Westlake Publishing Forums

General Category => Maritime Modeling => Topic started by: Les Tindall on July 04, 2021, 07:22:26 AM

Title: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Les Tindall on July 04, 2021, 07:22:26 AM
The forum always seems to be a fount of knowledge. So here's the question:

On sternwheeler engines (ones with Pitman lever valve gear) are they reversed using a linkage from near the boiler (which can be some distance away) or by levers situated beside the engines (in which case an additional person is required as I am presuming the steam flow to the engines is controlled from valves by the boiler)?   

Les Tindall
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Barney on July 06, 2021, 01:31:48 PM
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ships_Engine_Order_Telegraph.png
Now every one will SAY Im WRONG but Captain Birdseye said the ships telegraph see above link would be used- basically a man on the bridge does the orders and a man in the engine room does the rest some early versions were just a brass trumpet you shouted down it went down a tube to the engine room the steam from the boilers would be also controlled by "the man " down below or at the rear of the ship in this case
Barney
still asleep !!
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Ray Dunakin on July 06, 2021, 10:23:37 PM
I don't know squat about sternwheeler river boats, but perhaps there might be something helpful in this video which was shot aboard the Nachez:

https://youtu.be/kPamW4DzccA (https://youtu.be/kPamW4DzccA)

Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: 5thwheel on July 06, 2021, 10:58:41 PM
These photos are from the City of Portland in Portland, Oregon. The boilers are separate from the engines. The reversing is operated via a quadrant (no picture) at the head of the engines. by the engineer.   
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: 5thwheel on July 06, 2021, 11:06:36 PM
The pilot house
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Les Tindall on July 07, 2021, 01:24:08 AM
Thanks all, Bill I think your photos may have answered the question with a crew of 2 on the engines.  One - the "boilerman" keeping the fire going and operating the steam inlet valves, to the cylinders and the other (possibly 15 feet away from the boiler by the engines) operating the reversing gear (the drawings I have do not show any steam valves/wheels by the cylinders so must have been operated from the boiler), both having communication with the pilot from the wheelhouse via speaker tubes or telegraph. I suppose wages were cheap in those days (around 1910)!
Les
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Les Tindall on July 07, 2021, 03:43:45 AM
Been doing some more thinking on this. The "engineer" would have to be pretty nimble, if there was no linkage between the 2 cylinders to reverse them, he would have to run around 10 feet across the engine room (possibly on the early boats full of cargo) and then inform the pilot and boilerman that this had been done and they could allow then steam back into the cylinders.  Good communication was required, reversing one engine before the other is not good for machinery! (ther new boats such as "Natchez" have more modern equipment  and not the rather crude Pitman valve gear. Any further thoughts and comment welcome.
Les
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: 5thwheel on July 07, 2021, 07:07:35 AM
Les, Maybe this will help.  Are you planning on building a model a stern wheeler?
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Les Tindall on July 07, 2021, 01:01:56 PM
Thanks again Bill, a useful picture.  Barney and I have also been chatting by email with suggestions and ideas. It's coming together.   I have started on the engines for a 1/24th scale sternwheeler workboat with a steam dredger at the front. Outline idea attached.
Les
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Les Tindall on July 07, 2021, 01:06:39 PM
Oops - vertical paddleboats! 
The Engines look a bit like sewage pipes with lever on top. That is the Pitman lever valve gear, its a slow revving, low pressure engine.  I've still got to figure out where the steam valves go to operate the engines as non of the drawings I have show them.
Les   
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: 5thwheel on July 12, 2021, 02:19:38 PM
A small stern wheeler wood fired boiler single stack.
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: 5thwheel on July 12, 2021, 02:25:43 PM
A small stern wheeler similar to what you are trying to design.
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Les Tindall on July 13, 2021, 01:35:55 AM
Thanks Bill, that drawing of the sternwheeler is just about the right size for the one I am think of building. It's also useful as it gives the width versus length ratio. Important to make the boat "look right". I presume the little room at the back (sorry stern) of the boat is the WC (loo, dunny, toilet, heads - whatever you eant to call it).

