punching machine soon in a separate thread.
Hulett 0111.JPG
Bernhard
This is shaping up to become one of the legendary threads on this forum!
Looking forward to more updates.
Great work! I am VERY anxious to hear about the rivet machine! So you went from "I'm not doing rivets" To a dedicated machine for rivets!
Also what is the "special cutter" you mentioned?
The start on the towers looks good. Gusset plates with rivets will make it spectacular.
Some wise soul once said "a task of a million rivets starts with just one". Once you've done the first one the other 500,000 will seem easy. Be thankful that the peer pressure from this group didn't have you make them from hot metal and air powered hammers.
Your etched parts are gorgeous. Please add that to the other compliments. -- Russ
Bernard.
Spectacular that is all I can say.
Cheers
Terrific start of construction!
Thank you all for your interest!
@Paul:
The special cutter is a double-edged solid carbide tool with no twist. The tool is very stable. Because of the lack of twist, the sheet metal is not pulled upward during milling, and it does not tend to vibrate. This is especially useful for large thin sheets, although I always stick them to the MDF with double-sided adhesive film to be on the safe side.
Hulett 0112.jpg
@Lawton
You are absolutely right. However, I won't be able to punch all the rivets because I can't get the parts into the press. I will have to put model rivets in such places. There's a lot of work waiting!
Bernhard
Bernhard:
I use s straight flute drill bit to drill out the side frames of O scale plastic trucks to insert Celron bushings from Foothills Model Works when I convert them to P:48. This lets them roll better. Twist drills of the same size might catch on the plastic frames and destroy them. Straight flute bits can be found at most machine tool vendors, I buy mine from the local Granger's (no affiliation only a happy customer).
One challenge of making rivets from brass rod inserted into holes drilled into the 2 or more pieces being joined is to work out the assembly sequence to get them where a sub-assembly can be accessible for milling of the head early on in the process. I have been working on a 1:48 scale model of the EBT's Scale Test Car off and on for the last 3 years between trips to the full sized RR to help restore a 140+ year old passenger car. Getting it right is a 3D puzzle. Your loader is a puzzle on steroids.
Lawton, these drill bits also have the advantage that they are more stable than those with twist. For the same reason, I only use single tooth cutters below 1.5 mm.
When joining several parts with model rivets, there is another problem: the holes in all parts have to be very exactly on top of each other. I will therefore only drill the holes in the outer parts to fit exactly. In the inner parts, however, I will make them slightly larger.
Bernhard
Bernhard:
Good trick to know.
On some of the parts I've found that assembling braces onto the ends of the cross bearers prior to drilling for the rivets goes a long way toward getting the parts right. The ends are soldered prior to inserting brass rod with the hidden end rounded over before soldering leaving only the outer end to be milled later. The closed weight box on top will be easier to add rivets onto because it is closed and there will not be any way to see inside.
Of course using solder powder mixed into its flux and of decreasing melt temperature makes adding each subassembly easy. At each stage a torch makes the soldering go quite fast.
Impressive work!
It Just gets better and better - Mind Blowing precision
Barney
Thanks for your interest!
Today I want to show you how I made the curved angles on the front and side plates of the towers (green in the picture below).
Hulett 0113.JPG
The angles have a size of 4 x 4 x 0.5 mm and cannot easily be bent into the desired shape. Therefore, I milled them out of a 4 mm thick brass plate.
In the first step, the contour is pre-milled to a depth of 3.5 mm.
Hulett 0114.JPG
This results in a total of 20 parts, and a lot of chips.
Hulett 0115.JPG
Hulett 0116.JPG
Now 532 holes with a diameter of 1.1 mm have to be drilled into these parts for the rivets.
Hulett 0117.JPG
Hulett 0118.JPG
Now I could actually finish milling the angles out of the plate. Nevertheless, that's when the disaster happens: for some reason the machine loses the zero points in the X and Y directions! And of course it doesn't have reference point switches, which would make it relatively easy to fix the problem. I was aware of that. However, until now I always thought I could manage without them.
So I clamp a 1.1 mm pin in the spindle and try to position it as carefully and accurately as possible over one of the holes. With the coordinates of the hole from the programme, I can then move both axes back to the original zero point and reset them. Fortunately, this succeeds with acceptable accuracy.
Then I can finally start the machine again for the final operation.
Hulett 0119.JPG
Hulett 0120.JPG
Hulett 0121.JPG
Fantastic - But I surrender now going to flower arranging classes !!!
Barney
Many chips later, I am the proud owner of 20 finished angles.
Hulett 0122.JPG
Hulett 0123.JPG
Now I have to remove the remains of the holding webs and deburr the parts cleanly. Then I just have to make another plate with 20 mirror-image parts.
At least a first laying test shows that the angles fit perfectly on the plates.
Hulett 0124.JPG
Hulett 0125.JPG
Hulett 0126.JPG
While the CNC machine is working independently in the background, I can make a few add-on parts.
For example, the box for the life buoy ...
Hulett 0127.JPG
... or the platform on the right front tower.
Hulett 0128.JPG
Hulett 0129.JPG
Hulett 0130.JPG
Bernhard
That is an amazing process!The curved angles are looking really good.
Now you need to find a purpose to reuse all those chips!
Fascinating and remarkable all at the same time!
Very cool! Trying to bend or form angles, even in styrene, to fit curves is such a pain that I either avoid projects that require it, or leave them off and hope it goes unnoticed.
So tell us, Bernhard, have you made any progress on the loader? Seriously, your achievement so far is just remarkable. -- Russ
Just amazing work!!!
Jerry
Hello Bernard.
Your brackets are very tasty, yes great.
cheers
Quote from: Bernhard on July 09, 2023, 03:03:50 AMThank you all for your interest!
@Paul:
The special cutter is a double-edged solid carbide tool with no twist. The tool is very stable. Because of the lack of twist, the sheet metal is not pulled upward during milling, and it does not tend to vibrate. This is especially useful for large thin sheets, although I always stick them to the MDF with double-sided adhesive film to be on the safe side.
I would be very grateful if you could provide a link to the exact cutter you are using for milling. I have tried to Google for a bit like this with no success.
Hauk, I buy this type of cutter here (https://www.sorotec.de/shop/Zerspanungswerkzeuge/sorotec-werkzeuge/2-schneider/2-schneider-stahlblech/).
Quote from: Bernhard on August 20, 2023, 07:27:07 AMHauk, I buy this type of cutter here (https://www.sorotec.de/shop/Zerspanungswerkzeuge/sorotec-werkzeuge/2-schneider/2-schneider-stahlblech/).
Thanks a lot! Ordered 4 cutterd right away.
Looking forward to testing them!
PS: What are the deepest cut you take with the 2mm cutters?
And what speed/feed combination do you use?
Quote from: Bernhard on August 03, 2023, 06:30:16 AMHulett 0129.JPG
Those soldering fixtures inserted in the holes of the soldering board look very useful, could you tell us where you bought them?
Hello Hauk,
have a look here:
https://www.fohrmann.com/en/precision-engineering-tools/soldering/
I use these, they are easy to find on eBay in the US
https://www.ebay.com/itm/195830245691?hash=item2d9864693b:g:qWcAAOSw1dlkj1VY&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAAwNqzggSlPKgPto1YULm4v7Fy%2BUckraepQl2sEQQZKY8cJsxsKxIsuO4HVmAqTrlurKpOsBCxTxKQco8%2F6XjhhWFexSPaJyw4kJXRHLPtCOQJ6W6mL34%2FiFhqZLNHXuVD%2BaF0XBF8yU6GxjDr6W%2FrAs%2FoUwoBy5jwaAXZzLhJSVTWTQ3aDZDM998FOBGMEPusplWRXvZJKs59UNua%2FzBsS3sGs%2BrwfSxo%2BLa3KLKLyd19jStD01rxBW6ueGCVdDTLzA%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR-aVrtvIYg
Quote from: fspg2 on August 29, 2023, 11:09:46 PMHello Hauk,
have a look here:
https://www.fohrmann.com/en/precision-engineering-tools/soldering/
Un fortunately they do not ship outside Europe...
Do NZ Post drop ship from Europe? They used to have a depôt on one of the minor off-shore islands, but dunno about the mainland.
Quote from: Krusty on September 01, 2023, 01:52:56 AMDo NZ Post drop ship from Europe? They used to have a depôt on one of the minor off-shore islands, but dunno about the mainland.
I think so, but adds another layer of cost.
Mr Ali will provide. I'll have to make my own hold downs, but the ceramic plate and pins they'll do inexpensively.
Before we go any further, I'd like to say a few words about rivets. I have shown you here (https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/index.php?topic=3325.0) my new rivet punching machine. But now I can't just haphazardly punch rivet heads in somewhere. I have to take each drawing in hand and determine the rivet positions and the type of rivet (punched rivet head, rivet made of brass wire or model rivet).
Hulett 0131.jpg
Hulett 0132.jpg
This is quite a time-consuming job. For interest, I recorded in the parts list how many rivets there are per assembly. For the front tower, that's about 5,200 punched rivets and 670 pin rivets. And that's just the beginning!
Most rivets have a head diameter of 1.1 mm, corresponding to 7/8" rivets on the prototype. The brass wire used for pin rivets is rounded with a hollow cutter with 1.3 mm diameter. This way, the head is not exactly half-cornered, but a bit flatter, as it also corresponds to the prototype.
Now I want to show you how the riveted parts are created in detail.
First, all sheet metal parts have to go to the CNC machine again to drill the holes for the pin rivets.
Hulett 0133.JPG
Hulett 0134.JPG
Only 3 of the many holes for fixing the curved angles have a diameter of 1.1 mm. The angles are precisely positioned in these holes. The remaining holes get a diameter of 1.5 mm. This makes it easier to insert the pin rivets later.
Then the punched rivet heads are made first in the sheet metal parts.
Hulett 0135.JPG
Hulett 0136.JPG
Small parts are fixed to a sheet metal strip with Scotch tape for this purpose.
Hulett 0137.JPG
The angle profiles get punched rivet heads on both legs.
Hulett 0138.JPG
Now the necessary parts for the first side plate are ready.
Hulett 0139.JPG
Now the time-consuming assembly of the bent angles with pin rivets begins.
