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General Category => Modellers At Work => Topic started by: marc_reusser on February 27, 2008, 07:07:34 PM



Title: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on February 27, 2008, 07:07:34 PM
Jacq,

Figured I would start the thread for future logging discussion and info.

Re. your question in the other thread about the Pino Grande mill drawings, unfortunately I do not have a set, and in regards to the issues with Simpson, I can't help much. I have never had an issue....but I have heard many others have. He is also getting older, and from what I understand has had some family/health issues...so those may be affecting his lack of responsiveness.

In regards to the Pino Mill...Below is a pic of the log dump that I thought you might enjoy.


Somewhere in my stuff, I have copies of some of the original single line drawings/schematic plans of the Hume-Bennett mill (photos in Hank Johnston's books if you have them)....If I recall they include a roof plan, an axonometric of the boiler house, and a floor plan of the mill floorindicating general equipment locations....coupled with the images you could probably assemble a pretty good/ccurate/plausible model of the mill. ....just mentionong it because it might be of interest as a viable alternative to the Pino Grande mill. Hume-Bennett was also a 3' gauge operation.

This is a pic of the Hume Mill and other structures.

(http://www.steaminthewoods.com/Hume/HumeBenLCo_MillandShay_rosborne_copy.jpg)


This is a pic of a log butt being hauled into the mill....it was too big, and they actually cut the opening larger in order to get it in:

(http://www.steaminthewoods.com/Hume/HumeMill_75700_copy.jpg)


Marc







Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on February 28, 2008, 02:11:14 AM
  Marc,

  Russ Simpson replied. New blueprints of the Pino Grande mill have turned up and a review of the plans is ongoing. No plans are available at present.
 
 To be able to give this tread a framework, here some of my basic considerations:
 
 -  The On30 models received from the children.
 -  The long standing wish to built a logging layout.
 -  The positive results of a test with a working model of an unloading ginpole.
 -  The satisfaction from building in scale as accurate as possible structural details in
     a self designed structure and understand the developement process of the past.
 -  The room to built two smaller modular layouts in my 6.00m x 4.00m hobby room
     and still have a large enough working area.
 -   Plenty of time from December onward due to early retirement.

  To make sure that all idea's and choices will be as I have in mind, I normally benchmark my idea's. not against other layouts, but against factual historic information to be able to create a historic and geographical frame in which the layout will fit. This benchmarking process gives also a lot satisfaction. I learn so much from the information out of unexpected corners.

 Untill now I have been influenced by the following:
 - The warmhearted interest and advise from unexpected directions, an aspect rarely encountered in the European modelrailwayscene
 - Finescale Railroader issues
 - Narrow Gauge and Short Line Gazette ( articles about the Red Stag layout)
 - Terrapin Narrow gauge site
 - Chuck Doan's work and particullary his repairshop.
 - Chuck's mentioning of the CHB kits
 - Western Scale kits and Sierra RR workshop book.
  - Marc's website Steam in the woods
 - Hull Oakes photo's from Gary Katz

 
  I am attracted by the Pino Grande mill by the following : 

 -  The geographical isolated position and "footprint"of the mill.
 -  the drive and visit to Lake Tahoe when on a business trip to San Fransisco, Portland and Vancouver in 1976.
 -  Finescale RR logging, mining and industry 2006 -2207  photo's of the mill prior to planking.
 -  The book by R.S. Polkinghorn
 -  A catalogue from Russ Simpson with the plans of the mill
 -  The Sierra West Twin Mill model based on the Pino Grande mill.
 -  An idea how to incorporate the Pino Grande mill building with jackslip, logpond and
 workshop into a layout of 4 modules of 1,20m long with staging.

 Reading through the Pino Grande book and processing information received from many corners, I will try to put together an acceptable "business plan" of my scene of operation.
 I will post this shortly for feedback and comments.

 There are a couple of tempting photo's in Marc's logging site though, like the one of the Hume mill  or the photo of the logpond and the mill of the North Bend Lumber Company
 Marc, thanks for the hint on available details of the Hume Bennet mill.
 Your site contains so much information about a possible complete scene, that further research for information definitely is necessary before deciding the final plan for the layout.

 Rich,

 thank for the waterpowered mill info.  Very usefull addition to my library of waterpowered industries I have already from the european continent.

 Jacq
 
 PS thanks for the logdump photo. This must be before the Mich-Cal operation as the cable to pull the logs of the cars is still across the water. In the Finescale RR are 2 photo's of the same set up showing the dump and the steam winch.







 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Chuck Doan on February 28, 2008, 11:25:08 AM
An interesting topic. The Hume mill has always been one of the more interesting ones due to that multiple arch dam (still there).

I have heard a rumor of a new Mich-cal book, (not another reprint of Pino Grande), but no firm details or estimated arrival. If true, it would be great!

CD


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on February 28, 2008, 01:55:00 PM
Mal Ferrell told me Paul Beckstrom and Dave Braun are working on the new Mich-Cal book. So far they have no publisher. Considering the tendency of the authors to work slowly, the lack of a publishing contract, and the dismal state of the hobby market, we may have to wait a LONG time before the book appears in print.

Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Chuck Doan on February 28, 2008, 04:33:30 PM
Hmmm...guess I?ll stand down the anticipation.  :(


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on February 28, 2008, 07:31:54 PM
.......... and Dave Braun are working on the new Mich-Cal book.........So far they have no publisher.

Russ

HA, HA, HA, Ha, Ah, HA, HA,......oh my poor stomach.....talk about laugh cramps.  Dave Braun can't even ship a part....what makes you think he can actually produce a book.......If I were a publisher I wouldn't want to get involved in this either...talk about throwing money/support into a black hole.  Heck, I lent Dave my early 1900's folio of 50+ fold out, full color grade survey maps (most 3'-6' long and almost as tall), with sections, contours etc,  for the entire proposed central american RR. These are hugely detailed surveys of the countries, with individual maps showing each section of the route, through all the towns and countryside from Mexico to South America...........Was that ever a big mistake!!!! :-\ SOB has never returned it, and when I left messages, he ignored them. He apparently wanted to borrow the info for a book he was working on.......this was years ago...and still no book....nor my folio in my mailbox. Braun is just a worthless P.O.S. and I wouldn't believe any endeavor he is involved in will come to fruition....



Sore Subject.........anyhow.....stepping off my soapbox, and back to the subject at hand.


Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on February 28, 2008, 07:54:23 PM
That wasn't a "SOAPBOX" it sounds just like you see it as what it really is.
And your right let's get back to modeling, it was kind of weird not having you around for the last week or so.  For some reason you seem to keep the ball rolling here.

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Chuck Doan on February 29, 2008, 09:48:05 AM
I thought Marc kept the heads rolling... ::)



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on March 03, 2008, 06:01:09 AM

 Marc,
 after your expressive "speach" here some more ( I hope) pleasant considerations.
 
Quote
Somewhere in my stuff, I have copies of some of the original single line drawings/schematic plans of the Hume-Bennett mill (photos in Hank Johnston's books if you have them)....If I recall they include a roof plan, an axonometric of the boiler house, and a floor plan of the mill floorindicating general equipment locations....coupled with the images you could probably assemble a pretty good/ccurate/plausible model of the mill. ....just mentionong it because it might be of interest as a viable alternative to the Pino Grande mill. Hume-Bennett was also a 3' gauge operation.

 I found some info regarding the dam:   650' span, 13 arches and 61' high.
 Looking on the photo's it is interesting to see that the track and the jackslip rails intersect right in front of the mill. Some more photo's of the surrounds of Lake Hume show a very attractive area to model . Can you send me some footprint and building size dimensions, maybe with some clever compression something attractive, alspite unusual can be developed. As soon as I have a plan made up , I'll scan it,  shouldn't take too long. The plans for the Pino Grande diorama are ready, have to make them presentable for scanning. I'll intend to show both at the same time for discussions on the pro's and con's of both set ups.

 Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Chuck Doan on March 03, 2008, 10:32:25 AM
A quick note: The Hume operation standard guaged shortly before they shut down altogether. Just in case you come across some Hume info where the track guage doesn't compute to 3'.

CD


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on March 03, 2008, 01:39:54 PM
Jacq,

I am swamped with work today, but will try to dig through my files this evening.

The hume operation was just a spectacular historical failiure and hugely destructive and wasteful...even in comparison to other logging operations of the time. It has a fascinating and troubled history.

Logging in the Converse Basin was particularly destructive the size and weight of the redwood tree's often caused them to shatter when felled, and the equipment was not able to properly handle those that didn't. The method of using black-powder to split the trees once felled also proved problematic, as many of them would splinter, thus rendering them useless. It is estimated that the redwood cut during this period totaled 191 million board feet, but only 1/5 of the total trees felled ever made it into the mill.

I have only ever seen one modeler model the Hume operation, that was matthew Graff over on RRL Forums., and I don't really know why (I wont give my true opinion on why) but IMO H-B was a far more spectacular operation, and had much more interesting equipment and infrastructure........granted it didn't have the cableway, but it had a dam, flumes, inclines, skid roads, shays, McGiffert loader, etc.....If I were building a logging RR I would probably choose H-B, or Madera Sugar pine, or if I wanted to be real funky, I would choose Brookings Lumber Co. (another 3' operation, which I don't think anyone has modeled)...of which I have a number of images not yet on the site.


Marc



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on March 03, 2008, 01:51:19 PM
Jacq,

FWIW, here are some photos of the Brookings Lumber Co operation (I don't think anyone has modeled this either...yet it is a perfect fit for the Bman Shay, the SW/CHB Dolbeer, and a shelf format layout).

...sorry for the quality, I just did a quick "batch reduce/reformat, so I could get them up. If you are interested i can e-mail you the larger versions.

Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on March 03, 2008, 01:53:47 PM
Some more Brookings


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on March 03, 2008, 01:57:25 PM
...more BLCo


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on March 03, 2008, 01:58:13 PM
....BLCo


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on March 03, 2008, 01:59:22 PM
.....BLCo.



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on March 03, 2008, 02:04:17 PM
And one More. I have more...some showing the "tent" camp cabins, wooden camp cabins & cookhouse, lumber yard, mill interior, rear of mill with lumber conveyer, the other shay, and some other stuff that I have not scanned...but I figured this would give you an idea. 

Some Equipment data:

Brookings operated two 2-truck Shays, ?star? (sn-154), which was purchased second hand,  and #3 (sn-808) which was purchased new from Lima. (Dont believe the book "Narrow Gauge Nostalgia"/"Narrow Gauge in The Sierra Nevada"...the guy that wrote that, is a complete doofus when it came to accuracy on the Brookings engines and equipment....unfortunately every one that has read the book, parrots the same stupid mistake about there being three loco's.....THIS IS ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT.)

SN No. 154 was built for Butters & Peters, in Ludington MI.; she was a 28 ton (41,000 lbs), 36? gauge locomotive, with 3-10?x10? cylinders, 10? diamond stack. She shipped from Lima on Aug. 7, 1887. http://www.shaylocomotives.com/data/lima/sn-154.htm (http://www.shaylocomotives.com/data/lima/sn-154.htm)

SN No. 808 was purchased new, and was shipped from Lima to Highland CA, on April 16, 1904. She was a 36? gauge, 28-ton locomotive (54,750 lbs.), wood burning, with 8x12 cylinders, and a 12? diamond stack.  http://www.shaylocomotives.com/data/lima/sn-808.htm (http://www.shaylocomotives.com/data/lima/sn-808.htm)

Brookings? rolling stock consisted of 21 to 27, Russel wheel and foundry ?Type 2 Pattern Log Cars?. http://www.steaminthewoods.com/Russel_Catalog/russelcatalog_pattcar2.jpg (http://www.steaminthewoods.com/Russel_Catalog/russelcatalog_pattcar2.jpg)

Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on March 03, 2008, 04:31:45 PM
 
 Marc,

 this info offers a lot of possibilities. Take your time, my work is also calling. The next couple of days are striped suit, white shirt & tie days for some technical meetings. From Thursday to Sunday I have been invited to attend a large exhibition. I thought first for 2009 but  it turned out for coming weekend.
Thursday built up, than 3 days trains ;D ;D ;D ;D and Sunday evening packing and home, it's only 100Km.
This will be the first time the layout is exhibited in Holland and the fifth in total.  I wonder how it will be perceived.
It has been at exhibitions in Cologne 2006 ( Germany), Warley 2006 ( Birmingham), Genk 2007 ( Belgium) and Railexpo 2007 in Paris and I was surprised and honored, that it was regarded as the most beautifull layout in Cologne and Paris with Best in Show Award in Warley and first price in Genk.  I still come across items that in my mind can be improved upon.
 I'll have to organise photo's (taken by many ) to post them in separate threads.

 Jacq

 PS, what's a doofus ? I haven't met that species yet. Your observation of parroting and it's occurances appear to be worldwide. I most problably have sometimes been part of it too  ::)

 Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on March 13, 2008, 03:54:23 PM
 Marc,

 do you have the building dimensions of the Brooking Mill and the Bennet Hume Mill ?

 I prepared a trackplan for a Pino Grande variant and like to work out some variants
 around the other mills.
 I came across a photo of the Mumby Lumber and Shingle Mill in a setting which looks
 very attractive for a logging diorama.

 Jacq
 
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on March 13, 2008, 04:24:40 PM
Jacq,

I have nothing on the Brookings mill size that I know of. Somewhere in my old old logging/lumber trade news papers/magazines from the period there might be an off-chance of a mention of the overall dims., or how what kind of saw, but highly unlikely.  You could probably use the sturgeons mill, or the one that Marty Jones built (see pics below) as a fair idea/template for size/equipment layout.

The Hume mill I am still looking for the sketches. Can you email me your e-mail address, so that I can send the scans directly to you.

That photo opf the Mumby operations has been among my all time favorite images. I have had this photo hanging above my workbench for the past 6 years or more....always dreaming/thinking of some day modeling it as a module...it's a perfectly beutiful compact scene, and has everything one could want for a logging camp module/scene. (If I ever do build a logging scene it will likely be O-scale/Proto-48 standard gauge like the Mumby image...years ago I purchased a 3-truck Willamete loco for this purpose.....and am still on the lookout for a 2-6-2ST or 2-8-2ST.  :)  )


Marc



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on March 13, 2008, 04:36:58 PM
...Some more of Marty's Mill



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on March 14, 2008, 03:27:40 AM
I've seen Marty's work on several blogs, very nice work.
are ther more photo's of Mumby Lumber available or is this view the only one?
There is enough information to design a diorama with all the characteristics.
The only problem is guessing what the mill arrangement was. Incorporating an open style mill like Marty's or PinoGrande is a very appetizing alternative.

Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on April 07, 2008, 02:47:04 PM

   Here some studies for a  16?0 ? x 2?0? x 1?8?  O scale diorama.
  Height above floor to bottom of lower valance  4?6?

  The area in the back is the staging yard for a small variety of trains like
  Fully loaded skeleton  cars,   loaded cut timber ,  small maintenance and
 Crew carrying   in On30


 (http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/197/diorama1qb1.jpg)

  Mill with railway workshops, log dump and part of a mill showing  the sawing
  Process.  All buildings with complete interior. 


 (http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/9161/diorama2wd1.jpg)

Based on Mumby Lumber & Shingle Co photo.  Size, details of buildings
and mill are interpreted. This is an effort  to create the atmosphere and not an
accurate model.  No further details known.


(http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/3181/diorama3et6.jpg)

Freelance mill,  based on several different mills.
This is an effort to show the flow from log to rough cut lumber.



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on April 07, 2008, 03:55:49 PM
Great stuff Jacq!

I have to say that IMO the one based on Mumby really is the standout. To me it offers the most in visual interest, character, and opportunity for modeling diversity. The nice thing is that it also has a prototype basis, and thus also really captures the mood and character of a camp/operation like it.  It also looks like the one that will offer the most oportunities for dramatic/interesting/dynamic photographs and vistas/lines of viewing.


The other two though maybe more prototypical in "scale distances" seem a bit mundane. and lack visual interest....the kind of stuff i have seen in different variations in numerous other places (though I know yours would be different and modeled superbly).

Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on April 07, 2008, 04:46:03 PM
I have a comment about the term "staging yard": I propose we eliminate it from our vocabularies. It is a pretentious Kalmbach synonym for "storage yard".

Even though you happened to use the term, the following tirade is not directed at you, Jacq. It's only here because it's my little forum and you inadvertently provided me with an excuse to show how odd I am.

Since the dark days of that nincompoop, Russ Larson, Kalmbach has embarked upon a campaign of using "cool sounding" words to make simple, sometimes childish, things appear sophisticated, intelligent, complex, and adult. Pretense, however, is merely an idiot's attempt at obfuscation. "Staging yard" is such a term because it attempts to aggrandize the simple concept of playing with trains. And, face it, to some degree we all "play with trains", even those of us with static models!

Another word in our hobby I have grown to destest is "prototype". It has become jargon for any number of better synonyms. Even I use that damned word sometimes and I always regret it. Generally, I prefer "original" or "full size" or some other more descriptive and (again) less pretentious alternative.

I know: This seems to have nothing to do with modeling. But it does have to do with the attitude we bring to modeling and whether we take ourselves too seriously. And that's why those little "Kalmbach words" annoy me so much.

I'm done.

Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: RoughboyModelworks on April 07, 2008, 05:47:35 PM
Jacq:

These are all interesting concepts, though I admit the third is my personal favourite. I believe the mill set up front, the angled trestle, the hidden track will all add greatly to the visual interest. The only concern I have about all the designs is the curve radius. To my eye, there's little that destroys the illusion more than a snap-track like radius. Perhaps a hidden sector plate could accomplish some of the operational aspects you're seeking without disturbing your quest for realism. Are you committed to a 24" depth?

Russ:

OK, I promise to never use the words "prototype," "staging yard" and "Kalmbach" again...  ;) and I vote we add "master modeler" to the list of banned over-used euphemisms as well.

Bill



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on April 08, 2008, 12:48:16 AM
   Russ,
 
Quote
It's only here because it's my little forum and you inadvertently provided me with an excuse to show how odd I am.
 

  I'll correct the words as quick as possible otherwise........... :D  don't blame me if the others will fall back in the old habit of using these words, even here we grew up with Kal... as THE source for american model railroading.

   In England they use the word fiddle yard instead of staging yard.  It is a very good   description for what is happening in this, supposedly for the public invisible, area.
Every one is fiddling there with trains.

   Prototype means in my profession: something new / not tested / not final.
   Using this word while meaning "like the original", "based on the original", is actually not correct ( unprototypical  ;D ;D ;D )
   Similar the use of  "selective compression"  is suggesting that reality is nearly copied.


 Bill,

 only the coloured part will be visible. The 17" - 18" radii to the back are NOT visible
 for the public.
In the third variant, the two tracks are not connected. The logging line is approx 4" higher than the outgoing cut lumber line.

 Marc,

 the diorama based on Mumby offers many possibilities, I agree. It still needs a lot of
 missing info to fill in the voids and questions I have.
 -  Sort and size of mill
 -  type of railway. It appears a short line with a logging operation having track rights.
 -  type of engines and rolling stock.

 The other studies are in that respect less complex as it only covers the actions around the mill and it's own railways.

 Jacq
 
 


 
 

 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on April 08, 2008, 02:30:41 AM
I am so glad you guys understand me. And, yes, "master model railroader" or "MMR" should be banned without further discussion!

Jacq: Your modeling, layout, and plans are excellent. Everything you contribute is just wonderful. And I love your definition of "prototype" because it is so ACCURATE! Thanks.

Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on April 08, 2008, 02:49:48 AM
Had a few minutes to browse through some of the old records I have and came up with this from the Feb 1901 'Columbia River & Oregon Timberman" magazine:

"Mumby Lbr. & Shingle Co. of Olympia, was incorporated.  $10,000,. Thomas Bordeau, F.R. Brown and S.C. Mumby."

I believe they went under sometime around mid 1930's.

If I run across anything pertinent to your design I will let you know.

Marc


PS. Russ....anther term that should be banned from here, as it is a complete oxymoron, is "Master Model Railroader"....I have seen more Cr** from MMR's than I care to recall.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Krusty on April 08, 2008, 05:25:22 AM
Quote
I vote we add "master modeler" to the list of banned over-used euphemisms as well.

What about those of us who've been known to make masters for casting model railroad parts?


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on April 08, 2008, 06:15:40 AM
Russ

I just love your attitude.  You are right it is your little forum and you can add your 2 cents anytime you want.  I totally agree with you on throwing some of those words out.  And of course we all understand you.  Jacq your plans are really coming along nicely can't wait to see the first pictures of layout your going to build.

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on April 08, 2008, 12:19:52 PM

 
Quote
What about those of us who've been known to make masters for casting model railroad parts?

  MMR very rarely produce masters for reproducing parts.  Very often the people who are able to make masters
  do not like the limelights.

 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: RoughboyModelworks on April 09, 2008, 11:56:50 AM
Yes, the truly accomplished craftsmen never use the term "master" to describe themselves. Those who are suspect are the individuals who loudly proclaim to be a "master" whatever and we should stay as far away from them as possible. They are only trying to sell us something.

Bill


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: John McGuyer on April 09, 2008, 05:26:55 PM
Except, of course, for those fishermen who are very accomplished at baiting hooks.

John


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: RoughboyModelworks on April 09, 2008, 07:51:21 PM
Where I come from, we call them wankers?

Bill


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on April 14, 2008, 05:37:55 AM

   Back to the logging and sawmill questions:

   On photo's of the log carriage of the ( open)Pino Grande mill and on the plans of the Hume Bennett mill I notice only 2 head blocks. The length of the carriage appears to be approx similar aroun 22'- 23'.
I read that logs are pre-cut to length ( 16') as the Mich-Cal skeletons are releatively short ( 20'/22') until the 40's when longer cars where used and the logs were cut to length in the pond with a floating steam saw.
Hume Bennett appears to have done the same, the mill layout does not cater for long logs as the logdeck is only 26'6" wide over the roll-timbers.

Is this normal practice ? 

Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on April 14, 2008, 01:53:23 PM
Jacq,

I really haven't an answer to that. I can only assume that the mill equipment sizing was based on the size logs that the woods  equipment and the rail cars could handle and bring out of the woods (and visa-versa).  I think it likely was also impacted by what "time period" they were logging (ie. equipment changed advanced over the years), and how well the operation was capitalized, what kind of timber was being harvested, what was the timber being used for, and so forth.

I know Hume-Bennets redwood operation was a disaster...they lost more wood in the forest than they ever got to the mill. How much of the felled tree was actually salvageable...and how long of a large dia log (or piece of one) could be handled likely played a role in the mill head/carriage size.  Note also the "dolly" used to haul the logs into the mill....the use of such a dolly also would restrict to a how long of a log could be handled.

Note here the size of logs HB was hauling out of the woods.

(http://www.steaminthewoods.com/SkidRoadTrestle_inSierras_CA_copy.jpg)


...you can also see the lengths here in this photo of the pond. Note how very short some of the larger dia logs are.

(http://www.steaminthewoods.com/Hume/Hume_LogPond_others_75700_copy.jpg)



Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: RoughboyModelworks on April 14, 2008, 02:33:10 PM
Very interesting photos Marc? check out the diameter of the logs used for the cribbing in the upper photo. That in itself would be a fascinating scene to model.

Bill


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on April 15, 2008, 01:11:34 AM
 
Incredible what was done to get the logs to the mill. A flume of 58 miles ?? 

 
Quote
...you can also see the lengths here in this photo of the pond. Note how very short some of the larger dia logs are.

  The max deck length inside the Hume mill  was 26'6" , with 6'0" to spare to the wall
 a maximum log length of around 30'0" was possible.
  The carriage deck had a length of 23'0" and scrutinizing the drawing it appears 2 screw type headblocks were used  spaced 12'0" apart.  This means a minimum log length of 14'0" to 16'0" with a max diameter of 9'8" ( doorwidth)
This comes close to the standard of 16'0" used by the Mich-Cal for the logs bucked in the woods. The skeletons were built based on this size until after WW II when 32'0" became the bucking size for transport with the new longer cars. The logs were cut to 16'0" prior to entry in the mill.

  Was / is 16'0" a standard length for lumber or is it a coincidence that both mills ( Hume and Pino Grande I ) have a "similar" length AND use a "dolly" AND have a 9'0" bandsaw ? 

 I have put together the headblocks and knees of the western scale and I am in the process of adding additional details. The no.4 Trout power setworks is an intriging piece of equipment. I have the patent and I am studying the details to be able to understand it's workings and make all additional parts missing in the kit. Possibly I modify the setwork to present a type no 2 or 3 as shown in the Pino Grande photo's.

Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on April 15, 2008, 06:04:03 AM
Jacq

Can't wait to see how you change the carriage pieces from the Westernscale Models Kit.  Sound like you've done a lot of homework on this Jacq.

Marc There some great photo's, Bill your right there some really huge logs under that fume!!

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on April 15, 2008, 02:13:48 PM
Jacq,

You have me at a bit of a duisadvantage...sawmills and sawmill prctice are not really my strong point...I would have to look into the reasons why.  16' was a stadard lenth for lumber. As a rule lumber tends to run in 2' increments.  Without looking/digging into the info I have, I would guess that it was just coincidence.  I really can't speak to the Mich-Cal set-up, as I have never really studied it (I tend to shy away from it and Westside, because I personally find them both over-modeled/over-discussed)....but something to consider on the HB mill is that I would doubt they generally cut finished 16' boards, as they had to flume all their rough sawn boards down to the planing mill in Sanger....such a long board would be quite unwieldy in a flume...especially so in one like theirs where there were numerous curves/bends.

Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: John McGuyer on April 15, 2008, 10:14:35 PM
I'm amazed at the size of some of those logs.

John


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on April 16, 2008, 02:31:01 AM

 Marc,

Quote
I really can't speak to the Mich-Cal set-up, as I have never really studied it (I tend to shy away from it and Westside, because I personally find them both over-modeled/over-discussed

I fully agree.  There is one thing to consider. A ( ignorant) beginner finishes very quickly at one of these 2 shows due to the abundance of info and available ready built or kit material on which he can start out his lay out and the ....... advise on the fora from all who offer their  experiences. Think of reactions on my first questions on the Railroad forum.



Quote
but something to consider on the HB mill is that I would doubt they generally cut finished 16' boards, as they had to flume all their rough sawn boards down to the planing mill in Sanger....such a long board would be quite unwieldy in a flume...especially so in one like theirs where there were numerous curves/bends.

I didn't know the Hume mill was a rough lumber mill and that the cut lumber was shipped by flume. This must have been a wet flume, otherwise a small % would arrive in Sanger in good order for planning.


I am settling for my mill on a mirror image of the Hume drawing with the following alternatives:

- the 10' Sumner head bandsaw from Western Scale ( ready)
- a fitting log carriage with the Western Scale parts  ( in progress)
- a dry deck with scratch built logturners ( drwg in progress, pending footprint mill )
- scratch built live rolls  ( hardware ready)
- scratch built edger ( or use the Sierra West CHB kit )
- scratch built dead rolls and transfer tables
- a resaw bandsaw ( Western Scale ?? )

- 2 cilinder steam engine(s)   CHB ( ready) and / or Western Scale
- scratch build sawdust collect and discharge equipment
- all other stuff on groundfloor level

- filers room details

I am preparing drawings for a (partly) open mill to fit in such a way on a module that it can be displayed independantly.

Designing such a structure from very little knowledge on the topic to an recognisable
model is extremely rewarding  ;D ;D  and takes most of the time
Building is the last chapter in this process.

Jacq



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on April 16, 2008, 04:03:58 AM
I have actually never heard of a "dry" flume  ;) ;D

Your project seems to be progressing nicely. I look forward to photos of the equipment as you build and complete it. 

I agree about the aspect of information for someone just starting or wanting an "easier subject matter/project"....but for me that still makes it mundane/boring....and then if you want to have a little bit of fun/freedom with some aspects, you get all the nitpickers...and those that own a logging book (and it happens to be the Mich Cal Book) all suddenly become "experts" and want to let you know you are not being completely accurate to the prototype. ::)


HB in a nutshell:

Founded in 1889 by Hiram T. Smith and Austin D. Moore as the Kings River Lumber Company, with holdings of over 30,000 acres  in Fresno County (the Millwood area), and an additional 320 acres in adjoining Tulare County

The KRLCo. found that the terrain was unsuitable for the construction of a railroad from the mill to the yards, so from 1889 to mid 1890 a flume (the Kings River Flume) was built in order to carry lumber from the Converse Basin (and what is now part of Yosemite National Park) mill to the lumber yard, planing mill and railroad at Sanger, 54 miles away.

