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Author Topic: Diorama orientation/layout  (Read 52588 times)
DaKra
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« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2009, 11:04:26 PM »

Great examples and observations, Marc.    Note also from the photo examples that a plain rectangular structure with a pitched roof can have so much character and appeal.   

A lot of these kit designers seem to reject a rectangular structure as unacceptably plain, but a scale model of a complicated structure is hard to design, so they end up disguising rectangular boxes with staircases and balconies and lofts and funny roof shapes, unrealistic signage, sprinkling it with a bunch of castings, ending up with a doofy cartoon.   

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« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2009, 03:31:06 AM »

Amen, Brother Dave, amen!

And, as usual, Brother Reusser's sharp eye and research has provided good examples of actual waterfront architecture and design. Keep going with ideas and suggestions; I'm taking notes myself!

Russ
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« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2009, 04:56:56 AM »


  Pat,

  first sketches coming up soon. I have to clean them up to make it understandable. I will add a number of cross sections for explanation.
 
  In the area of the waterside scene near the mill, it will be along Marc's photo's. I was surprised with how little the idea's differ.
 
  Jacq
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« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2009, 10:31:33 AM »

Hi Pat,

I have to agree with the other guys.  The white building jsut doesn't look right.  Maybe it's the contrasting roofs.  The flattened barn (Dutch?) roof seems odd for such a small building, unless it's a shed from the Home Depot or Lowes.  I like the green building.

On a detail note, most, if not all of the boats works I have been to always had a collection of boats beyond repair sitting in the weeds.  Piles of them.

If you want another business near the boatworks may I suggest a Prop shop.  Someone is always beating someone elses beat up props back into shape.  Oyster reefs are particularly brutal on props. 

Just my 2 scents.

Russ
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jacq01
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« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2009, 02:06:02 PM »


Pat,

here a first very quick sketch based on your original concept.



the mainline is still a dog bone with 2 loops and only 1 tunnel. The tressle in the curve is replaced with a stone/snow gallery and repositioned along the short side of the island and now represents a steep gorge where the line follows on a ridge with the tressle where it crosses a waterfall.  On the other side the line follows rivers dissappearing around a curve to dissappear out of sight still within the visible pandscaping.
The mill has it's own sortingyard and tracks to the logdump, green chain and slab storage. The mainline dissappears behind buildings / trees and makes a full turn ( inside the buildings on a hillside to connect to the line along the river.

This is a first impression. I am presently preparing 2 more idea's.  One where the mainline is more dominant and storage space under the station.
The second one with a much shorter mainline, still with storage under the station) but with a much larger logging area. The waterfront and sawmill will be in the same area, but with some more freedom for great landscaping.

Jacq

when the 2 others are ready and published, let me know your preference and I'll work out some grades, curves, transitions etc
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« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2009, 04:19:32 PM »

Jacq,

Tha's a great plan.  I really like pretty much all of it. The mill layout is great, and the proximity/connection to the fishing/boat piers is nice and cohesive. I like the relocationof the logging camp and loading area into the 'U' on the left, and I really like the relocation of the trestle to the front side of the visual block (ridge).  Each of these areas really is a nice secene on it's own, and works well as a whole Each having its own character and feel...yet working together due to their locattian/arrangement on the layout. The whole thing looks like it could be built in a series of "shadow boxes" and be just stunning.

The only thing I don't care for...even though prototypical, is the snow shed....it seems a bit long especially at such a prominent point.....I think I would prefer a much shorter one....or just have a really nice graceful curve passing through the a rocky and forested hillside...the kindof place they used to take photos of in "the old days"......I think it combined with the trestle and tunnel, combine to give even a more different feel from the rest of the layout...it gices that open country/mountain feel that som many layouts strive for, yet can never achieve, because there is always a structure/town somewhere in the sight line.....your scheme eliminates this problem (that is if Pat refrains from sticking buildings in the scene)...and gives you a real feel of "distance" and the small scale of man/railroad in the mountains.


MR
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« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2009, 05:10:59 PM »

  Marc,

 in my opinion, there should be no buildings from the river towards the tunnel.  Only country side. I drew the snow shed  to "camouflage" the sharp radius and the large angle of the curve.  It can easily be replaced with an open line and some protruding rocks with cuts to break the length of the curve as you are proposing.