To do this, a few pieces of brass wire with a diameter of 1.1 mm are first rounded on one side with the hollow cutter.
Hulett 0140.JPG
The pins are put through the two angles and the sheet metal.
Hulett 0141.JPG
Then put some Loctite 648 on the tips of the pins and press them back with the tool on the bottom right. The pins now protrude only 0.5 mm.
Hulett 0142.JPG
Now pinch off the protruding ends with a side cutter. A piece of sheet metal 0.5 mm thick placed underneath ensures that enough material remains for forming the rivet heads.
Hulett 0143.JPG
Now only all rivet heads have to be rounded with the hollow cutter.
Hulett 0144.JPG
With this the first side plate of the front tower is ready, and can be held to the frame for testing.
Hulett 0145.JPG
Hulett 0146.JPG
Bernhard
There are a lot of great threads on this forum, but I alwys feel a burst of joy when I see that there is a new posting by Bernhard in this thread.
The riveted metalwork is a work of great beauty, no less.
Your work reminds me of something I say to my students in the machine shop trade
I have never regretted taking the time to do things more accurately.
Love your progress!
Bernhard, Your dedication to adding the rivets is inspiring.
Your work gives real meaning to the maxim, "Either do it right or don't do it." -- Russ
Gasp with a sharp intake of breath - but it sure looks amazing !
Barney
Dramatic level of detail. By the time you are finished you will have reached the highest level of nirvana.
I've reached the age where if the project has more then 100 rivets it will take longer then the time I have left, and I don't have the luxury of the tools you have!
Hi Bernard .
Very impressive,the planning must have taken a long time.
cheers Kim
Wow! Just...wow!
Bernhard, I really like the development, and I am happy to be able to follow the construction progress.
Thank you for your interest and the motivating comments!
In the meantime, I have made some progress. The front plates of the towers are too big for the rivet punching machine. I therefore have to solder in a few rivets as pins.
Hulett 0147.JPG
Hulett 0148.JPG
The rivets on most of the angle profiles are punched. However, I drill holes in some angles for the exact positioning of add-on parts.
Hulett 0149.JPG
The first angle profiles are fitted, ...
Hulett 0150.JPG
... then the first front panel can be test-fitted to the frame in its unfinished state. A few more angles as well as reinforcing and joining plates are still missing.
Hulett 0151.JPG
My dynamic colleague stood next to the tower to give you an impression of the proportions.
Mounting plates are soldered onto the rear panel, onto which the bearings of the drive shafts are later screwed.
Hulett 0152.JPG
I drill the core holes for the M1 threads on the CNC machine.
Hulett 0153.JPG
I cut the threads by hand on the conventional milling machine. I have a small collet chuck in which I can clamp the tap. The collet chuck has a cylindrical shank that I can hold in the drill chuck of the milling machine. I close the drill chuck so far that I can just turn the collet chuck and move it axially. Then, with a lot of feeling, I can insert the thread exactly vertically without breaking off the fine tap.
Hulett 0154.JPG
Once the front and rear panels have been prepared, they are glued to the frame of the front tower.
Hulett 0155.JPG
Fix well and then wait for a day.
Hulett 0156.JPG
Hulett 0157.JPG
You can already see the result.
Hulett 0158.JPG
Now two side plates have to be built. This requires a few angles ...
Hulett 0159.JPG
... and CNC-milled sheet metal.
Hulett 0160.JPG
The finished side plates are attached to the tower with pin rivets.
Hulett 0161.JPG
I also need two supports for the platform on the left side of the tower.
Hulett 0162.JPG
Hulett 0163.JPG
Hulett 0164.JPG
And this is the current status.
Hulett 0165.JPG
Now only about 200 more parts are missing for this foot, all of which still have to be made. So, here we go.
Bernhard
Hi Bernard.
Totally fascinating how all this is coming together.
cheers
Wow. -- Russ
As I might have said before: A work of great beauty.
A big inspiration for getting serious with my own machining. A couple of practical questions: what type of brass do you use, and where do you buy your sheets of material? I am also very curious about your spindle and feed speeds.
Thanks Kim, Russ and Hauk.
Hauk, I use two types of brass:
- Ms 58 (CuZn39Pb3) hard for flat and round material. The material is very easy to machine.
- Ms 63 (CuZn37) semi-hard for sheet metal. The material is easy to cold form.
I purchase the material from a local dealer.
I am relatively careful with the cutting values when milling. Under no circumstances should you use the values recommended by tool manufacturers for industrial use. I run the spindle at a maximum of 10,000 revolutions. Otherwise, because it is only air-cooled, it heats up too quickly.
I normally work with 2-tooth cutters with a diameter of 3 or 4 mm at a feed rate of 50 mm/min.
You have to work your way up a bit from the bottom. The optimum cutting data certainly also depends on the stability of the machine.
Bernhard
Quote from: Bernhard on November 24, 2023, 02:01:41 AMThanks Kim, Russ and Hauk.
Hauk, I use two types of brass:
- Ms 58 (CuZn39Pb3) hard for flat and round material. The material is very easy to machine.
- Ms 63 (CuZn37) semi-hard for sheet metal. The material is easy to cold form.
I purchase the material from a local dealer.
I am relatively careful with the cutting values when milling. Under no circumstances should you use the values recommended by tool manufacturers for industrial use. I run the spindle at a maximum of 10,000 revolutions. Otherwise, because it is only air-cooled, it heats up too quickly.
I normally work with 2-tooth cutters with a diameter of 3 or 4 mm at a feed rate of 50 mm/min.
You have to work your way up a bit from the bottom. The optimum cutting data certainly also depends on the stability of the machine.
Bernhard
Thanks a lot for the info!
I see that you too use very slow feeding, and it seems this is the key to success when milling metal on relatively light CNC-routers.
It already looks impressive!
Wow wow wow even without those 200 parts
You are an engineer extraordinaire! Marvelous work going on here. The finished product will be a true work of fine art and craftsmanship.
Hi Bernard.
I love following this build, just a suggestion.
Do you have a simple general arrangement drawing,? It would help to be able to follow the bits with their actual location on the loader.
It is such a complex machine it is hard to follow along.
great work Cheers.
Thank you all for your interest!
Kim, at the moment I'm working on the front foot of the unloader, on which practically the whole machine stands and travels along the dock. The section is marked in colour in the following pictures.
At the moment I'm practically building the shell of the foot. The attached platforms and ladders are still missing.
Bernhard
Hulett 0166.jpg
(Foto: Library of Congress)
Hulett 0167.jpg
Hulett 0168.jpg
Hulett 0169.jpg
Your current undertaking unfolds as the first leg of an epic journey inspired by the heroic sagas of Homer, the strength of Hercules, and even (dare I say) the spirit of Don Quixote!
Seriously, this is afantastic project, and I look forward to each update.
Thank you, Bernard.
That picture is wonderful, and now I know exactly what you are building.
cheers Kim
Then if you have the drawings, photos, and tools ... why aren't you building faster? -- ssuR
I agree with Hauk, this is going to be a truly epic build! And with the high level of quality shown so far, it'll be a model worthy of a place in the Smithsonian!
Thanks Hauk, Kim, Russ and Ray.
QuoteThen if you have the drawings, photos, and tools ... why aren't you building faster? -- ssuR
Russ, that's a really good question. I actually invest about 40% of my working time in designing the 3D model. And a not insignificant part of the production time is spent on reproducing the countless rivets.
But perhaps this is just the right moment to show you the current status of the design.
You can see the status of the overall project above (Hulett 0167 and Hulett 0168).
The next assembly I'm going to build is the
main girder.
Hulett 0170.jpg
The design is complete and the manufacturing drawings are also largely ready. At the moment I'm changing the thickness of the side and top plates from 0.4 to 0.5 mm so that I can have the parts laser-cut. That sounds like a small change, but it involves a lot of small detail corrections to other parts.
The
disc-hopper has been designed, but the production drawings have not yet been made.
Hulett 0171.jpg
The same applies to the
larry car.
Hulett 0172.jpg
The
trolley is largely finished. A few parts are still missing, such as the walking beam bearings and a platform at the right rear.
Hulett 0173.jpg
The most important parts for the trolley drive mechanism are ready.
Hulett 0174.jpg
However, I'm still not sure how I should control the whole machine. Actually, I wanted to equip and control the drives with digital model railway technology, i.e. with decoders. However, I recently had the idea of using RC technology for this. The disadvantage of this solution is that I have no idea about the technology.
Let's see. I can only decide on the drive motors once I have a definitive solution.
The walking beam is also largely finished.
Hulett 0175.jpg
The roof of the machine house and the three drives that are housed in it are still missing (beam hoist, bucket rotating mechanism, bucket closing mechanism).
A lot has already been done on the bucket leg. Above all, the pivot bearings are still missing.
Hulett 0176.jpg
The bucket is still missing completely.
A few days ago, I received more scans from the library at Bowling Green State University. These scans are a really valuable help. I hope that I can use them to complete the missing parts in my design.
But back to the workbench now!
Bernhard
Quote from: Bernhard on December 16, 2023, 02:27:54 AMBut back to the workbench now!
Bernhard
Cant wait to see more of your beutiful metalwork!
Regarding RC, are you familiar with Giles Favells book, "Radio Control For Model Railways" published by Wild Swan?
He is mainly an model railroader, but he has built many RC-controlled lorries and cranes in addtion to RC controlled railway engines.
He is a professional stage Engineeering Designer, and has done some incredibel scale model work.
You can also find his work on Youtube (username GILESENGINEER) and some competing online forums like RMWeb, Narrow Guage Modelling Online and Western Thunder. And last, but not least, The Narrow Gauge & Industrial Modelling Review.
Here is a link to his homepage:
http://bygiles.com/
Thank you for pointing this out, Hauk. I will take a close look at it. Maybe I'll find the solution for my project there.
That's what I appreciate about this forum. You can find a good answer to (almost) any question.
Bernhard
Quote from: Bernhard on December 16, 2023, 02:27:54 AMHowever, I'm still not sure how I should control the whole machine. Actually, I wanted to equip and control the drives with digital model railway technology, i.e. with decoders. However, I recently had the idea of using RC technology for this. The disadvantage of this solution is that I have no idea about the technology.
Let's see. I can only decide on the drive motors once I have a definitive solution.