Les   
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: 5thwheel on July 13, 2021, 07:00:45 AM
Quote from: Les Tindall on July 13, 2021, 01:35:55 AM
Thanks Bill, that drawing of the sternwheeler is just about the right size for the one I am think of building. It's also useful as it gives the width versus length ratio. Important to make the boat "look right". I presume the little room at the back (sorry stern) of the boat is the WC (loo, dunny, toilet, heads - whatever you eant to call it).

Les   
Could be the head but probably had a holding tank below. [I can just imagine turds etc. sticking to the paddle wheel blades] I suggest you have a squared off bow like a barge. Looks like a fun project.
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: 5thwheel on July 13, 2021, 07:15:09 AM
Quote from: Les Tindall on July 07, 2021, 01:06:39 PM
Oops - vertical paddleboats! 
The Engines look a bit like sewage pipes with lever on top. That is the Pitman lever valve gear, its a slow revving, low pressure engine.  I've still got to figure out where the steam valves go to operate the engines as non of the drawings I have show them.
Les   
The engines should have a long stroke. alleys say your boat is 90 feet long: it would require two engines w/ 8" diameter cylinder X 42" stroke. It would consume 4 1/2 cords per hour. I hope you can read the chart attached.
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: 5thwheel on July 13, 2021, 07:25:17 AM
I don't know if you can find a copy now but I am getting my information from The marine Iron Works of Chicago U.S.A.  It is a reprint off a 1902 catalogue. ISBN 0-948885-00-9.
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Les Tindall on July 14, 2021, 12:48:36 AM
Hi Bill, amused by the thought of turds flying around the sternwheel!  Thanks again for the info.  My boat will have a squared-off bow as it will have the (Erie or Bucyrus) "clam shell" dredger fitted.   Looking at the engine size chart you posted the boat will be a little overpowered as I am nearing completion of the engines.  Mine are 10" bore with 4ft stroke, but then the extra power would be useful with that flat front. I'll post some photos when the engines are done.
Les
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Les Tindall on July 19, 2021, 11:32:53 AM
Well the two engines are almost complete (as far as can be before mounting on the support beams which will include the main transmission beam).  The reversing gear will then be added.  The attached photo shows them in my usual dark grey before final painting with steel, silver, etc. to highlight the detail.   Some of the bits were rather fideley (scale is 1/24th) especially the springs on top of the valve levers (very fine plastic rod wrapped around a larger piece of rodding) plus lots of nbw's (from Historex Agents here in the UK).
Les
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: 5thwheel on July 19, 2021, 11:56:34 AM
Looks believable.  Nice job.
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Chuck Doan on July 19, 2021, 07:01:12 PM
Just catching up...nice work Les! Interesting project.
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: finescalerr on July 20, 2021, 12:28:59 AM
I like it. -- Russ
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Les Tindall on July 20, 2021, 01:31:47 AM
Thanks for the comments.  Just spotted a couple or errors,  a rather "blobby" look on the end of the front cylinder and a nut missing on the back one.   Now rectified.  Its amazing what you can spot in a photo and not in "real life"!   
Les
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Barney on July 20, 2021, 02:56:00 AM
Another superb piece of plastic engineering  - great stuff  Les
Barney
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Bill Gill on July 20, 2021, 07:51:55 AM
Les,  the engines are looking good. What did you print them in?
Whatever you call it  (head, loo...) I'm sure it wouldn't have anything remotely like a holding tank.