Jacq
« Last Edit: December 07, 2009, 05:50:43 PM by jacq01 » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2009, 06:12:43 PM »

Wow, guys don't stop by for a few days and see what happens. Marc, thanks so much for all the reference material, the one question I guess is still how does one know what the size perspective between two structures which are not owned by the same business should relate? I keep coming back to this because maybe I'm not understanding the relationship.

Jacq, thanks so much for working on the plan, my poor eyes and small computer screen don't allow me to see the plan very well could you perhaps email it to me? pjmelec10434@optonline.net Thanks Pat
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« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2009, 05:12:40 AM »

That's a nice plan.  I especially like the switchback.
Wish I had room for a layout after seeing this.
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« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2009, 09:46:07 AM »

Pat

The point about dimensions of the buildings in your scene is about artistic composition and how the buildings and other pieces relate to each other in terms of balance and proportion.   These are factors that artists and photographers work with to make interesting, successful compositions.   Dioramas are no different.  I agree with Marc that the large building on one side, with small building on the other is just not a successful composition.   Imbalance is dynamic and can be very interesting, unfortunately here the buildings don't really relate to each other, so the imbalance isn't serving any visual or narrative purpose.   Where you do have balance, in the roughly equal dimensions of the piers and alignment on the square base, it looks static.   That building on the right is the main culprit, its trying hard to be cute and interesting but only looks outlandish.  That is the chief failing of many "craftsman" type structures.   

Dave


 
   
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« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2009, 02:03:28 PM »

I wish everyone planning a layout would read this thread. -- Russ
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« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2009, 03:04:38 PM »

What about artistic composition in the real world? Doesn't always apply, does it?

I don't have a problem with the little white structure. Don't think it's cartoonish or outlandish or whatever. It happens in the real world whether we like it or not.

I grew up in a harbor town along Lake Michigan in the 50's. On the east side of the river was the C. Reiss Coal Company. Along the west was fishing shanties used by the commercial fisherman. The largest shanty belonged to Schwartz Fish Company and it was huge. They processed tons of fish there every day. Right next to it was the DNR shanty. Looked much like the small white structure except it was broadside to the river. Even had outside stairs. On the other side was a small retail fish market.

Scattered along the rest of the river to the 8th street bridge and the mouth of the harbor were various other sized shanties. Couple of boat repair shops, one diesel engine repair shop and Lyle's Bait and Tackle. He had the 8x10' shanty filled with anything you needed. Bait tanks were outside under a tin roof.

Nobody thought about artistic composition when those shanties were built. Each housed a business where many people made a living off the water. And I can still see them as if it was yesterday. I think there is only two or three left.

Sorry about the mini rant, but not everything in the real world is pleasing to the eye. I'd keep the white structure.
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« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2009, 03:42:42 PM »

  Most modelers start off with a wish list of items to be incorporated on their layout. This list of want and greed is often the reason why layouts do not come beyond the modeltrain stage.
Here is a formula that is incorporating all our wants (and greed) so we do not forget even one item andstill gives areasonable possiblity for a realistic setting.
Make a list of ALL wishes.

1  sort of railway
2  amount of rolling stock.
3  scenes with wanted structures.
4  scenery ( rural, city, industrial )
5  timetable to built the layout.

 Now make a plan incorporating all these points and assess the realism.  When satisfied start when not do the following.

Now remove 90% ( not less) from the list. Give reasons why the 10% should remain and what the relation is between these items.
One becomes aware of how locations are arranged as seen in reality. This "feeling" for the "virtual" scene to be turned into a layout makes it  possible to prepare some first realistic sketches. It enables a blending of the scenes, together with the impression that it all is part of a locallity or theme. Selected compression is necessary, but not to the extend that it makes a caricature of the scenes next to each other.

Here the trackplan of my H0 layout. This plan has evolved along the points described.
First there was a double mainline with a station having 6-7 tracks with a turntable and large engine facilities, etc ect.