T
Can I suggest looking at Arduino control? Considerable flexibility and very low cost, fully capable of integration with DCC if desired. Considering you'll possibly want to drive servos, motors, speakers and take input from various sensors the Arduino seems ideally suited.
I'm no expert, having only taken some initial steps, but I have looked at what is possible. I'll be using these units to control my layout.
An interesting idea and maybe, in some ways, analogous to Linux. I'd never heard of it before. -- Russ
Those drawings are an impressive accomplishment all on their own. So this will be a working model? Too cool!
Quote from: finescalerr on December 16, 2023, 08:26:55 PMAn interesting idea and maybe, in some ways, analogous to Linux. I'd never heard of it before. -- Russ
Just one thing that you can do is to build a stationary DCC decoder that will operate 10 servos for a few dollars. And when I say 'build' it is not complex or time-consuming. You can also put together a DCC command station from one.
The arduino is basically a very small (but quite powerful) computer, with a huge family of optional I/O, control and sensor accessories that allow you to easily customise to suit your need. Robot control is a typical application, which should suit a Hulett well.
Thanks Lawrence, Russ and Ray.
Lawrence, I have already thought about Arduino. However, I have the same problem with it as with RC technology: I don't know anything about it (yet). Some time ago I just checked whether I could fit the necessary hardware anywhere in the machine. But that shouldn't be a problem.
Sooner or later, I will probably have to take a closer look at the subject of control systems.
Bernhard
I'm pretty ignorant on Arduino at present too, other than knowing they are cheap and capable. My first 3d printer had an Arduino driving it, my son has a robot based on one and there are quite a few laying around the house for one reason or another. The one on my desk is a servo test rig. Hardware-wise it is pretty simple - most of it involves buying the bits and plug/play as far as I can see. Software is more involved, though in many cases there are downloadable libraries that will do what is needed, or serve as a basis. The DCC system can be downloaded complete (you may not need that, but it illustrates the point). Servo and motor drivers are available. There's an online community for help.
Notwithstanding all that there will certainly be a learning curve.
Hello modeling friends
In the new year I will continue with the construction of the front tower. Before the outer side plates can be attached, I have to make two trusses that will be mounted between the inner and outer side plates. To do this, I have to cut a few parts to size and punch rivets.
Hulett 0177.JPG
These parts will then be used to make the two trusses.
Hulett 0178.JPG
As the trusses have to fit exactly between the side plates, I mill a soldering jig from Pertinax for the assembly.
Hulett 0179.JPG
So, I can solder the trusses together quickly and precisely using the resistance soldering device.
Hulett 0180.JPG
The finished trusses, ...
Hulett 0181.JPG
... installed between the side plates.
Hulett 0182.JPG
Hulett 0183.JPG
There are U-channels on the back of the tower that are riveted on two sides. I can punch the rivets in the base. However, I first have to make an appropriately adapted holder for the rivet punching machine.
You can see the holder for angle profiles at the front and the new holder for the U-channels at the back.
Hulett 0184.JPG
Hulett 0185.JPG
The side rivets I have to glue in as pin rivets.
Hulett 0186.JPG
The finished parts, each with two rows of rivets.
Hulett 0187.JPG
Supports for the carriageway of the larry car are added at the front.
Hulett 0188.JPG
Now the bent cover plates are still missing. I'll build a suitable bending device for this. The bending rollers are turned ...
Hulett 0189.JPG
Hulett 0190.JPG
... and mounted on a vice. The inner roller is designed with two grooves so that the rivet rows are not pressed flat during bending.
Hulett 0191.JPG
This makes it relatively easy to shape the sheets.
Hulett 0192.JPG
Hulett 0193.JPG
Making the middle sheet is a little more complicated because it has two curves and has to fit exactly.
Hulett 0194.JPG
Now it still needs a few small parts, such as a bell ...
Hulett 0195.jpg
... or a few hats, which can be clearly seen in various photos, but whose function is unclear to me.
Hulett 0196.jpg
This completes the front tower itself.
Hulett 0197.jpg
Now it will first be glass bead blasted. Then the platforms can be added.
Bernhard
Oh my goodness, Bernhard, that is an amazing amount of progress since your previous post. It is looking great.
Very impressive Bernard.
Berhard, you get me a little frightened :o
"Machsch mer scho e chli Angscht!" in Swiss-German dialect.
Quote from: Bernhard on January 14, 2024, 02:20:59 AM... and mounted on a vice. The inner roller is designed with two grooves so that the rivet rows are not pressed flat during bending.
Another way to protect detail is to place a piece of soft card over it. Rolling works just as well, but rivets etc push into the card and are protected. I find it useful for cab roofs, where there are rivets and rainstrips to protect. Saves having to make unique rollers and also copes with detail aligned with the roller axis.
Bernhard, that is truly impressive; not just the execution but your ability to visualize what to do before doing it. Satisfactory. -- Russ
This is endlessly impressive!
Following this project develop is pure joy.
Even if I will never reach this level of modelling each update is a great inspiration for getting into the workshop and bash some brass.
Please keep the updates coming!
By the way, regarding the dicsussion to use rivets or not, I think this an excellent argument for the use of rivets:
Hulett 0181.JPG
But what can I say !!! on the other hand "Speechless"
Tried flower arranging and now stamp collecting !!
Barney
Pfft...
That was my mind being blown.
Such amazing work. WOW.
Very impressive Bernhard. From the looks of things, you have the new year well in hand. Each of your posts is like reading a great novel with each chapter providing additional insight and excitement. Looking forward to the closing chapter!
Stuart
Hello Bernhard,
I'm always pleased that you've made friends with the rivets - it's worth it, as we see again and again!
As usual, Frithjof is right. -- Russ
Thank you all for your encouraging comments.
QuoteBy the way, regarding the dicsussion to use rivets or not, I think this an excellent argument for the use of rivets
Hauk, it was clearly the right decision to reproduce the rivets. I'm glad that I was able to have the discussion here. However, it also takes a lot of time.
Bad news: I heard from a modeler in Cleveland, who is also interested in the Huletts, that the Port of Cleveland has decided to scrap the two remaining engines for good.
You can also read about it here:
https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/local-news/cleveland-metro/after-decades-long-effort-to-save-them-hulett-ore-unloaders-on-whiskey-island-to-be-sold-for-scrap (https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/local-news/cleveland-metro/after-decades-long-effort-to-save-them-hulett-ore-unloaders-on-whiskey-island-to-be-sold-for-scrap)
or here:
https://www.ideastream.org/community/2024-02-09/clevelands-historic-huletts-are-headed-for-the-scrap-heap-is-there-still-time-to-save-them (https://www.ideastream.org/community/2024-02-09/clevelands-historic-huletts-are-headed-for-the-scrap-heap-is-there-still-time-to-save-them)
It's a real shame that this interesting piece of industrial history is simply disappearing without practically any trace.
Bernhard
Quote from: Bernhard on February 17, 2024, 02:16:27 AMIt's a real shame that this interesting piece of industrial history is simply disappearing without practically any trace.
Bernhard
It is sad indeed that the unloaders wil not be preserved. But it makes your model even more valuable and interesting.
I could not agree more strongly with Håvard. -- Russ
I caught a quick glimpse of a news story that NASA is planning to demolish a number of buildings connected with the early manned flightsat Cape Canaveral that previously had been preserved.
I'd like to show you a little update on my project today.
Because I was in such a good flow, I started on the rear tower straight away. To do this, I had to add a lot of angle profiles with punched rivets, ...
Hulett 0198.JPG
... which were then fitted to the side panels, among other things.
Hulett 0199.JPG
Hulett 0200.JPG
Then the first sheets could be fitted to the frame.
Hulett 0201.JPG
Then the Y-axis display on the rivet punching machine broke down. Probably Chinese junk. So, until I get a replacement, I can't stamp any rivets.
I have therefore built the missing railing for the platform at the front tower.
Hulett 0202.JPG
Hulett 0203.JPG
Hulett 0204.JPG
Two days later I received new etching sheets with parts for further platforms and ladders.
Hulett 0205.JPG
Hulett 0206.JPG
It's difficult to photograph such sheets because you always see reflections on the shiny surfaces.
I used the diamond plates to build the five platforms for the rear tower.
Hulett 0207.JPG
Hulett 0208.JPG
Hulett 0209.JPG
Hulett 0210.JPG
And several ladders were created from the etched side parts and 1 mm brass wire.
Hulett 0211.JPG
Hulett 0212.JPG
Hulett 0213.JPG
Hulett 0214.JPG
Bernhard
It all is looking very good. Hope your rivet punching machine will be back in action soon.
Those components are just beautiful! -- Russ
Beautiful work. Wonderful progress despite the problems with your rivet machine.
Stuart
Hi Bernard.
I can feel how much you are enjoying this project.
cheers Kim
That looks amazing!
Have you counted all the rivets in the model so far?
You are clearly heading for the world record for most hand made rivets on a scale model!
Seriously, this project is a pure pleasure to follow.
I look forward to every update.
Hauk, I actually counted the rivets when I made the parts list. In the front and rear tower together there are around 6,000 punched rivets and over 1,000 pin rivets. And that's just the beginning!
Bernhard
Quote from: Bernhard on February 29, 2024, 12:58:23 AMHauk, I actually counted the rivets when I made the parts list. In the front and rear tower together there are around 6,000 punched rivets and over 1,000 pin rivets. And that's just the beginning!
Bernhard
Rivet counters of the world unite!
Hello Bernhard,
Do I understand correctly that you not only solder in the rivet pins, but also glue some of them with Loctite 648?
If so, how do the rivets behave when they heat up again during further soldering of the other parts?
Frithjof, I was worried that the cover plates would warp during soldering due to heat input at certain points. As the sheets have no structural function, I glued them almost completely with Araldit. Only the reinforcement plates for mounting the drive bearings and a few rivets are soldered. Of course, I did this before gluing.
Bernhard
Hello Bernhard,
thanks for the explanation!
I'm starting to get withdrawal symptoms - how are you getting on with the building?
Frithjof and everyone else, to satisfy your curiosity, here is a brief update. First the good news: the display on the rivet punching machine has been replaced and is now working correctly again. But then I couldn't do anything in the workshop for two weeks due to illness. However, I used this time to prepare the next assembly, the main girders, for production. This meant marking the rivets in all the drawings, preparing the raw material order, creating drawings for the laser cutting, etc.