During the depression of 1892 the KRLCo. went bankrupt. It was reopened in 1894 as the Sanger Lumber Co. In 1895 the SLCo. was forced into foreclosure by it's creditors, the lower mill was sold off, and all operations were moved to the Converse Basin.

Logging in the Converse Basin was particularly destructive the size and weight of the redwood tree's often caused then to shatter when felled, and the equipment was not able to properly handle those that didn't. The method of using black-powder to split the trees once felled also proved problematic, as many of them would splinter, thus rendering them useless. It is estimated that the redwood cut during this period totaled 191 million board feet, but only 1/5 of the total trees felled ever made it into the mill.

In 1905, amidst financial difficulties, the operation was sold to a group of Michigan investors led by Thomas Hume and Ira Bennett, and renamed the Hume-Bennett Lumber Co. The HBLCo. operation, proved to be an important factor in the economy of the area.

In 1908, The HBLCo. contracted with John Eastman (builder of the Big Creek Hydro-power System) to have a dam built on Ten Mile Creek (a Kings River tributary). The ensuing lake created by the 61 foot high dam, served as a mill pond and water supply for the flume; which had been extended by 17 miles in order to reach the lake (known as Hume Lake).

In 1917 the HBLCO. went into bankruptcy, Bennett sold his interest , and the company was once again named Sanger Lumber Co.

Thomas Hume poured large sums of money into the operation in order to maintain solvency. George  A Hume managed the company through most of it's existence, and operations continued through 1917, when the death of Thomas Hume, a fire at the mill in Hume, a forest fire which destroyed 7 miles of flume, and a wartime shortage of labor, halted work at the operation.

The Post-war slump dramatically and adversely affected the market for redwood, and the company faced mounting pressure from environmentalists to stop the logging of the Sierra Redwood. More than likely though, the high cost of logging redwoods in the mountains was the primary contributing factor in the demise of the HBLCo. (Sanger Lumber Co.).

Since as early as 1911, the Hume's had made several unsuccessful attempts to divest themselves of their California holdings, and the depression of the late twenties made it no easier. Eventually, George Hume sold off and dismantled the operation in 1927. And after many unsuccessful  attempts to sell the lands they owned,  in 1935, 20,000 acres of SLCo. lands were finally sold to the federal government, and became part of the Sequoia National Forest. The remaining Hume, Hefferan & Co. land holdings in California were sold to the State of California in 1945, after intense pressure and efforts by environmentalists to protect the largest tract of Sierra Redwoods still held by private owners.

The May 1929 issue of the Timberman noted that the Prescott Brick & Lumber Co., of Fresno, the then owners of the old Hume-Bennett interests at Sanger were planning to restart the sawmill there (the sawmill at Sanger had a capacity of approximately 50,000 feet). P.B.&L.Co. estimated that there were between four and five million feet of redwood and sugar pine sinker logs in the pond. Once milled the lumber was to be trucked to Fresno some 60 miles away.

Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on April 16, 2008, 01:20:34 PM
Well Jacq,

Color me wrong; as standard practice, they did ship the longer boards down the flume.

Pic of the "Flume Head" at the back of the mill at Hume.

Marc



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: John McGuyer on April 16, 2008, 09:46:48 PM
History channel just did a thing tonight on the history of logging. They went from showing shays dragging out disconnects to some thing that now cuts down 18" trees in just over 1 second. There was even some six legged walking thing for tough going (Marc would love it).

John


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: RoughboyModelworks on April 18, 2008, 05:23:59 PM
There was even some six legged walking thing for tough going (Marc would love it).

John

Shoot? sorry I missed it. Sounds like Ephraim Shay meets George Lucas  ;) ;)

Paul


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on April 23, 2008, 03:56:45 PM
  The book LOGGING by R.G.Clement came in today.  Thanks Marc for recommending this book and a very nice coincidence that the original 1913 issue is republished by OSO publishing via the NMRA.
  It contains the best background information, making it possible to understand what I am doing. ??? ;D
  Is there a similar type book available about mill practices ? 

   Jacq

 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: lab-dad on April 25, 2008, 11:34:57 AM
Jacq,
Darryl Huffman sells a "book" on CD published by the forest service ( I think) that explains sawmill set up, building and operation very clearly. Well worth the small investment if you wish to do things correctly.
-Marty


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on April 25, 2008, 01:39:15 PM

  Marty,
  thanks for the hint, I have the CD Small Sawmill Operators manual.
  It contains all the info to design and built small circular saw mills with the emphasis after wwII, no or very little steam.   
  No coverage of large bandsaw mills like Pino Grande / Hume Bennett/ Mumby Lumber etc.  serviced by railroads.
 
 Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on April 25, 2008, 08:39:22 PM
Jacq,

Bryant also wrote a book called "Lumber, Its Manufacture and Distribution", that might help. The entire book is availabe for free download from Google Books. 


http://books.google.com/books?id=Z1QDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA171&lpg=PA172&ots=6u7XlPKHD0&dq=Sawmilling+Bryant#PPA1,M1

I was able to download the entire book  590-something pages as a PDF, no problem.

Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: RoughboyModelworks on April 25, 2008, 10:15:10 PM
Excellent link Marc? thanks for posting

Paul


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on April 26, 2008, 05:23:07 AM

   
Quote
I was able to download the entire book  590-something pages as a PDF, no problem.

    Help.............I can't find the button to start the download  :-[ :-[


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on April 26, 2008, 09:08:57 AM
Jacq

It should be right on the right of the screen above where it says about this book review.  Contents!
It should say download PDF-16.4

Jerry

Marc thanks for the link might just have to make a copy of that pretty interesting.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on April 26, 2008, 09:37:31 AM

   
Quote
It should be right on the right of the screen above where it says about this book review.  Contents!
It should say download PDF-16.4
  Nope,  niente, niets. >:( >:(

  I only can get the dutch Goolge variant     :'(  , whatever I try.

  Is it possible someone send me the downloaded PDF file(s)

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: RoughboyModelworks on April 26, 2008, 11:42:59 AM
On its way to you Jacq?

Paul


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on April 28, 2008, 12:51:49 PM
 
  Marc, Paul, 

  thanks for the link and sending the Pdf files.
  A lot of reading to do / going on. These books have the backgroud info I was looking for.

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on May 07, 2008, 10:26:33 AM
   Finished reading the logging book and started on the Lumber book.
   Reading with a book in the hand is far more comfortable than trying to read 590 + pages on screen.
   I managed to get the first half copied double sided and bound and read through the part covering the sawmill machinery and set up.  A wealth of information regarding "working in the US " and sawmill practice before 1922.
  I started with the plans for the mill in 1:48  or 1/4" scale.
  The footprint is ready, I have to redraw it in a lot smaller scale to be able to publish it as the scanner cannot handle items larger than A3 sheets. Maybe at work.
  Ready :  the ground floor with steam engines, sawdust conveyors including concrete covered area.
              the saw floor with head rig, carriage way, log deck, jackslip, live rolls, transfer tables, edger, dead rolls
              and resaw. The filers room cannot be finished until I have details of filing equipment.

  Here a cross section showing relation Bandsaw, carriage, top of jackslip with chaindrive, position and slope of logdeck. Other sections across steam niggers, live rolls, crosstables and edger and entree of green chain are nearly finished.  Several details are drawn for patterns so I can cast my own PU parts from silicon moulds.

 The most time will be taken by preparing NEAT drawings instead of my concept sketches drawn exact to scale,
 like the one below

 (http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/2043/crossectionmilluc0.jpg)

 Jacq
 
  Jacq



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: RoughboyModelworks on May 07, 2008, 11:53:46 AM
Nicely done Jacq ? am really enjoying watching this concept come to life.

Paul


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on May 26, 2008, 06:33:26 AM
  Where there specialised  design / architect / engineering firms around 1900 specializing in mill design ?  Or were mills designed by the firms who delivered the machinery like Allis-Chalmers ( carriages, bandsaws, edgers, re-saws etc. ).  Surely a mill needed to be designed / engineered and materials specified to enable a  good longtime functional structure.

 How much tolerances were accepted like moving timber due to humidity to maintain the sawn dimensions, not to mention the abuse and large forces by loading/ turning logs on carriages. 
I can imagine the very high fire risk caused by high friction in to lineshaft bearings due to misallignments caused by setting of building parts.  Rotting ( struvtural) timbers under the logdeck must also have been a problem.
Reading about the large amount of burned down mills this must have been a large problem.
Comparing photo's of several mills, I can understand why Pino Grande didn't have a fire. All photo's show a clean mill, so I assume this was a company policy.

The Bryant books are a revelation in understanding milling and logging philosophies and - politics, compared to all the advises/stories given and told on fora about the topics.

Jacq




Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: lenelg on May 27, 2008, 10:34:16 AM
I believe that for copyright reasons, Google Books downloads are not available outside the US, I have the same problem (from Sweden). Not that the book is necessarily under copyright here, but it would be difficult for Google to keep track of the status in all parts of the world..

Lennart Elg :?(


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on May 27, 2008, 11:03:43 AM
 

   Lennart,

   you could be right, but " with a little help from some friends ...  ;D ;D ;D ;D  many things are possible.
   Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: chester on May 27, 2008, 06:18:42 PM
  Where there specialised  design / architect / engineering firms around 1900 specializing in mill design ?  Or were mills designed by the firms who delivered the machinery like Allis-Chalmers ( carriages, bandsaws, edgers, re-saws etc. ).  Surely a mill needed to be designed / engineered and materials specified to enable a  good longtime functional structure.

 How much tolerances were accepted like moving timber due to humidity to maintain the sawn dimensions, not to mention the abuse and large forces by loading/ turning logs on carriages.
I can imagine the very high fire risk caused by high friction in to lineshaft bearings due to misallignments caused by setting of building parts.  Rotting ( struvtural) timbers under the logdeck must also have been a problem.
Reading about the large amount of burned down mills this must have been a large problem.
Comparing photo's of several mills, I can understand why Pino Grande didn't have a fire. All photo's show a clean mill, so I assume this was a company policy.

The Bryant books are a revelation in understanding milling and logging philosophies and - politics, compared to all the advises/stories given and told on fora about the topics.

Jacq




Jacq, The town I lived in over in New Hampshire had 7 sawmills within the town confines. Most that I was familiar with  were set up by the mill owners themselves to accommodate the type/make of machinery and size of material expected. Fire is/was a problem mostly from spontaneous combustion of the chip and sawdust piles and even in the coldest winters those piles refused to collect snow from the heat generated within. Alignment of the machinery is always a problem mostly caused by inexperienced or careless workers. Many years ago I worked both as a logger in the woods and as an operator of debarking and edging machines, all for a short time. An experienced operator is worth his weight in gold to a mill owner not only because of his production capabilities but because he knows the limits of the machinery and how to keep it running. Every mill I've ever been to, even those here in Maine now, has had it's own layout and character although all privately owned, I'm sure that big outfits further north and out west that have more than one mill operating have standardized configurations.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on May 28, 2008, 12:38:54 AM

  I shortly intend to order the required scale lumber ( from 12x12 to 1x4) for the mill, workshop,loco shed and other structures / buildings.
 As the amount is considerable, can someone give some advise what is the best place to order?  I can only find Kappler offering large sized timbers in O scale ( > 10x10 ). Are there more firms or individuals offering these large sizes ?
I assume basswood is the best / most economical to order. 
Any suggestions are welcome and very much appreciated. Maybe I have to split the order to prevent supporting the local revenue services  :( :(

I'll post the final layout - and mill plans shortly.

 Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on May 28, 2008, 01:48:15 AM
Jacq,

I by far prefer "Mt. Albert" Scale Lumber ( http://www.mtalbert.com/ )over Kappler; I have found Mt. Alberts quality to be  better and more consistent. I have had major issues with the Kappler stuff, where I have frequently had very poor surfaces with saw marks or heavy "fuzz" and have had numerous pieces with odd "figuring" (especially on the smaller dimension pieces). .........and I really hate to say that, because Kappler is run/owned by David Rygmyr of Oso Publishing/Timber Times Magazine, and I have nothing but repect for him and his publishing work.


BTW.  Beautiful drawings in the earlier post. They look very "period". I had to learn to draw like that back when I started (pencil and ink on linen), because they guy I worked for had originally learned/worked in the 1920's and wanted all his drawings to look like that. They needed to be more than just a technical document, they needed to be descriptive and artistic.

Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: RoughboyModelworks on May 28, 2008, 09:37:11 AM
Jacq:

Mt. Albert Scale Lumber gets my recommendation too. If I'm using commercial scale lumber I don't use any other and have been using theirs since they started business. We used their lumber for kit production. The quality, grain structure, color and dimensional tolerances have always been excellent. http://www.mtalbert.com/ (http://www.mtalbert.com/)

Paul


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on June 02, 2008, 05:26:19 AM

   Looking at Mt Albert's site,  they do not accept payment with creditcards or paypal.
   As I don't like money orders ( bad experience)  it looks like I have to find an outlet who sells Mt Albert which accepts these means of payment. Any suggestions ?

  In the'"Lumber" book by Bryant nor in patent search much info is to be found regarding sawdust collection iwo the bandsaw and the transfer to the boiler-bin/burner area. It is covered extensively in the insurance section but not in technical details.
 I have some info of conveying sawdust from Hull-Oakes and details from the SierraWest H0 mill, but this is not enough to make a detailed design.

 Untill now this is an extremely rewarding project, exploring something that innitially appeared with a hue of "romanticism" and cuteness into a real world with some of the most dangerous professions, resourcefull engineering and hardship due to it's
" temporary" character on the people depending on it. This understanding of the original is enabling me to understand the model I am building. 
 And the modelbuilding is going to my liking  ;D ;D ;D


Jacq
 



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on June 02, 2008, 01:05:43 PM
Let me suggest three hobby stores who probably carry Mt. Albert stripwood and almost certainly accept credit cards:

 1. Caboose Hobbies in Denver, CO (www.caboosehobbies.com)
 2. Coronado Scale Models in Phoenix. AZ (coronadoscalemod@aol.com)
 3. The Original Whistle Stop in Pasadena, CA (www.thewhistlestop.com)

I have dealt with all of them and they are reliable, honest, and efficient.

Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Shadow Pines RR on June 04, 2008, 07:17:55 PM
SPEAKING ON SCALE LUMBER JUST ORDERED A BUNCH FROM WHISTE STOP (GREAT SERVICE AND SHOP, THANKS KIETH. WOOD CONDITION DOES NOT REFLECT ON THE SHOP THAT STOCKS IT)AND IT WAS KAPPLER(OUT OF STOCK MTALBERT) AND BOY THE QUALITY IS BAD. DIFFERENT LENGHTS ,BOWING, FUZZY. I WAS REALLY DISAPPOINTED. MT ALBERT 100% NEXT PROJECT. I'LL POST SOME PICS OF THE TRESTLE I'M CONSTRUCTING.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on June 04, 2008, 08:19:53 PM
Jacq,

If you contact the Whistlestop,  ask For Brian....or if he isn't there Fred (I think Brian is "off" on Wednesdays), they are the owners, and will be the most help, and the most efficient......the other guys there are nice and helpful....but I always try/prefer to, deal with Brian or Fred.

Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on June 05, 2008, 04:56:17 AM
  Thanks for all the info.
  I am presently preparing a detailed list and will send it to the shops to get some price information. I'll put these details also in a post so the  project can be covered in all it's aspects.

  Jacq

  PS 
  Marc, 
  do you have information how many and what type of steam engines were in use to drive the equipment in the  Hume-Bennett mill ?

  Jacq
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on June 12, 2008, 02:04:36 PM
 
  What sort of steam engine was mostly used in North western mills ?
  I know the 2 cilinder engines as made by Western Scale and CHB Sierra west
  Or were Corliss engines more prevailing ?

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on June 13, 2008, 12:25:33 AM
Jacq,

I am sorry to say I have no real answer to the two previous questions. Unfortunately mills are not my strong point.

I would figure HB use fairly standard sized horizontal boilers....figure 1 boiler per stack. CHB used to make a horizontal boiler kit for this type of application (I have one somewhere, I will see if I can dig it out if you are interested.)  How many steam engines they used, I haven't a clue. I can look through the book and see if there is any info or notation re. this.....I there is, I will let you know.

Some things to possibly keep in mind re what equipment was used, or what factored into the choices (There are numerous variables that come into play):
It could be dependent on what distributor(s) was local or regional, was there a local or regional mfr. or foundry that could/did make some of the equipment.  Cost of the equipment, transportation/availability of the equipment, mill builders/owners personal choice/preference, Mill/eqiupment requirements, etc. Though there were regional distributors for specific equipment brands, there were also "general (mill)equipnt/supply catalogs" that might list a variety of sim./same type of equipment from a variety of mfrs.....so then it would come down to what the builder/owner chose.

Another source of eqiupment for smaller and medium sized mills might be second-hand dealers, other lumber companies "going-out-of-business" sale, or purchasing used equipment from other companies.....or if a company was building a new mill and tearing down the old one, they would likely use the still good/usable/adaptable/viable old equipment, and augment it with whatever new equipment they needed......which could come from any of the previously mentioned sources.

..........And remember, loggers were masters of improvisation.......


I think you would really find it interesting to read through some of the old period logging magazines such as the "The Timberman", "American Lumberman", "Gulf Coast Lumberman"......I think there is a lot of insight to be gained not only from the articles, but from the pages full of advertisements, want ads, and for-sale ads.

Marc



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on June 15, 2008, 01:26:45 PM
 
  Marc,

  all those questions stem from the book lumber, logging and sawing-mill info from gazette to yahoo fora and internet searches.  The book offers the best info to be able to calculate required power.
 
 
Quote
CHB used to make a horizontal boiler kit for this type of application (I have one somewhere, I will see if I can dig it out if you are interested.)
 
  I am very interested, contact me privately for the rest.

  Due to cancelling of some special projects (by the changing fuel situation and shift in buyers interest) there is no more work for me in the departement, outside some specialised consultations. As I planned my early retirement at the end of the year, I have been offered dispensation for work for the rest of the year with full pay when my present project will finish in wk 28. Till than, my contributions my be down due to travelling to Sweden, maybe China and various countries in Europe to arrange transfer of work and responsibilities.

 Jacq
 
 
 


 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on June 16, 2008, 12:57:50 AM
Jacq,

I will contact you re the CHB boiler info.

I hope that the work situation is a positive one from your viewpoint. We will miss you during your abscences but will always look forward to your posts when you can.

O.T......but on the "sales" note, I was stunned when I was at the dealer (re. the SR issue) a couple of weeks ago, and the lot was half empty....it looked very odd...when I enquired as to what was going on he informed me that my car's entire model line had been discontinued...at least as far as importing them....they said it was due to the value of the dollar compared to the euro.  I hope it isn't a permanent thing, because IMO it's a great car....on the upside for me at least...it makes it all the more unique around town! ;D (and now I could probably still sell it/trade it in for almost what I paid for it! :o  ;D )

All the best with every thing, and please post when you can.

Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on June 16, 2008, 06:14:13 AM
Jacq

Your posts will be missed for sure.  Just when you really starting to get into the meat of the logging industry.
I'm sure everything will work out for the best for and do look forward to when you post again.
Good luck in everything you do!!

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on June 16, 2008, 07:01:29 AM

  It is only for a couple of weeks and than I will have all the time my wife allows me.   ;D  The worst of coming weeks will be the boring evenings in the hotels.   Maybe it gives me the opportunity to get some drawings done and to win the game with my wireless laptop.  When possible I'll post news and idea's.

  Marc,
  on the cars. That is the problem for US importers and dealers. The factory price is fixed and already squeezed out, so the bigger the difference dollar / euro / crown,
the less cars will come your way.   There are rumours that P1 platform cars ( Focus, S40/V50 and Mazda 5 series ) will be manufactured in the US to offset currency differences and the unwanted large cars and to give Ford the much needed volume.
 Volvo seems to have decided not to come with a follow up of the X90.
 Now that the shares are shifting and the CEO of Ford is losing his support, the idea of Ford selling Volvo is rumoured again. Wait and see. Presently you have the benefit  :)
 
  Jacq
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on July 18, 2008, 04:25:32 AM
  I am glad to be back and return to honest discussions as the past week there was very little to no time to even think about modelling.
  With the present climate in the car industry it was not a very pleasant transfer of responsibilities. It was good to see some old aquintences, but the latest generation managers showed little knowledge of the topics. As I didn't do my presentations with power point or interlinked exel sheets, it was hard for them to understand the status of the
transferred technical problems, the solutions and the financials.
 
 I'll pick up the point where we stopped after organising myself. It might be a bit slower than I want, as presently I am running the household as my wife is not allowed to do anything for at least 6-8 weeks after surgery.

But the best is to be back and enjoy the conversations again.

Jacq
 
 
 
 
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on July 18, 2008, 01:16:31 PM
Jaqc,

Nice to see you back. Glad to see you got that transition stuff behind you.

My best wishes to your wife for a speedy and healthy recovery.

Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on August 29, 2008, 01:07:36 PM

   My wife's recovery is going very well. It leaves me more and more time for other activities. ;D ;D
   
   
  I have prepared the final plan for the mill diorama but cannot reduce it to a presentable readable format to scan.
  To be able to scan the lot , I am drawing each module seperate so it can be presented for everyone to read.
  This larger scale of 1:5 (of 1:48)  benefits me as I can scale dimensions acurate and direct to the modules.
   For this purpose I made my own ruler.

  I have been making some masters of mill equipment, like rollers for the resaw, slab/log turners,
  transfer table and chain details, several types of logkickers, edger.
  These masters will be used to make simple silicon moulds to cast a limited amount of white metal parts.

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on August 29, 2008, 02:28:53 PM
Jacq

Glad to hear that your wife is doing well.

Can't wait to see the first scans and the castings you'll be doing.
Glad to see you back hard at work at this project.

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on October 10, 2008, 06:05:42 AM

  I can get  red cedar scale cut to scale size from fine grained wood.
  Is this suitable or is it better to use baswood.  Your recommendations are appreciated.

  Drawings of the diorama modules are coming along  :), but work is still calling, despite early retirement :(.

  My wife is recovering very well  :)so more time was becoming available, was it not for all sort of mails, phonecalls
  etc. etc about the transfered work. During the transfer everybody said all was clear and signed for acceptance !!!! , but now it turns out that very little has been understood, especially the technical part. >:( >:(

 Jacq

 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: lab-dad on October 10, 2008, 07:15:56 AM
Jacq - Welcome back!
As far as the red cedar I dont know how it would work, but it is somewhat soft like bass.
I have heard from a friend that some guy named Boone wanted to sell a kit for Sturgen's sawmill made with redwood cut at the mill.
I'd say try a few pieces and post for the rest to critique.
-Marty


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on October 10, 2008, 11:42:23 AM
Jacq

Glad the wife is doing okay.

The Red Cedar sounds like it would be really nice I say the same as Marty give it a try so we can all see how it looks.
Hey if you weren't retired you wouldn't have anytime to spend here.  Funny when your working they don't miss you that much, but retire and they wonder where the hell did he go to.  We need help!!

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on November 03, 2008, 07:57:25 AM

  A large bundle of scale 12"x12", 6"x12", 2"x12" redwood lumber arrived.
  After the show coming weekend in Orleans (F) I'll start on the foundations and groundfloor of the mill.
 
  No interruptions from work anymore  ;D ;D ;D ;D 
  Only SWMBO can possibly interfere with all sort of "urgent"questions or odd jobs.  ;)
  Luckily I can turn off my hearing aids. ;D ;D

  Jacq
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on November 03, 2008, 08:52:57 AM
Jacq

Glad to hear that progress will start on the long awaited project.  It will be interesting to see how the redwood works.
I assume all is well with the wife now?

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on December 09, 2008, 06:43:30 AM

   Finally  ;D ;D the first week without any interuptions. To be able to determine the mill size the width of the log carriage was needed. Based on the dimensions of the Hume-Bennet mill, PinoGrande photo's ( Finescale RR special ) and patent information of Trout setworks, headblocks and dogging arrangements, the carriage took shape.
I used some of the Western Scale carriage parts. Final size 23' x 13' as Hume-Bennet carriage.

 (http://images43.fotki.com/v1384/photos/1/1437817/7009225/DSC_2544-vi.jpg)

 (http://images45.fotki.com/v1422/photos/1/1437817/7009225/DSC_2551-vi.jpg)

 (http://images42.fotki.com/v1379/photos/1/1437817/7009225/DSC_2545-vi.jpg)

 (http://images44.fotki.com/v1417/photos/1/1437817/7009225/DSC_2546-vi.jpg)

 (http://images47.fotki.com/v1399/photos/1/1437817/7009225/DSC_2547-vi.jpg)

(http://images43.fotki.com/v1367/photos/1/1437817/7009225/DSC_2550-vi.jpg)

 The setwork tower still need some details, the drive under the carriage has been added based on patent drawings.  Multi dogging arrangement and goosenecks not added yet.  Sawdust, mud and barkrests will be added when carriage will be installed. Details on setwork towe still to be added.

 Drawing of the mill is nearly finished, presently making scale size live rolls / resaw bandsaw / 
 I am still experimenting with the red cedar I received. The grain is too coarse to use in highly visual area's.
 Weathering till now unsatisfactory, most probably to impatient  >:(
 Thinking of making base structure and parts that will be covered in dirt etc from the material in house.

 I hope to post now on a regular basis again.

 Jacq



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on December 09, 2008, 06:53:24 AM
Jacq

Really and outstanding job so far the carriage now sitting along the bandsaw is going to make a great impression on the size of the mill.
Will have to say that Westernscalemodels did a fine job with those parts and the bandsaw to bad he doesn't finish all the other pieces for a mill.
Glad your going to keep us up tp date now.  Hope the wife is doing fine??

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: lab-dad on December 09, 2008, 08:16:45 AM
Absolutely stunning!
Really like the carriage and the Band saw!
I'm looking forward to seeing it installed.
-Marty


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Chuck Doan on December 09, 2008, 09:16:01 AM
Here is a nice album of sawmill pics, some quite beautiful. You were mentioning covering things with dirt, Jacq note all the sawdust accumulation on this mill.

http://www.pbase.com/jimthode/frase_steam_sawmill


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: chester on December 09, 2008, 10:22:07 AM
Beautiful work Jacq, thank you for sharing. And Chuck, thanks for that link.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on December 09, 2008, 01:37:36 PM
That is an exquisite example of machinery modeling, Jacq. Thank you for posting. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: John McGuyer on December 09, 2008, 06:27:47 PM
Jacq,

When I first looked at it, I thought that was the machine you were going to model. Then I looked at the next picture and realized that was the model. Incredible!

John


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on December 09, 2008, 10:59:13 PM
Jacq,

Great to see you back on the project.

Beautiful work on the machinery. I think it will look perfect once finished weathered and in it's final setting.


Looking forward to future posts.


Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on December 10, 2008, 10:33:56 AM
  For the live rolls some 30+ are needed according to the very very usefull drawing of the sawing floor of the
  Hume Bennet mill.  I am gratefull to the good sender.
  I purchased the Sierra West cHB set, but the rolls are too short and do not have the correct diameter.
  It than crossed my mind I could use the bearings and gears, cut the rolls in 2 and insert them in 3/16th OD
  brass tube to make correct 4'0" long rolls with a 9" diameter.  I made 5 samples and made a small casting box to enable me to make white metal or resin rolls. A second casting box enables me to make the matching parts.
 The other 2 rolls will be modified to make the guide rolls of a resaw.

  (http://images45.fotki.com/v1422/photos/1/1437817/7010117/DSC_2542-vi.jpg)
  Parts from Sierra West together with newly made rolls

  (http://images45.fotki.com/v1394/photos/1/1437817/7010117/DSC_2541-vi.jpg)
 
  (http://images42.fotki.com/v1376/photos/1/1437817/7010117/DSC_2543-vi.jpg)
  Test set up with 5 x 4'0" x 9" dia  rolls

  (http://images43.fotki.com/v1386/photos/1/1437817/7010117/DSC_2552-vi.jpg)
  Rolls embedded in kids  :D playing clay ( playdoh) in casting box

  (http://images42.fotki.com/v1379/photos/1/1437817/7010117/DSC_2553-vi.jpg)
  Bottom is removable to enable removal of clay and cast 2nd mold part.

  (http://images46.fotki.com/v1414/photos/1/1437817/7010117/DSC_2554-vi.jpg)
  Exiting times  ??? ???   I have to wait approx 4-6 hours before I can take it out of the box.

  I'll will show the results of the first mold halve tomorrow. I hope it turns out ok.

   Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on December 10, 2008, 03:20:26 PM
You are CRAZY! :o ;)

Eagerly awaiting the results.

Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on December 11, 2008, 02:31:09 PM


    A setback.  :-[ :-[        After cleaning the mold carefully it all looked very good.

    (http://images44.fotki.com/v1420/photos/1/1437817/7010117/DSC_2555-vi.jpg)

    Than I applied per instructions the seperator spray and prepared the pooring of the second mold halve.
    I especially came out of bed early to do this, so I would be able to see the results this evening.

   Taking all out of the box, there was no division between the two mold halves. :'( :'( :'(
   Praying with a small knife didn't help and when they came appart, the seperation was NOT where I planned it.
   More .... :'( :'( :'(. 
   Being an optimist, I will start again after getting advice from my supplier or/and suggestions / hints / tips  from
   the forum here  :D :D

   In the mean time I started on the sawing floor structure  (134' 0" x 48' 0" )
 
   Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on December 15, 2008, 06:33:50 AM

  In the weekend I a new effort was made to make the moulds and yes...... ;D  it came out very good. 8)
 
  (http://images42.fotki.com/v1365/photos/1/1437817/7010117/DSC_2680-vi.jpg)

  It looks crude, but I will be able to get the required amount of castings in white metal with little rework.
  As soon as I can find an old pan and a camping cooker I'll start casting. Material will be plumbers solder as the
  parts are only for static display. The mould can stand up to 450° C for a short period.
  To get the air out, a small shaker table ( originally for paint mixing) will be used.
  As an alternative I'll try 2K PU glue when metal casting is done.

  Jacq
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on December 20, 2008, 06:00:41 AM

   The sawing floor beams in place.  The complete floor will be a sub-ass'y, so I can built, detail and finish it with all machinery, sawdust and use / abuse traces on my workbench. It will also enable me to built easy accesible the lower area of the mill with the steam engines, belt systems, sawdust conveyors and scenery underneath. The loghaul and top-ass'y will also be built as separate elements. This way maintenance and accessibility for photography is possible.  Joist spacing is 2'0" centres  Building size 128'0" x 48'0" with green chain platform to suit the module edges. (module plan to be added shortly.)

 (http://images42.fotki.com/v1377/photos/1/1437817/7043953/DSC_2681-vi.jpg)

 (http://images46.fotki.com/v1396/photos/1/1437817/7043953/DSC_2684-vi.jpg)
 
 (http://images48.fotki.com/v1411/photos/1/1437817/7043953/DSC_2692-vi.jpg)

 (http://images48.fotki.com/v1410/photos/1/1437817/7043953/DSC_2685-vi.jpg)

 (http://images45.fotki.com/v1200/photos/1/1437817/7043953/DSC_2686-vi.jpg)

 (http://images45.fotki.com/v1199/photos/1/1437817/7043953/DSC_2690-vi.jpg)

 The saw under construction will be converted to a resaw with scratch built guiding mechanism
 based on photo's.
 Building details will be based on Hume-Bennet and Pino Grande photo's.
 I have started with planking. In the back I will use the 2" red cedar planks, in the front the
 ordered MtAlbert basswood will be used. The cedar visible grain is too coarse but will hardly be
 visible when all the machinery, wear and tear and all the sorts of dust are in place.

 Jacq
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on December 20, 2008, 08:13:06 AM
Jacq

This is starting out as a excellent build.  The layout is perfect spacing etc.  Thanks for the update and the outstanding photo's.

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on December 21, 2008, 04:35:48 PM
  With the beams all in place, I started with the planking. All planks will be individual scale 12'0" long or cut to suite.
  The planks till now have been cut on a very simple jig with a hobbyknife and squared on my sanding disk.
  To be able to lay the planks square to the beams, one 24" long "plank" was alligned and glued at the position of the inner rail carrier of the carriage.

  All transverse beams are glued to 2 longitudinals, that will fit behind the long'l beams on top of the posts from groundfloor level. These 2 longitudinals are glued at 4 points to a drawing with grid and positions of important machinery.
 
 To have a look what effect is possible with colors on the red cedar, a single wash of  shoepolish with alcohol mix (recommended by CCCrow as alternative to silverwood stain) was applied and sanded with 600 sandpaper.

 ( Any suggestion as how to get some 8oz bottles Silverwood to Holland ?)

  (http://images43.fotki.com/v1383/photos/1/1437817/7043953/DSC_2693-vi.jpg)

  (http://images46.fotki.com/v1396/photos/1/1437817/7043953/DSC_2699-vi.jpg)

  (http://images46.fotki.com/v1433/photos/1/1437817/7043953/DSC_2696-vi.jpg)

  (http://images46.fotki.com/v1432/photos/1/1437817/7043953/DSC_2697-vi.jpg)

  (http://images47.fotki.com/v1398/photos/1/1437817/7043953/DSC_2694-vi.jpg)

  (http://images48.fotki.com/v1409/photos/1/1437817/7043953/DSC_2695-vi.jpg)

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Belg on December 21, 2008, 07:56:38 PM
Jacq, your project is really starting to take shape I wonder though don't you think for structural strength the floor boards would be staggered  and not all break on the same floor joist? You could say on one seam that is where they added an addition and did not bother to stagger but I think otherwise it would be structurally incorrect. Pat


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marklayton on December 21, 2008, 08:21:43 PM
Pat's observation about random length flooring has merit.  I've been in several 19th-century wooden-floored industrial buildings, and all had random-length floor boards.  Doing so makes for a more rigid overall structure.  On the other hand, sawmills tended to be less permanent, moving as the woods were clear-cut in the local area.  Under those circumstances, the builders might have worked to less stringent structural methods.

Mark


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on December 22, 2008, 04:41:10 AM

  Pat, Mark,

  as engineer  I was expecting remarks about the board positions.
  In structures where a floor or hull ( boat) add a large amount to the longitudinal strength, I fully agree with you.
  Here the supporting structure comes from he post foundations, the longitudinal members laying on top of them and the transverses laying across over the longitudinals.

  In this case, staggered floorboards in the are's shown do not add much to the strength of the structure. The very large openings for the bandsaws, Hill- and Simonson type logturners (to be added) and  loghaul drive demand a different supporting structure than in p.e. in the green chain area, where the loadings on the structure are in a complete different order.     

 Take also in account the live expectancy of the lumber in way of the log haul and the log deck, where soaked logs are dumped and turned and the structure is exposed to very wet conditions year round , it is logical that an easily replaceable board and nailing pattern is used.

 A number of photo's of the Pino Grande mill ( and others) do show board patterns ending on the larger cross beams. I will scrutinise more photo's on this matter to see what is practice in the area around the edger and towards the green chain.

 Jacq
 
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Belg on December 22, 2008, 06:57:54 AM
Jacq, glad to see you had it in mind. I think your thought about being able to change boards easily has some merits, I would love to see some of your pics for the inspiration if you are so inclined. Thanks Pat


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on December 23, 2008, 04:47:37 AM
 
  Pat,

  there are a couple of photo's in Polkinghorns book Pino Grande, in the Finescale Railroader logging, mining and industrial special(s) about the Pino Grande by Mallory Hope Farrell, the photo archive's of the Washington State Uni. and photo's found while searching the web.
  Clear evidence is hard to findt and as have been pointed out, each mill followed it's own rules in building and because of all the machinery seating, dirt and sawdust it is difficult to distinguish board ends. In case of the McLean mill in Alberny the planks are laid across the structure.
For some drawings http://bcheritage.ca/drawings/sites/site3/site3.html (http://bcheritage.ca/drawings/sites/site3/site3.html)
I have a large number of photo's of this mill from the web, but I cannot find back the URL.

 Looking at the kind and directions of loads applied to the structure, especially in way of the logdeck with the logturners, the 2" planks do not add much strength.  A 16'0" long and 6'0" dia log of approx 10 tonnes rolling down a 12° slope is generating a heavy loading on the rollway and turners square to the direction of the planks.

 On another topic of the planking. The photo's investigated, are not clear in the nailing of the planks. Are they nailed at every joist or only at the ends and in the middle of the length ?  Plank length 12'0" with a joist spacing of 2'0".


 Jacq



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on December 27, 2008, 12:38:06 AM
Jaqc,

In US wood frame constuction of the period, board were as a rule generally staggered. It is no more difficult to replace a board in a staggered plank format than an un-staggard.....you still have to measure and cut/trim, regardless.

Staggered planking does actually help in two ways. It does assist a slight amount with lateral shear (the idea is to create a form/type of shear panel/plane) and it also helps by not placing all the end loading of a plank in a single joist (by staggering them, the non spliced joist offers a bit more resistance  to excessive deformation of the joist....hard to explaind without a diagram....but it does help)...also, by staggering the planks, you are not stressing and weakening the joist in the same manner as one that has two carry all thends....because with the ends, comes twice the amount of nailing (2+ nails from each board end) from the boards into the joist.....where-as in a staggerd formation, the through joist has just one set/pair of nails....this not perforforating a single joist quite as much. If one were to do non staggered framing, it would be best to either use a wider joist, or double-up the joist inder the seam.

....however, there was probably an exception to everything.

In US wood frame construction, (regardles of how you are doing your board layout), the boards are nailed into each and every joist.


Marc

PS. I know I have several e-mails to get back to you on....sorry about the delay...just a lot going on. Also want to talk to you about the mill boilers before you start on them, I have an idea re the parts & details for them that may help you.






Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Belg on December 27, 2008, 08:18:57 AM
Jacq, I could never have said it any more eloquently then our friend Marc has. Again please don't take my comments as a negative critique it just seemed that for someone like yourself that does so much research it would be strange to not follow period construction methods. I did a Google search for sawmill interiors and found very little in the way of a clear shot of any floor, all old B/W pics and so much dirt, sawdust, chips, I'm not sure there was even a floor under there. I will continue to watch your progress and enjoy the patient research you do. I'm adding this link just because I found it to be very nice lot of pictures, http://flickr.com/photos/upshift/2477623992/in/set-72157604560161098/

Have you or anyone else found any good referance shots of the big wheel lumber carts? I had posted a question a couple of years back and really still don't understand how they were loaded or worked. Thanks Pat


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: chester on December 27, 2008, 10:13:46 AM
Pat, thanks for those photos.
I think that spacing of joints and nailing of the floor boards to the joist had a lot more to do with the random lengths used for the flooring rather than anything structural. Having lived in a town surrounded by 7 sawmills, I noticed that for their own uses, they exercised frugality and tended to use lesser quality lumber for their own wood construction. Saving the longer lengths and premium lumber for sale. Frankly in my observations, most of the pits were on solid ground and had the machinery mounted on individual concrete pads just big enough for the machine. Of course my experience doesn't go back that far in time and is limited to northern New England.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on December 27, 2008, 04:53:09 PM

   Thanks for all comments,  staggering board ends is a standard practice in Europe too.

   I am familiar with it from te laminated structure in a number of yachts I designed and built.  3mm thick strips
   first diagonally 45° than 45° in the other direction, than parallel to the framing and finally parallel to the waterline.
   
The choice to line up the board ends as I did was based on some vague photo's, the 12" wide joists at 12'0" spacing and remarks in the book Lumber about replacements in the logdeck area due to moisture and wear.
 :-[ :-[ more probably my glasses were dirty when scrutinizing old photo's on screen  ;D ;D :-[
 
 
Quote
....however, there was probably an exception to everything.
    Thanks  ;D ;D

 I doubt if there will be much visible of the board ends and their positions when all machinery, dirt, bark rests, sawdust, etc. will be in place.

 As I have run out of scale lumber and have to wait for the arrival of a shipment, I am preparing the next actions.
 I have not received all material to start casting the live rolls, hopefully next week.
 In the meantime I worked out the functioning of the simonson logturner and have started in brass and styrene
 with the arms, bearings and cilinders.


  (http://images48.fotki.com/v1406/photos/1/1437817/7066977/simonsonlogturner-vi.jpg)

 Here a 1:48 cross section showing the top of the 3 different arms and canting hook together with arms and cilinder in open and closed positions to determine strokes and cilinder lengths.  A planview is in the making.

 Marc,   I'll soon post the module drawing with mill and associated buildings , incl boiler- and power house.
 

 Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on December 28, 2008, 12:22:07 AM
In western mills ...especially of this size, they seemed to use prety good quality lumber. There was the feeling that the wood supply was endlesss. There were even millions of top grade pure clear lumber used (wasted) in building even the trestles and flumes for these operations. The photos of the Hume Bennet mill under construction show a very high quality and standard of construction. Companies like HB for example  even used perfect logs for their skid roads and cribbing....note also the nice quality of lumber used in the shacks in the background.

(http://www.steaminthewoods.com/SkidRoadTrestle_inSierras_CA_copy.jpg)

A contractor friend of mine at on time purchase very large and long 12x12, 16x24 & even some 30" deep timbers that were salvaged from an old abandoned sawmill (they were part of the building) in Northern California.....they were perfectly clear, and still straight and true, after all these years.

Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on December 28, 2008, 11:13:04 AM
What did he do with them , Marc ? Turn them into 4x2s ? I hope not , because I guess they would have been nicely seasoned by then .

  Nick


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on December 28, 2008, 02:34:39 PM
Jacq,
Nice seeing the progress on this build.  I'm afraid I'm with some of the others that the boards would probably look better staggered.  Even if there was a propotype practice of doing it like you started out doing, it doesn't seem to have been overly common, and hence it just doesn't look right to the eye.  Pat, the link to those abandoned sawmill shots were pretty cool, nice colours, details etc...unusual to find something unoccupied for so long, yet still so "clean" looking and almost maintained.  There were a few shots of repaired floor sections in amongst them, so Jacq, your floor isn't entirely incorrect.  Marc, thats a decent crib bridge, especially when you get the idea of proportion with the couple of guys with their horses in the bottom left of shot.  I always like to see shots like this, that could make potential excellent diorama pieces.  Not so much for the actual subject, but more to have the original pic on hand so that when people comment on the likes of "but they wouldn't really build a bridge with logs that big", you can prove then wrong.  See Jacq, prototype for everything...

Dan


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on December 29, 2008, 01:40:11 AM
What did he do with them , Marc ? Turn them into 4x2s ? I hope not , because I guess they would have been nicely seasoned by then .

  Nick

Na, he's a nutty Swiss trained Master Carpenter.....he went and used them to do a timber frame house (I think he was having an Amish moment)...all mortised & tennoned fastened with wood pegs (no nails)....I guess just like a I an equally nutty Englishman I seem to know.  ;)  ;D ;D.


Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on December 31, 2008, 04:38:32 AM
   
    Following sketches show the arrangement of machinery and drive points.
   
   (http://images42.fotki.com/v1371/photos/1/1437817/7080308/drivepulliesoverview-vi.jpg)

   The sawdust conveyor set up at ground level
   (http://images45.fotki.com/v1428/photos/1/1437817/7080308/sawdustconveyors-vi.jpg)

   I think that seen the required power to drive all these items, 2-3 drivelines are necessary.
   The headrig , first row of live rolls, 1-2 transfer tables and slashersaw  drive 1
   Loghaul, resaw, live rolls around resaw and transfer table                   drive 2
   Edger, live rolls cut off saw and sawdust conveyors                          drive 3
   This means 2-3 steam engines or Corliss engines ? 

   The machinery arrangement is. according to info I gathered, a standard set up. Only I do not know the position of cut-off saw and slasher saws.

  The question on the number of drivelines is based on power requirements of machinery as given in the book Lumber and the amount of power to be transmitted to the differen users. I have a nice old handbook on the theory of beltdrives. 
  Any help to work out a correct driveline system, waste conveyor layout and requirements for power house is very much appreciated.  This enables me to lay out the groundfloor with bearings, seats and steamlines.

  Despite the bleak prospects, all a rewarding and healthy 2009.

  Jacq

 

 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on December 31, 2008, 02:28:22 PM
    Here one of the photo's with non staggered boards :

    (http://images45.fotki.com/v1427/photos/1/1437817/7043953/354979pr-vi.jpg)
     Hull-Oakes mill (photo from HABS-HAER)

    Secondly, a very interesting historical overview of logging in northern california.

    http://www.trainweb.org/foothill/logging.pdf (http://www.trainweb.org/foothill/logging.pdf)

    Jacq

   


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on January 02, 2009, 03:53:49 PM

   Here the set up of the first module with the sawmill and associated buildings.

   (http://images42.fotki.com/v1373/photos/1/1437817/7089307/Module1-vi.jpg)


   (http://images47.fotki.com/v1402/photos/1/1437817/7089307/Module1ArtistsImpression-vi.jpg)

   

   Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on January 03, 2009, 02:33:42 PM
Jaqc,
Nice composition with the artist impression views, and I like the use of the angles on the layout.  Leaves lots of guiding lines for the eye to follow. The scene also has a good sense of ballance, with the busy mill at the end, bit of "tranquility" with the floating logs waiting in the middle pond, and then the managers house? overseeing operations from the opposite bank. The end view into module 1 will make for an interesting examination into the workings of a sawmill too, especially to the general public if this is shown at exhibition.  Nice framing proportions too with the use of the valance (I gather this is like a boxed in diorama style presentation).  Please continue...

Dan
PS nice old Hull-Oakes image too, good find.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 04, 2009, 03:42:20 AM
Jaqc,

I agree with Dan's comments.


BTW...I found the images below on the web, and thought they might be of interest/use.


Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on January 05, 2009, 08:36:12 AM

  I am picking up the PUR foam boards which will form the base of the mill module today, pending on what the weather will be after a night of relative heavy snow, with all it's travel consequences.

  Marc,  sorry to read of your furry friend.
 
Quote
Also want to talk to you about the mill boilers before you start on them, I have an idea re the parts & details for them that may help you.
  Please send a mail with detail / suggestions. Is the Western Scale horizontal boiler a suitable model?
  Pipe fittings are also offered by WS, you mentioned Grandtline. What do you recommend as I don't want to make my own. The first batch cast rolls did not come out satisfactory, only 2 were fully cast the rest was had too many imperfections, air and not fully filled cavity. >:( :-[

  The boiler- and power house visible on the mill and dam photo of the Hume-Bennett appear to be concrete constructions. Is my observation correct?

  Dan,
  the artist impression shows 2 of the 4 modules/segments of the layout. As you remarked, the set up offers a lot of viewing lines and details to atract the attention. The boiler- and powerhouse are open on the viewing side ( cut open along the module line) showing boilers, steamengines and all related piping.  I start normally with 2-3 modules to be able to allign the track correctly. When I am satisfied, I start with the mill module as it has the most details to be finished.

 Jacq

 
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 05, 2009, 02:54:28 PM
Jacq,

I believe the sierra west staionary boiler would be too small (from what I can recall about the SW boiler). In the photos aboce, I believe the sepia toned image is from a california sawmill (it was on ebay with a bunch of other california logging photos)...so this is about the size and type you would want for your mill.

Have a rare CHB kit that makes a sim boiler to the one in the lower right of the catalog page......I will take some photos of the parts for you......I think some of the parts would be useful to you if you wanted to try and recast them (especially some like the smokebox end with boiler to stack transition....and maybe one or two other parts....the rest you could easily fabricate from styrene to maybe better approximate the sepia image boiler end.

For pipe fittings and such:  I believe Wetsern Scale sells a box of only pipe fittings (not sure)....or if not, he's a nice guy, and might make up a bag of them for you if you asked (Russ knows him well). They are white metal, and some do require a bit of cleaning at the seam lines.  Grandt really only makes the small (1.5 to 3cm proto dia) lines and fittings for brake rigging under RR cars....but they do come in useful for many of the lines.....these are plastic, and do require some fiddeling with to correct the flash, and often badly offset seam lines....I generally try toi use only the elbows, joints, t's and valves, and use brass or .020-025 styrene for the lines themselves.  PSC makes a good amount of fittings for their locos ...so there are a number of sizes, shapes, valves, etc to choose from......If you have their On3 Loco Supplies catalog, they should be in there......However....I have never been a fan of their brass castings (the plastic are better).....I feel they are often times crude, deformed, heavy on the seam lines, roughly cast, off-set at the seams etc....and require a lot of cleaning and rework....but they are pretty much the only game in town for some of the parts needed.

Some items like pipe flanges at mounting points or joints, can be made using the punch & die sets from Waldron, and from Micro-Mark.........I recommend buying both (The Waldron "sub miniature" set, and the Micro Mark one)as they are all different sizes, and allow for more range/flexibility.


Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on January 05, 2009, 05:58:43 PM
Marc,

the Sierra West boiler is too small.
The CHB horizontal brick boiler has my interest, particullary when it has  parts.
The Western Scale horizontal brick boiler measures 4.5"x 2.0"x2.5" but the boiler and brick encasing is in O scale one single hydrocal casting and not useable for my plans.
The punch and die sets are definite on my list. I now use a hole punch for belts etc. ;D ;D  results are not spectacular but usable (H0)
I'll contact Bill Gustavson or he can supply me with usable pipe fittings etc. to do the steam lines to the cilinders of the logdeck equipment and the boiler and power house. The mill equipment ( bandsaw, carriage parts and pulleys)  and a lot of tools for the workshop are from Western Scale.


Jacq



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on January 14, 2009, 12:30:59 PM
Marc,

 sorry to read about the closure of "steaminthewoods" and consequentely the controversy about the origin of images.     I spend a lot of happy hours with it.
 First reaction was:  there goes the main reference for my logging project.

 I hope it is not affecting the information stream here on the forum and with this topic.

Quote
Have a rare CHB kit that makes a sim boiler to the one in the lower right of the catalog page......I will take some photos of the parts for you......I think some of the parts would be useful to you if you wanted to try and recast them (especially some like the smokebox end with boiler to stack transition....and maybe one or two other parts....the rest you could easily fabricate from styrene to maybe better approximate the sepia image boiler end.

 This will definitely help to detail the interior of the boiler house.

 Here some progress:
 The carriage way is in place, the rails still need to be spiked/bolted
 The steam cilinder is ready to be installed.
 The resaw is making good progress.

 Innitally I build up the second Western Scale bandsaw and intended to use it as a resaw.
 Than I noticed from several sources that resaws were normally smaller in diameter than the headsaw.
 At a certain moment the matter bothered me to such an extend that I took the second model apart and rebuilt it to suit a smaller wheel variant.
 

 (http://images45.fotki.com/v1430/photos/1/1437817/7131837/DSC_2758-vi.jpg)

  A comparison between the 10'0" rim and the 8'0" built wheel.


 (http://images43.fotki.com/v1438/photos/1/1437817/7131837/DSC_2756-vi.jpg)

  The Wheel is built up as a laminate from 0,25mm x 3,2mm styrene strips around a glass bottle with an OD of
  48,2mm ( one needs some luck sometime  ;D ;D ) This gives with 4 layers a final diameter of 50,2mm ( 2")
  or 8'0" in 1/4 scale.  The final layer is 0,13mm thick and covers the holes drilled for the spokes.


 (http://images45.fotki.com/v1428/photos/1/1437817/7131837/DSC_2755-vi.jpg)
 
  Detail showing the laminate built up. Each time the correct diameter was determined and the joints staggerd in relation to the previous layer.

 (http://images43.fotki.com/v1321/photos/1/1437817/7131837/DSC_2760-vi.jpg)

  Wheel and modified base on top of a patent drawing of a resaw guide and feed. This part is currently under construction.


 (http://images43.fotki.com/v1439/photos/1/1437817/7131837/DSC_2776-vi.jpg)

 A comparisson of the bandwheels with sawblade in place. I reduced the width of the 15" blade to 8".
 The lower wheel, drive pulley, lower sawband part and bearings will be made as a separate part to facilitate assembly in the mill building.

 (http://images42.fotki.com/v1434/photos/1/1437817/7131837/DSC_2781-vi.jpg)

 The carriage tracks are in place. To position allign and keep them in place to glue, caused a lot of "not so nice"  :-[ words.
 Nails / bolts still to be done. Steamcilinder also fits in place.
 Amazing that the carriage is moving all the way   :D ;D


 It is not going as fast as I intended as the delivery of ordered materials is NOT making any progress, I am waiting already more than 4 weeks for scale lumber, pulleys bearings and a large batch of Evergreen stuff.
 I have started playing around with the geografics of the module and the foundations of the buildings.

 Jacq




Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on January 14, 2009, 01:57:09 PM
The smaller band saw is a work of art and a meticulous, precise replica. I am very, very impressed. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 14, 2009, 04:40:22 PM
Jacq,

I have had this issue with this gentleman for some years. There were 20 or so images that were his, and were posted with proper credits and his approval (did a rough count when this came up last time with him).....as far as the claiming that there are others I am using some without credit....... he never has pointed out which image(s) he feels are in question....rather just makes a blanket statement.  We have been competeing collectors for images in the past. We clearly own many of the same images... between his (he notes as having a collection of 200,000 or such) and mine there is bound to be overlap (especially since many old images were often printed in multiples and then sold/distributed). Had he actually pointed the individual image(s) in question, we could have resolded this easily/quickly....he never has....until then we will likely continue to disagree.  :-\

No it will not affect my assistace/contribution to this project or others that can benefit. Though all new images posted will at the very least be heavily watermarked.


Your Bandsaw is just superb! :o...truely beautiful work. Thanks for the SBS on how you ent about it...very helpful.



Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Chuck Doan on January 15, 2009, 09:15:57 AM
Beautiful work, Jacq! THat wheel is amazing. You are very brave.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on January 15, 2009, 11:29:13 AM
Jacq

Just outstanding, a perfect wheel.  Not to mention the rest of the saw.

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: lab-dad on January 15, 2009, 01:41:56 PM
Great information, I love hearing how other "cobble" things together.
Thanks for sharing Jacq.
Did you do the spoke placement on a rotary table or lathe?

I've seen the original one, it's a big S.O.B!
-Marty


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on January 15, 2009, 02:46:07 PM
Jacq,
Very nice modification of the smaller wheel, good patience with the spoke work and great colouring of the machinery...good used but not abused tones!  Getting back to the decking boards issues of previous posts, I was visiting my brother-in-laws sawmill that he owns (in the Otway Ranges of Victoria, Australia).  His mill is very much a restoration work in progress, with plans to oneday run it as something like a educationthing/museum style attraction for school groups etc.  Its built on the side of the hill and previously had no flooring as such, just the dirt slope to work on, so he has dug in various levels (by hand mind you!) and started to deck in various work platforms.  Interestingly, but probably more due to his lazy construction nature of "that fits so I'll use that piece", he has done much of the decking similar to yours, mostly unstaggered using plenty of recycled timbers from elsewhere in the mill.  A few deck areas had a bit of an uncomfortable degree of bounce in them, but he assures me he thinks they will be "safe" because he knows which ones are a bit soft!!!

Dan


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on January 15, 2009, 04:37:48 PM
  Marty,

  the wheel was spoked on a discarded piece of plywood. Firstly a circle of 2" was drawn, a sheet of clear overhead projector sheet was pinned to it and a hole drilled in the centre to take the wider boss. The rim was than glued on 4-5 points to the sheet with PVA glue to keep it in place relative to the boss. The holes in rim and the boss ( already drilled  0,6mm ) were alligned with 0,5mm spokes every 90° and when all lined out correctly glued with CA. Than a bottle of beer was opened and......the rest of the spokes were added alternating ( the same procedure as spoking a bicycle wheel ) When all were in place and the glue dry, the wheel was removed from the sheet and the protruding spokes cut and filed. A 0,13mm thick strip was added on the circumference to hide the spoke ends.

Quote
Did you do the spoke placement on a rotary table or lathe?

 I am, by choice, a sort of a kitchentable modeler. I have a very good quality basic set of tools like rulers, small drills, soldering iron, files ( plenty of them) etc etc.  Electric tools are 2-3 small drill units ( Proxxon and Dremel) and recently a 6" sanding disk with variable speed ( min 250 rpm)  A drill stand with movable table is in the planning.  All drawing work by hand, no more CAD work ( used  Catia IV and V, Unigraphics, Pro-Engineer and Autocad)  It has become a sport to find simple constructions and solutions with basic materials.

So cobbling things together might be the right word  ;D ;D ;D

Most important: I am gratefull to have a good eye for dimensions and noticing, maybe better said sensing, very small deviations and very stable hands.
 
 I am able to see a deviation of less than 1 - 1,5 mm on the gap between a carbumper and surrounding parts or the gap/flush of a cardoor some 20 - 30 m away from me.  My wife has forbidden me to point out such items when travelling together in the car.