Lot of good information in general in this thread. I want to make an 18 foot HO scale steam launch.
I have a hull but haven't found anything I can use as an engine. Anyone have ideas?
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Les Tindall on July 20, 2021, 08:43:51 AM
Hi Bill, the engines are scratch built in styrene (tube, strip, angle, etc), lots of fiddley bits but reasonable happy with the result.   I've been thinking about the head (loo) and decided a couple of buckets (suitably "weathered!") would be about right - keep it BASIC.  At the end of the day it is a work boat.
Your thoughts about a small steam launch sound interesting.  It would say a small vertical boiler, nicely clad in wood and lots of brasswork, coupled to a small single cylinder engime would look about right.  Very Victorian. Perhaps take a look at the film "African Queen" for ideas.
Les
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Bill Gill on July 20, 2021, 03:20:38 PM
Thanks, Les. Somehow I got it in my sieve of a head that you 3D printed the engines. They look really good.

Yes, I have a few photos of steam launches, new and restored, taken at a museum, and your description of details to feature are spot on.
I'm not that good to be able model the engine in HO scale, but have been looking at possibly kitbashing an HO Woodland Scenics Rural Sawmill engine and boiler that a friend gave me, although the castings are very rough. I think the molds have passed their prime.
Here's what the kit looks like built as intended.
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: 5thwheel on July 20, 2021, 07:32:56 PM
Quote from: Bill Gill on July 20, 2021, 03:20:38 PM
Thanks, Les. Somehow I got it in my sieve of a head that you 3D printed the engines. They look really good.

Yes, I have a few photos of steam launches, new and restored, taken at a museum, and your description of details to feature are spot on.
I'm not that good to be able model the engine in HO scale, but have been looking at possibly kitbashing an HO Woodland Scenics Rural Sawmill engine and boiler that a friend gave me, although the castings are very rough. I think the molds have passed their prime.
Here's what the kit looks like built as intended.

I would suggest that you turn the engine 90º and run the prop shaft directly off the flywheel rather than by belt.
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Ray Dunakin on July 20, 2021, 11:15:39 PM
Quote from: Les Tindall on July 19, 2021, 11:32:53 AM
Well the two engines are almost complete (as far as can be before mounting on the support beams which will include the main transmission beam).  The reversing gear will then be added.  The attached photo shows them in my usual dark grey before final painting with steel, silver, etc. to highlight the detail.   Some of the bits were rather fideley (scale is 1/24th) especially the springs on top of the valve levers (very fine plastic rod wrapped around a larger piece of rodding) plus lots of nbw's (from Historex Agents here in the UK).
Les

Wow! Those look fantastic!
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Bill Gill on July 21, 2021, 04:30:03 AM
Bill (5th Wheel), Thanks, that's what I've been looking at doing. I don't like the plumbing up high, the flywheel is too big and the boiler firebox is awkward, but I think I can make it work.

Les, sorry, didn't mean to hijack your thread.
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Rail and Tie on December 30, 2021, 12:07:21 PM
Hi Les,

Just catching up. You did a fantastic job on the engines.  I did not mind doing mine in CAD and 3D printing, but what you did from scratch is amazing!  How is the rest of the boat progressing?
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Les Tindall on January 01, 2022, 02:39:44 AM
Some quick progress photos of the boat - and its a big beast 3ft long!  I have decided to set it in the late 40's early 50's as a sternwheeler workboat with a marine boiler (coal fired) old-type engines working in India or Far East on river/canal dredging duties. It will have a Ruston No.6 steam grab crane for those purposes situated at the bow of this flat fronted boat. The engines and boiler are scratch-built in styrene (scale 1/24th). The most recent addition is a small diesel powered generator to provide lighting and power to electric pumps. This came about when Barney kindly donated two of his engines. The generator is made up of odd bits from the scrapbox.   
Les
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Les Tindall on January 01, 2022, 02:41:37 AM
Two more shots, the coal sack is made from "Fimo" oven harden clay.
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Barney on January 01, 2022, 10:43:33 AM
Thats looking good - in fact better than excellent - nice clean workmanship - and different
Hope you did not use to much of your local forest !!
Barney
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: finescalerr on January 01, 2022, 12:28:47 PM
An outstanding model to launch 2022. -- Russ
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Ray Dunakin on January 02, 2022, 08:23:13 PM
Looks fantastic already!
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: 5thwheel on January 02, 2022, 09:37:32 PM
Looking really good but I wonder if that one boiler is large
enough to run both long stroke engines.