I had to solder four more trusses together for the rear tower.
Hulett 0215.JPG
Hulett 0216.JPG
Then I was able to fit the side panels and the curved top panels.
Hulett 0217.JPG
Hulett 0218.JPG
Next, I have to sand the whole tower clean, then I can mount the various platforms.
Bernhard
The whole tower already looks pretty good dirty. -- Russ
That looks great!
This is wonderful. You are making "rivet-counter" seem like an understatement.
Three pedestals still have to be fitted to the rear tower. The first one is soldered together ...
Hulett 0219.JPG
Hulett 0220.JPG
Hulett 0221.JPG
Hulett 0222.JPG
... and then mounted on the tower.
Hulett 0223.JPG
A second pedestal is also prepared and fitted.
Hulett 0224.JPG
Hulett 0225.JPG
Hulett 0226.JPG
It is not always so easy to place the parts correctly.
Hulett 0227.JPG
Next comes the middle pedestal with the ladders.
Hulett 0228.JPG
Hulett 0229.JPG
An electrical cabinet is positioned between the two upper pedestals. This consists of an etched sheet that can be folded into a box and a milled rear panel.
Hulett 0230.JPG
Hulett 0231.JPG
Hulett 0232.JPG
Hulett 0233.JPG
The four doors ...
Hulett 0234.JPG
... are fitted with hinges (tubes Ø 1/0.6 x 3 mm) so that they can be opened.
Hulett 0235.JPG
When soldering the second hinge, I naturally soldered the door to the frame because I didn't apply enough solder-stop paste. Fortunately, the problem was relatively easy to fix.
Hulett 0236.JPG
Hulett 0237.JPG
The door latches are also already prepared. However, they are only fitted after painting so that they do not stick together.
Hulett 0238.JPG
Hulett 0239.JPG
A pedestal is also mounted on the front tower.
Hulett 0240.JPG
And now I go back to the workshop and mix paint for the finish. Then I move on to the next assembly, the main girder. I can only add the components that are still missing from the towers, such as the steps and ladders, once the main girder has been assembled on the towers so that the interfaces fit together exactly everywhere.
A few statistics on this assembly:
Weight approx. 3.7 kg
6,000 punched rivets
Over 1,000 pin rivets
So far 570 hours of working time for the production
I have not recorded the construction time
Bernhard
That is one big frame complete with ladder ,very nice.
Quote from: Bernhard on May 08, 2024, 12:47:47 AMA few statistics on this assembly:
Weight approx. 3.7 kg
6,000 punched rivets
Over 1,000 pin rivets
So far 570 hours of working time for the production
I have not recorded the construction time
I bet you're glad we talked you into it. It wouldn't be the same without rivets.
Breathtaking!
How did you do the curved angle section piece? I guess it is milled?
Cheers,
Volker
It's a combination of jewelry and watchmaking, and the rivets highlight the effort.
Thanks for your interest in this story!
@ Lawrence:
You're absolutely right, of course. I don't regret the decision to go the extra mile.
@ Volker:
Yes, all the curved angle sections are milled from a 4 mm thick plate.
The skills and experience required to create that model are beyond my comprehension. I find myself reeling in stunned disbelief. -- Russ
It takes your breath away
Barney
Such incredible work is a pleasure to watch.
Quote from: Hydrostat on May 08, 2024, 04:02:04 AMBreathtaking!
I fully agree! Not only a spectacular building project, but also a very interesting prototype!
This is world class model making. Timely as the last of the real ones at Cleveland are as we speak being scrapped. Your model will stand as a memorial to the real ones.
A legend in the making.
Thank you for not getting bored with the topic and for still being involved.
A small addendum to the statistics from the last post: the two towers consist of 873 individual parts, including the parts not yet attached such as ladders, stairs, etc. The pin rivets are not included.
In the meantime, the two towers have been primed ...
Hulett 0241.JPG
... and painted.
Hulett 0242.JPG
Hulett 0243.JPG
The builders's plate, etched from nickel silver, is attached to the front tower.
Hulett 0244.jpg
I printed out two more signs on the laser printer. Following Volker's instructions, I painted them with clear varnish and then lightly washed them.
Hulett 0245.jpg
However, I am not yet convinced by the quality. The clear varnish, which I applied with the airbrush gun, is problematic. Because the varnish was probably too thick, an unsightly texture is clearly visible on the surface of the signs.
I will make another attempt.
And here are a few more pictures of the finished towers.
Hulett 0246.JPG
Hulett 0247.JPG
Hulett 0248.JPG
The upper sign on the front tower will of course be replaced.
The main girders
The main girders rests on the two towers and carries the trolley, the larry car and the disc-hopper. On the land side, the girders are extended with a cantilever so that the wagon can drive out over the railroad tracks and empty its load into a temporary storage area.
Hulett 0249.jpg
Hulett 0250.jpg
(Fotos: Library of Congress)
Here is an aerial photo taken recently during the demolition of the machines on Whiskey Island. For orientation: the water side of the front main girders is on the left. At the bottom center of the picture, you can see one of the severed cantilevers.
Hulett 0251.jpg
It really hurts to see this picture. A testimony to technical history has been irretrievably destroyed!
Unfortunately, there are only very few original drawings of this assembly.
Hulett 0252.jpg
(Drawing: Wellman-Seaver-Morgan Co)
For the design I am therefore largely dependent on the evaluation of photos.
And this is what it looks like. Lots of parts, lots of work, lots of fun!
Hulett 0253.jpg
Hulett 0254.jpg
And the making starts straight away.
I had the sheet metal parts for the two girders laser-cut. The long sheets are over 1.3 m long. I wouldn't have been able to process them in one piece on my machine. I was also able to have the laser cut 0.6 mm wide slots into which I can insert the bulkhead plates precisely. I hope this will make it easy to fit the various parts precisely.
Hulett 0255.JPG
Hulett 0256.JPG
I also need over 70 m of different profiles and other raw materials.
Hulett 0257.JPG
And with that, I go back to the workshop.
Bernhard
"the two towers consist of 873 individual parts"
Does that mean each tower consists of 873 parts?
Satisfactory progress and the overall appearance so far is quite adequate.
Russ
873 parts for the two towers :)
Bernhard
Quote from: Bernhard on July 14, 2024, 01:15:08 PM873 parts for the two towers :)
Not counting the rivets I imagine?
Just incredible.
Incredible. A masterpiece in the making.
Stuart
Bernhard,Magnificient!
About your danger signs: Several years ago I had very good luck getting photo prints of signs at a Kodak kiosk in a pharmacy. There were two different types of kiosks. One method was self service and
very quick, but the results were not lightfast and quickly faded. The other method was operated by a tech. It was much more durable and the images were infused into a thin plastic layer on the front surface of the photo paper. I could remove almost all of the paper backing to reduce the thicknes of the signs.
Unfortunately I do not remember what that method is called. The tech person who operated that kiosk is gone. She was very helpful at adjusting color balance and other variables to ge accurate prints at no charge when she saw what I was trying to do. Since her departure the equipment has not been well maintained and now is only self service by the customer. Perhaps you can find someplace near you that does durable photo prints.
I scaled the signs to fit on a standard (U.S.) 4 inch by 6 inch photo print, on glossy paper with NO border. Selecting "add a border"changed the size of the image area and the scale of the signs.
The signs looked like enameled metal signs, but with a light spray of a Krylon clear flat coating they could easily be other materials. Some of the signs have been on my layout over 15 years and do not appear to have faded at all under normal room lighting.
One question: Where did you find the originals for the signs that you printed? They appear to me to be newer than signs that would have been on the Hulett Unloaders when they were in service.
UPDATE: Bernhard, I didn't find any helpful information about Kodak photo kiosks, but I did find good information about KODAK PROFESSIONAL Inkjet Photo Paper:
When printed with state-of-the-art pigmented inks, prints made on KODAK PROFESSIONAL Inkjet Photo Paper are projected to last in excess of 100 years, even when displayed without additional protection, such as behind glass.
This Hulett Ore Unloader seems to come from outer space – absolute surreal! Not only the scale and the dimensions are beyond all I have seen before, also the work required! I admire your courage to tackle such a project! :o
About Bill's post: Not only Kodak but also Epson has glossy photo paper that nominally lasts a century (if you keep it away from direct sunlight). If you print on glossy paper you shouldn't need a clear coat. -- Russ
The Cleveland Hulett's operated until 1992 so the signs could be correct for the modern era. Wonderful progress on the model Bernhard.
Thanks to everyone for your interest and comments.
Bill and Russ:
Actually, all the necessary signs fit on a postcard. But you can only buy whole boxes of photo paper from us, at an outrageous price. I have therefore printed the signs on relatively thick and smooth paper, which you can get as individual sheets, on a trial basis. I'll see if anyone of my friends can help me out with a single sheet of photo paper.
This sealing of photos: could it be that they have been laminated? I do have a laminator.
You're really right about the Danger sign. I'll have to redraw that. Incidentally, of course, I don't know when these signs were attached to the machines.
Hulett 0258.jpg
Hulett 0259.jpg
Bernhard
I use (custom) waterslide decals for things like signs.
Not easy for one or two in a hurry, but fine if you can plan ahead.
pdc.ca use a high resolution laser for full colour (+white). Highly recommended.
I don't have a handy pic of any signs (and I've misplaced my unused stock), but attached wagon lettering uses the decals (9mm/ft scale). An added benefit is that the decals can be distressed to fade the lettering. I used a fibreglass brush to scuff up the wagon numbers here.
Generally vector graphics will give a better result than raster, so ideally draw signs rather than using images. Nevertheless images can still work very well.
Lawrence, that was actually my first thought too, to stick a decal on a thin sheet of metal. But I've already had bad experiences with this. Although I sealed the decal well with clear varnish, wash crept between the decal and the sheet metal due to capillary action during the subsequent ageing process.
That's why I first tried Volker's method. With Volker's help, I'm sure I'll get somewhere.
Bernhard
Do you have any plans to showcase this incredible project to the public? I am very eager to see it in person and literally willing to go to great lengths to do so!