When starting my career as MSc some 37 years ago, the first 6 months I worked in the 1:10 drawing office to learn drawning ships lines and parts 1:10 with a 0,1 pen, with an indication what the measure side of the line was.  Here 1:10 templates were produces for the optical system of cutting and bending machines of 1:1 parts.
 After that I worked in the assembly workshop for 8 months to get the feel of assembly, welding, milling with small to very large milling machines, casting small and large parts ( 15'0" propellor blades) and work on the slipway and drydock "feeling" how al those small and large parts became a ship, before I was allowed to start on my job in the design office.  This unique experience to be able to learn what challenges and decisions mean forms the base of my approach to all projects I have been involved in. 


Dan,
 the board ends coincide with the larger 12" joists and they feel very stable :D :D.   
 I dunno when I have put in the nails    :D :D??????


 Any suggestion on simulating the nails in the floor boards. I recall some remarks from Chuck regarding nail imitations in 1/4 scale.

 Jacq



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Chuck Doan on January 15, 2009, 06:22:31 PM
I would consider a 0.3 mm drafting pencil. I have tried .008 wire in .008 holes, but I don't know how masochistic you are!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 15, 2009, 07:23:21 PM
Jacq,

I am pretty anti nailhole...unless they are done with the subtleness and skill that Chuck does them....so my recommendation if would be not to make them too deep...merely a slight indentation....because remeber...in real life these are not nail "holes"...but rather nail "heads".....and most nail heads are either flush or at most slightly below the line of the wood surface.....or sticking up from the surface (especially on walls where there is a lot of board expansion and contraction from natural drying, and the climate.

....maybe Chuck can chime in on this....but if using the .3mm pencil lead (which is a good recommend.), you could always sligtly touch the end of the lead in a dark grey-black/red-brown oilbase color prior to making the impression...this will give the dark indication of a nail head....and if touched with some turpentine will cause the paint/color to seep/bleed along the grain & around the head...discoloring the boards sim to what happens in real wood. This though needs to be done subtley or in moderation otherwise the thing could end up looking like a Leopard. How much paint, the color and the varying effect acheived with different turp amounts should be experimented with first.


Just my two cents....


Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: RoughboyModelworks on January 15, 2009, 08:49:58 PM
Jacq:

I have to agree with Marc and Chuck on the nailholes and nailheads. You have to remember that from a prototype viewing distance, looking at a prototype structure, nailheads generally aren't visible, unless the heads are 1" dia. or bigger! Whatever you do, make it subtle and minimal. I've seen a lot of models ruined by overzealous nailhead treatment.

Paul


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on January 16, 2009, 03:03:42 AM
By coincidence I used a pencil to create nailheads on my last model. I was careful to avoid creating an indentation; I just made a very small, pretty subtle dot. Each is invisible from more than a few inches away and not very obvious from a closer distance. They were among the few details I was happy with. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: chester on January 16, 2009, 09:04:03 AM
I agree, I've always thought nail heads were often overdone, especially in smaller scales.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Chuck Doan on January 16, 2009, 11:11:03 AM
I should add that the individual wire nail heads I did in 1/16th scale worked well, and were easily seen from normal viewing distance. The few I have tried so far  in 1/48th look OK close up, but quickly disappear as you back away from the model. If you start them, you will likely need them everywhere. I will probably still do some on my O scale store, but only a few here and there more as a suggestion.

Dipping the pencil tip in color is tricky. Hard to get a nice repeatable dot. I usually come back with a light touch of stain or Silverwood to kill the shine of the lead, but preserve the dark dot. The shiny lead spot can maybe simulate a galvanised nailhead, but you'll have to judge for yourself if it looks right. Shiny things are very tricky in miniature, especially if surrounded by a lot of weathered flat surfaces.

I started using that tiny pencil back in my board drafting days. Hell of a thing to draw with, but great for nails!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: lab-dad on January 16, 2009, 01:46:41 PM
Jacq,
I used a .3mm pencil, then sharpened to a fine point for nail heads on my sawmill.
I however did them before staining the wood.
The result was/is very subtle and only noticeable if you actually look for them.
-Marty


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on January 18, 2009, 06:59:25 AM
 The 0,3mm pencil methode I have used before (also in H0) but nver satisfied me. It demands a lot of constraint not to push the pencil too deep. With large amounts, it is easy to loose the finesse needed to do it properly, even when very experienced. The feeling for it blunts very quickly.

   
Quote
I should add that the individual wire nail heads I did in 1/16th scale worked well, and were easily seen from normal viewing distance. The few I have tried so far  in 1/48th look OK close up, but quickly disappear as you back away from the model. If you start them, you will likely need them everywhere. I will probably still do some on my O scale store, but only a few here and there more as a suggestion.
 
  Chuck, thanks,  I had the same feeling. 
The total amount of nails on one floor is around 9000.  To maintain a constant quality on indenting is in this instant very very difficult. Your last idea for the O scale to apply them selective appears to be the way to go. With some elementary mock ups of machinery and loose sawdust in place  it will be possible to determine exposed floor area's where nails will be visible. To achieve convincing nailheads in such spots will not be too difficult.

Russ,
the results of your experiments in the post on paper models with the inkjet boards do show very convincing nailheads. I cannot find further details on how you achieved these results as the paper boards look
more real than the wooden boards. I love to experiment with this methode for the smaller buildings that will be placed on the layout, as I haven't worked with paper in this way before. Do you have easy accessible details? 

Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on January 18, 2009, 03:01:31 PM
Jacq, I probably should send you a JPEG with my board artwork (in a color of your choice). It does look better than plastic and can look as good as wood if the artwork represents painted wood with no more than moderate weathering. If you want peeling paint or similar effects, then Chuck's methods are far more realistic because the smoother texture of printed paper becomes a problem.

I cannot easily explain how to create the inkjet artwork because my method requires a lot of knowledge of Photoshop.

One other thing I could send you is a copy of my original article on modeling with paper. I have a PDF. Let me know what you want and I will send it by e-mail.

Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on January 18, 2009, 03:51:11 PM

   Russ,
 
   please do so....  I am realy intrigued.  As most buildings on the diorama are built from untreated lumber, I like to try this out. the ones that have some paint do get Chuck's treatement.

  thanks
  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on January 28, 2009, 04:38:17 PM
 
  Here the next step. The lumber has not arrived yet, so I started on the logdeck and the related machinery.
  The plan I have is mentioning as loading / turning machinery  a log kicker, a Hill logloader/turner and a Simonson logloader/ turner all operated / controled by the sawyer.

  The book Lumber taught me what these items do and looked like, photo's of Pino Grande, Mumby Lumber and others and a search in patents showed details and function. Based on this information I designed for the mill's layout matching equipment.
For the possible weights of the timber I checked structural dimensions ( a good exercise after so many years) and built up from evergreen parts all bearings, seats, shafts etc. into functioning models. All parts can move like the original. Steam cilinder sizes based on the usual pressures were also checked . In all some good fun  ;D ;D

 Small items are under construction and will be added when the deck and Simonson loader are fixed.
 The parts under the floor like the Hill loader, steam cilinders for the logkicker and loaderbars will be added when the groundfloor pillars are in place.

(http://images44.fotki.com/v1409/photos/1/1437817/7066977/DSC_2797-vi.jpg)

(http://images14.fotki.com/v336/photos/1/1437817/7066977/DSC_2796-vi.jpg)

(http://images46.fotki.com/v1446/photos/1/1437817/7066977/DSC_2784-vi.jpg)

(http://images47.fotki.com/v1403/photos/1/1437817/7066977/DSC_2785-vi.jpg)

(http://images45.fotki.com/v1431/photos/1/1437817/7066977/DSC_2786-vi.jpg)

(http://images47.fotki.com/v1400/photos/1/1437817/7066977/DSC_2787-vi.jpg)

(http://images46.fotki.com/v1452/photos/1/1437817/7066977/DSC_2788-vi.jpg)

(http://images35.fotki.com/v1163/photos/1/1437817/7066977/DSC_2789-vi.jpg)

(http://images45.fotki.com/v1428/photos/1/1437817/7066977/DSC_2790-vi.jpg)

Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: John McGuyer on January 28, 2009, 06:39:01 PM
Jacq,

Really nice work on those arms. What kind of material are they made of?

John


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 29, 2009, 12:23:36 AM
A always....Beautiful, clean and precise work!

I just noticed the bandsaw pattern on the floor boards...great attention to detail...one that is generally not seen in this scale of models. How did you create the effect?

Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on January 29, 2009, 02:52:54 AM
Stunning so far. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on January 29, 2009, 04:59:36 PM

  Thank you for your kind comments,

  John,  all parts are made from styrene and some brass tubing.
           the arm's body is made from 1,0mm sheet and all 5 filed to shape with a small template.
           the flange is a strip of 2,2mm x 0,5mm ( 4" x1") glued over the circumference and joined in an area not visible when in place.
           the boss is made from 2 2mm round 4,6mm tube representing a keyed and dogged fixation.
           
  Marc,  the bandsaw marks are a lucky result of the way the redwood supplier cut the 2"x12"'s I assume. I'll
            ask him.

   Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: John McGuyer on January 30, 2009, 09:45:23 AM
Jacq,

I particularly like the way you did all the webbing and bracing on them. You didn't just chop out an arm, you gave it detail. Those little things are what makes a model exceptional.

John


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: RoughboyModelworks on January 30, 2009, 08:15:03 PM
Excellent work Jacq... I'm really enjoying seeing this project come to fruition.

Paul


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on February 03, 2009, 08:13:43 AM

   I have started on the plans for the gang trimmer saw.  Can anyone help me with discarded / blunt / old  miniature blades of 1/2" to 7/8" diameter ?  Even 1-2 will be very usefull as base for photo etching the rest. Otherwise I'll have to prepare a drawing of a blade to be able to make an etch negative. This will also be used for the 5'0" edger I have drawn.
 In all 6 are needed in the edger,  12-14 in the gang trimmer and  approx  8 in the slasher gang saw.

  The logdeck is finished, some small parts of the loader to be added.  I have chosen for a loghaul car like used at the Hume-Bennett mill.  This appears to me more attractive than a jackslip with chain. 
 Foto's will follow shortly. 

 I received the book "They felled the Redwoods" last week................  It looks very little changed in the world regarding ignorance, greed and fraud....

 Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on February 03, 2009, 01:40:45 PM
Jacq,

Let me check regarding the blades. It is a tough size, as most of the fine blades used by Dremel & such are larger in dia.


Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on February 03, 2009, 02:53:22 PM
Jacq,

Here's what I have found.

(http://home.earthlink.net/~rbadesign/SAWS.jpg)

The photo etch fret on the left is from 'Echo Mountain Models', http://www.echomtn.com/08CAT.htm#SAW2 (http://www.echomtn.com/08CAT.htm#SAW2) it is their "O-scale Logging Saws Group": the 2 big blades are 1.15" in dia, the mid size blade is .75" dia., and the 2 small blades are .50" inches in dia. Its' not as many as you need, but I have 2 of these saw sets that you can have if interested (Though I would need to keep the hand saws from one of the sets..and one set is missing one of the large blades.)

The saw blade on the right is a miniature circular saw blade from "Gyros" http://www.gyrostools.com/Miniature-Circular-Saw-Blades-Miniature-Circular-Saw-Blades---Specialty/c15_46/index.html (http://www.gyrostools.com/Miniature-Circular-Saw-Blades-Miniature-Circular-Saw-Blades---Specialty/c15_46/index.html).....they are not cheap for the amount you need............not that it helps you, but I have one "used" blade at .917" in dia. that you can have.

Voyager models makes Photo etched blades on various sizes & coarseness, unfortunately they have a rib pattern etched on them. http://www.spruebrothers.com/Nexternal/tools---cutting.htm (http://www.spruebrothers.com/Nexternal/tools---cutting.htm)



Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on February 04, 2009, 03:02:59 AM
Although it's probably not nearly as helpful as what Marc is offering, I did a couple of CAD drawings of 1:32 scale circular saws for my friend, Richard Christ, several years ago. I could re-scale them and send them to you. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on February 04, 2009, 04:00:11 AM

  Russ, 

  that would be great. 
  Thanks

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on February 07, 2009, 08:06:56 AM
   Marc,

   the blades from Echo Mountain I found some time ago. I mailed them, but no respons. There was a fret on ebay not so long ago, but the price became too high. These are the ones i was looking for.
 Your and Russ his offer will help me greatly, as I can make a master drawing for laser cutting or etching with a variety of diameters.   
 An A4 full of blades cut in high quality paper or etched in nickel-silver will give me the quantity needed and more for the sawfillers room. Plasticising the paper might be an option, but not necessary after painting.
 When this works out, anyone interested in a sheet can contact me.

 Here some photo's of the logdeck and associated machinery.  Logstop/kicker with complete Simonson logturner. 
 On the photo's I discovered some clean spots,  >:(  to be covered when all get the final treatment.

  Visible steam piping and control attachments still to be done, but ...............there comes a time in every project that the engineer needs to be shot.................... :D :D


 (http://images46.fotki.com/v1453/photos/1/1437817/7066977/DSC_2798-vi.jpg)

 Amazing that it all fits  ;D ;D


 (http://images45.fotki.com/v1450/photos/1/1437817/7066977/DSC_2799-vi.jpg)

 Logturner arms down, log can be loaded.


(http://images42.fotki.com/v1447/photos/1/1437817/7066977/DSC_2800-vi.jpg)

 Logturner arms up, turning hook retracted


(http://images45.fotki.com/v1429/photos/1/1437817/7066977/DSC_2801-vi.jpg)

 Logturner hook ready to pull log from carriage, turning it.


(http://images46.fotki.com/v1452/photos/1/1437817/7066977/DSC_2803-vi.jpg)

 Hook fixation and point details


(http://images45.fotki.com/v1430/photos/1/1437817/7066977/DSC_2808-vi.jpg)

 Log lifting bars, used during turning logs. They move up and down by cams linked to an independant steam cilinder operated by the log turner control lever


(http://images46.fotki.com/v1452/photos/1/1437817/7066977/DSC_2817-vi.jpg)

 4' 3" x 16'0" long test log ( scraped broomstick handle  ;D  )  on the logkicker.
 Logturner ready for return of carriage


(http://images42.fotki.com/v1447/photos/1/1437817/7066977/DSC_2818-vi.jpg)

 Log ready to be turned


(http://images42.fotki.com/v1447/photos/1/1437817/7066977/DSC_2819-vi.jpg)

Log turned and ready to be pushed back onto the carriage


(http://images42.fotki.com/v1447/photos/1/1437817/7066977/DSC_2820-vi.jpg)

Log ready for the next slice.


Simonson loaders seem to be exclusively used in the north west  sawmills according to Bryant.
Details were taken from original patents found on Google and photo's

I have added the drawing again to show the function:

(http://images43.fotki.com/v1384/photos/1/1437817/7066977/simonsonlogturner-vi.jpg)



The drawing of the Hume Bennett mill is showing the position of the Simonson logturner together with the Hill logturner or "steamnigger "  This turner is mainly used when turning already "slabbed" logs.

 A model of this turner, steamcilinders for kicker and lifter bars ( including piping ?? ) will be added when I start on the ground floor.
 Final weathering with sawdust, barkrests and dirt will be added when sawing floor is complete.

Jacq





Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: scrappy1 on February 07, 2009, 08:28:08 AM
man that great looking as a newbe to this I'm astonished how detailed and your ability to scratch build  amazing


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on February 07, 2009, 02:20:42 PM
Please save some of the construction photos in hi-res. Your sawmill's construction will make an excellent article for a future Logging Annual. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on February 07, 2009, 02:32:46 PM
Jaqc,
Congratulations on your insanity!  I knew I was looking at a superb model in the making, but I wasn't expecting so many actual moving parts to be involved.  Bloody brilliant stuff, got me wondering how much other stuff in the mill will be modelled with animation to it.  I've seen plenty of sawmill models as "frozen moments", but the ability to pretty well demonstrate the process of round log to flat board in this model is going to the next level.  It might make for an interesting little photo display of the S-B-S process of milling timber, to accompany the model when it goes to show, like an educational thing for the viewing public.  In some ways, it almost seems a shame that when you do a model like this, you have to then put a roof on it and take away half the detail you know is really inside.

On the topic of the saw blade hunt,  Sierra West has a few blades in its sawmill machinery re-releases (the old CHB stuff).  The edger probably has a few etched blades in it, and the head saw came with a sheet of lasercut paper blades in various sizes.  The echo mountain stuff Marc has provided looks very good, the SWMW stuff would make a good "plan B" if needed, and I'll put my hand up for a sheet of blades if they come available ;D

Dan



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on February 07, 2009, 03:59:44 PM

   Russ,

  all photo's are in JPEG ( fine) L   around 2.5 -3.0 Mb. ( Nikon D70s )   
  I can redo some of the last series and newer ones in RAW format for you, however I do not have the software to read it on my computer.
 
  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: michael mott on February 07, 2009, 11:58:17 PM
Hello Jacq as a newbie here I have really enjoyed reading through this thread, outstanding modelwork! and inspiration for us who are watching this model develop.

regards Michael


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on February 08, 2009, 07:52:06 AM
      Dan,

     that is a good idea, showing the different steps in a sort of powerpoint presentation. 
     My intention is to have the following movable so the working can be explained/shown: 
     1. transfertables between roller lines
     2. rollers in resaw showing process of cutting 1"-2" boards from cant with return line.
     3. edger process
     4. saws in gang saw
     5. car on loghaul.
     6. Hill logturner
     1, 2 and 5 are under construction,  for 3, 6 all drawing work is done and for 4 drawings are being made.
     Line shafting and conveyor layout on groundfloor will start after saw floor is ready.
     Boiler- and powerhouse are in the planning

     The sawmill will have an open character, only the long backwall will be covered, so all machines, belt drives, steamcilinders with piping and sawdust.slab conveyors are visible. 

    Most of the research and planning has been done already, Marc named it properly a project, so the approach is accordingly. Nothing is taken for granted and must be understood by myself before I commence building.

   Michael, glad you like it, I hope to have the complete diorama fully described here on the forum and ready for the exhibition rounds in November 2010.

   Here some more photo's with details of the Simonson logloader.

  (http://images42.fotki.com/v1447/photos/1/1437817/7066977/DSC_2815-vi.jpg)

  (http://images28.fotki.com/v1031/photos/1/1437817/7066977/DSC_2814-vi.jpg)
 
  The cilinders are made from telescoping styrene tubes, the final tube is brass to achieve the correct O.D.
  This enables the piston rod to move straight in the cilinder over the full range
  Flanges are 0.5mm disks with NBW with a o,1 disk in between to represent the gasket.
  The main shaft has a crank near the middle to provide room for the Hill logturner.
 
  (http://images28.fotki.com/v1029/photos/1/1437817/7066977/DSC_2810-vi.jpg)
  The floor as it is now without all the details. Planks still to be added to be treated differently to represent
  sun exposed boards in contrast to the boards inside and not reached by the sun.

   Jacq

   
   


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marklayton on February 08, 2009, 07:56:21 PM
Jacq -

Each time I look at the photos, more details keep popping out.  This time it was the iron wear strips atop the timbers, and the grease stains around the pillow blocks on the log kicker that caught my eye.  Your attention to detail is an inspiration.

Mark


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: RoughboyModelworks on February 09, 2009, 11:32:39 PM
Wow... this just keeps getting better and better Jacq. Really impressed with your thoroughness and high standards of workmanship. It's a rare treat to watch this project come together.

Paul


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on February 10, 2009, 07:07:12 AM
Jacq

Excellent modeling.  The detail work is just perfect.  This will be a real show stopper.

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Chuck Doan on February 10, 2009, 02:43:43 PM
Must agree with above comments. Good stuff, fun to see come together.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: sierrawest on February 12, 2009, 04:10:29 PM
Jacq:

Outstanding work. Really like what you are doing.

Please contact me off list and I will be happy to cut any sawblades you need.

Brett


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on March 02, 2009, 05:21:09 AM
  Waiting for material to arrive from US.  Or I am too impatient or post is realy taken longer as usual.  >:( >:( >:( :o
  I started with less interesting and much neglected work, the base. It is essential to create a well build module base, keeping in mind ease of access during landscape building, sturdiness and leightweight for transport and simplicity during building up and taking apart at shows.  Appearance is also a very important factor when presenting the diorama.

  The basic form of the modules.

  (http://images44.fotki.com/v1448/photos/7/1437817/7290191/modulebase-vi.jpg)

  The module is made from 6mm  birch plywood with suitable stiffeners.  The back is a double wall with holders for the
  valance cantilevers and electric conduits.  When working on the landscape / structures or for maintenance, they can easily be removed, normally they are an integral part of the module.
  The valance incorporates all lights and can be moved out 100mm to improve lighting of the front structures and landscape. 
 Top is made from (3-4mm) foamboard or reinforced plastic board.  Transport cover at front is from the same material.
 it is surprising how much dust it all collects during a weekend when thousends pass by)
 At the sides two 6mm plywood transport covers can be clamped on with hand openings for easy lifting.
 Modules can be stacked 2 high to fit in a small trailer or van.  Legs have at the top an adjustable channel. This makes setting up level easy without crawling all over the place. Power is via 2 connectors, 1 x 230V AC for light and transformers and 1 x for 16VAC and DCC signal lines.
 At  exhibitions / shows it will be possible to have all set up and trains running in about 1 hour.

 The material has been ordered with a local lumber yard and will be delivered exactly cut to size AND square  :D :D so it will be not too hard to put it all together ( in the daytime  ;D ;D) 
 
 Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: LeOn3 on March 02, 2009, 12:55:12 PM
Jacq,

I'm curious  how this is gone end as a exhibition layout. I know that the total weight for a diorama is to keep it as light as possible. My layout that I had in Utrecht is not big but is still to heavy to lift it alone on it's legs. For my next project I will try to avoid too mucht weight for the construction and try to make the buildings even better as it now is.

Leon


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: RoughboyModelworks on March 02, 2009, 09:31:54 PM
Jacq:

Looks like a good construction plan. I'm really looking forward to seeing pictures as construction progresses. Birch ply is such a great product. I've used 1/2" birch ply for modular layout construction, forming girders essentially of 2 pieces of ply laminated together around 1x2 poplar spacers. I then drilled a series of 2" dia. holes through the girders to reduce weight and allow for wiring to pass through neatly. They were incredibly strong and stable when assembled and surprisingly lightweight. I developed a system of using 1/2" aluminum plates on the mating ends of the modules with machined, self-centering assembly pins through which assembly bolts would pass. Two pins with bolts would join two modules. My modules would go together with a tolerance within .002" eliminating the need for sections of jumper rail to connect the modules. Setup and tear down was dead simple. Electrical connections were made through multiple-conductor plugs & sockets similar to the flat cable connectors in a computer.

Paul



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on March 04, 2009, 12:24:52 PM
   The first impression of the resaw with feeder.
   Not painted yet ( primer) and small details like rolller drive, carriage drive and cilinder piping / valves  and saw details to be added.  The weather is not giving a helping hand to make some decent photo's.

  (http://images44.fotki.com/v1461/photos/7/1437817/7297933/resawhb1a-vi.jpg)

  The drawing of the feeder attachment.  The carriage can move to facilitate saw change. The driver roller holders can move to saw different sizes and the rollers furthest from the saw are able to compensate uneveness.

 

 (http://images21.fotki.com/v760/photos/7/1437817/7297933/DSC_2852-vi.jpg)     

 Overal view of the model.   


 (http://images45.fotki.com/v1450/photos/7/1437817/7297933/DSC_2853-vi.jpg)

 
 The coming days it all will be finished and weather permitting photo's taken of assembly and subassemblies. 
 The model can imitate the basic adjustements, such as sawing spacing and sawblade change movements.

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: RoughboyModelworks on March 07, 2009, 03:24:38 PM
Looking great Jacq. I'm really impressed with the amount and quality of work you're producing in such a short time.

Paul


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on March 08, 2009, 11:03:18 AM
  Leon,

  it is not so much a matter of the weight.  The biggest obstacle building up the layout will be the size of the module or segment. The modules of the H0 layout I can lift by myself, I can pick it up from the back as the centre of gravity is within
the range of my grip.  During a visit I'll show you how I can handle this.

Paul,
 
  thanks for the nice comments.  The biggest challenge is always to understand the subject under investigation.
  When the "spirit" or "soul" of the setting/structure/machine/diorama is understood,  the choice of materials is mainly determining the time.  Further it is a matter of dicipline and preventing taking shortcuts.

Here photo's of the resaw ( looking at the photo's I discovered some parts still to be added and shiny spots to be covered  >:( >:(0

The complete resaw feeder is built from 0.13mm , 0,25mm , 0,50mm sheet, several diameter tube/rod from Evergreen
and 2 small pieces of code 55 rail.

(http://images28.fotki.com/v1031/photos/7/1437817/7297933/DSC_2855-vi.jpg)     


(http://images16.fotki.com/v301/photos/7/1437817/7297933/DSC_2856-vi.jpg)


(http://images45.fotki.com/v1451/photos/7/1437817/7297933/DSC_2857-vi.jpg)


(http://images45.fotki.com/v1451/photos/7/1437817/7297933/DSC_2858-vi.jpg)


(http://images42.fotki.com/v1466/photos/7/1437817/7297933/DSC_2860-vi.jpg)


(http://images27.fotki.com/v990/photos/7/1437817/7297933/DSC_2862-vi.jpg)


(http://images47.fotki.com/v1478/photos/7/1437817/7297933/DSC_2865a-vi.jpg)


(http://images45.fotki.com/v1450/photos/7/1437817/7297933/DSC_2867-vi.jpg)

Roller carriage drawn back to facilitate bandsaw change.


(http://images29.fotki.com/v1016/photos/7/1437817/7297933/DSC_2869-vi.jpg)

(http://images18.fotki.com/v266/photos/7/1437817/7297933/DSC_2877-vi.jpg)

Roller carriage moving into operation position


(http://images18.fotki.com/v86/photos/7/1437817/7297933/DSC_2871-vi.jpg)

Size comparisson of 8'0" resaw


 (http://images45.fotki.com/v1451/photos/7/1437817/7297933/DSC_2876-vi.jpg)

(http://images18.fotki.com/v266/photos/7/1437817/7297933/DSC_2877-vi.jpg)

 Position comparisson details


 Jacq
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on March 08, 2009, 06:16:26 PM
Jacq

Outstanding detail.  Beautiful workmanship!!  Gets better with every visit.

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: PuckHog on March 10, 2009, 09:07:12 AM
Jacq,   This thread is awsome!  Please keep posting as I'm needing to build a sawmill at some point. Are you planning on some form of animation?    Randy


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Franck Tavernier on March 10, 2009, 01:16:50 PM
Jacq,

Outstanding job!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on March 10, 2009, 05:47:07 PM

  Randy,

  I tried to run the large saw, but it turned out dangerous. As the blade thickness vs possible tension  ratio is not comparable with the 1:1 version and the wheelrim surface and blade do not have matching curvature, the blade runs off
the wheel very quickly. As it is razor sharp, you can ubderstand my concern.
 Another point is the very difficult aligning top and bottom wheels and balancing each wheel radially and axially. 0,5 -1,0 gram weight ofset creates already problems.

 One item that will be shown and explained later on is a working ( remote controlled )  log unloader,  unloading skeletons and disconnects. I haven't made up my mind yet what type,  Hume-Bennet, WSCL, Pino Grande or Madeira Sugarpine. The last one used some very attractive variants over the years.

But first finish the mill with surroundings on module 1.  Presently I am making 40+ live and dead rollers. the small parts of the transfertables and the base with table for the trimmer saws.  A very large amount of small parts have been finished already.  Still waiting for the shipment scale lumber ordered 5 weeks ago.

Jacq
   


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: PuckHog on March 11, 2009, 07:36:16 AM
Jacq,  Can understand the cocerns with saw!!!   So many Questions but I will be patient and enjoy what you post!   Randy


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on March 30, 2009, 01:28:02 PM
  I haven't posted as planned as someone during the one of the last exhibitions damaged on the H0 layout the small green silo's to the extend that on OntraXS they didn't work correctly anymore.  For the large exhibition 22-26 April in Dortmund I decided last week to built new ones with an improved drive and increased  angle of repose.
 Over the weekend all missing materials arrived, the new silo's were operating satisfactory, layout and rolling stock are having the last maintenance done, so the mind is slowly changing to the mill, sawing equipment and moduleframe again.

 The live and dead rolls castings turned out unsatisfactory so I have cast today some in PU 2 components normal and metal glue.  Tomorrow I'll open the mold and see what the results will be.  When they are as required I'll post some "how to"s 
 
  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on April 06, 2009, 07:08:18 AM

  Here some results of a quick "casting session"
  Casting white metal turned out a deception. The material cooled / blocked before filling all cavities, most prbably due to the length of the rolls ( scale 4'0")  Kitchen burner as heater, material melted ok, but from heat to mould was taken too long.