Bill
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Les Tindall on January 03, 2022, 01:14:09 AM
Bill, I was thinking the same myself.  At the moment I just couldn't face replacing it with a larger one.
Les
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Barney on January 03, 2022, 03:59:33 AM
Take two steps back - sit down have a nice tot or two(or maybe 3 or 4 ) But the Boiler has just got to go - We have all been there before but its got to be right or you might end up " in the corner "
IT defiantly does not look big enough - and as Bill and I and perhaps others suggest it "a Constructional Criticism only" not a personal view !  But the quality of building is 5 star
Barney   
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Barney on January 05, 2022, 04:04:00 AM
Well its 2 steps back for me !!  and a in-depth look at marine boilers (images of on Google) and the conclusion is Les has Got it right - it looks like most marine boilers are "short and chunky"
so apologies to Les - at the moment it looks a bit lost on the deck but Im sure it will look better when in its own little room/space with a bit of junk around it ! if that's what the marine people call it
Barney
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Gordon Ferguson on January 05, 2022, 12:48:52 PM
Catching up !

Lovely work Les, interesting comments re boiler ......... think maybe people are basing their views on railway boilers rather than marine ones . Different designs and types railway boilers can be long and narrow in diameter , in fact have to be but marine designs allowed for the development of a short but large diameter boiler with the best known type being the Scotch boiler where for your application a typical size could be around 10 ft in length and a diameter of 10 feet ....... You can understand from diameter why they were not a practical choice for the rail user  :D
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: shropshire lad on January 05, 2022, 02:43:47 PM
Quote from: Gordon Ferguson on January 05, 2022, 12:48:52 PM
Catching up !

Lovely work Les, interesting comments re boiler ......... think maybe people are basing their views on railway boilers rather than marine ones . Different designs and types railway boilers can be long and narrow in diameter , in fact have to be but marine designs allowed for the development of a short but large diameter boiler with the best known type being the Scotch boiler where for your application a typical size could be around 10 ft in length and a diameter of 10 feet ....... You can understand from diameter why they were not a practical choice for the rail user  :D


Every day is a school day . Happy New Year

  Nick
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Les Tindall on January 06, 2022, 01:27:28 AM
Thanks Barney and Gordon for your comments and Bill for the e-mail aswell. After lots of thought (plus a glass or three of something nice and strong!) I have come to the conclusion that the boiler sits too low on the deck, the poor fireman would get back-ache firing it. So I am going to lift it the equivalent of a foot or two. This should then make it look "bulkier" and a better proportion.  I'll let you know.
Les
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Les Tindall on March 17, 2022, 06:58:04 AM
I seem to be modelling VERY slowly on the sternwheeler at the moment, but have attached some progress pics.  The Diesel engine and generator are completed - just need some extra distribution wires to power lighting, electric pumps, etc on board.  Have just done the woodwork and hatches around the engines. Next stage is some more interior detail (work bench, oil drums, cement bags, lights and other stuff).
Les
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Les Tindall on March 17, 2022, 07:00:10 AM
I never know how many photos per page the Forum's website can take - so here are two more.
Les
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: finescalerr on March 17, 2022, 09:19:45 AM
Each post supposedly accepts a maximum of 230kb in total, whether one decent size photo or a few small ones.

Your boat is looking terrific. Slow and steady wins the race.

Russ
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Bernhard on March 17, 2022, 01:57:57 PM
Nice progress. The diesel engine and generator look good.