Quoteattached wagon lettering uses the decals
<pedant mode> according to the Loco.63 L.5301 was a 5-board wagon </pedant mode> :-)
Quote from: Krusty on July 18, 2024, 01:19:23 AMQuoteattached wagon lettering uses the decals
<pedant mode> according to the Loco.63 L.5301 was a 5-board wagon </pedant mode> :-)
Artwork probably done in my carefree earlier days
Quote from: Hauk on July 18, 2024, 12:32:08 AMDo you have any plans to showcase this incredible project to the public? I am very eager to see it in person and literally willing to go to great lengths to do so!
Hauk, I don't have any such events planned at the moment. But if you're ever in my area, my door is always open. I would be very happy about a visit, also from any other forum member. There is also always enough cold beer in the cellar for a cozy evening.
Bernhard
Hope to take you up on your kind offer one day!
Hello Bernhard,
it's impressive how you arrange the amount of parts!
Even if it is "only" 1:32, the dimensions of your prototype are simply enormous!
I have one question about your numbering on the line drawings. Do you name the individual parts by name or just number them consecutively?
I am still pleased that you are reproducing the rivets. :)
Bernhard:
Your question from 17 July about how the signs are attached to the crane, I might have an answer. In the early 1970's I worked for the shipyard in Newport News, Va and there were small and medium signs located all over the ships under construction. Those on hatches (doors to you) which indicated whether or not they were normally open or sealed were marked with a sign glued to the hatch. Others if not applied to a water tight bulkhead were simply screwed in place. If you have a high resolution image blow it up and look at the corners of the sign, I feel you will find shadows of the screw or bolt heads in each corner.
I was in Switzerland in May...I had this idea I should look you up. But I was there with a new lady friend and we had a jamb packed schedule. She is half Swiss and there were relatives to see ...and those mountains! Maybe next time, she would like to see your work too.
Hauk, I don't have any such events planned at the moment. But if you're ever in my area, my door is always open. I would be very happy about a visit, also from any other forum member. There is also always enough cold beer in the cellar for a cozy evening.
Bernhard
[/quote]
Speaking of visits, Stuart and his wife visited my wife and me a couple of weeks ago. I only knew Stuart from the forum and a couple of e-mails. We spent an entire afternoon together and had a great time. I encourage any of us on the forum to visit each other when an opportunity presents itself. -- Russ
Quote from: fspg2 on July 21, 2024, 09:27:52 AMI have one question about your numbering on the line drawings. Do you name the individual parts by name or just number them consecutively?
Thank you Frithjof. Each individual part and sub-assembly have its own number. The individual parts of the sub-assemblies have sub-numbers, e.g. 1534.01, 1534.02 ... So, I can clearly identify all parts in the parts list.
Bernhard
Quote from: Lawton Maner on July 21, 2024, 07:51:11 PMBernhard:
Your question from 17 July about how the signs are attached to the crane, I might have an answer. In the early 1970's I worked for the shipyard in Newport News, Va and there were small and medium signs located all over the ships under construction. Those on hatches (doors to you) which indicated whether or not they were normally open or sealed were marked with a sign glued to the hatch. Others if not applied to a water tight bulkhead were simply screwed in place. If you have a high resolution image blow it up and look at the corners of the sign, I feel you will find shadows of the screw or bolt heads in each corner.
Thanks for your tip, Lawton. Such information from contemporary witnesses is always welcome. I will recreate the mounting accordingly.
Bernhard
Quote from: SandiaPaul on July 22, 2024, 05:43:08 PMI was in Switzerland in May...I had this idea I should look you up. But I was there with a new lady friend and we had a jamb packed schedule. She is half Swiss and there were relatives to see ...and those mountains! Maybe next time, she would like to see your work too.
Paul, you are of course always welcome to an interesting exchange between modellers!
Bernhard
Quote from: finescalerr on July 23, 2024, 12:12:01 AMSpeaking of visits, Stuart and his wife visited my wife and me a couple of weeks ago. I only knew Stuart from the forum and a couple of e-mails. We spent an entire afternoon together and had a great time. I encourage any of us on the forum to visit each other when an opportunity presents itself. -- Russ
I can only agree with that!
Bernhard
Before I really start working on the main girders, I have to take care of one special detail. One design detail can often be seen on the main girders, but also on other assemblies such as the trolley or the walking beam: vertical reinforcing angles that are squeezed on one or both sides so that they overlap a horizontal angle underneath.
Shown here on a drawing of the main girders, ...
Hulett 0260.jpg
(Drawing: Wellman-Seaver-Morgan Co)
... or in the original, e.g. on the walking beam.
Hulett 0261.jpg
(Foto: Cleveland.com)
I want to reproduce this exactly in the model. On a 3 x 3 mm angle it will look something like this:
Hulett 0262.jpg
I have to build a pressing tool for the production. I bought a suitable toggle press from a classified ad.
Hulett 0263.JPG
The necessary pressing tool consists of just a few parts.
Hulett 0264.jpg
Hulett 0265.JPG
Two angle profiles are inserted into the tool from behind and clamped.
Hulett 0266.JPG
The angles are guided in the punch in such a way that they cannot move sideways during the forming process.
Hulett 0267.JPG
The punch is pressed down 0.5 mm and the angle profiles are thus formed.
Hulett 0268.JPG
The result is not so bad. However, you can see that the squeezed ends of the lower profile are slightly bent downwards.
Hulett 0269.JPG
I correct this by using a new mould and reworking the punch. In the foreground of the following picture you can see the new mould, in the background the old one. The end of the profile is now no longer pressed down into the void, but onto a stop surface.
Hulett 0270.JPG
The result is now convincing.
Hulett 0271.jpg
And this is what it looks like when the angle profiles are on top of each other
Hulett 0272.jpg
Bernhard
Hello Bernhard,
once again a clever solution from you!
Did you anneal the profiles before pressing?
Brilliant. -- Russ
Hi Bernhard
I am randomly working on a project, which in the (then!!!) youthful overconfidence originally was planned in brass. Your ingenious technique is what I would have required !
7-8-7_A.jpg
I have to realize again, that it's quite better for me to go on with my CAD attempts... ;D
Quote from: fspg2 on July 23, 2024, 09:52:37 AMonce again a clever solution from you!
Did you anneal the profiles before pressing?
Frithjof, with the modified tool I was able to squeeze the profiles without prior annealing. Before the modification, the setting was critical. If I pressed a little too deep, the ends of the profiles were sheared off.
However, annealing is still an option for series production. I'll have to see how quickly the tool wears out. It's not hardened at the moment.
Quote from: Peter_T1958 on July 24, 2024, 12:22:40 AMI am randomly working on a project, which in the (then!!!) youthful overconfidence originally was planned in brass. Your ingenious technique is what I would have required !
Peter, a great piece! The vertical angles also seem to have been squeezed out. I'm itching to build this.
Bernhard
Quote from: Bernhard on July 17, 2024, 11:53:35 PMWith Volker's help, I'm sure I'll get somewhere.
Bernhard,
did you receive my PM? My 5 Cent so far: I used usual clear nail lacquer, diluted with acetone and then 'dropped' it in place. The boss reduces volume as the acetone evaporates. You have to push the boss a bit around or add some acetone at the edges to achieve a somewhat even surface. It may work with glossy lacquer and an air brush, too, but I think the critical point is the need for a rather big amount of applied color.
Cheers,
Volker
Clever tooling!
The ends of the stiffeners on riveted bridges were hot forged. If you anneal the brass before forming it will work easier.
Amazing work!
Before we continue with the main girders, here is a small update on the signs on the front tower. It was already clear to me that the design of the signs was not professional because I only have modern fonts in my graphic programs. Volker quickly noticed this too, and he offered to redraw the signs and print them out on photo paper straight away.
He succeeded perfectly, as the following before/after comparison shows. The fonts and font widths are now much better.
Hulett 0273.jpg
Hulett 0274.jpg
As he recommended, I coated the signs with transparent nail varnish and then aged them with wash.
Hulett 0275.JPG
And this is what the new sign on the front foot looks like.
Hulett 0276.JPG
Thanks again, Volker!
I also made a missing part for the front tower: this is probably a protection to prevent ore from falling out of the grab onto the roof of the larry car.
Hulett 0277.jpg
Actually, the whole thing consists more or less of two U-channels. I wanted to bend these profiles 20 x 4 x 0.5 and 151 mm long from 0.5 mm sheet metal. To do this, I cut two bending grooves in the sheet metal with a 92° cutter. However, the bending then failed miserably due to the lack of a suitable bending tool.
I therefore milled the profiles from a 4 mm plate. That produced a lot of chips, but it worked right away.
Hulett 0278.JPG
Hulett 0279.jpg
Now solder the connecting plates with the resistance soldering device, ...
Hulett 0280.JPG
... and the part is finished.
Hulett 0281.JPG
The only thing missing is the paintwork.
Hulett 0282.JPG
Bernhard
Outstanding. And, as he does with everything, Volker did a beautiful job on your signs. This is the first time we've seen your model with paint, too. Nice weathering. -- Russ
Inspirational.
Outstanding if that's the word or better still fantastic !!!
Barney
Awesome!
Like Russ said, It's terrific to see paint on the Hulett. The color and weathering look right. And the sign does too.
What a tremendous work! And I am getting fairly dizzy when I think by myself, what lies still ahead of you.
Yes, the aim is certainly a very, veryambitious one. But as you are very disciplined and also clearly focused on this one project...
Cheers, Peter
Switzerland_animated-flag.gif
All is shaping up very nicely.
Thank you for your interest and your comments.
I already reported in an earlier post that the dismantled Huletts on Whiskey Island were finally scrapped this spring after more than 20 years. It's a real shame that no solution was found for the preservation of these interesting technical witnesses to the times.
Nevertheless, the scrapping does have a positive aspect: during the demolition work, interesting insights were gained that would hardly have been possible otherwise.
Before demolition, all the vegetation was removed, allowing a better view of the remains for the first time in over 20 years.
Hulett 0283.jpg
Hulett 0284.jpg
Hulett 0285.jpg
Hulett 0286.jpg
(Photos: droneohio.com)
I then came into contact with Tim Murphy via a Facebook post. That turned out to be a real stroke of luck. He was one of the few people granted permission to enter the site during the demolition work. He took many interesting photos during two visits. He was also able to dismantle various smaller components, which he intends to restore and give to local museums. He kindly shared the pictures with me, and I would like to show you some of them here.