  Than I tried 2 component 5 minute PU glue.  I mixed a batch and filled the 2 halves up to the division line and put the halves together.  Curious, I took after 10 min. the moulds appart and a 5 rolls came out easily. No release spray used.
  With the next batch I was carefull to watch for air, as the shown pars do have airholes, not serious and easily fixed.
  It also turned out the parts were surprisingly flexible. Leaving them for another 48 hours solved that too and now I have 5  castings showing an acceptable amount of detailing.
 
  (http://images49.fotki.com/v1457/photos/7/1437817/7407986/DSC_2884-vi.jpg)
 
   mould halves with first parts  2 painted with humbrol metallic

 (http://images47.fotki.com/v1477/photos/7/1437817/7407986/DSC_2883-vi.jpg)

  airbubbles visible, bearings with bolts and bevelgear have come out acceptable.

  (http://images47.fotki.com/v1478/photos/7/1437817/7407986/DSC_2882-vi.jpg)

  Sorry for the photo quality,  too much preparations for Intermodellbau.

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on April 14, 2009, 02:31:44 AM

     now that all preparations for the large exhibition in Dortmund are done, it is back to the mill.
 
     The search for an adequate material to make the live and dead rolls from is ongoing. The test with the 2K PU glue showed a good alternative to the white metal casting ( seen the tools available) but I feel there are some more like aluminite or liquid metal. The 2K PU glue was easy. Fill the two halves of the mould with glue and press them together.
 10 minutes later 5 rolls came out. Flexible and with flash but usable.  Another 48-72 hours waitnig to become rockhard.
 
 With the generous help of Brett, Russ and Marc I am now able to start on the trimmer saw ( and the edger)
 This saw has approx 10-14 saws at 2'0" intervals.
 My search for information showed 2 principal constructions.  Does someone know which construction was mainly used in the  north californian mills, like Hume-Bennett, Pino Grande or Madeira Sugerpine ?

 (http://images36.fotki.com/v1157/photos/7/1437817/7434794/trim1-vi.jpg)

 Trimmersaw with individual saws driven by frictionwheel when lowered and mechanical activation by the "piano player"
 Saws in raised position not "live"

(http://images44.fotki.com/v1469/photos/7/1437817/7434794/trim2-vi.jpg)

 All trimmersaws driven from mainshaft and saws lowered/raised by pneumatic/steam control system
 Saws in riased position live.

 Any help to enable a most plausible choice is appreciated.  One single photo inside the Hume-Bennett mill shows all saws
raised non rotating, but not decisive.

 regards
 Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on April 14, 2009, 03:15:39 AM
Sorry Jacq, I have no idea re. the saw question/issue.

Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: lab-dad on April 14, 2009, 06:48:12 AM
I assume you have looked through the HABS site?

http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/collections/habs_haer/

-Marty


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on April 14, 2009, 11:22:51 AM

    Marty,

    yes, 
   only the Hull Oakes has some drawings and photo's but not clear enough to make out how the drive is arranged.
   I also checked the University of Washington site with similar results.
   
   Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on April 20, 2009, 02:51:29 PM

 Tomorrow to Intermodellbau in Dortmund and built up. From Wednesday till Sunday it will be a mad house.
 In 5 days from 9.00h till 18.00h  approx 100.000 visitors are expected.
 As the layout is marked as highlight, it will get extra attention. 
 Fysically it reminds me of topsport. 
Luckily I have been able to organise a good crew of enthusiast, motivated and experienced top modellers from Germany, Switzerland and Holland.
 I'll report after the weekend with photo's and commentary.

 Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: RoughboyModelworks on April 20, 2009, 07:32:43 PM
Best of luck with the show Jacq. 100,000 visitors  :o - now that's a show! I'm sure everything will go well.

Paul


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on May 03, 2009, 02:42:02 PM
  After a very succesfull show, my fingers itched to start building the trimmer saw.
  Attending a show is very rewarding but not being able to use itching fingers is challenging, even when it is compensated in the evening with a couple of friends and a few biers......... ;D ;D
 
 

   (http://images47.fotki.com/v1474/photos/7/1437817/7434794/DSC_2972-vi.jpg)

   (http://images44.fotki.com/v1487/photos/7/1437817/7434794/DSC_2973-vi.jpg)
    The saws used come from Brett Gallant and are ideally suited for the job.
    Saw is a scale 24" dia with convincing thickness.
   The collets are made by cutting 4mm RB model drums and filing the back of the flanges smooth.
   Axle is a 1mm precision tube.

   (http://images49.fotki.com/v1495/photos/7/1437817/7434794/DSC_2976-vi.jpg)

   (http://images44.fotki.com/v1488/photos/7/1437817/7434794/DSC_2978-vi.jpg)

   In total 10 saws are made. I discovered I need to make one extra to enable even or uneven lengths.
   Distance saw 1-2  1'0"   2-3  6'0"  3-4-5 till 10  2'0" increments.
   Total table length 180 mm ( 7,5" ) 

   (http://images44.fotki.com/v1486/photos/7/1437817/7434794/DSC_2975-vi.jpg)

   experimenting with swingarms of saw.  I am still not sure to make arm of metal or wood.
   I have not been able to get clear details and patents from 1870 -1910 show various solutions. 
   Photo shows styreen arm dia 2.4mm with 25,4 mm length and aluminium arm dia 2,0mm.


  (http://images44.fotki.com/v1490/photos/7/1437817/7434794/DSC_2974-vi.jpg)

  (http://images46.fotki.com/v1491/photos/7/1437817/7434794/DSC_2977-vi.jpg)

  Detail of aluminium arm  2.0mm precision tube with 1.0mm tube as shaft.
  still to be cleaned, deburred, squared, etc. 

  to be continued................

  Jacq


 

   
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on May 03, 2009, 04:00:14 PM
Jacq

Nice blades that Brett sent you.  An a outstanding job of mounting them and doing the arm & shaft.
Glad your show went so well.  And that your able to get back to the mill.

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marklayton on May 03, 2009, 04:52:18 PM
Jacq -

Don't let that unguarded blade slice off an itching finger!  ;)

Mark


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on May 04, 2009, 01:47:03 AM
 
   
Quote
Don't let that unguarded blade slice off an itching finger!

   My wife is complaining about the steeply risen costs of bandaid.  ;) ;)   
   She is deducting these costs from my modeling budget  :'( :'(

   Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: PuckHog on May 04, 2009, 06:56:28 AM

So glad your back at this one  Jacq,  looking forward to regular progress updates.....Randy


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on May 14, 2009, 06:48:49 AM

  to check the fit of all machinery on the footprint, the position and size of live rolls, transfertables, feedertables, edger,
  trimmer gangsaw, slasher saw and greenchain had to be decided.
  A good help here is the book Lumber by R.C. Bryant, some interior photo's of sawmills I found on the web and the available patent information from the 1860 to 1915 period.

 (http://images47.fotki.com/v1475/photos/1/1437817/7010117/DSC_2990-vi.jpg)

 Overview of floor with drawing of live roll, transfers and edger



(http://images45.fotki.com/v1422/photos/1/1437817/7010117/DSC_2542-vi.jpg)

 manufacturing the masters for the live rolls 10" dia and 4'0" long. The mitregear and bearings come from CHB/SW 



(http://images42.fotki.com/v1365/photos/1/1437817/7010117/DSC_2680-vi.jpg)

 Silicone mould halves intended for metal casting.  Too low temperature and lack of centrifuge made this at first a failure.



(http://images107.fotki.com/v534/photos/1/1437817/7010117/DSC_2991-vi.jpg)

First effort with alternative material.  Clear 2 component PU glue was used to fill both mould halves.
After closing the mould and waiting for 1 hour this came out. The material was still too soft and surprised by the air still trapped.  Cleanig and painting showed a lot of improvement, but the material remained soft. Waiting another 24 hours
stabilised the form.

 (http://images24.fotki.com/v864/photos/1/1437817/7010117/DSC_2992-vi.jpg)

Right roll cleaned, deburred and primed gave an acceptable part.
Left roll was made from a different matierial, cleaned and deburred but not painted.

(http://images47.fotki.com/v1475/photos/1/1437817/7010117/DSC_2994-vi.jpg)

Roll made from 2 component metalglue direct after taken from the mould. When waiting 24 hours, flash etc breaks off and an be removed very easily with knife and file. Material is extremily hard.

(http://images47.fotki.com/v1479/photos/1/1437817/7010117/DSC_2996-vi.jpg)

Overview of materials,  moulded parts and mould.

The framework of the live rolls will be assembled within the coming days.
Trimmersaw will be finalised when ordered material ( drive chains,pulleys etc.) has arrived.
Jigs for sawmill rooftrusses are nearly ready.
Base of sawmill module is ready, waiting for geological information of area i.w.o. ground floor of mill.


To be continued...................

Jacq




 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on May 14, 2009, 01:01:23 PM
Most impressive. And evidence that a good modeler often throws out as many attempts as he keeps. Thank you for showing us your failures as well as your success. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on May 14, 2009, 02:47:57 PM
Hi Jacq,
The metal glue seems to have come out well.  Did you have to actually inject it into the mould after doing the initial mix of the 2 part glue?  I would have thought it would have been too thick of a liquid to pour very well.  Also, did you have to use a release agent when using the glue mixes?  I normally work with the 2 part resin, which then pours like a syrup, and runs easily into moulds, but I can see the harder metal glue might be suitable for certain casting applications.

Cheers,
Dan


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on May 14, 2009, 03:19:40 PM

  Dan,

  the clear glue runs like resin. As it is touch dry with 5 minutes it is not reaching all corners when poured.
  I tried filling both mold halves and than close the mold. Rest material is ouzing out from the casting - and airholes.
  With the clear material it turned out, not all air between the two halves disappears.
  Not satisfied, I tried the metal glue in the same way with facinating results. Details are very well reproduced and when cutting one lengthwise no or very very little air holes were visible.
 Cutting with a knife was not possible anymore so I had to use a small disc.
  I made tonight a small casting box for some of the needed little parts ( mitre gears, angle brackets, etc) to cover the amount of live rolls needed. Silicone has been poured, so the mold should be usable tomorrow evening.

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: John McGuyer on May 15, 2009, 08:45:48 AM
Obviously I liked the brass parts.

John


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on May 15, 2009, 09:47:23 AM
   John,

   so do I.   Brass tubing must be painted / brazed to represent steel so white metal has an advantage here.
   But having no casting and centrifuging facilities, I am still looking for alternatives of the present tryout parts with better quality.  One idea is sleeving a stainless or polished steel tube over the ends with bearings and gears.
   
   These ends can be the homebrew variant or made from the Sierra West Models live rolls.
   The SW/CHB live rolls as offered by Brett are the nicest available but are not long enough and too small in diameter
   for use in a large mill.  I've contacted him on availability and possible purchase of the gears.

   All these trial parts will be evaluated after cleaning , painting, weathering and in position on the mill floor.
   
   Jacq
   


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: John McGuyer on May 19, 2009, 07:44:18 PM
Ideal would be to put them in an electroless nickel tank. That way you could get the steel color down in the gears so they could look worn. Be hard to get access to a tank. Also you would want electroless which is auto catalytic as opposed to electrolytic which tends to follow the current.

Next best appears to be paint. I've achieved pretty good results with the Vallejo metallics as they seem to have very fine pigments and give a good metal effect. I have no experience with the Testors stuff that you can polish but that sounds good.

The trick with spin casting would be to find someone that would stick it in their mold along with their parts. You do not want to make an entire mold for your parts. Just the rubber is about $50.00 (wholesale) and remember it is not just rubber like you are using. They are special dedicated pieces and they are baked. It is common for model shops to run a spin cast mold with a bunch of test parts so if you know anyone who does that work, give them a call.

Looking forward to seeing more.

John


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on May 25, 2009, 03:54:25 PM
  Brass parts or plating in very small quantities here in Europe is beyond my modeling budget. 
  It is costing to much time to find someone to do what I want and if found, the costs are too high or the environmental legistation makes it a bureaucratic nightmare.   
  As I like to finish the mill in a forseeable time, I started looking for some alternatives and found some stainless precision tube from 1/8" to 1/4".   

 Marc started a topic Spawling concrete. This brought up my following question:

 Is it in logging machine- and workshops common practice to provide concrete footings for machinery and even complete floors?  I am planning to make the foundations of the mill and part of the floor in concrete, including the boiler- and engine house. Also the planned machine foundations in machine shop and engine house.

Detail parts for trimmer saw, slab saw, edger are ready. 
To prevent damages to the assemblies, I had te rebuilt some parts of the resaw, I don't built them up till just before placing them in the mill.

 The groundfloor question has been a brake on the progress for some time. To finish the mill I have to start now on the ground floor before I continue with the output side. 
 Jacq

 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on May 25, 2009, 09:45:59 PM
 A mill of your size likely used conrete for support column bases (Footings) and some of the hheavier equipment. Boilers could have been left exposed or enclosed in brick masonry.....the first would though likely be mounted on conc. or brick stem walls/supports over a concrete pad, the latter would have concrete footings....though in logging there seems to be no definite.

What follows are some images I had on hand that show mills either under construction or after a fire.

Note the boilers supprted on the framing in this one. Likely they will at some point be encased in brick masonry.



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on May 25, 2009, 09:50:01 PM
Note the concrete slabs in various locations.

M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on May 25, 2009, 09:55:13 PM
Note the encased boilers....looks like either brick or stone.


M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on May 25, 2009, 10:00:59 PM
Note the concrete.

M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on May 25, 2009, 10:05:04 PM
Just for fun, compare the above images to the Power generating room at The Great Souther Lumber Company.....which was immensly advanced.

M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on May 25, 2009, 10:10:06 PM
While going through the images I ran across this one....no foundations or concrete...but thought you might be interested in the framing.

M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on May 28, 2009, 09:11:27 AM

     Found following in the library of congres HABS/HAER: 

     Meadows River Lumber Co.

     Large amount of photo's of abandonded mill showing a wealth of construction details.

    http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=hhsheet&fileName=wv/wv0100/wv0151/sheet/browse.db&action=browse&recNum=0&title2=Meadow%20River%20Lumber%20Company,%20Highway%2060,%20Rainelle,%20Greenbrier%20County,%20WV&displayType=1&maxCols=2&itemLink=D?hh:63 (http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=hhsheet&fileName=wv/wv0100/wv0151/sheet/browse.db&action=browse&recNum=0&title2=Meadow%20River%20Lumber%20Company,%20Highway%2060,%20Rainelle,%20Greenbrier%20County,%20WV&displayType=1&maxCols=2&itemLink=D?hh:63)

    Crowell Lumber Mill:

    with information on foundations/footings and floor finish.

   http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=hhsheet&fileName=la/la0300/la0333/sheet/browse.db&action=browse&recNum=0&title2=Crowell%20Lumber%20Mill,%20U.S.%20Highway%20165,%20Longleaf,%20Rapides%20Parish,%20LA&displayType=1&maxCols=2&itemLink=D?hh:18:./te (http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=hhsheet&fileName=la/la0300/la0333/sheet/browse.db&action=browse&recNum=0&title2=Crowell%20Lumber%20Mill,%20U.S.%20Highway%20165,%20Longleaf,%20Rapides%20Parish,%20LA&displayType=1&maxCols=2&itemLink=D?hh:18:./te)

   Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on May 30, 2009, 02:44:18 PM
  while waiting for material to arrive to finish the rolls, I wondered about the assembly sequence of the building to facilitate building up all machinery on the 3 floors, lighting, maintenance and repairs.
 
 Marc, thanks for the construction details. I have used a lot of details hen doing the posts today.

 Here the first trial of the posts of the sawfloor. A number of posts will have locating pins/holes corresponding with the matching floorbeams. When all is to my satisfaction, the corner posts will be fixed to the floor.
 The sides visible by the public will remain open, the far side will be board and battens.


 (http://images49.fotki.com/v1507/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3024-vi.jpg)

(http://images49.fotki.com/v1520/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3032-vi.jpg)

I noticed in the book They felled the redwoods tha the Hume mill's roof was planked prior to fitting the corrugated sheets. Photo's from other mill's, p.e. Pino Grande, do show the corrugation direct on the purlins.  The Sanger mill had tar paper.

I intend to put  corrugated sheets on but wonder what was common practice around 1900 - 1910 ?

Jacq


 
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on May 30, 2009, 03:33:27 PM
Jacq,

That's looking great. Sure will be big when done!

I think the sheating is going to be a pure 'your choice issue".  Note in the last image above, that the roofing was applied overwhat appears to be solid sheathing. Also note the vertical strips where ther is no roofing material...I can't rell if these are over sheathing, or are being used to hold down a layer of building paper (for added waterproofing).

I think it came down to a couple of basic factors; cost, builders preference, and structural need/benefit, quality of construction/intended longevity of the mill.

On the Hume Mill, the sheathing was possibly deemed necessary as part of the structural aspect.....snow load, and maybe for some added insulation value.....it could also have been simply to provide a "shear plenum". .....or maybe simply because they wanted to.


Marc



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on May 31, 2009, 10:55:38 PM
Jacq,

Not re foundations...but some good sawmill pics from the OSU collection.  Above the image on the left, click on "All Sizes" and you will get some really nice large high resolution versions. There are numerous mill interior shots in this sub-collection.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/osucommons/3465958177/in/set-72157617101514941/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/osucommons/3465958177/in/set-72157617101514941/)

You might also want to look through the entire collection.....there are more than 24 pages of images (pages listed at bottom)....and there seems to be plenty of logging stuff.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/osucommons/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/osucommons/)

Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on June 01, 2009, 01:41:35 AM

    Thanks Marc,

    not only the logging/sawmill pictures are interesting.  The fishing at Celilo Falls is spectacular.  Pity that such traditions are so easily sacrificed to satisfy urban demands. 

   Studying photo's for foundations and structures, I noticed following.
   There appear t be two ways to install the steam engines for the sawmill machinery.
   mills like Hume-Bennet, Pino Grande ( and I assume more)  have the steam engines in seperate engine houses next to the boiler house and mills like the Hull-Oakes, where the engine(s) are on the ground floor of the mill with the boiler house, as most, seperate from the mill.

  I assume that there is no clear rule here, as in most other items discussed.
 
 An innovative and diverse engineering approachis still visible, not governed by too many rules like in the large european countries like Prussia and Austria-Hungaria of the early 20th century. When did the state and federal legalilation, like OSHA, came into effect ? 

 Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on June 01, 2009, 01:14:32 PM
  a day without anybody around...... :D
  Nothing interfering............... a bundle of scale lumber, 

  (http://images49.fotki.com/v1520/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3033-vi.jpg)

  made the first rooftrusses.  All are loosely sitting on the posts.. :o :o like a card house.
  All timbers were handcut, than angles and lengths marked on all pieces and sanded exact to size on my disk sander.

 (http://images50.fotki.com/v1514/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3034-vi.jpg)
     
 Truss nearest is one of the side walls of the filers room.
 I don't know or I'll support the floorbeams with a beam under it and posts like on the photo or make it a small truss.
 Floor area is critical in front of the re-saw.

 (http://images49.fotki.com/v1501/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3035-vi.jpg)


 (http://images49.fotki.com/v1510/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3036-vi.jpg)

 Building from ground floor to top of roof will be approx 14" high , 300 mm (12") as comparisson.

  (http://images49.fotki.com/v1511/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3037-vi.jpg)

 
 tomorrow another day like today  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

  Jacq

  PS
  for the windows in the filers room and skylights I have a choice between  lasercut and styrene windows.
  As I have no experience with lasercut parts, besides the circular saws I received from Brett.  The Grandtline
  windows I know, only the choice is limited to mostly double hung.  Any recommendations ??
 
  Jacq
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on June 01, 2009, 02:06:39 PM
With styrene windows, you will be heavily limited by to what the Mfr's make.

My suggestion would be laser cut from Strathmore (especially if they will revcieve paint) , to your drawings/specs (that way you can have whatever look your heart desires. I would NOT do laser cut wood, besides the ubiqutous wood grain direction issue, I have yet to see any done with the correct muntin sizes (probably due to laser burn...or the mfrs inability to understand period window construction).  Try contacting Tom Fitzgerald at Crystal River Model Works for the laser cutting....tell him Russ sent you.  ;)

You can stain, color the strathmore, and then probably try adding wood grain by dry brushing.

With your skills tough you could build your own from wood or styrene.....though I generally have issues regarding the juality of joints and seams when building them in this scale...the joints are hard to conceal or get to scale, in O and HO so they generally always detract from the overall appearance......especially with as many as you will be needing.


Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Frederic Testard on June 01, 2009, 05:40:43 PM
Jacq, just in case you haven't seen it, I think you might be interested in this thread on Railroad-Line, about the still operating Sturgeon sawmill.
http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=26053
Marc, the links you posted are a gold mine of magnificent pictures (even a non-modeller will find there a ton of great shots). Thanks for sharing.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on June 01, 2009, 11:14:52 PM
Jacq,

Speaking earlier of corrugated, as well as enginehouses, while looking for other stuff, ran across this pic of Madera Sugar pine Shay #6 in their engine-house.


Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on June 02, 2009, 06:16:43 AM
  Frederic,

  thanks for the Sturgeon link.  I started with the articles and plans by Boone Morrison, together with the mill done by Marty Jones. Very nice backwoods material, but not what I was looking for. 

 Marc understood, when I started some 18 - 20 months ago, what I was after and offered a wealth on information.
 This enabled me to understand what is needed to design and built a mill with a large bandsaw, all the correct machinery together with all the relevant material around it. 

 Paul used on his Roughboy site a beautifull and accurate description of how I like to prepare and present my material:

 "Not a sense of fantasy but a sense of documentation"

 The model is based on the Hume Bennett mill but adapted to enable viewing the process and equipment inside.
 The mill building 134'0" long x 50'0" wide and approx 56'0" high from groundfloor to roof apex. It is part of a 16'0"diorama under construction. The diorama is based on a picture from around 1902 of the area around the Mumby Lumber mill. 

 It is now my challenge to blend all these items to a composition in which I am able to show the atmosphere of time gone by, to draw the spectator into the scene.


 Marc,

 thanks for the Madera engine house photo.  Lot's of usefull structural details and materials visible.
 With the prospect of manufacturing the corrugation for the roof of the mill, the idea to cover the walls and roofs of the workshop and engine house with corrugated sheets is not a tempting one.   :-\ :-\

 Within a couple of days I hope to receive "Thunder in the Mountains " by Hank Johnson.
 The bookshelf is getting overloaded with books, prints of patents and internet info.


 Has anyone info on sawband lifts used to transfer the large sawbands to the filers room and like to share it with me ?   ;D ;D

 Jacq



 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: RoughboyModelworks on June 04, 2009, 08:42:27 PM
Looks like you've got a Mill-Raising going on there Jacq... lots of progress since I last checked in. Looking great and excellent workmanship as always.

I'm with Marc on this... you could probably manufacture your own windows out of styrene using jigs and fixtures to speed the process. If the windows are at all similar to one another, you could make a couple of masters and cast or have them cast in resin... The finishing time is going to be the same whichever way you go, but you'll have exactly what you need without making compromises.

Paul


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on June 05, 2009, 01:56:54 AM
Pardon my hi-tech heresy but, for doors and windows, I'd send a drawing to Tom at Crystal River Products and have him laser cut the parts from Strathmore. It will blow away styrene. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on June 05, 2009, 04:32:13 AM
Russ

that's the way I have in mind when my exercises with (0,5 x 0,5 mm) cherriewood strips are not giving the quality I am after.
 Do you know what sort of CAD programs are acceptable? I have to ask my son who can do the drawings in Soliworks or Google Sketchup or son in law for a Autocad version. :-[   I'll have a 0,3mm pencil along a ( hopefully) straight edge to produce a drawing.  I'll contact Crystal Rivers Products to see or multi layered drawings are needed to create the windows. Your name will of course add some weight  :D :D
 
Marc   
Quote
the mfrs inability to understand period window construction
  and some more like this ignorant naval architect :-[ :-[
 If you have some details... I get lost in all that is being offered on the net. The photo's of the Hume mill are not clear enough to pick out details.

Who is offering scale thickness glass??  Chuck has been using glass (in O scale?) with amazing results but I am not able to discover where he has the glass from. A glasscutter I have  ;D ;D

Here the latest progress: 
(http://images49.fotki.com/v1521/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3053-vi.jpg)

The sawfiler room will be floored when the stair stringer supports are in place.
Walls will go up when window drawing is final.

(http://images46.fotki.com/v1518/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3052-vi.jpg)

Rooftrusses will be joint with purlins and apex intersection with Skylight roof apex.
Roof will be detachable to reach interior.

(http://images50.fotki.com/v1512/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3051-vi.jpg)


(http://images49.fotki.com/v1500/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3049-vi.jpg)


(http://images50.fotki.com/v1515/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3038-vi.jpg)

The situation yesterday.  ;D ;D       it's going like a spear.
30 cm ( 12") ruler added for size comparisson.

Have a nice weekend,  I will  ;D ;D ;D ;D ( lots of scale lumber, arrived parts, no household chores or family plans ....)

Jacq




Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: lab-dad on June 05, 2009, 07:05:49 AM
WOW, Really looking nice! Love the "see through" w/o the roof on!
The Crystal River windows are the best you can find anywhere!
I get my glass from Clover House, let me know if you need help in obtaining it.
-Marty


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on June 05, 2009, 02:31:56 PM
The model is coming together just beautifully. Really exquisite.

A two dimensional AutoCad drawing works for nearly anybody with a laser cutter. You would send either the native "dwg" file or, if the laser guy uses a different program, a "dxf" file from any CAD program. But even if you don't have access to CAD you could still draw the plan with a pencil and write the dimensions. Then whoever does your laser work can quickly and easily trace or redraw the plan on a computer. I always send a dxf drawing because it's universal and easy for Tom to import and modify.

I did not use layers in any drawing I sent but the drawing showed each individual component of each window together with an "assembled" view. That way Tom knew exactly what I had in mind.

Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marklayton on June 05, 2009, 04:44:13 PM
Jacq -

1/8” window glass scales out at 0.0026” (0.066 mm) thick at 1:48 scale.  The thinnest glass I’ve found is Thickness 0 microscope cover glass from Ted Pella, Inc.  Thickness 0 ranges from 0.08 – 0.13 mm.  The thinnest stock is getting close.  It would be fine for 1:32, and probably acceptable for 1:48.

The URL for their page of cover glass is http://www.tedpella.com/histo_html/coverslp.htm#anchor260164 (http://www.tedpella.com/histo_html/coverslp.htm#anchor260164)

Mark


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on June 08, 2009, 04:01:35 AM

    What was the colour of the ( hot dipped?)  galvanised corrugated metal sheets. Here galvanised sheets have a greyish colour. I also have seen shiny silverish sheets. Does the colour fades to a matt grey after some time?

    Photo's of the Hume mill or the Pino Grande mill are not conclusive, except for the fact that they reflect a lot of light.
    No corrosion visible. On the Pino Grande mill ( after 50 years) some dirt or rust streaks are visible on photo's made just before the closure.
     Dirt and other deposits will of course gather in the usual places, but I have not noticed on mills in their prime heavily corroded roofs.

   The area chosen is 1905 - 1915  with the mill approx 5-10 years old.

   Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on June 09, 2009, 04:33:21 AM
   Some progress.
   It was a pain in the ... to get the skylight rafters lined up with the rafters of the filers room roof.
   Based on some obscure photo's, I spaced the rafters 2'0" and will space the purlins at approx 3'0" to get the correct roof nailing spacings.  Is my interpretation correct or................

   Angles, slopes, small clamps, glue, falling pieces,  drawings, sections and fold-outs made my son ask or intended to start working again.

  (http://images49.fotki.com/v1519/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3059-vi.jpg)


  (http://images49.fotki.com/v1519/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3061-vi.jpg)


  (http://images50.fotki.com/v1513/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3057-vi.jpg)


 (http://images49.fotki.com/v1510/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3062-vi.jpg)

  Some rafters on the fillers roof still to lined out and fixed.

 (http://images49.fotki.com/v1502/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3058-vi.jpg)

  It amazes me that for such a fragile wooden construction it still all lines up  ;D ;D ;D   the squareness of the roof and fillers room sides needs a 0,5mm shim to allign all parts  :D :D :D 
 Murphy occassionally drops by, but now I haven't seen him for a while. Must be visiting someone else  :D :D

 Trying to built the structure as much as possible as an orginal my respect for the skils and inventivity of the tradesman of that time is very very high.

 Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on June 09, 2009, 06:13:05 AM
Jacq

Oh this is just becoming one of the most outstanding sawmills or for that matter any building that's been undertaken here. Great workmanship Jacq!!

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on June 10, 2009, 02:40:24 PM
Jacq,

Really just outstanding. Beautiful to watch this come along. Feels almost like I was watching the real thing go up.


In regards to the corrugated.....in a 5 year span, it probably would have very little rust and corrosion...maybe only where edges were cut, holles punched for fastening, or the coating was damaged/worn during shipping or installation....or some really adverse condition exists, such as coontinuous condensation/heating/cooling from a steam pipe or stack. The metal in general would probably have begun to soften to nice soft grey tones (the dulling of the finish). 

One thing to possibly consider with materials....sometimes, as in the case of the Sanger mill at Converse Basin, the mills were moved/rebuilt at a new location.......and so it is likely that much of the salvageable/use-able building material (such as the roofing) from the old mill was re-used at the new mill site (since it would be less expensive to re-use and move material already there...than have to bring all new material up into the woods/mountains).....if not in the main mill building, then likely in the outbuildings. ...thus you would likely have some pieces/areas/buildings that have a different finish on certain materials.


Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Chuck Doan on June 10, 2009, 04:12:37 PM
What Jerry said, I couldn't agree more!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on June 11, 2009, 02:17:10 AM
You probably know, Jacq, that if you want me to publish an article on your masterpiece, just tell me. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on June 18, 2009, 04:38:52 AM
   
   to be able to finish p.e the filers room and add lights and cables I had to think about how to construct the various roofs.

   (http://images50.fotki.com/v1522/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3063-vi.jpg)

   Trial fit of the fillers roof and skylight ( clerestorial?) together with some windows.  20 panel will be changed to 16 panel.
   Fillers room roof and complete skylight will be one unit. The skylight fits into a recess formed in the mainroof.
   


   (http://images50.fotki.com/v1522/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3064-vi.jpg)
   
   The  skylight uprights are fixed to the untreated horizontal timber. This will be the lower fixing surface of the walls
   ( a sketch will be added later to explain how it all fits together )


  (http://images35.fotki.com/v1171/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3069-vi.jpg)

   Test pieces of skylight wall.     
     Weathered part is finished board and batten test piece.
     Untreated part shows boards and window construction.


  (http://images14.fotki.com/v335/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3070-vi.jpg)

  (http://images50.fotki.com/v1524/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3071-vi.jpg)

  Detail of board and batten wall construction before battens were added.
  Basic material is 6,2mm x 0,5mm cherry wood, treated with Silver Wood after light sanding to remove some fuss.
  The wall shape is drawn on lined/squared writing paper ( not too heavy quality)
  On one side the boards are glued, when finished the other side is covered.
  The boards are than lightly sanded.  In this case the natural grain of the cherry wood came out very subtle so no
  extra treatment with a wirebrush is necessary.

 
   (http://images20.fotki.com/v355/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3067-vi.jpg)

   The following step is adding the battens. Ahorn strips of 1,5mm x 0,5mm are close to scale 3" x 1" battens  ;D
   Some battens have been treated with Silver Wood and others were left plain before glueing in place.
   The underside of the batten is pulled over spread out glue and wiped before adding to the boards.  This way hardly any glue is oozing out when applying some weights to assist the drying and fixing.

  (http://images27.fotki.com/v1022/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3066-vi.jpg)

  The wall section prior to treatment and battens. The back will be fully detailed with window frames, furring battens etc. as inside is visible through the windows.

 
 (http://images35.fotki.com/v1171/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3069-vi.jpg)

  Test with some materials in house to see how the composition will look like. Windows will most probably of the tilting type. There are some nice photo's of the 2nd Converse mill showing this type skylight windows.
 
  Is it normal practice that the corrugated roof fits under the wall parts? Or is there a metal flashing?


  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on June 18, 2009, 02:04:13 PM
Great work Jaqc.  I really like the tilting windows, and your use of cherry wood is very interesting...it stains up beutifully.

The corrugated question is a tough one to answer....as there are several ways this might have been approached, depending on the builders choice.....and the sequence in which this was built (which likely would have been siding first...then roof.  (unless the roof was fully sheathed..then it would have been roof sheathing, siding and then corrugated...but agsin....all depends on the builder of the period)

The "best Practice" and likely the most common for construction would have been one of three ways:

1.) Install/fasten a bent piece of flashing...say 6"-8" on each leg onto the the studs/framing where it meets the rafters...and just high enough above the rafters to fit the corrugated under later. Then sheath the wall...with the wall sheathing and battens covering the part of the flashing nailed to the studs/framing.

2.) After the wall sheathing was installed...but before the battens are applied....the same bent flashing strip is nailed onto the top of the sheathing...probably with some asphaltum behind it to act as a seal gasket...then another brushing of asphaltum to seal the top lip/joint of the flashing at the wood.....then a horizontal trom board (the same thickness as, or just a slight bit thicker than, the battens would be applied along the bottom edge of the wall, covering most of the vertical section of flashing...and also covering the joint between the flashing and sheathing. The vertical battens would then be cut to sit/stop tight against the horizontal board

3.).....and this is what I woud ASSUME to be the approach they would take [as the previous two above are much more "finished" type of work.....the type found on typical residential or commercial work,...where appearance was more important, and money was spent on this type of detailing]......I believe they would take approach #2....but not do the horizontal trim board to cover the flashing....they would simply run the battens down onto the exposed flashing (I have seen this detail on less finished/expensive structures, and farm/utilitarian type structures, of the period).  I will see if I can find a photo that shows this.


....then  of course there were a myriad of other ways this could have been haphazardly done or improvised.....but I don't think that would fit/math the effort and quality of the rest of the mill construction.


Marc




Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on June 18, 2009, 06:39:53 PM
Jacq

Very nice!!  The windows are they wood or from Tom?
Glad you showed pictures with the roof rafters just showing really a nice birds eye view of what's going on inside.

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on June 19, 2009, 01:33:01 AM
Jaqc,

I dug through a file of old photos of barns (since they are somewhat sim in approach to external construction and framing and finish materials, as the type of sawmill you are doing).  Sorry for the image quality, but I had to substantially enlarge the images so the areas of interest/discussion would show.

In image 029 below, the wall sheathing seems to be over the flashing (as indicated by the ragged/uneven bottom line of the boards)

Image 038 also shows the flashing behind the wall sheathing

In 053, they seem to have simply bent the metal up over the sheathingand sealed the seam with asphaltum...looks like they may have even bent it over the battens as well.

In 059 it look like they are using rolled asphalt roofing for flashing, the edge of which has been wrapped uo the wall and then held in place with the board. ....this detail though is an improvised/later repair.

More to come....


Marc




Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on June 19, 2009, 01:40:31 AM

In image 041, the flashing seems to have been installed underneath the sheathing.

In image 060, the flashing has been installed over the sheathing...and under the battens.  Note the like of asphaltum sealer at the flashing wall joint between the battens.

In 062 the flashing is installed under the sheathing (again note the uneven bottom line of the boards)

In 079 a piece of metal flashing or flashing made out of rolled asphalt roofing, has simply been bent up over the shiplap siding, and sealed with asphaltum.


Hope these were of help/interest.....as you can see you have some options to play with. ;) ;D


Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Hume Lumber Co on June 19, 2009, 01:54:47 AM
Jacq,
Wow, nice work!  I just found this and have not read everything.  I have been working on the modeling the Hume Mill and have a 2D cad drawing and HO model...  I would love to share some info with you.

Here are some photos for a few years back.  The pillars that the dam stood on are not large, just the size of the timber that stood on it.  There is a large concrete block that I may have been for the saw and other than that there is really no other concrete left from under the mill.  The mill was built at the same time as the dam.  And all the supplies were carried by wagon 60 miles through the mountains.  For the dam, only cement was haled to the site.  Granite was quarried, sand was found in the stream, 7 miles of cable and lots of RR track was used to reinforce the dam.  So I guess they did not want to waste much concrete for the mill.  But wood was plentiful! 

I look forward to seeing your progress!  I am so glade I found it.  You can work slow, since I have months of reading on this topic to catch up ;D

Matthew


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Hume Lumber Co on June 19, 2009, 02:00:27 AM
More photos from around the dam.  This has foundation of boiler house.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Hume Lumber Co on June 19, 2009, 02:11:28 AM
  Is it normal practice that the corrugated roof fits under the wall parts? Or is there a metal flashing?

Jacq,
I have a lot of photos of the Hume mill, but none give that detail.  I don't see flashing and don't think there was any.  But I think the board and batons were put on first.  At least in The Felled the Redwoods page 102 see the left side of the filers room the batons are on prior to the corrugated roof.  I assume that if there was wind it would leak.  They didn't have to worry about the computers getting wet ::)  And the overhang of the roof above was a few feet...

Matthew


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Chuck Doan on June 19, 2009, 08:25:01 AM
Hi Matthew, nice to "see" you again!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on June 19, 2009, 11:47:43 AM
 
    Marc,  thanks for the corrugated details. Decisions, decisions, decisions..................... Time to take out the bike and think about what, how and when.

    Matthew, welcome.  I have seen the Hume Lumber site.  Some nice info. Also the photo's of the concrete remains are helpfull. 
    The photo of the mill under construction shows the roofsheating protruding beyound the filers room wall.
    Other photo's do show this part not being there anymore.


   All rafters are on.  :P :-\ :-* :'( 
   I have been advised to seek asap professional help. My wife is checking our health insurance or it is covering specialised therapy.


   (http://images46.fotki.com/v1453/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3080-vi.jpg)

   The roof finished. The tree on top is hardly visible  >:(

  (http://images27.fotki.com/v994/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3082-vi.jpg)
 
  Tomorrow with the correct light, I'll take photo's showing how it breaks down into subassemblies.

   Jacq
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: MrBrownstone on June 19, 2009, 12:08:55 PM
Holy Rafters... Jacq-man

You are my hero....   :o

It sure looks beautiful jacq.
I am truly enjoying this project of yours.

Mike


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: chester on June 19, 2009, 02:29:05 PM
Absolutely beautiful framing Jacq. I'm sure the flashing could be done a variety of ways on the corrugated roof to be prototypical but to be correct, always keep in mind the water lap. The flashing should go behind the siding. There is a flat to corrugated piece of flashing available to roofers just for this purpose.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Hume Lumber Co on June 19, 2009, 10:25:51 PM
    The photo of the mill under construction shows the roofsheating protruding beyound the filers room wall.
    Other photo's do show this part not being there anymore.

   Jacq

Yes you are correct!  I guess the builders change the design as they built! 

I see that you have followed the Hume mill in many ways.  I wonder why you did not put the second skylight window to the right of the filers room?  And maybe you state it somewhere (I haven't got to read all the posts), but obviously there was a ground floor under the floor that you built.  What is your logic in leaving it out.  Do you assume there is a basement in areas where needed (i.e. the band saw)?

I looked more at the picture from They Felled the Redwoods page 102.  I noticed that everywhere the people are sitting in front of the mill was temporary!   Also I noticed in your mill and it seemed to be confirmed in the same photo that the mill has no internal supports.  Wow!  That is a 50 foot span!

As you can see I need the professional help.  So when you find someone good let me know!

Chuck, thanks!  It is great to see you here too!

Matthew


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on June 20, 2009, 02:34:26 AM
Simply beautiful.

Nice that you kept the tradition of the tree.


Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on June 20, 2009, 06:43:03 AM
  As promised:

  (http://images50.fotki.com/v1523/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3084-vi.jpg)

  saw floor and posts.  This area still needs to be finished with corner stiffening, sawmill equipment, stairs, details, details,
  dirt, sawdust, bark etc. etc.

 
  (http://images49.fotki.com/v1510/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3090-vi.jpg)

  Roof assembly added.  The roof fits between locators, keeping posts upright and roof in relative position to each other.


  (http://images49.fotki.com/v1521/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3085-vi.jpg)

  Roof is a self supporting structure.  This enables easy finishing of with details like tension rods, nbw's,  lighting cables with insulators,  passage to filers room, trimmersaw operators platform, etc, etc,


  (http://images49.fotki.com/v1508/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3089-vi.jpg)


  (http://images49.fotki.com/v1521/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3093-vi.jpg)

  filers room roof and skylight with roof removed, showing the recess in main roof.  This enables finishing of filers room interior and outside walls.

  (http://images30.fotki.com/v433/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3091-vi.jpg)

  Filers room roof and skylight assembly is also a seperate unit.


  (http://images30.fotki.com/v1038/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3094-vi.jpg)

  And all parts assembled again.   Without gaps  ;D ;D

  Matthew,  the ground floor will be part of the landscaping on the module as this will contain all it's concrete piers and foundations embedded in the rockfloor. 
  The mill is not an exact copy of the Hume mill.  The filers room is wider to enable sawband from main rig and resaw to be lifted directly into the filers room.  The layout is a mirror image of the Hume mill so I could use material I had already.
The layout is for a very large part based on information I received from Marc,  my interpretations of the books "They felled the redwoods", " Pino Grande " and sawmill related patents from the period that these mills were built.
  The diorama will definitely include parts of the Hume dam, boiler house and engine house.

  Jacq
 
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: LeOn3 on June 20, 2009, 01:34:00 PM
Follow this thread a while now, I had the opportunity to see this project last weekend at Jacq's place. The pictures I 've seen here of this project are great but to see this mill live is even greater.
Keep up the good work Jacq and thanks for the invitation and the lots of info you had given to me. I really have to get more info before building the new mining layout.

Leon


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ken Hamilton on June 22, 2009, 12:07:10 PM
There's nothing more beautiful than a large structure with accurate framing.
The best part is that correct scale framing is just as strong as - or stronger than - the real thing.
Very nice work, Jacq.

Did you cut your own wood?


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on June 23, 2009, 03:50:10 AM
   Ken,

   no,  I am not cutting my own wood. With the help of some design information on timber constructions and scantlings given in some books, I worked out the sizes and ordered sufficient material in the US as here in Europe scale size lumber is not available. Only the cherry wood and pear wood strips I bought from a german fellow, but these offers are very rare, with some variation in width,  thickness size is very constant. Well suited for board and batten constructions.

  Jerry,

  for the windows I send Tom Fitzgerald at Crystal River Model Works a mail, but had no answer yet.
  Before I knew this adres to make windows, I ordered/received some windows in carton from Rustystumps.
  I modified them to suit the skylight size and thos are the ones shown in the photo's.  I am waiting for the glass
  so I can finish the windows. 
  I still like to get Crystal River windows as there are more buildings to go.

  Busy with the corrugated sheeting.  Cutting 26" boards  :P :P  demands concentration.
  Initially I wanted to make the corrugation myself, but the amount and quality needed turned out to much  :( :(
  From one of Chuck's projects, the name Builders in scale/CCCrow turned up as supplier of quality corrugated material in  various sheet lengths.  The ordered parts are in and 2 packets of 10'0" sheets are processed already. Very good stuff.

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on June 26, 2009, 03:16:03 PM
 Some quick progress shots.
 
  All corrugated sheets are cut.   pffffffffffffffffffffff........
  one covered roofside has been primered and waits for final weathering.
 
  Templates for all board and battens sides are ready.

  (http://images49.fotki.com/v1511/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3110-vi.jpg)


  (http://images109.fotki.com/v1537/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3113-vi.jpg)

  Worked slowed down due to 30° C temperatures. Now at 23.30h it is still 27° C ...

  Next week I hope to have the roof covered and walls ready.  ;D ;D

  Jacq
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on June 27, 2009, 12:01:01 AM
Looking great!  That stuff is a a pain in the rear to cut without warping or damaging it.


Sheesh...30-degrees....that's nothing..thats a pleasant day...it was that warm here today....on Sunday it's supposed to get around 36 here. ;) ..and I'll be out on the bike....as they say "Mad dogs and Englishmen stay in the noon-day sun....." ;D ;D


Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on June 27, 2009, 03:35:47 AM
   
Quote
Sheesh...30-degrees....that's nothing..thats a pleasant day...it was that warm here today

    with 95% humidity ??? 
    It feels similar like Singapore.   :P :P
    When living in South Australia, yes 30° C was fine and in the summer some weeks 40° C plus was normal but with a very low humidity level. HOT but bearable. the worst I encountered was 115° F with a heat wave lasting a week.
    Adelaide is much like LA , ringed by hills/mountains and the sea and under special conditions the brown smog, that remains hanging over the city not able to lift itself over the hills.

   the cutting of the corrugated sheets was not too bad, with a sharp break off blade and very light cuts, there was little distortion,  even when shortening or cutting an angled piece off.  The BIS/CCCrow stuff is some of the best I have worked with. In H0 with the thin material used, commercially and home made, I fully agree with you.
   It cost a lot of cutting blades, when a uneven resistance occurs, it is time to break off a part to get a new sharp one. 
   I used 2 complete refill blades to do the lot. 
   


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: chester on June 27, 2009, 07:42:00 AM
I too like the CC Crow offering in corrugated tin. How did you fasten them down Jacq?


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on June 27, 2009, 08:28:59 AM
  Chester,

   the sheating is glued down on small purlins with ACC gel.   This fills some gaps and gives time to adjust the sheet to the correct position.
   These  purlins are spaced pending the length of the sheet with a max of 2'6". 
   The flashing is made from heavy houshold alum. foil. 

   Jacq 
   


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on June 27, 2009, 08:58:02 AM
Jacq

This is getting better with every step forward.  Just looking forward to ever new post.

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Frederic Testard on June 27, 2009, 04:24:49 PM
I am extremely impressed by the precision of all your frame work, Jacq, and the way the assembled building looks. You're on the way to perfection (and then the next project will be a real problem :) ).


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on June 27, 2009, 08:15:30 PM

   Frederic, 

   to stay focussed and motivated, the mind must be able to wander and find other challenges to compensate for the handwork being done.  The next project slowly is taking shape with 2 subjects having the most of my attention.

  One is to built an 1:87 copy of the old Baltschieder viaduct including the famous Victoria Head tunnel of the BLS in Switzerland.
  The other is a diorama based on a painting the Erftmühle by Achenbacher, a 19th century german painter.

  (http://images114.fotki.com/v640/photos/7/1437817/7407986/achenbacherftmhle1-vi.jpg)

  These are at the present mind games, challenging the pencil and paper to form sets of 2D sketches.

  Of course the sawmill diorama is still mentally unfinished, otherwise it is going to be a boring 20 months before it will be finished. The main framework is however ready and is as clear as a photo in my mind.

 Btw. will you be in Sedan 10/11 October ? 

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on June 28, 2009, 01:15:15 AM
Jacq ,

   Don't you think you are setting your sights a bit low by planning on constructing something as "run of the mill" as that building in the painting ? After all , a chap with your abilities should be looking to do something much more complicated ! Ha , ha , I was only joking . The mill looks quite complicated enough .
   Actually , I think the paint is stunning , especially the way that the light is concentrated onto the mill itself .These are the sort of paintings I like best as they are a window into a way of life that has long since gone , and very often the only thing that remains are the buildings themselves ( usually in a very altered state).
  I look forward to seeing how you get on with this project .

 What scale will you be building the mill in ?


  Nick ( in the UK )


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on June 28, 2009, 01:35:59 AM
Jacq ,

  Would I be right in thinking that the painting is by Andreas Achenbach rather than his brother Oswald ?

  Does this question make me sound intellegent and that I have an indepth knowledge of the subject ?  Oh good , that is the image I'm trying to put across !

   Nick


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on June 28, 2009, 03:37:59 AM

   Actually , I think the paint is stunning , especially the way that the light is concentrated onto the mill itself .These are the sort of paintings I like best as they are a window into a way of life that has long since gone , and very often the only thing that remains are the buildings themselves ( usually in a very altered state).


  Nick ( in the UK )

....ah an early forerunner of Thomas "The Painter of Light" Kinckaid.  [:-P


Marc [Holding down the vomit from just thinking of Kinckaid]


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on June 28, 2009, 04:10:07 AM

     Nick

   
Quote
  Would I be right in thinking that the painting is by Andreas Achenbach rather than his brother Oswald ?

  Does this question make me sound intellegent and that I have an indepth knowledge of the subject ?  Oh good , that is the image I'm trying to put across !

    Yes it is by Andreas A.  Seen your replies here on the forum, I don't think your ability to sound intelligent is being questioned.  If it realy is having the sought effect, I don't know, ...it takes time to consult some forum members............... :D :D


   Marc,   
  sjeees.......................you know when to put up some incredible reference material.  My whole breakfast is spoiled.


   Jacq
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Frederic Testard on June 28, 2009, 02:48:14 PM
Marc, your comment about the vomit made me search who "The painter of light" is, and what I found was indeed perfectly disgusting. But it seems that justice has started to break up this "ideal empire"... Good news.

Jacq, your answer prompted me to launch another topic on a totally non railroad subject, that I have had in my mind for a long time now, and for which I think the help of this great group of modellers could be extremely important, since some of the techniques involved in my project are totally unknown to me. This subject will be in perfect accordance to Marc's recommendation in Ken Hamilton's thread : "I hope you will post your projects here regardless of if they are RR". The name in French is "La Pagode des Brumes", the best english translation I could find is "The Misty Pagoda". Soon I'll post a new topic on this subject.

Your Achenbacher inspired subject sounds very exciting. It is sufficiently different from the sawmill to avoid the problem of still improving after reaching perfection.

EDIT : I forgot to answer the question about Sedan. No, I won't, it's very far from La Rochelle. Any chance to meet you at Railexpo, in Paris, around the end of November?


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on July 05, 2009, 11:58:39 AM
    Spot the differences....

   (http://images50.fotki.com/v1527/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3143-vi.jpg)

   (http://images110.fotki.com/v1539/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3139-vi.jpg)

   Roof over the skylight is finished, only the capping to be added. Capping will be made from aluminium foil.


   (http://images110.fotki.com/v1538/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3141-vi.jpg)

   (http://images110.fotki.com/v1539/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3140-vi.jpg)
   

   Skylight windows do tilt and have real glas. I am lookking for details of opening/closing mechanism of this type of windows.


   (http://images110.fotki.com/v1538/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3142-vi.jpg)

   Test with the laser cut double hung windows.  I decided to cut all sashes and hang them seperate
   in built up frames like the right one.


   I have been learning to use 0,007" thick glass. Cutting goes alright, fixing it in the frame took more time and handling
   the complete window/sash during assembly in the structure is going better and better. By the time I am finished with them, I'll be able to put them in without braking the glass or without fingerprints / marks on the glass   :D :D.

  The glass comes from Sierra Scale Models, 55 sheets 2"x1" in a nice box where they are well protected. ( $ 6,95) 
  Till now I have used  15 sheets of which 4 didn't make it.  Good stuff..

    Jacq

   

 
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on July 05, 2009, 12:16:18 PM
Nice progress. The windows look good. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on July 06, 2009, 06:22:08 AM
Jacq

Windows are really great the building is just simply looking better with each addition.

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: lab-dad on July 06, 2009, 07:01:17 AM
Gotta love those Crystal River windows!
I just got a set (custom sized too) and been playing with the real glass.
Funny I had contemplated making them move, but I want to keep whats left of my sanity ??? ???
Beautiful building
-Marty


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Frederic Testard on July 07, 2009, 03:52:04 AM
These windows are really nice Jacq. I like the difference between the "glassed" windows and the "unglassed" ones in the last picture. There's some transparence, and yet a presence, a semi-opacity that gives the feeling there's something behind, even more interesting to discover since it's not displayed too obviously.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on July 07, 2009, 03:55:03 PM
Jaqc,
The whole piece is shaping up superb, definately a dominating structure.  Now I am starting to really get the impression of the final look, I am keen to see it fall into place in the module, and get a sense of the setting as well.  The glass opening windows are an excellent finish...could they be animated with dcc to open and close on demand?? ;D ;)

Dan


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Franck Tavernier on July 07, 2009, 11:11:55 PM
Awesome job Jacq!

Windows look very good and glazings look like truths glazings!  ;) ;)


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ken Hamilton on July 08, 2009, 12:56:36 PM
Jacq, these aren't very good pictures but they may give you an idea of how the mechanism can be
designed. They're from "flickr" and only the Thumbnails are .jeg (the full view are "gif" and won't transfer)

Anyway, it appears that this type of high window was operated by a system of chains, pulleys & levers
and all were designed differently.  They all seem to be designed to fit the particular situation.

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2184/2050976556_ca7fb2c3b0_m.jpg)  (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/19/162758364_9f5c9f2699_m.jpg) (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3197/2734229349_4b77f3ee5a_m.jpg)

Hope this helps.  I love your working windows!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on July 09, 2009, 09:01:43 AM
    Ken,
    thanks, makes life easier.... ;D ;D

   
Quote
Funny I had contemplated making them move, but I want to keep whats left of my sanity Huh Huh

    Marty,
    according to the house members I still turn up at meals, answer questions, show interest in what is happening around me, so it looks like I am still in contact with the world and behaving normally  ;D ;D ;D


    Here the first windows of the filers room. I thought I ordered the right amount, but discovered that I am short of the double ones.  Missing windows have been ordered.

    (http://images51.fotki.com/v1543/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3147-vi.jpg)

    Windows closed..
    Upper sash sits in front of lower sash.  When making locator tabs for the windows in the opening I noticed a gap, which had the exact size to form the sliding groove for the lower sash.


   (http://images51.fotki.com/v1542/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3144-vi.jpg)

   Windows open..
   Lower sashes in up position. 


  (http://images51.fotki.com/v1542/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3149-vi.jpg)

  Construction detail showing centre groove.


  (http://images50.fotki.com/v1530/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_3153-vi.jpg)

  When waiting for the rest of the windows to arrive, I'll add the battens and the small skylight.
  Also time to think about the opening mechanisme ( maybe electric, operated by micromotors and DCC to make Dan happy  :D ;D ) for the skylight windows.

 This project is up till now a very nice challenge, learning a lot 8) 8)       This is good fun......

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ken Hamilton on July 09, 2009, 11:22:43 AM
This is good fun......
That's what it's all about, Jacq!

This is the wrong scale and it's too late for you, since your windows are alredy built,
but you might find this window-making, mini-"How-To" interesting for a future project.
Here's the link:

http://public.fotki.com/khamilton/models/model_how-to/how_to_build_window/

Making working windows in a jig:
(http://images110.fotki.com/v566/photos/1/15405/2782094/WindowsD9-vi.jpg)


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Frederic Testard on July 09, 2009, 04:54:24 PM
Ken, despite it being the wrong scale, I can tell it works in O scale since I built two windows using exactly this tutorial. About half an hour per window if I remember correctly. And they work perfectly well.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Krusty on July 09, 2009, 09:39:46 PM
Quote
Windows open..
   Lower sashes in up position.

Jacq

The windows are beautiful, as, of course, is the whole model. One question, though. Would it have been possible to raise the lower sash like this without also lowering the top sash? On all the domestic sash windows I've seen the two sashes are counterbalanced together with a system of cords and weights (when new anyway – on old, poorly maintained buildings the system breaks down when the sash cord rots, but this is a fairly new, well looked-after building). Were industrial windows different? Do you need two DCC decoders per window?


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on July 09, 2009, 10:40:46 PM
Quote
Windows open..
   Lower sashes in up position.

Jacq

The windows are beautiful, as, of course, is the whole model. One question, though. Would it have been possible to raise the lower sash like this without also lowering the top sash? On all the domestic sash windows I've seen the two sashes are counterbalanced together with a system of cords and weights (when new anyway – on old, poorly maintained buildings the system breaks down when the sash cord rots, but this is a fairly new, well looked-after building). Were industrial windows different? Do you need two DCC decoders per window?

Kevin,

The counterbalanced windows are not at all common or easy to find in the US....and probably non-existant at this time in history.

Wooden windows like these were (and still are) built in double-hung and single hung configurations (yes, there were oddeties like double hung dissapearing sash and such...but these were foundon high-end residential or specialty projects).

Double-hung:  The upper and lower sashes both move. They move completely independently of eachother. Sashes were generally counter-weighted in a window jamb/frame or wall pocket by the use of weights connected to the sahes with ropes.

Single-hung: The upper sash is installed in a fixed/closed position, and only the lower sash opens. (I have also on a rare occassion seen it configured where the bottom sash was fixed, and the upper operated.


Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ken Hamilton on July 10, 2009, 07:21:48 AM
Marc, in the relatively short time I've been here I've come to realize that you know a lot of stuff!
Thanks for sharing all your tips, facts, photos and other modeling aids that make out lives easier.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on July 10, 2009, 11:47:44 AM
Marc, in the relatively short time I've been here I've come to realize that you know a lot of stuff!
Thanks for sharing all your tips, facts, photos and other modeling aids that make out lives easier.