Than the rubber became my best friend and I started asking myself what the purpose of each item was in relation to the theme I wanted.
The result is a single main line climbing into a valley, with a steep section requiring assistance for the heavier trains. I learned a lot about tractive effort, allowable hook load and brake loads. All necessary to built a realistic layout. Industries ? Yes, but matching the location, so in this instance rural based on natural resources ( lime, basalt, gravel, wood, etc. )  figures can make or break a scene. In this case ther is only 1 person in the station, talking to the station chef. Is he going or arriving ? the same with figures around. I tried to create scenes where it is very difficult to determine an exact hour with the figures at rest.
And so the list can go on..... the main point is AWARNESS of what you built and a realistic transition from scene to scene.












Building is not difficult, understanding what you do is the most difficult part.


Jacq

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« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2009, 03:52:14 PM »

Marken,

Noting like a good rant to let off steam Wink Grin

Quote
What about artistic composition in the real world? Doesn't always apply, does it?

True, and I agree....."but"....we tend to have a different visual cone/field of vision when we look at something from our perspective in the real world, and how we see a scene on a layout or diorama.....and when we (most people) take photos of a real world scene, regardless of what it is...we do usually try to frame or balance it, to make it look visually interesting, or bring our eye into the focal point, object, and we do tend to crop out/not include things that we feel are unsightly or do not work in the shot.  This to some extent is what you are trying to do as well when creating a diorama/scene......we are trying to create a scene that is realistic/believable in a visually interesting way.


Quote
....Along the west was fishing shanties used by the commercial fisherman. The largest shanty belonged to Schwartz Fish Company and it was huge. They processed tons of fish there every day. Right next to it was the DNR shanty. Looked much like the small white structure except it was broadside to the river. Even had outside stairs. On the other side was a small retail fish market.

Scattered along the rest of the river to the 8th street bridge and the mouth of the harbor were various other sized shanties. Couple of boat repair shops, one diesel engine repair shop and Lyle's Bait and Tackle. He had the 8x10' shanty filled with anything you needed. Bait tanks were outside under a tin roof.]....Along the west was fishing shanties used by the commercial fisherman. The largest shanty belonged to Schwartz Fish Company and it was huge. They processed tons of fish there every day. Right next to it was the DNR shanty. Looked much like the small white structure except it was broadside to the river. Even had outside stairs. On the other side was a small retail fish market.

Scattered along the rest of the river to the 8th street bridge and the mouth of the harbor were various other sized shanties. Couple of boat repair shops, one diesel engine repair shop and Lyle's Bait and Tackle. He had the 8x10' shanty filled with anything you needed. Bait tanks were outside under a tin roof.

...and there is the artistic composition at work.....the large structure was a center/focal point amongst the many random smaller structures. The numerous smaller structures also visually balanced the larger one. This is the issue at hand with Pat's scene......one large...one dinky....no balance.....if he wants to keep the small structure, maybe he should consider adding smallish structure to the other side of the green one....even it it is just one of those open air shed type ones (like in the images) down by the water line.  he could even add two smallish ones at that side one down lower, one up hiher somewhere.

And I definitely agree with all that Dave said....and in particular the part about the similar piers making the scene very static.

Pat: The size/distance perspective between two disimilar business structures is really an open ended quaestion....in reality this obiously varies wildly due to all sorts of reasons.....but for a scene/diorama purpose, you need to try and see it through the "camera lens".....this relates back to the above and Dave's post.  This though is where a fine balance between reality and fantasy/caricature comes in,...it is definitely trial and error and takes some experimenting with mock-ups...or moving the actual structures around a bit to see how they create the best scene (and still retain a sense of realism).   If we are talking boat yards.....and though they are very different from yours, IMO the two that work very well in this regard are the old Nash & Greenberg boat yard scene, and the more recent shipyard building scene by Dave Revelia. There are others as well, but I cant bull them out of my mess of a brain at the moment.

There is some guy that is doing more east coast style wharf scenes using Water color paper buildings.....don't know if it was in a thread here or elswhere, but I feel he has a really nice sense of composition, scale, character and plausability as well.

Marc

« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 04:00:21 PM by marc_reusser » Logged

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Chuck Doan
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« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2009, 04:25:34 PM »

Some excellent info!
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