Here are a few pictures of the trolly.
Hulett 0287.jpg
Hulett 0288.jpg
(Photos: Tim Murphy)
From the rear you can see that the rear part of the roof has been torn away and the traction motor is missing. Among other things, the sheaves from the lifting drive of the walking beam are also no longer present.
And this is what it looks like inside the trolly.
Hulett 0289.jpg
Hulett 0290.jpg
(Photos: Tim Murphy)
I always wondered what was stored in this room. As you can see now, a lot of electrical equipment was installed there. It also served as a checkroom and lounge for the operating crew.
And now look what I found a few days ago: a photo of the production of the trolly.
Hulett 0291.jpg
I was quite surprised because I've never seen pictures of the manufacture before. A very interesting find, although it's certainly not a trolly for Whiskey Island.
I've never seen the larry car like this before. In the old photos, it is always difficult to make out between the main girders. Unfortunately, it is not intact either. The rollers are hanging down and some are missing. The drive side on the left is damaged.
However, with the help of these photos and an original drawing, I was able to reconstruct how the scales worked. Until now, I had no information on this at all.
Hulett 0292.jpg
(Photo: Tim Murphy)
The access door to the driver's cab, seen from the water side.
Hulett 0293.jpg
(Photo: Tim Murphy)
The inside of the driver's cab has always been a blank spot, no information to be found.
Here you can now see the scales. This is apparently a decimal scale with sliding weights for measuring the payload.
Hulett 0294.jpg
(Photo: Tim Murphy)
Here are two nice pictures of the driver's workplace.
Hulett 0295.jpg
Hulett 0296.jpg
(Photos: Tim Murphy)
The driver was not sitting facing the direction of travel, but was looking out of one of the large side windows. From this position, however, he could not see the flaps of the larry car. To position the larry car over the railroad hoppers, he had to use the markings on the inside of the larry car track as a guide.
Hulett 0297.jpg
(Photo: Tim Murphy)
If you look closely, you can see numbers under the marking arrows (2, 3). I assume that these were the numbers of the railroad tracks.
The larry car driver must have been quite a busy man. He had to operate the disc hopper to take over the load. Then he had to weigh the load and enter the weight in a list. Then he had to drive to the right railroad track and place the load in the rail car. He had to make sure that the rail cars were not overloaded. For safety reasons, overloaded rail cars had to be uncoupled from the train. Then drive back and take on the new load. All this every minute. And it was a cardinal sin to leave the Hulett operator waiting at the bunker.
A few pictures of the shunt engines. One of the engines has been on display at the Lake Shore Railway Museum in North East for some time.
Hulett 0298.jpg
Hulett 0299.jpg
Hulett 0300.jpg
(Photos: Tim Murphy)
And finally, three more pictures of parts that Tim has rescued and, in some cases, already restored with great dedication.
Hulett 0301.jpg
Hulett 0302.jpg
Hulett 0303.jpg
(Photos: Tim Murphy)
I will share more pictures later when I describe the construction of the corresponding assemblys.
Bernhard
You found a treasury of fascinating and useful photos. -- Russ
Hello Bernhard,
that's a great find - I'm delighted that you came across it! Congratulations :)
What fascinating photos. Thanks for posting them.
Wow great pictures...and sad. Especially as I saw these regularly when I was growing up. The pics will be really useful as you progress. Are you going to make the larry car?
QuoteAre you going to make the larry car?
Yes Paul, of course I'm going to build the larry car too. With the help of Tim's photos, I've finished designing it. But the build will have to wait until I have finished the main girders.
Bernhard
It's always helpful to have as much information as possible to refer to, especially on a build as complex as the one you are undertaking. All the best to you as your project continues.
Stuart
Those are great photos of the wrecking site. They are priceless for the builder, others then you can scarcely guess what you (and only you) can make out in those photos.
Bernhard it just gets better - - but what is a "Larry Car "
Barney
Quote from: Barney on October 22, 2024, 01:28:05 PMBernhard it just gets better - - but what is a "Larry Car "
Barney
I wondered that too, and found out from Google it's a "self-propelled car for carrying materials". I also found this very interesting webpage about larry cars used in steel mills:
http://industrialscenery.blogspot.com/2021/01/larry-cars-in-steel-mills.html
There is also a bit of info about the Hulett ore loaders and its larry cars.
Ray, yes that is a good explanation. Thanks for sharing. As a reminder, I'll show you the schematic of the whole machine with all the functions.
Hulett 0006.jpg
Hulett 0009.jpg
(Quelle: Historic American Engineering Record, National Park Service, delineated by Hardlines Design Company, 2000)
Bernhard
It might have been adressed earlier in the thread, but why did they need separate narrow gauge tracks for the shunting engines? Couldnt they just use standard gauge shunters on the same tracks as the cars?
Not that I am complaining, it makes the project even more fascinating!
Hauk, I actually don't know that either. Maybe they wanted to save space and time. The distance between the towers is slightly smaller, and the travel distance for the larry car is slightly shorter.
Bernhard
Thank you guys for your interest and your comments.
The first parts for the two long main girders are slowly taking shape. First, I have to work on the frames inside the girders. These are designed so that the tracks for the disc hopper and the larry car can also be attached to them. To do this, I have to mill a few bent reinforcing angles from a 3 mm brass plate.
Hulett 0304.JPG
These angles are fastened with pin rivets, so I still have to drill the braces accordingly.
Hulett 0305.JPG
I also have to emboss rivets into various angles and reinforcement plates.
Hulett 0306.jpg
All parts ready for assembly:
Hulett 0307.jpg
The reinforcement angles are soldered on both sides of the frames, and the pin rivets are glued in with high-strength Loctite 648.
Hulett 0308.JPG
I need a total of 4 left and 4 right braces. Because the track of the larry car is inclined by 4°, the frames are of different heights.
Hulett 0309.jpg
I continue with the long side plates of the girders. First, I mark out the positions for the reinforcement plates, to which the bearings of the drive shaft of the travel drive will later be attached.
Hulett 0310.JPG
The reinforcing plates are pre-tinned and then soldered to the side plate with the soldering torch.
Hulett 0311.JPG
Hulett 0312.JPG
Then the side plates have to be drilled. They are over 1.3 m long, but my CNC machine only has about 780 mm of travel. I therefore have to push all the parts once so that I can machine them over their entire length.
Hulett 0313.JPG
Hulett 0314.JPG
Hulett 0315.JPG
Next step: Emboss the rivets in the side and cover plates.
Hulett 0316.JPG
Hulett 0317.JPG
Then the mounting angles for the foot plates have to be soldered to the inside of the side plates. To do this, I prepare a mounting plate into which I drill two holes for dowel pins.
Hulett 0318.JPG
I can then position the two foot plates at exactly the right distance from each other.
Hulett 0319.JPG
I screw the mounting angles to the foot plates and then solder the angles to the inside of the side plates.
Hulett 0320.JPG
To check the exact alignment of the two side plates, I put the cover plate on for a test. It already looks good, but there's still a long way to go before the main girders are finished.
Hulett 0321.JPG
Now it's time to fit the reinforcing angles. I have already milled the necessary four bends from a 4 mm brass plate.
Hulett 0322.jpg
These are first tacked to the outside of the side plates. Then pin rivets are soldered from the inside and rounded on the outside.
Hulett 0323.JPG
Hulett 0324.JPG
Before assembly can continue, I now have to punch hundreds of rivets into several meters of 4 mm angle. So back to the workshop and off we go.
Bernhard
Bernhard, If you every now and then hate us for convincing you that you had to include every rivet on your model, I dont blame you!
Hauk is right, but I've got to admit they all look fantasic.
Until you posted those photos showing the overall size of the components, I had no idea how enormous your model is. When it is complete, where will you display it? -- Russ
Wow, this thing is going to be HUGE!
Thanks Hauk, Bill, Russ and Ray.
Quote from: finescalerr on October 30, 2024, 12:31:02 PMUntil you posted those photos showing the overall size of the components, I had no idea how enormous your model is. When it is complete, where will you display it? -- Russ
I haven't really thought about exhibiting the model yet. First of all, when the model is finished in a few years' time, I'll probably put it up in my office. Then every year in Friedrichshafen, Germany, there is a big model building fair. That's not far from us, so maybe I'll show the model there. And finally, maybe it will find a place on the other side of the pond, in its home country.
Bernhard
Quote from: Bernhard on October 31, 2024, 02:38:17 AMThen every year in Friedrichshafen, Germany, there is a big model building fair. That's not far from us, so maybe I'll show the model there.
That´s this very weekend. You better hurry up finishing the model!
Seriously, I think it would be a great idea to present it as a work in progress next year. I will seriously concider going there just for this project. And how about an Westlake Modelling Forum meet at The Faszination Modellbau fair in 2025? It´s the last week of october that year.
Quote from: Hauk on October 31, 2024, 03:31:43 AMAnd how about an Westlake Modelling Forum meet at The Faszination Modellbau fair in 2025? It´s the last week of october that year.
Phantastic idea! I'd be there, too!
After my last visit in Friedrichshafen I decided to go no longer down there (too much electronic stuff instead of serious scale models). But when the ,,creme de la creme" will be there, I will make a rare exception to meet these people... ;D
Astounding. All of it.
Hello Bernhard,
it's always impressive how you work through the huge amount of individual parts!
I recently discovered a few links on YouTube to hulett unloaders, which I'm sure you already know. They were huge monsters.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9drS3Wqyp8&t=579s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JErREoMOdDc&t=687s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNuJ9uhXwj8&t=155s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNuJ9uhXwj8&t=184s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjLq2cBS6Zs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2B-V2n4b34&t=744s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2B-V2n4b34
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RJfnk2S330&t=2s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnvaYAu79Qc&t=241s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHR7YzX0ru4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-URVQgQZI_k&t=148s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNuJ9uhXwj8&t=403s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulEeasLb9bY
...and as a model realization - but not comparable with your craftsmanship:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKDO_kEf0QQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRRuTTAgeZU
I have to mention it again: It's great that you recreate the rivets!
Thanks Frithjof for sharing the links. I already know most of them, and I've also seen interesting details in some of them.
The Meccano model is impressive and really well done. It also shows the motion sequence well. By the way, it is also in 1:32 scale.