  Actually , Ken , I would say that Marc makes our lives harder . Because we can't get away with doing less than wonderful modelling without him letting us know about it .
  Not that I'm implying that any of your modelling is less than wonderful , it is just the rest of us mere mortals I'm referring to ,


    Nick

  Incidentally , the weights that Marc is referring to are cast iron cylindrical bars of differing lengths , depending on how much weight is required to counterbalance the windows . Unfortunately I don't have any or I would take a photo to show those not in the know what they looked like .


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Chuck Doan on July 10, 2009, 01:22:55 PM
Ken knows something about those counterweights as he modelled a window with the frame missing to show it. Talk about making things hard!

I thought double hung related to the Shel Silverstein song "Stacy Brown got two" ;D

Anyway, good to know the difference. 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ken Hamilton on July 10, 2009, 01:51:50 PM
HA!  Good memory, Chuck. 
Not a good picture, but the missing molding on the window in the middle of this picture
exposes a weight & broken cord....just how I found them in half the windows in my house:

(http://images110.fotki.com/v566/photos/1/15405/2654840/Walls42-vi.jpg)


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on July 10, 2009, 02:42:48 PM
Marc, in the relatively short time I've been here I've come to realize that you know a lot of stuff!
Thanks for sharing all your tips, facts, photos and other modeling aids that make out lives easier.

Ken,

It's not that I know a lot of stuff...it's just that I only try to answer the easy questions that fall into the realm of what I am familiar with  ;) (and I have a pretty good reference library). Structure and related questions are generally pretty easy because of what I do for a work....but if you ask me things like locomotive questions, automotive questions or even what plant/tree something is...... the best I could give you is a blank stare  :-\ ;D.


Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Belg on July 10, 2009, 07:31:13 PM

[/quote]

 Structure and related questions are generally pretty easy because of what I do for a work.... :-\ ;D.


Marc
[/quote]

And that's obviously not an English teacher!  ;D ;)


Jacq, your progress is just fantastic, can't wait to see you pull off the moving windows with DCC. Pat


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on July 20, 2009, 03:29:14 PM
  Waiting for stuff again. I was too optimistic in my estimates of material needed.
  In the mean time, I tried my luck with the return live roller street of the resaw with transfer chains.

  My appologies for the photo quality, just some quick shots of the first test set up.
 
  (http://images51.fotki.com/v1541/photos/1/1437817/7010117/DSC_3167-vi.jpg)

  (http://images51.fotki.com/v1546/photos/1/1437817/7010117/DSC_3160-vi.jpg)

  (http://images51.fotki.com/v1549/photos/1/1437817/7010117/DSC_3162-vi.jpg)

  All mitres are from Sierra West, rolls are homemade from 2K metal glue and painted with Tamiya titanium silver.
  Transfer arms are mix of evergreen channel, 0,5mm spacer to create opening for chain and some 4mm OD drums from a 1: 350 ship derrick.

  No weathering applied yet nor grease etc.     NBW still to be added

  (http://images51.fotki.com/v1544/photos/1/1437817/7010117/DSC_3168-vi.jpg)

  Test set up with large live rolls. Rolls are made from stainless tube  6mm OD/ 4mm ID  bearings are Sierra West live rolls cut in halve and filed round to fit the tubes. All rolls cut and filed by hand  ;D ;D gave me some needed movement and exercise.

  Jacq

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on July 21, 2009, 10:02:43 AM

   It is getting crowded. The resaw feeder with reserve skids. For the transverses I have use link chain as interlocking chain in such small sizes is not available. The smallest I can get is 4mm wide with 3,2mm pitch. Gordon, Ken and other large scalers
have been using it.

 (http://images51.fotki.com/v1546/photos/1/1437817/7010117/DSC_3169-vi.jpg)

 The timber transverse are for measurement reasons sand will be replaced by chanel construction , feeder chains and sprockets.

 (http://images51.fotki.com/v1547/photos/1/1437817/7010117/DSC_3171-vi.jpg)

 Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Chuck Doan on July 21, 2009, 10:15:20 AM
Beautiful, Jacq. It is definetly getting harder to work on!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: MrBrownstone on July 21, 2009, 08:58:12 PM
Hello Jacq,

That is very Inspiring, I am amazed be such fine craftsmanship.  :)

Between this project and the one marty is working on, I am very happy to be of wittness to such workings.

Question: Has anyone tried "watch band pins" for rollers? I can recall seeing some that could pass for such an effect.

It looks so real in these photo's. I can only imagine how it looks with the naked eye.. :o

Mike


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on July 30, 2009, 11:28:10 AM

 The transfer tables with cant feeder for the resaw all in place, ready for final weathering when sawdust, etc will be added.
 Stairs and logcar/scalers platform are ready, logcar winch in production.

 Roller lines for mainsaw and resaw return are finished and fitted.

 I have decided to add a wall on the far side, painted white inside, with doors and windows.

 (http://images52.fotki.com/v1551/photos/7/1437817/7297933/DSC_3177-vi.jpg)

 (http://images52.fotki.com/v1551/photos/7/1437817/7297933/DSC_3173-vi.jpg)

 (http://images52.fotki.com/v1551/photos/7/1437817/7297933/DSC_3172-vi.jpg)

 (http://images52.fotki.com/v1553/photos/7/1437817/7297933/DSC_3176-vi.jpg)

 

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on July 30, 2009, 01:13:29 PM
You planning to win a prize with that or something?

Incidentally, the white wall is a good idea for two reasons: It provides an uncluttered backdrop to focus attention on the hardware and also reflects light back on the machinery to make it easier to see.

Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jmartin on July 30, 2009, 01:55:22 PM
My oh my.  This is simply stellar.  Some of the best craftsmanship I have ever seen.  Keep up the remarkable work.  It is one of those models that simply makes others want to model.

John


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on July 30, 2009, 02:18:27 PM
  Russ,
 
  I don't like building specifically for prizes/contests/recognition.       Only the thought......

  It is a challenge to myself, to understand what I am building.
  And to communicate my interpretation. ;D ;D

  Jacq

 

  
  


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on July 30, 2009, 03:04:37 PM
  It is one of those models that simply makes others want to model.

John

...hmmm...makes me want to quit and take up building balsa and paper airplanes.

Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: MrBrownstone on July 30, 2009, 03:40:15 PM
Well you did it to me as well Jacq,

I have run out of words to dicribe my view on this project....(well maybe one more word..."Magnificient!")

did you figure out the tilt window hardware? (the opening and closing of them)

simply a pleasure to see this coming along.....

Mike


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on July 31, 2009, 01:18:14 AM
 
  Uncle,

  reading your obsession with antlers ( especially on DIESELS) I have to come back on your question:
 
Quote
You planning to win a prize with that or something?


  Yes I intended to participate at the NGC as I have enough lengths of chain left for random application,
  full bottles of not yet applied rust and tons of loosely laying around clutter on my workbench to supply all participants with stuff.  It all is failing with the unavailability of antlers to put on te roofcorners and apex.
  As this is taking away any chance to fall in the prices, I decided to withdraw my application. >:( >:(

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on July 31, 2009, 03:20:02 AM
Dear Jacq,

You have lost your cotton pickin' mind.

Very truly yours,

Uncle Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: chester on July 31, 2009, 08:01:49 AM
Dear Jacq,

You have lost your cotton pickin' mind.

Very truly yours,

Uncle Russ

Agreed but a fantastic modeler just the same. Amazing work Jacq, truly inspiring.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on August 05, 2009, 02:10:06 PM

  steady progress on the machinery.

  Here the first tests with the sides of the edger.  All stiffeners, flanges and fasteners still to be added.
 
   (http://images52.fotki.com/v1552/photos/1/1437817/7131837/DSC_3191-vi.jpg)

   (http://images49.fotki.com/v1489/photos/1/1437817/7131837/DSC_3192-vi.jpg)

   All shafts and arbor are temporary and will be replaced with the correct lengths when bearing houses are in place.
   The saws will be visible so the sawshifting mechanism can be shown.

   (http://images51.fotki.com/v1550/photos/1/1437817/7131837/DSC_3193-vi.jpg)

   (http://images50.fotki.com/v1557/photos/1/1437817/7131837/DSC_3189-vi.jpg)

   This will be a 5'0" double gang edger. The pressure rolls will be operated by a steam cilinder.

   Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: MrBrownstone on August 05, 2009, 11:32:22 PM
Jacq,

You're scaring me man....You're scaring me...  :o ::) :o


It is just amazing the level you are working at....  :)

Mike


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on August 08, 2009, 08:13:11 AM
   Added some details to the edger. The complete edger is built from styrene sheet , tube and rod.
   
   (http://images51.fotki.com/v1547/photos/1/1437817/7131837/DSC_3194-vi.jpg)

   Edger with feedertable in position.

   (http://images51.fotki.com/v1546/photos/1/1437817/7131837/DSC_3196-vi.jpg)

   Belts still to be added.

   (http://images50.fotki.com/v1557/photos/1/1437817/7131837/DSC_3195-vi.jpg)

   When the final position is determined, the sawdust openings in the floor and ducts to the conveyors will be added.

   (http://images50.fotki.com/v1558/photos/1/1437817/7131837/DSC_3197-vi.jpg)

   Sideview of feedertable and edger. The adjusting levers will be replaced with scale size levers. NBW's and cant guides still to be added.

   (http://images52.fotki.com/v1554/photos/1/1437817/7131837/DSC_3198-vi.jpg)

   pressure rolls are adjustable.

   (http://images51.fotki.com/v1547/photos/1/1437817/7131837/DSC_3199-vi.jpg)

   (http://images51.fotki.com/v1550/photos/1/1437817/7131837/DSC_3203-vi.jpg)

   (http://images50.fotki.com/v1558/photos/1/1437817/7131837/DSC_3204-vi.jpg)

    Timbers shown are 16' long, apparently a standard size used with a lot of mill in northern California.

 
    When applying the final weathering, all materials are in house except a good grease/oil representing paint. Any suggestion for stuff that is easily available in Europe?

   This edger is based on patents from the period 1880 - 1910 by inventors that are associated with firms that produced sawmill equipment, like Allis Chalmers Mfg Co,  Prescott Co., American Sawmill Machinery Co, etc...

   The floor is slowly filling up. Next item will be the trimmersaw and feed for the green chain, the transfers for slash from one side of the mill to the place where the slasher saws will be positioned.

   Jacq

   


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on August 08, 2009, 09:20:55 AM

  Looking at the latest photo's again AND comparing the details with the other equipment already built, the steamcilinder  for the pressure rolls and the lever arms will be replaced with a new more to scale version version. 

 
  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on August 08, 2009, 12:29:31 PM
Most satisfactory. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: LaserM on August 08, 2009, 07:18:30 PM
Jacq,

When are you going to fire this shop up?  In full production, it might challenge Northeastern's market.  Train a few mice to help keep things running smoothly ... interesting.  Low overhead and you pay your workers in cheese.

Outstanding job,
Mike



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Krusty on August 09, 2009, 06:35:38 AM
Quote
When applying the final weathering, all materials are in house except a good grease/oil representing paint. Any suggestion for stuff that is easily available in Europe?

Jacq

Mig Productions sell an engine grease oil paint and an oil and grease wash. I haven't used them (they aren't available locally), but the results they produce look good in photographs.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on August 09, 2009, 07:50:29 AM

   Kevin , thanks. I have ordered the MIG paint

   reworked edger :

   (http://images52.fotki.com/v1552/photos/1/1437817/7131837/DSC_3206-vi.jpg)

   Pressure rolls down.  The complete cilinder and linkages have been rebuilt with scale size material.

   (http://images51.fotki.com/v1549/photos/1/1437817/7131837/DSC_3207-vi.jpg)

   Steam cilinder and pressure rolls in up position.

   (http://images51.fotki.com/v1548/photos/1/1437817/7131837/DSC_3210-vi.jpg)

   To be finished with grease etc.

   (http://images49.fotki.com/v855/photos/1/1437817/7131837/DSC_3211-vi.jpg)

   1/4 view from rear normally difficult to see.  steamtubes unpainted, should be wrapped in insulation material  ::)

   (http://images49.fotki.com/v855/photos/1/1437817/7131837/DSC_3214-vi.jpg)

    saw guides hardly visible.

   (http://images51.fotki.com/v1549/photos/1/1437817/7131837/DSC_3215-vi.jpg)

   indication of size of machine. Figure measures 6'3" ( 1/43 Phoenix figure)

   Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on August 09, 2009, 11:23:16 AM
MIG Productions Oil and Grease Stain Mixture used on my 1/35th Deutz . I reckon it looks pretty convincing , especially if you follow the instructions and build it up in several coats , feathering the edges out with thinners .

  There should be no problems getting hold of it in Europe and to get hold of it in The US I would check out the military modelling retailers . Someone will have it .


   Nick


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on August 09, 2009, 11:24:37 AM
A close up . Possibly too close .


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ken Hamilton on August 14, 2009, 11:33:53 AM
I haven't been here in a little while & am just catching up with the new photos.

Jacq, this is CRAZY.  The finishes are superb. Beautiful job so far.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Chuck Doan on August 14, 2009, 11:48:48 AM
A beautiful piece, Jacq!

For oils and grease I just mix black with a dark brown to get a nice color. I usually thin it for application.

Nick, I'm thinking you should be posting more photos somewhere....or have I missed something?


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on August 14, 2009, 06:22:54 PM
A beautiful piece, Jacq!

For oils and grease I just mix black with a dark brown to get a nice color. I usually thin it for application.

Nick, I'm thinking you should be posting more photos somewhere....or have I missed something?

  Chuck ,

   You haven't missed anything , these are the first photos I have posted . The thing is , I feel so intimidated with all you top notch modellers posting all this great stuff that I am reluctant to show my feeble efforts .

  Nick



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on August 15, 2009, 02:48:36 AM

   
Quote
I feel so intimidated with all you top notch modellers posting all this great stuff that I am reluctant to show my feeble efforts .

  B.llsh.t

   You are just too lazy to show your fantastic work.

   Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on August 15, 2009, 03:53:46 PM

  I never paid much attention to the size of the figures I used for comparisson, untill I receiced some 1:48 figures.
  Looking at the figures used, they turned out to be Phoenix O scale figures.  And here we go again like on the larger scales from 1:22,5 to 1:32
  there is a large variaty in O scale figures.

  O scale in Europe is mainly 1:43.5  ( 2 x H0 )  and since Lenz brought out their O size stuff we have also 1:45.
  O size in the US is 1:48 ( I assume)

  The difference in figures amazed me. I realised that p.e. the 1:50 Preisser figures are closer to 1:48 than the Phoeix 1:43.5 figures.

  (http://images52.fotki.com/v1554/photos/7/1437817/7407986/DSC_3239-vi.jpg)

  Here two figures of males of approx the same size, the smaller one is 1.68m in 1:48 and the other one is 1,74m in 1:43,5.
  The larger one is 1.92m in 1:48.

  With the 1:48 figures between the machinery, the mil at once looks much larger than with the 1:43.5 figures

  This leaves only the 1:48 figures from New Zealand as crew for the mill, or I have to apply a lot of plastic  :D surgery to 1:48 military figures.

   Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on August 15, 2009, 04:17:03 PM

   
Quote
I feel so intimidated with all you top notch modellers posting all this great stuff that I am reluctant to show my feeble efforts .

  B.llsh.t

   You are just too lazy to show your fantastic work.

   Jacq

  Jacq ,

   Of course it is BILLSHUT . However , My friend has been taking some decent shots of what I've been up to recently so I'll post them on the Forum somewhere .... if I can summon the energy to be bothered !


    Nick


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Hume Lumber Co on August 15, 2009, 10:38:48 PM

  O scale in Europe is mainly 1:43.5  ( 2 x H0 )  and since Lenz brought out their O size stuff we have also 1:45.
  O size in the US is 1:48 ( I assume)

    Jacq

Jacq,
I would have assumed that people in the USA would be larger since we have a problem with obesity over here:)

On a more serious note.  The photos I see of loggers from Hume are thin.  There are some that were tall like
"Big Bill Mills who stood well over size feet, weighed 230 pounds or more, and could do the work of two men."  (The Felled the Redwoods page 90.)  So out of the two men you show l think the smaller one is closer looking to how it was even if he represents a little smaller guy that may have been more in line with the times.  But it looks like he has a bear belly.  I guess he went to Anderson's Tavern too much.

I look forward to how you will solve the problem.

Matthew


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Frederic Testard on August 17, 2009, 02:26:49 AM
Jacq, I've been absent for a while and discover the more recent progress on this thread. I must say that your edger really impresses me, and shows once again the extraordinary possibilities willing modellers have when they work with styrene.
The size difference between figures modelled in scales apparently close is not that surprising. There's a relative difference of about 10% between 1/43.5 and 1/48. This is quite a lot.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Franck Tavernier on August 19, 2009, 09:12:18 AM
Amazing work Jacq!!! You are awesome  ;)

About figures, don't forget, the size of a man on average lies between 1,70m and 1,85m (what seems to be a good compromise), which for example must give you in 1:48 scale, figurines of 35.5mm height approximately for 1,70m and 38.5mm height approximately for 1,85m…

Buffalo Landing Detail Parts have a set of five cast pewter figures modelled on Westside loggers and workers from the 1950’s and 1960’s. They were based on real characters from the West Side Lumber Co in California.
There are other sets of 2,6, 7 all different figures and another 13 figures, 33 in total !!!

These Figures are available from Coronado Scale Models and Caboose Hobbies  ;)


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Franck Tavernier on August 19, 2009, 09:16:33 AM
Nick, could you possibly tell us more on your nice little Deutz and diorama / layout? Moreover in 1:35 scale!!!! ;)


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on August 19, 2009, 11:30:07 AM
Nick, could you possibly tell us more on your nice little Deutz and diorama / layout? Moreover in 1:35 scale!!!! ;)

  Franck ,

   I can , but I won't hijack Jacq's thread so I'll move to another thread . However , I don't really want to go into it in to much detail until I get hold of the photos that my friend took at the weekend as they promise to be much better than mine ,

   Nick


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on August 19, 2009, 01:29:34 PM
Nick, could you possibly tell us more on your nice little Deutz and diorama / layout? Moreover in 1:35 scale!!!! ;)

  Franck ,

   I can , but I won't hijack Jacq's thread so I'll move to another thread . However , I don't really want to go into it in to much detail until I get hold of the photos that my friend took at the weekend as they promise to be much better than mine ,

   Nick


Wow! :o  the "Man of a Thousand Excuses"....and I thought I was bad......you definitely take the cake! ;D


Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on August 19, 2009, 02:06:37 PM
Nick, could you possibly tell us more on your nice little Deutz and diorama / layout? Moreover in 1:35 scale!!!! ;)

  Franck ,

   I can , but I won't hijack Jacq's thread so I'll move to another thread . However , I don't really want to go into it in to much detail until I get hold of the photos that my friend took at the weekend as they promise to be much better than mine ,

   Nick


Wow! :o  the "Man of a Thousand Excuses"....and I thought I was bad......you definitely take the cake! ;D


Marc

  Are you still coming over to Euro Militaire ? Because if you are you are in danger of losing your lift !

  Still , at least it is finished ...mostly .

  Nick



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: RoughboyModelworks on August 20, 2009, 09:35:38 PM
A substantial amount of excellent progress Jacq since I last checked this thread... you're setting a benchmark for mills in this scale.

Paul


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on August 26, 2009, 11:25:36 AM

   The first test of the trimmer saws. 

   (http://images49.fotki.com/v1495/photos/7/1437817/7434794/DSC_2976-vi.jpg)

   8 saw assemblies have been used for the trimmer saw, based on 16'0" lumber length.
   Saw is made from Sierra West 24" circular saws, collets made from 1:350 winch flanges and alum. tubing

   (http://images52.fotki.com/v1567/photos/7/1437817/7434794/DSC_3527-vi.jpg)

   Complete saws over trimmer table.

   (http://images51.fotki.com/v1561/photos/7/1437817/7434794/DSC_3528-vi.jpg)

   Side view. Drive belts, couter weight, pulling chords and operators platform with handles to be added.

   (http://images52.fotki.com/v1563/photos/7/1437817/7434794/DSC_3525-vi.jpg)

   Overal view of test set up.

   (http://images51.fotki.com/v1561/photos/7/1437817/7434794/DSC_3529-vi.jpg)

   Slash cross transfer chains from edger table to position of slasher saws still to be installed.

   (http://images50.fotki.com/v1570/photos/7/1437817/7434794/DSC_3526-vi.jpg)

   (http://images52.fotki.com/v1568/photos/7/1437817/7434794/DSC_3530-vi.jpg)

     Hope to finish the sawing floor within the next 2 weeks.
     After that the fun starts, the landscape with the foundations, groundfloor, logpond dam, boiler house, etc etc.

   Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on August 26, 2009, 01:13:05 PM
I foresee a major problem with your model: It will require hours of scrutiny to absorb and appreciate all the detail and the superiority of your craftsmanship. Even at this point the breadth of your accomplishment is overwhelming. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on August 26, 2009, 08:16:46 PM
How long have you been working on this project?




Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on August 27, 2009, 03:16:25 AM
  Ray,

   Christmas 2007 the children challenged me to do something with the On30 stuff they have been giving me on special days.
   As this was all B-mann logging material, together with my facination for sawmills, it was a logic step to search for information for an american logging layout. The first thing encountered were links and adds found in the NGSL gazette. Most did not appeal to me as it looked too overdone, excagerated and romanticised. Nothing realistic. A discussion on one of the fora run a bit out of hand with the result Marc invited me to look at Finescalerr.com. Marc started a discussion post at started it. This enabled me to explain what I was looking for. The idea's slowly took shape, the first parts were built from the bandsaw and carriage kit and after a very, very hectic tranferring of the last bits of work, real construction started around September/October 2008. The intention is to have the complete 16'0" diorama ready by the end of October 2010.
 I normally spend much time in research and preparations before I start building anything.
 Presently all preparing work for the mill, boilerhouse, engine house and landscaping of the first module are finalized. For the rest already much material is in house and sub-assemblies built, p.e. all machinery for the workshop and enginehouse is built and painted, ready to be put in place.
 I do not watch TV except for news and some nice items on National Geographics or Discovery or a really good movie. With my hearing detoriating to the extend that mainly one to one discussions are still possible, I "withdraw" more and more from most social events. After the time for my normal work around the house and som social family activities, I spend my time in my hobbyroom/workshop.  The hobby has become a happy medium to express myself.  An hearing implant operation has been approved, but I feel reluctant due to the possible  risks and side effects.  Besides, I am not convinced yet that it really will improve my life.

Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on August 27, 2009, 11:15:57 AM
Jacq ,

   As long we have the use of our eyes and hands for modelling then everything else is surplus . Of course , what may be surplus for modelling purposes may be essential for other things .

   Did you want us to shout a bit louder when we talk to you ?

  The sawmill is beginning to look amazing , I pity anyone from now on who wants to model such a building . They can only be pale imitations of yours ,

  Nick




Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on August 27, 2009, 12:55:32 PM
Jacq,

Just one of the most outstanding builds on this forum or any other forum.
I think you just raised the bar so high on Sawmills that you have closed the door to anyone trying to attempt to build a sawmill.

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: MrBrownstone on August 28, 2009, 08:31:07 PM
Hey Guy's

hmmmm... not only did he raise the bar...but turned it into gold.

great work Jacq...

Mike


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on August 31, 2009, 09:25:17 AM

  Nick,

 
Quote
   Did you want us to shout a bit louder when we talk to you ?
  That will only blow the fuses in my hearing aids.
  Loudness is not the problem, the loss of differentation in sounds.

  Here some quickies of the trimmersaws in place. I am not satisfied the colouring around the bearings and will redo it as soon with the correct grease and grime colour.

  (http://images51.fotki.com/v1561/photos/7/1437817/7434794/DSC_3532-vi.jpg)

  Saws set for standard 16'0" length.

  (http://images52.fotki.com/v1568/photos/7/1437817/7434794/DSC_3533-vi.jpg)

  (http://images51.fotki.com/v1561/photos/7/1437817/7434794/DSC_3534-vi.jpg)

  (http://images30.fotki.com/v51/photos/7/1437817/7434794/DSC_3536-vi.jpg)

  (http://images50.fotki.com/v1572/photos/7/1437817/7434794/DSC_3537-vi.jpg)

  (http://images30.fotki.com/v51/photos/7/1437817/7434794/DSC_3539-vi.jpg)

  (http://images30.fotki.com/v50/photos/7/1437817/7434794/DSC_3538-vi.jpg)

  (http://images50.fotki.com/v393/photos/7/1437817/7434794/DSC_3541-vi.jpg)

  The operators platform is under construction, have to wait for the Buffalo Landing figures.
  Hope Maurice has a sitting figure that I can use.

  Next the cut off saw and slasher saws and all machiney on the sawing floor is in place.

  Jacq

 

 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on August 31, 2009, 01:01:19 PM
I can't believe the detail in those saws. Tell me you're doing it all with mirrors! -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: MrBrownstone on August 31, 2009, 01:31:20 PM
Hey Jacq,

As usual you are just amazing with the details, and so well documented.
(which reminds me...  ;) I am posting picture of the 1:48 brick you were inquiring about.

Russ, He is pretty scary isn't he... (in a good way...  ;D ;D )

Mike


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on August 31, 2009, 03:37:50 PM

   Russ, that's the secret, but I won't tell you where the mirrors are :D :D

   Detail of one of the saws: 

   (http://images46.fotki.com/v1491/photos/7/1437817/7434794/DSC_2977-vi.jpg)

   The blades were donated by Brett...............Thank you again for that, it saved a tremendous amount of work.
   The 3/32" collets on each side are made from the flanges of 1:360 brass ships winch drums, cut in halves and filed flush by hand.
   Each saw assembly has 12 parts plus the belt made from printing paper, "impregnated" with thinned enamel paint and Silverwood + a counterweight assembly of 6 parts, including linkages. Still to be made is the operator's leverbox for lowering/ raising the correct saw(s) in his overhanging "cage".  This fellow was called the "pianoman"

  Jacq
   


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on August 31, 2009, 04:03:14 PM
Hi Jacq,
Great detail with the trimmers, no shortcuts with including the "piano strings"!  The buffalo landing figures do include a great selection of sitting characters and I'm sure you'll find youself a suitable operator in amongst them.  I was actually watching some old B&W film of some logging/sawmill operations the other day, and it featured a similar trimmer saw with footage of the pianoman in action...looked a bit of a stressful job, madly pulling the leavers to clean up the boards that were rolling across the table at a rapid rate.  I guess they were making a cut every 2 seconds at peak speed.

Cheers,
Dan


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on August 31, 2009, 08:02:12 PM
Amazing detail! The whole mill deserves to be in a museum somewhere.






Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: John McGuyer on September 01, 2009, 10:19:56 AM
Where in the world are you getting such fine detail information to build this?

John


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Scratchman on September 01, 2009, 01:28:30 PM
Jacq,
That is very nice, a lot of work, and a lot more to do. A sawmill diorama has always been one of my want-to-projects, but it will probably never happen. It has been a real treat to see yours and Marty Jones' dioramas come together. Not a bad idea, modeling vicariously through others.

Gordon Birrrell

http://www.flickr.com/photos/77318580@N00/


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on September 09, 2009, 06:37:38 AM
  John,

 
Quote
Where in the world are you getting such fine detail information to build this?

 1. The book Lumber by Ralph C Bryant  via Google books. Paul send me the book in 2 PDF files last year, it was not possible to download outside
     the USA.
 2. Internet searches  and the Habs Haer files
 3. Patents between 1875 and 1915 on sawmill machinery.
 4. My professional background as analyst of various engineering failures gave me the insight in the smaller details of machinery constructions.
 5. Intuition which made it possible to deduct how something fits together ( or falls apart).
 6. Patience to find material to make the items.
 7. Not giving up after the x-th failure to produce something to my quality standards.
 8. Steam in the woods, the unsurpassed site by Marc.  This site radiated the atmosphere of a bygone era. This site was of great importance
     as it made me aware of what logging really was instead of the information found on some " romantizing" fora with conspiracy type advise.

  It appears a long list, but it turns quickly into a habit to reccognise the best stuff to use for the apropriate construction. It has also become a sport to try to built everything out of simple materials and with simple tools.

  Presently I am studying the refuse management ( sawdust, chips, slabs, etc) which is an important issue to keep a mill running together with the motive power requirements for this mill. Good fun to find out how much horspower is needed for all equipment, the transmission losses etc to be able to determine the boiler sizes, engines and shafting needs.