Bernhard
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Ray Dunakin on March 20, 2022, 08:57:57 PM
Looking good!
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Les Tindall on August 05, 2022, 03:54:38 AM
Its been a while and Daniels item on dredgers reminded me... so SLOW progress on the sternwheel work boat. (its been too hot to model!) The workshop interior has been completed (situated between the engines) and roof put on. There will be a layer of "tar-paper" to be added on the roof (180 or 240 grit sandpaper). The wheel-house and captains cabin are being worked on at the moment, interior detail to be added. The windows are real glass (microscope slide cover glass) with styrene window "panes". Some time ago I started the Ruston grab bucket dredger to go on the front of the boat and have just loosely positioned it for one of the photos.
Les       
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: finescalerr on August 05, 2022, 09:55:32 AM
It is shaping up to be a very attractive and adequate model. -- Russ
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Barney on August 05, 2022, 10:20:39 AM
Amazing its getting more atmospheric by the day and its unusual ! every part seems to blend in together nothing looks out of place
Barney
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Bernhard on August 05, 2022, 01:23:05 PM
Well done, Les. Workshop and machine look very realistic.

Bernhard
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Les Tindall on December 29, 2022, 02:54:51 AM
Still "plodding on". Interior detail added, bits and pieces added, the row-boat is a 3d resin print from a company in the UK called Battlecrafts. The lifebelts and searchlight also came from them. I replaced the resin seats on the row-boat with wooden ones and am carving some oars as a relaxing evening project while sipping a glass of wine (or two!).  Next stage is more detail on the deck (pumps, hoses, etc) then finally the Ruston dredging crane at the bow.
Les
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Bill Gill on December 29, 2022, 06:42:36 AM
Nice to see this steamboat again. It's looking good.
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: finescalerr on December 29, 2022, 12:14:48 PM
The skiff adds to the overall charisma. Satisfactory. -- Russ
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Ray Dunakin on December 29, 2022, 09:08:48 PM
Looking good!
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Barney on December 31, 2022, 09:58:28 AM
Very Nice - Looks a dodgy place to work !
Barney
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Les Tindall on December 31, 2022, 02:07:31 PM
No "health and safety" here! The skiff will be placed on davits and hung off the front of the wheelhouse, a usual place looking at old photos. My usual supplier (Cornwall Model Boats) have just got some shackles/sheaves in according to their website along with some stranded wire for the tensioning cables that prevent the boat bowing. They go over the posts sticking up from the top deck. As sort of inverted railroad coach tensioner.
Les
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Les Tindall on January 31, 2023, 03:49:23 AM
The Skiff has been moved onto davits in front of the wheelhouse, as per a number of old photos of paddlers, and a winch added, thank to Barney for donating that. Next step is add bracing, just received some nice .08mm braided wire for that.
Les
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Hydrostat on January 31, 2023, 09:02:34 AM
That assembly looks quite good! And so does Barney's winch.
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: finescalerr on January 31, 2023, 12:32:37 PM
Volker just wrote what I was going to write. -- Russ
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Barney on January 31, 2023, 01:45:54 PM
Looking good Les and to the others I only supplied Les with the basic white metal kit for the winch - Les is the one who worked his magic on it and converted it int a convincing piece of used machinery !!
Barney
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Les Tindall on November 23, 2023, 05:23:22 AM
It's been quite a while since I last posted progress on the sternwheeler work boat. Now building the Ruston grab dredger at the bow. It in styrene though the two big gears I had 3d printed, the smaller gear is from the scrap box. There are other gears beneath the works which are those cheap plastic ones from China (200 for around £3!) that always come in handy. Currently working on the pipe work for the boiler.
Les   
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Bill Gill on November 23, 2023, 07:41:19 AM
Les, Glad you dredged this project back into action. It's looking very believable.
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: finescalerr on November 23, 2023, 12:04:29 PM
Although progress has been rather sedate, the results are indeed satisfactory. -- Russ
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Rail and Tie on November 23, 2023, 03:36:39 PM
Beautiful work all the way around!
Title: Re: Sternwheel engines
Post by: Ray Dunakin on November 26, 2023, 12:14:55 AM
Cool!