Bernhard
it is the work of a watchmaker. Congratulation !
Thank you for your interest and your comments.
As I said, I had to add embossed rivets to a total of almost 20 m of longitudinal angles. That is a real labor of patience.
Hulett 0325.JPG
Part of it is now ready for assembly on the first sheet metal parts.
Hulett 0326.JPG
The angles are not soldered over the entire surface, but only attached with a soldering point approx. every 50 mm. Otherwise the parts would probably deform considerably due to the much greater heat input required.
Hulett 0327.JPG
Hulett 0328.JPG
Hulett 0329.JPG
The brazing of the angles has already made the sheets much more stable.
The supports for the larry car track are being drilled for fastening, then they will be glass-bead blasted.
Hulett 0330.JPG
The metal sheets are thoroughly washed to remove any soldering fluid residue before further assembly.
Now everything is ready to assemble the first girder.
Hulett 0331.JPG
First all the braces are inserted, ...
Hulett 0332.JPG
... then the box is closed.
Hulett 0333.JPG
Hulett 0334.JPG
Now all parts can be soldered together. This is not easy in places inside the girder, because it is difficult to get in with the electrode of the resistance soldering device.
But after six and a half hours, it's finally done.
Hulett 0335.JPG
Hulett 0336.JPG
Hulett 0337.JPG
The first girder lies on the towers for a test. And my employee of the month, despite his fear of heights, stood on top of it to show you the proportions.
The figures are impressive:
Height of the feet: prototype 6336 mm (20.8 '), model 198 mm (7.8 '').
Height of the carrier: prototype 2440 mm (8'), model 76 mm (3').
Length of the girder with the rear cantilever: prototype 40870 mm (134 '), model 1277 mm (4.2 ').
But the girder is far from finished. Next, I have to attach various trusses. To do this, I cut two soldering jigs into a Resopal panel.
Hulett 0338.JPG
Fitting the gusset plates with rivets, ...
Hulett 0339.JPG
... and the first trusses can be soldered.
Hulett 0340.JPG
As you can see from the part on the right, I always mill the soldering jigs so that I can solder a left and a right version in the same jig.
Hulett 0341.JPG
The next soldering jig is a little more complex. It is intended for the trusses on the outside of the cantilever and is half a meter long. It is also prepared so that I can solder a left and a right version.
Hulett 0342.JPG
Hulett 0343.JPG
But before I can start soldering, I first have to fit countless gusset plates and angles with embossed rivets.
Bernhard
This gets more and more dizzying... :o
But your work space is not bad either!
So tell us, Bernhard, what did you do over your Thanksgiving vacation?
The size and complexity of those girders and supports are overwhelming, yet every detail is virtually perfect. This is an adequate project.
Russ
Bernhard, I showed a retired machinist/engineer friend parts of this thread and he was amazed at your work and envious of some of your equipment.
Wow, what an epic project!
Always impressive and gets ever more so as your work continues!
Stuart
Blow your mind "big time "
Barney
Stunning. I feel a little jump for joy every time I see an update to this fantastic project.
Hi Bernard,
Amazing project -on a scale of 1/32.
Tell me what is the estimated finished size?
cheers
Bernhard, I am late replying, but like Hauk said, I enjoying seeing your updates on this fantastic project. (Any guess about how many rivets you have added so far ;D
Thank you all for your interest and comments.
Kim, the length of the machine will be 1800 mm when the trolley is all the way forward. The height is 670 mm when the walking beam is horizontal. When it is swung all the way up, the height is 825 mm. The width is 320 mm.
Bernhard
High time for another up-date!
I made a stupid mistake when milling the soldering jig for the side truss. I milled it and then put it aside without checking it, because I had to prepare the individual parts for the framework first. When I then wanted to insert the first parts, I realized that all the pockets were about 0.4 mm undersized for some unknown reason. So, I had to mill the jig a second time, this time with a little more clearance for inserting the parts.
But then I could finally get started. The first parts are inserted and soldered.
Hulett 0344.JPG
Hulett 0345.JPG
Hulett 0346.JPG
The lower truss is soldered in another jig.
Hulett 0347.JPG
Hulett 0348.JPG
Then a few more parts have to be soldered into the cantilever, ...
Hulett 0349.JPG
... before the side and bottom trusses can be placed on the cantilever for the first time.
Hulett 0350.JPG
A joining plate must be fitted to the inside of the cantilever before the final assembly of the trusses.
Hulett 0351.JPG
The trusses and stiffening angles can then be mounted on the inside of the cantilever.
Hulett 0352.JPG
Hulett 0353.JPG
Done! (so far)
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Now the pressing tool that I built for deforming stiffening angles is used.
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There are some of these special reinforcement brackets on the back of the carrier.
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There are also a lot of reinforcement and joining plates.
Hulett 0360.jpg
Various parts must be prepared for the installation of the hopper rail.
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All parts can then be mounted on the inside of the girder.
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And this is what the (almost) finished inside looks like. I won't be able to fit some parts until later, because they have to fit exactly with the truss parts between the two girders.
Hulett 0365.JPG
The outside of the girder is somewhat simpler. There are only joining and reinforcement plates, no angles.
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Hulett 0367.JPG
So I go back to the workbench. Always with the thought in the back of my mind: make two!
Bernhard
Bernhard
I know, the purpose of a hobby is to consume time. But this amount of fine engineering work is just unbelievable!!!
What also impresses me is your pressing tool for deforming stiffening angles - very clever.
Hats off!
Peter
P.S. Here also a link to some wonderful colour pictures on Jeff Arthur Knorek's FB site:
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1BWXMGfp4T/
Great guns, Batman, that is a magnificent piece of work! -- Russ
And I agree with all.
Barney
Stunning work!
Stuart
Marvelous!
One disadvantage I've found in working with styrene is that punching rivets into narrow strips tends to distort the plastic too much. From what I've seen here that doesn't seem to be an issue with brass.
Actually, it is an issue. That's another reason why Bernhard's modelling is so impressive.
Thanks Peter, Russ, Barney, Stuart, Ray and Krusty.
Ray, unfortunately brass strips and angles also warp slightly when riveting. However, you can straighten them relatively easily by hand.
Bernhard
Thank you all for your interest and your comments.
First a little picture story about the production of 4 stoppers for the hopper rails.
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Hulett 0369.JPG
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Now the hopper rail can be drilled and the M1 fastening threads cut.
Hulett 0372.JPG
To mount the larry car rail, a few brackets have to be made first.
Hulett 0373.JPG
Hulett 0374.JPG
The two rails can then be fitted.
Hulett 0375.JPG
Hulett 0376.JPG
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Now the individual parts required for the supports for the side walkway are cut to length and fitted with rivets.
Hulett 0378.JPG
For soldering the individual parts, I mill two jigs into a Resopal panel.
Hulett 0379.JPG
The supports can then be soldered together to fit precisely.
Hulett 0380.JPG
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The finished parts are ready to be attached to the main girder.
Hulett 0382.JPG
They are soldered to the main girder using an improvised soldering aid.
Hulett 0383.JPG
Hulett 0384.JPG
Hulett 0385.JPG
As a next step, I have decided to tackle the second carrier. As long as I still have some idea of how I built the first one. Because I have already made many parts with the first carrier, this is also pleasingly quick and uncomplicated. At the moment it's practically finished and is waiting for the rails and supports to be fitted.
Bernhard
Satisfactory. -- Russ
"...pleasingly quick and uncomplicated..."
;D
I can't get over how massive this thing is going to be!
Quote from: Bernhard on March 23, 2025, 09:39:11 AMAs a next step, I have decided to tackle the second carrier. As long as I still have some idea of how I built the first one.
I am simply overwhelmed. Such a professional approach - and furthermore very forward planning! It's actually a fact, that modelling skill or the knowledge about how something was made fade away. To my experience that knowledge is stored not only in our memory but also in our hands etc. (comparable with the skill to jump from a springboard). So you should do well tackle down the second carrier now !
Bernhard,
this is so well executed - I'm overwhelmed!
Volker
Bernhard,
even if I have already told you once, I am totally thrilled!!!
Bernhard,
Between you and Frithjof's project, my head is swimming!
Stuart
Thank you for your interest in the project.
Here are two pictures of the assembly of the right girder.
Hulett 0386.JPG
Hulett 0387.JPG
For the truss, I had four sheets etched too few. The missing parts, including the bending grooves, are milled from 0.3 mm sheet brass.
Hulett 0388.JPG
The two girders can then be placed next to each other on the towers for the first time.
Hulett 0389.JPG
Now a few supports for the guide rail need to be soldered and fitted.
Hulett 0390.JPG
Hulett 0391.JPG
Hulett 0392.JPG
The parts for the catwalk supports are prepared ...
Hulett 0393.JPG
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... and soldered together in a milled soldering jig.
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They are then fitted to the girder.
Hulett 0399.JPG
Busbars for the trolley's power supply are mounted on the catwalk supports. These are protected with a curved cover plate.
Hulett 0400.jpg
I built a bending device to produce the 0.2 mm thick brass sheets.
Hulett 0401.JPG
The finished sheet metal should have a bending radius of 4.5 mm. As the sheet springs back slightly after bending, the template has a radius of 4.0 mm.
The sheet metal strip can be pushed into the device up to a stop and then clamped.
Hulett 0402.JPG
The bending shaft and the two levers are then attached.
Hulett 0403.JPG
The sheet metal strip is pressed over the template with the bending shaft. This is quite easy with a material thickness of 0.2 mm.
Hulett 0404.JPG
The result: satisfactory. The sheet has exactly the desired shape.
Hulett 0405.JPG
The necessary parts are produced quickly, ...
Hulett 0406.JPG
... the soldering to the 1.5 mm angles of the catwalk supports is, however, quite difficult.
Hulett 0407.JPG
We continue with the two catwalks that run along the outside of the girders.
Hulett 0408.JPG
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Now comes the big moment: I mount the girders on the towers.
Hulett 0411.JPG
Hulett 0412.JPG
With a bit of reworking here and there, everything fits together so far. The whole construction remains on its back for the time being, because this way I can better install the cross connections between the beams.
The first cross member is fitted at the front.
Punching a few rivets, ...
Hulett 0413.JPG
... a bit of soldering, ...
Hulett 0414.JPG
... some woodworking, ...
Hulett 0415.JPG
... and the thing is ready.
Hulett 0416.JPG
Incidentally, I will be traveling across the pond for a "study visit" in the fall. I'll be meeting some of the people I've come into contact with during the course of the project. I will also be photographing and measuring the gripper in Asthabula and a shunt engine in Nort East. These are the last two assemblies for which I have not yet found any further information. And of course I will be traveling the Great Lakes region.
Bernhard
Satisfactory. And I hope your upcoming trip is productive and a lot of fun. -- Russ
Love it, beautiful work.
Regards Kim
Absolutely stunning work! The detailing on the Caterpillar scraper is next-level — from the hydraulics to the subtle weathering, everything looks spot on. It's clear a lot of thought and skill went into this build. Really inspiring to see craftsmanship like this!
Whats the in-port charge for entering the Big Apple for us across the pound or are we banned !!!
Barney
You are forever banned under threat of life imprisonment. In addition there's a fee of U.S. $45,000 per knee. But think about it. It's a bargain at twice the price! -- ssuR
Quote from: finescalerr on June 19, 2025, 08:05:18 PMYou are forever banned under threat of life imprisonment. In addition there's a fee of U.S. $45,000 per knee. But think about it. It's a bargain at twice the price! -- ssuR
Oh, I didn't know that. I'll think about it again.
drahnreB
Absolutely jaw dropping work! :o
Stuart
This is triply impressive, for its size, complexity, and execution!
This project is inspiring both for its time frame and for its execution.
Good morning and thank you as always for your interest.
Shortly before I leave for my "study trip" to the USA, here is a brief update. Work has been rather slow in recent weeks because I preferred to spend the beautiful weather in the garden rather than in the basement workshop. Nevertheless, I have accomplished quite a bit.
I was finally able to get back to the lathe and turn a few parts:
two axles ...
Hulett 0417.JPG
... and two pulleys for the larry car's traction cable.
Hulett 0418.JPG
Hulett 0419.jpg
The parts will be installed in the cross member at the very back of the main girders.
Hulett 0420.JPG
Then the preparatory work for the construction of several diagonal struts begins:
milling soldering jigs, ...
Hulett 0421.JPG
... punching rivets, ...
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... cutting profiles to length.
Hulett 0423.JPG
Then the 6 different diagonal struts can be soldered on.
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A few cross struts are also added.
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The creation of another cross strut in 4 pictures:
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Now repeat the whole process on the other side, and the result will look like this:
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Then insert all the struts between the two main girders to test the fit.
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The final assembly will only take place after the main girders and all struts and trusses have been painted.
Next, I'm building the cover over the drive motor that moves the whole machine along the dock.
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And now for the small trusses that belong at the bottom of the bridge girders.
Hulett 0438.JPG
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All of this adds up to a nice pile of parts that have now been glass bead blasted and cleaned and are waiting to be painted and installed.
Hulett 0440.jpg
Then I put the whole assembly back in the right position so that I could start attaching the side walks.
Hulett 0441.JPG
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It looks completely different than when the part is lying on its back!
So, now I'm going to turn off the lights in the workshop, pack my suitcase, and head off to the Great Lakes!
Bernhard
My goodness!
Have a wonderful trip.
Russ
So, now I'm going to turn off the lights in the workshop, pack my suitcase, and head off to the Great Lakes! Bernhard
Have a great trip. When you get back you will have no trouble finding the Hulet Ore Unloader because your work will shine in the dark.
Quote from: Bernhard on August 25, 2025, 12:15:38 AMIt looks completely different than when the part is lying on its back!
Amazing whichever way up it is!
Fantastic work!
This must surely be one of the largest brass models ever built?
PS: What sort of solder and flux do you use?
Thanks Russ, Bill, Lawrence, and Hauk.
QuotePS: What sort of solder and flux do you use?
I use solid solder wire S-Sn60Pb40 without flux filling as solder. However, I don't know if this quality is still available today, as it obviously contains lead.
As a flux, I use soldering water FM 344 from a German manufacturer CFH (https://cfh-gmbh.de/produkte/lote-flussmittel/116/loetwasser-fm-344?c=17), which is also available from retailers in other countries.
Don't forget: always clean the soldering points thoroughly with sandpaper before soldering!
Bernhard
Quote from: Bernhard on August 26, 2025, 12:31:39 AMThanks Russ, Bill, Lawrence, and Hauk.
QuotePS: What sort of solder and flux do you use?
I use solid solder wire S-Sn60Pb40 without flux filling as solder. However, I don't know if this quality is still available today, as it obviously contains lead.
As a flux, I use soldering water FM 344 from a German manufacturer CFH (https://cfh-gmbh.de/produkte/lote-flussmittel/116/loetwasser-fm-344?c=17), which is also available from retailers in other countries.
Don't forget: always clean the soldering points thoroughly with sandpaper before soldering!
Bernhard
Mad Dogs and Englishmen still use leaded solders. So you can still get tin/lead solder from British suppliers. I have tried non-leaded solders, and to put it short, they dont cut it.
Personally, I use a 188C soldering cream that is sold as a spackeling compund for automobile bodywork, so it is not affected by the legislation against leaded solder in the EU/EEA countries.
Beyond incredible.
Outstanding workmanship and more than incredible !!
Barney
Stunning, absolutely stunning!
Stuart
Bernhard, I am always completely thrilled!
What kind of material is used for your soldering gauges — black HDF?
Have a wonderful trip with lots of impressions! Come back safe and sound!
Thanks Chuck, Barney, Stuart and Frithjof.
QuoteWhat kind of material is used for your soldering gauges — black HDF?
The material for the soldering jigs is called Resopal. It's something between MDF and Pertinax. I buy it cheaply at the hardware store as leftover material.
Bernhard
This isn't directly related to model building, but I'd like to tell you about my nearly three-week "study trip" to the USA. I was traveling with our older daughter. The trip took us from Chicago via Terre Haute, Bowling Green, Cleveland and Niagara Falls to Toronto.
First, we spent a few days in Chicago. I live in a small village with 350 inhabitants. The houses here are no more than three levels high. So, the city was quite impressive. Especially when you consider that Lake Michigan is larger than Switzerland in terms of area.
Our first visit was to Tim Murphy. He was fortunate enough to be able to enter the factory premises twice and take photos during the scrapping of the last two machines on Whiskey Island. He was also able to remove and take some original parts with him. I have already reported on this erlier. We had a great time together.
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Then we visited the library at Bowling Green State University in Bowling Green, Ohio. Archivist Mark Sprang had already digitized many original drawings for me. Now we had the opportunity to meet him in person and browse through the collection. Mark digitized some interesting documents for us right there on the spot. It was a very inspiring day.
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The next meeting was with Mike Pascucci. He is designing a digital model of a Hulett based on the original drawings from Bowling Green. In doing so, he is meticulously tracing every single part on a scale of 1:1. What a job! We had a very interesting exchange of ideas.
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Then we visited Northern Ohio Scrap Service Corporation in Euclid, Ohio. The company scrapped the last two machines on Whiskey Island in early 2024. They keep a bucket with a piece of the leg on their premises. It was really impressive to stand in front of this gigantic thing. It looks a bit bizarre with its caterpillar tracks. But these were only fitted to make it easier to move the thing. We were given a very friendly welcome by the owners of the scrap yard and were able to measure and photograph the bucket extensively.
The bucket is to be installed at the entrance to the company premises in the near future.
Hulett 0447.jpg
Henry Brooks, a former foreman who was responsible for the Huletts' operations in Conneaut, Ohio, accompanied us on the visit. It was a wonderful opportunity for us to speak with a contemporary witness.
Next stop: the Ashtabula Maritime and Surface Transportation Museum in Ashtabula, Ohio. There is a bucket on display there, which we also measured and photographed. With full commitment, as you can see.
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The last stop was the Lake Shore Railway Historical Society in North East, PA. A shunt locomotive that was formerly used on Whiskey Island is on display there. Here, too, we measured and took photos.
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With that, the work was done and the vacation could begin. We were able to relax for a few days in Niagara Falls and Toronto.
It was a truly unforgettable trip. We got to meet some extremely nice and helpful people and gathered a lot of interesting information for my project. I would like to express my sincere thanks to everyone for that. Of course, special thanks also go to my daughter. Her language skills were a valuable asset in our conversations. And she accompanied her nerdy father everywhere without complaining, even though it may not always have been that interesting for a non-technician.
I will now spend the next few days processing the information I have gathered and using it to complete my design.
Bernhard
Research is half the fun of modelling!
What an enjoyable and productive trip. Your daughter must be very patient or else she inherited your modeling genes. Either way you're lucky. -- Russ
"Incredible Stuff" absolute monster equipment - and just look at those sleepers (ties) in the last shot
Barney
Bernhard, looks like you had a fun and productive trip.
All those new details will surely become part of our model.
HI Bernard.
What a golden opportunity, the working cabin must have been an amazing ride,
I'm so glad you had a good trip!
Hello Bernhard,
I'm glad you were able to explore so many great details to incorporate into your model!
Oh yes, the bucket has a great chain.
As inspiration, here is a link to the Buntbahn forum (in German), where Jürgen shows an ingenious implementation of a double roller chain for his Bundesbahn Köf2: click (https://www.buntbahn.de/viewtopic.php?t=12303&hilit=k%C3%B6f+2&start=40)
I'm looking forward to seeing how the construction progresses!
Fantastic Engineering in miniature
Barney
Quote from: fspg2 on October 16, 2025, 01:50:04 AMHello Bernhard,
I'm glad you were able to explore so many great details to incorporate into your model!
Oh yes, the bucket has a great chain.
As inspiration, here is a link to the Buntbahn forum (in German), where Jürgen shows an ingenious implementation of a double roller chain for his Bundesbahn Köf2: click (https://www.buntbahn.de/viewtopic.php?t=12303&hilit=k%C3%B6f+2&start=40)
I'm looking forward to seeing how the construction progresses!
Thanks to everyone for your comments!
Fortunately, flyer chains are used on the bucket instead of roller chains. They consist only of links and bolts. Since you can't buy anything like this, it's time to get creative again. I'll have the links cut out of nickel silver and then rivet them together like the original. This is going to be fun!
Hulett 0450.jpg
Fun? Really? -- Russ