 By the time I have finished this project, I'll think I'll understand the basics of the lumber trade up to the distribution.

  Jacq
 

 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on September 09, 2009, 10:45:25 AM
Jacq

Just gets better everytime I visit your masterpiece.

God I hope Ken doesn't take you up on doing this in 1/2" Scale for his Lumber Buggies & Stackers.  Although it would be quite nice don't you think?  Besides what are doing for your next act.

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: John McGuyer on September 11, 2009, 11:06:09 AM
Finding detailed information to model by is so difficult. When doing things such as my cab-forward, I can find hordes of photographs of them working their way up a canyon with 100 cars in tow and great columns of smoke.  But try to find a shot of where the air pump lines run is next to impossible. I lost TWICE on e-bay at $175.00 for a book that detailed a lot of this info.

You have done well my friend at finding the information on this project. Quite often learning, as you have obviously done, is half the fun of building these things.

John


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on September 29, 2009, 06:34:19 AM

  Maybe the time of the year, but I felt like being in the Doldrums. No progress or fresh wind to get myself going.
  I have to order the lumber for the modules but each time something else pops up. >:( >:(

  so I decided to begin with the preparation of the boiler- and engine houses.

  The Western Scale and CHB brick tube boilers are very good models, but not suitable for sawdust burning. I have to convert them to Dutch ovens with a larger combustion chamber and chute feeders for the sawdust.

  The total amount of power required :

  head bandsaw         200 hp
  resaw                    100 hp
  edger                      75 hp
  trimmer                   25  hp
  slasher                    25 hp
  rolls etc                  50 hp
  hog/grinder              25 hp

  net                       500hp      transmission losses  25% - 30%
 
  total available   2 x Ames 2 cyl. Regal     440 hp      Western Scale kits
                        1 x         2 cyl              120 hp      CHB kit

  shotgun carriage  direct fed from boilers by 2 valve controls.
  logturners             -,,-                       

  total boilers required  4 x 175/200 hp boilers  @ 125/150 psi

  The available modeling space is limited, so the idea is to built the boiler house as a cut through version showing the inside of the boilerhouse and one boiler cut open, showing it's intestines. 
  The biggest challenge will be to fit the steam engines in the available space, including belttensioners etc /etc.

 As the whole scene is static, I have sought a moment where the mainline stands still in the daily running.
This is the moment the headrig bandsaw is exchanged. This occurs normally every 21/2 - 4 hours.
  I will try to built this moment when finalising the layout with figures and details.
 
 Jacq

 
 

 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Chuck Doan on September 29, 2009, 12:45:46 PM
Others have built large sawmills, but no one I have seen has thought it through like you are doing. If you take it to a show, I hope you can include some of this information so at least some caring spectators can appreciate it more.




Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on September 29, 2009, 01:11:11 PM
Talk about thinking through a model! I have watched in awe as Chuck researches peeling paint and broken windows, then recreates them in miniature. Now I witness Jacq's quest to replicate scale hardware of the proper horsepower for a 1:48 mill. There must be a higher category for such devotion to the art and science of our hobby than simply "modeling". -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on September 29, 2009, 07:13:56 PM
How could this be judged by anyone this is finest Sawmill that I've seen.  All the research that has gone into the building and then to share it all with us.

They would have to make a special category.

There is just the finest modelers on this forum.  And to have someone of your talent here just makes it even better.

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on September 29, 2009, 11:09:07 PM
Look...the sad truth is..no matter how accurate and awe inspiring it is...and to what beautiful and higher standard it is built, it doesnt stand a chance at winning anything....

There were no posicle sticks used in it's construction
He did not use the cheapest craft paints and materials
He will not have poorly painted figures..and that are shiny
He is not going to have vegetation/grass around it that look like hairplugs
There is not enough orange rust
There are not enough crappy resin clutter castings with mediocre paint work
There is no rust-bucket locomotive included with antlers and draped chains
....oh the list is endless


And for those that don't believe me......the proof lies in Chuck Doan's beautiful Red Oaks Garage dio.....it was head and shoulders above anything in that room...but didn't place or win anything, yet it has been copied and emulated dozens of times since them...even worse, they placed my mediocre non-effort dio.

So you see....the judging masses are completely inept and incompetent doofuses when it comes to appreciating great work.....because it does not look "funner"...and it has "standards"...heaven forbid he even used a scale, reference material, his cuts are square, and his wood is not fuzzy....they cant get their narrow little minds around it.

....but please do not let that stop you from bringing it......cause I, and I know others here, would definitely like to see and appreciate it.


M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on September 30, 2009, 01:47:39 AM
We don't build for the "masses". We build for ourselves and each other. Those who don't appreciate great work don't deserve and will never enjoy the pleasure such models bring. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on September 30, 2009, 03:26:30 AM
Quote
There were no posicle sticks used in it's construction
He did not use the cheapest craft paints and materials
He will not have poorly painted figures..and that are shiny
He is not going to have vegetation/grass around it that look like hairplugs
There is not enough orange rust
There are not enough crappy resin clutter castings with mediocre paint work
There is no rust-bucket locomotive included with antlers and draped chains
....oh the list is endless

The dio isn't finished yet  :D :D :D :D ::)

Quote
We don't build for the "masses". We build for ourselves and each other
   :o :o  I thought only for the competitions. I must be on the wrong forum, getting such advise  ::) ::) ::)

All thanks for the comments, it shows that most of us have the same attitudes and share similar philosphies about modeling.
If it is possible to bring the mill module, it is not for any contest. Maybe it is possible to be part of p.e.  the Finescale RR table or as background for Marc's models..................

Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on September 30, 2009, 08:03:07 AM
Marc or Chuck

Question in what year did Chuck have the Red Oak Garage at the show and where was the show held?

Just was wondering.

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on September 30, 2009, 11:34:52 AM
Marc or Chuck

Question in what year did Chuck have the Red Oak Garage at the show and where was the show held?

Just was wondering.

Jerry
 

   Jerry ,

  I believe it was at Dearborn and the year 2005(?).

  Nick

 p.s. I need your address


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Chuck Doan on September 30, 2009, 11:59:55 AM
It was Santa Clara in 2004. And because of Marc's stand out diorama, I got hooked up with this crew.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on September 30, 2009, 12:55:47 PM
Don't blame Marc, Chuck. You are as loony as the rest of us.

And let's get a couple of other facts clear about 2004: Chuck's diorama was against a wall between a couple of larger, better illuminated (albeit inferior) dioramas. His was a cutaway whereas the others showed entire structures. The First Place Diorama was either next to Chuck's garage or one model removed. It had its own exterior and interior lighting, lots of trees on a hillside, and frosted weathering on the wood. The model was Brian Nolan's car shop.

The Great Unwashed simply don't understand such concepts as subtlety, perfection in a small space, cutway dioramas, or the understatement necessary for ultimate realism. To them, bigger is better, brighter is righter, cutaway is throwaway. Most probably didn't even stop to look closely at Chuck's compact gem.

Marc's model was at the end of the row of tables, closer to the window. It definitely deserved a prize. (Please note: Marc actually completed that diorama.)

Chuck also entered a 1:48 scale engine service facility and placed it on a better lighted table closer to the center of the room. I published an article about that model a couple of years ago. It is typical of Chuck's meticulous, super-realistic work. It, too deserved some kind of prize but got lost among the bigger, more glamorous entries.

As I recall, third place went to a relatively crude logging enginehouse or something like that.

That is why I suggest we not worry about prizes or accolades by half blind, unsophisticated guys intimidated by superiority. A friend recently suggested I start giving the Westlake Publishing Prize for excellence. But I think a better idea would be for all of us to put our models together on one or two tables and leave it at that. It might make the statement that we quietly lead by example rather than try to shout with the loudest voice.

Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: MrBrownstone on September 30, 2009, 01:41:16 PM
Hey Guy's,
Quote
Russ: A friend recently suggested I start giving the Westlake Publishing Prize for excellence.

I'll be happy to donate a $100.00 to the prize pool....  :o
If it helps get something like that started....
(who knows maybe I'll win it one year...<--- thinking positive... heh... If we are all still alive by then  :D ;D ;) :D )

Mike




Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on September 30, 2009, 02:49:27 PM
It was Santa Clara in 2004. And because of Marc's stand out diorama, I got hooked up with this crew.

  I was close !

    Nick


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on September 30, 2009, 03:05:24 PM


That is why I suggest we not worry about prizes or accolades by half blind, unsophisticated guys intimidated by superiority. A friend recently suggested I start giving the Westlake Publishing Prize for excellence. But I think a better idea would be for all of us to put our models together on one or two tables and leave it at that. It might make the statement that we quietly lead by example rather than try to shout with the loudest voice.

Russ


   So , Russ , are you suggesting that starts at next years convention ?  So it will almost be like a club stand . Does that mean we get a T shirt ?
    However , I can't see that happening until 2013 when the convention comes to your neck of the woods again .

  I would happily not bother entering the competition if there were somewhere separate to display my meagre offering  amongst the "creme de la creme" .

   Nick

 



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: RoughboyModelworks on September 30, 2009, 04:23:55 PM
But I think a better idea would be for all of us to put our models together on one or two tables and leave it at that. It might make the statement that we quietly lead by example rather than try to shout with the loudest voice.

Russ

Speak softly and carry a big stick has always been my preferred plan of attack...  ;)

Paul


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on October 08, 2009, 02:57:05 AM
   I received from Mike (Mr Brownstone) a large parcel with various castings. The O scale brick panel looks very good and will be used for the open worked dutch oven. The drystacked wall parts will find their place on various points on the dio.

   The same day 31 figures from Buffalo Landing arrived. Very nice and a large variety in postures. Very well cast with no/little flash or visible parting lines.  I'll have to modify most by setting them back in time to approx 1914-1920 by replacing hardhats for normal hats, etc. Lots of possibilities. Finally I can finish the trimmersaw with the operators (pianoman) platform.

 Coming weekend I am invited to the bi-annual exhibition in Sedan. This is one of the leading shows in north east France ( Champagne/Ardennes)  In 1,5 days 10.000 visitors.  A mix of all modeling disciplines. I'll report when back next week.
 This will be one of the last shows the H0 layout will be shown.

 Looking forward to next week with normal time for modeling again.

 Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on October 26, 2009, 05:33:29 AM

 
  My large H0 layout Dreimuehlental will go to Walferdange and Leverkusen ( FdE Burscheid jubileum)
  After that I do not intend to visit exhibitions with it and plan to sell the layout.

  As I have no experience in selling I am hoping one or more of can help me with some good suggestions.

 It will not mean the end of modeling, but the emphasis is shifting to finalising the sawmill diorama and some new idea's in a larger scale.
 The farm/watermill ( Aschenbach painting) in combination with a feldbahn / log loading in the woods.

 Max 4 modules ( 4.80m) with focused subjects.

 Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on October 26, 2009, 10:47:25 PM
Quote
After that I do not intend to visit exhibitions with it and plan to sell the layout.

Wow...the end of an era. It's a beautiful piece of work...hopefully it will find a good and deserving home.



Since you like the unique......for the feldbahn loading in the woods, I have a Reeeaaaaly interesting twist for you if you are interested (though you would need to learn to model elephants)......"The Cochin Forest Railway"....it was built by the British in India, and used all O&K loco's cars and equipment (I worked on, and collaborated on, research for an article of this RR a while back).....Russ wasn't interested in publishing it :'( :'( :'(

The B&W photos on this page are actually from my collection (used by Devan with permission)...the color ones are his from his recent following of the old grade

http://www.irfca.org/gallery/Heritage/CochinStateForestTramway/ (http://www.irfca.org/gallery/Heritage/CochinStateForestTramway/)


Devan's Version of the article and history of the RR can be found here.
http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:uAA6Wn0kdgYJ:www.irfca.org/articles/CochinStateForestTramwayJournal.doc+cochin+forest+railway&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us (http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:uAA6Wn0kdgYJ:www.irfca.org/articles/CochinStateForestTramwayJournal.doc+cochin+forest+railway&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)


Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on October 28, 2009, 08:17:38 AM
  Marc,

  this definitely is interesting. The challenge lies in trying to catch the mix of indian / british / O&K characteristics.
  Are there beside the article and photo's more details available, like track plans, geograhic details of the zigzags, plans of rolling stock.
  Especially the logging disconnects and some other waggons do show more an english profile than O&K feldbahn types.
  The most important item will be plans of the material as everthing will have to be built from scratch.
  This way seeds for idea's are planted.  The european and american railway scenes have been covered to such an extend that idea's like this are worthwhile to investigate. A lot to be studied in this instance. 

  But first: back to the sawmill. Tonight I will collect all the lumber for the module frames, so I can start on the landscaping for the groundfloor,  dam, foundations of the boiler- and engine house and the railway.  

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on October 28, 2009, 01:43:20 PM
Jacq,

My article/approach focused more on equipment and characteristics of the line. All the rail equipment was O&K including th log cars (have found the catalog cuts) and I believe the equipment for the incline machinery as well. As such it goes a long way towards assuming that the derricks for loading were also. It was all shipped by freighter to the port of Cochin, and the loaded on the Std. Ga. Indian Railways cars for delivery to the starting point of the line in Chalakudy, where they had their shops.  Seeing the British penchant for order organization and, efficiency (almost teutonic in a way) it is unlikely that two many sources, mfrs and different points of loading would have been used, especially considering the complexity involved in building of the line. 

The line was divided into two sections. From the shops to the first inclines, and from the inclines to Parambikulum. The first section was served by the larger locos, and the second due to its winding line, and grades was served by the smaller ones. I have some maps show the rail line. The most thorough being one that was done by the US Army after WW2....though it does still leave out some of the nuances. [Side Note: This is how I found out about the Klein-Linder Radiating Axles that Paul talks about in another thread here....they were used on the locos on this line]

Those images that you see on Devan's site/post (and now apparently have been clipped and use by numerous parties online...including the "Prambikulum Forest Preserve") are the only photos that have surfaced of the line. Devan (who lives in India ) heavily researched the line and seeing that he has only posted mine, (as well as the State of Cochin' Forestry Preserve Agency using them) makes me think that he has not found any additional photos.  I do have better and larger scans of them.

I began my research when I came across the images....I was just fascinated by this operation and its aesthetic character.

There are a couple of US operations in Honduras that I also started dabbling in...one had a McGiffert loader that it appears had to be shipped up one of those jungle rivers....brought all sorts of images of Fitzcaraldo to mind.

There were also some really neat logging operations in Argentina that used the O&K equipment.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on October 28, 2009, 01:58:35 PM
Here are two pics from SA I had on hand.

One is Argentina, the other is Paraguay.

M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: lucas gargoloff on October 28, 2009, 04:46:07 PM
I have some pics somewhere in my puter, let me find them!! Lots of O&K stuffs


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on October 28, 2009, 06:03:23 PM
Marc, have you tried submitting it to the Gazette? They've published a lot of articles on odd little foreign lines.



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on October 28, 2009, 11:21:05 PM
Marc, have you tried submitting it to the Gazette? They've published a lot of articles on odd little foreign lines.

Ray,

Thanks for the thought. I havent done so....only because of my personal feelings towards what the Gazette has become; not a magazine I really want to be part of. At one time I was considering sending it to Tall Timber Shortlines or Timber Times.
One of the problems it has, is, not many photos....the ones you saw, plus various additional equipment catalog cuts is all there are (so not enough just "looking", but actually requiring reading and imagination)....the other problem is that the American model RR community is for the most part very myopic when it comes to subject manner.....if it involves RR's that did not use US equipment, were in other countries, (other than maybe England, Australia, New Zealand) they generally have little to no interest.  They would rather look at some Colorado car or loco for the 10,000th time, than have to read or learn about something outside their comfort zone/typical cr*p.


Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Mr Potato Head on November 05, 2009, 04:39:41 PM
Marc!
What about your own book! I was amazed how much money was shelled out at the last convention for reprinted picture books in "German" or "French"  I love my Charles Small books! come on you can do it! if you can't do it sub it out to a publisher, there have got be be thousand of out of work publishers who need the work!
Gil
Do what you do best and let others do the rest for you! ;D


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: lab-dad on November 05, 2009, 06:30:53 PM
As long as the images are jpg's you can use MyPublisher(or sim outfit) and do them pretty cheap.
I have done several, even one on the Plymouth.
-Marty


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on November 06, 2009, 01:33:10 AM
Marc!
What about your own book!

Yeah....I'll get right on that. ::)........like I have the time  :-\.....I know too many people in the publishing business to ever want to get involved in that....noooo, thanks.....it's enough work/time dealing with the people that want to use my stuff for their books.

Speaking of nothing better to do......how's that layout coming Gil? ;) ;D


M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on November 12, 2009, 05:48:45 AM

  Problems.................
  during upgrade of the computer, all files were, as the normal routine, stored on the external back up hard disk.
  When trying to recover the backed up material, the hard disk refused to connect.
  I hope it will be resolved, otherwise all gathered information about sawmilling will be lost. :'( :'(
  Luckily my progress photo's are not involved.

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on November 12, 2009, 01:41:09 PM
Jacq, you know that it is possible to get data from a defective hard drive, right? Some businesses specialize in data retrieval. You may yet live happily ever after. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on November 12, 2009, 02:50:09 PM
Jacq,

Sorry to hear this, hopefully you can get it all working or recover the data. Iknow this kind of stuff is really frustrating.

Sound a bit like a driver, or compatability, error...but what do I know :-\


M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on November 12, 2009, 04:44:53 PM

 Russ, Marc   there is hope...

 My youngest son has good hope he will be able to retrieve the data from the crashed hard disk.  Tomorrow I'll know more.
 Most probably he has done so already and keeps up the tension in the hope to get extra when he goes to Korea in Januari.
 He has been selected by the University of Seoul to follow special topics for half a year in Suwon. He is finalizing his BSc in Mechatronics.

 The timber for the modules have been cut to size so the mill module can be finalised.  Photo's to show the the progress steps
 will shortly be added.

  Jacq
 
 
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on November 13, 2009, 03:18:47 AM
That sounds like good news, Jacq. But next time please remember to attach the photos! -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on November 16, 2009, 03:15:29 PM
 Progres at last......

 After picking up the lumber on Saturday, I had some time to put the base for the mill together.

 (http://images46.fotki.com/v1493/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_3707-vi.jpg)

 The basic shape has been cut. The level of the mill's groundfloor is in and the grid laid out.

 (http://images53.fotki.com/v419/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_3709-vi.jpg)

 A paper mockup of the boiler house with a WS boiler for comparrison.

 (http://images29.fotki.com/v317/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_3711-vi.jpg)

 A scale drwg of the dam arches showing the relative size. Only 2 1/4 arches and the end wall will be built
 The height on the downstream side will be 6"-7" and will be a scale 2'0" thick.
 Photo's of the dam show a coarse granite agregate. Has anyone an idea what size was used?

 (http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/habshaer/ca/ca1200/ca1294/photos/011029pr.jpg)

 From Habs Haer photo's of Hume Lake dam

 I am building timberlined plastified carton casting jigs, so I can cast with very fine cement, sand and cement the dam, footings and
 pulley line bearingseats. But first some tests to see or the casings can be removed easily and some reinforcements are needed.
 When the test works out ok, I'll do the boiler house and power house also in concrete like the original buildings.

 I've done it years ago with succes  on a H0 road. I'll dig up a photo.

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on November 16, 2009, 03:46:24 PM
Jacq,

Knowing the region and the diffculty in access (especially in those days), they would have used local (on site) aggregate/stone/sand/gravel, mixed with cement that was hauled up by mules/wagons from the Fresno.  From trips there, I recall that the local stone in the Yosemite region seems to be predominantly Granite, so it would figure that they used this type of aggregate and sand in the mix.

Beautiful work on the module frame. The layout of the mill and dam look like they will work very well and be visually dynamic.


M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on November 16, 2009, 03:53:20 PM

  Marc,

  any idea of the agregate average size/diameter. I have some fine 0,7 - 1,0 mm diabas H0 ballast, but it doesn't looks and feels ok.
  Suggestions are welcome.

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: MrBrownstone on November 16, 2009, 04:31:07 PM
Hey Jacq,

Might want to load some in a tumbler for awhile to round off the edges.... Just a thought   ???

Mike


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on November 16, 2009, 04:35:34 PM
Jacq,

I would venture to guess around 3/4" (2cm) or so on average...but that is really only a guess.....I know nothing about Dam construction...and even less about that period of dam construction ;).


M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on November 16, 2009, 05:29:33 PM

   
Quote
even less about that period of dam construction

   some nice houses were build in that time ( 1908)

   It looks like 0,5mm grit will do.  I'll try it tomorrow when mixing the first test batch. It could compete with the sand though.   ??? ???

   Structure in place, it turned out what I had in mind. ( see bw. drooldle sketches in an earlier post.

    (http://images47.fotki.com/v1402/photos/1/1437817/7089307/Module1ArtistsImpression-vi.jpg)



    (http://images54.fotki.com/v556/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_3712-vi.jpg)

    (http://images53.fotki.com/v432/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_3713-vi.jpg)

    (http://images52.fotki.com/v304/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_3714-vi.jpg)


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: NORCALLOGGER on November 16, 2009, 07:02:37 PM
Hi Jacq,

Concrete mixes especially for dams can and do fill volumns.

In general for a dam like the one your talking about and of that era
the grizzly and batch plant was set up nearby and only the cement was imported.

For modern era, 1920's till now the typical mix for construction would be
cement, sand and rock.  the rock sand mixture is normally what they call 3/4 minus. 
for strong solid concrete you can't use a mix of cement,sand and large rock even 3/4.  You have to have a graduating scale of sizes from sand up to the largest size aggregate.

In dam constuction that largest size can run to 3-4 inch or bigger but that mix includes all sizes below that down to the sand and cement particals.   Crushed or broken rock requires more cement in the mix than does river run or smooth stones to get the proper binding. 

Looking at the picture you posted of the concrete in the dam you want to model I would make a few guesses. Beyond some weathering and sluffing away it looks like the mix was poured with an incorrect slump ( to dry) and would not flow together.  Further it certainly was not vibrated to fill the voids.  Even in those days (1908) they new enough to wack the forms with a hammer and poke down into the wet mix to fill in those voids.  It also looks like they may have skimped on the proper proportions of the aggregate and used more rock and sand and not much in between. 

For the model just about any size representing up to 2" stone would probably look fine.  Do the same that they did and use a very dry mix and don't pack it in real tight.  I assume you will use board by board rough cut for the forms??

Good luck
I'm looking forward to seeing the results.
Rick Marty



 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on November 16, 2009, 10:50:00 PM
That's going to be a heck of an impressive module!



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on November 17, 2009, 02:40:06 AM
Most adequate thus far. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on November 17, 2009, 03:11:27 AM
Jacq,
The module framing is every bit as clean as the model itself.  Very nice to see the mill starting to find its way to a home.  I look forward to learning a bit about some of your scenery techniques as well once that stage arrives.  I've enjoyed some of the colours and tones you've used on that big old layout of yours, and I want to see how it comes together for this layout.

Cheers,
Dan


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Hauk on November 17, 2009, 03:18:14 AM
Now *there* is a sawmill module!
Thanks for the inspiration.

Regards, Haavard H


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: RoughboyModelworks on November 17, 2009, 09:12:11 PM
Very nicely done benchwork Jacq. Am I correct in my observation that you're using birch plywood for the dominant structural elements?

Paul


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on November 18, 2009, 03:51:12 AM
 
 Paul,

 correct.  12mm thick.  I was able to buy very cheap 50 x 110mm wide and 1550mm long strips from a cabinet maker.
 Saved me a lot of sawing. All fixed with cs screws and fluid PU construction glue.
 These materials, including the PU foam are a pleasure to work with.  I hope to present a complete diorama, including the base, to my quality standards, despite being no carpenter.

 Jacq
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: RoughboyModelworks on November 18, 2009, 09:59:03 AM
Well you say you're no carpenter but the construction looks very sound and up to your usual standards. That 12mm or 1/2" birch ply is wonderful stuff to work with isn't, if a little pricey. It's so stable, strong and light-weight in comparison to other plys and an excellent choice for benchwork.

Paul


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on November 19, 2009, 10:54:30 AM

  I was lucky to get the 12mm boards for Euro 0,40 a piece. 50 pieces was Euro 20,- = approx $ 30,-.
  A full 4 x 8 sheet of 1/2" is costing in the discount store Euro 48,00. So I was lucky. All timber for the complete diorama for Euro 20,-

  Here some progress.   trying to establish what will be best valance height. The one shown is approx 420 mm

  (http://images53.fotki.com/v419/photos/7/1437817/7407986/DSC_3716-vi.jpg)

  There will be no uprights on the front.  Dam tryout with height of approx. 50mm above waterlevel.  Roadbed is in place approx 100mm above  waterlevel.

  (http://images54.fotki.com/v556/photos/7/1437817/7407986/DSC_3715-vi.jpg)

  Valance size will be 100 - 125 mm  sort of lamps not decided yet. Alternative to globes necessary as globes will be banned for sale from end of 2010 ( as far as I know) Thinking of warm tubes and some LED spots behind difuse ceiling plate.

 Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on November 19, 2009, 03:05:53 PM
Jacq,
I think I like the tight viewing gap.  I've been toying with that sort of gap with my ideas pile for my next exhibition layout (once Dolly Varden has retired).  We used an opening of about 550mm I think, mainly to get more of the verticle presence on show.  The narrower window though forces your focus back onto/into the model more.  In this particular case, the goal is to get the viewer bent over peering into the workings of the mill.  I like it... has my vote... measure twice, cut once.

Dan


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on November 19, 2009, 03:52:09 PM
Jacq,

I Like that you are cropping the image tight...I can't really say from a photo, as this is always something better seen in actual 3D.....I like tightly cropped views...but it seems to me to be just a few cm tight at the top.....but like I said, hard to judge in a photo.


I do have to say, I am not sure about the height of the roadbed....seems to cut a bit high onto the scene and mill proportion. ....again maybe it's all just in the photo...or my being hung up on the Hume mill images.....but I would think that at least not having an even 50mm for both the dam and the roadbed would be better, as these are both sight-line gauges....maybe make the ratio 2/3 to 1/3 or some random difference....by simply lowering the track grade.

Another thought on the track height (as inregards to water level) is how will this affect the way you see the rollway in the later scene....will it be sloped so steeply as to maybe be viewed as "blocky"  in the overall scene? (I hope you understand what I am getting at).

I also think that by bringing the grade down, it will help give a taller/larger scale to the mill and the feeling of taller/more towering trees in subsequent scenes.


M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on November 19, 2009, 04:40:27 PM
 
  Marc,

  I am still expirementing with the valance height. I first had 470 - 450 mm as on my H0 layout. Maybe best to take some photo's on the anticipated average eye level ( 1600mm) , which imo should be just under the lower edge of the valance

  top of rail is the same as the loghaul railheight on the tressle crossing the dam arches.  I am still playing with the height of the dam collar but I am limited by the slope of the loghaul.
  It appears from photo's that the main supporting timbers of the bridge across the arches are around 18"
  Distance roadbed ( top of rail)  to the waterlevel is 65mm and the dam top is now 35 - 40 mm above waterlevel.
  That makes it possible to built the bridge over the arches. Based on the tressle construction I adapt the dam height. 
  Approx 12'0" looks acceptable to me for the logbrow above waterlevel. The distances to the waterlevel will be reduced by +/- 5 mm when the acryl or glas plate goes in. When the glas can be cut with the dam arch radius, I'll use glass, otherwise acryl.

  As I have a double track on the logdump module, I am looking which variant fits best to the geographic situation: Hume Lake or Sugarpine logdump or maybe a combination.  Things are going as planned.  building one module and planning the details of the next one.  It all must be in balance with the overall concept along the lines of the Mumby photo. The biggest challenge there is the transition workshops/ "village" on one side to the mill on the other side. Here the logpond and logdump will have a vital role.

Jacq
 
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: RoughboyModelworks on November 19, 2009, 09:43:11 PM
Jacq:

I generally agree with Marc and like the tightly cropped view. The valance height looks right to me in the second photo, perhaps a little tight in the top shot, but will depend on the final viewing height and what landscape, trees or whatever is in the background. I think it's particularly effective with the mill and roadbed at an angle to the front viewing plane... so much more interesting and dynamic than having everything parallel to the front.

Paul


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: MrBrownstone on November 19, 2009, 10:26:54 PM
Hey Jacq,

I like the second shot as well... (from the non-experienced viewer point)

it still has plenty of depth to please the viewer peering/gazing into the subject.

IMO

Mike


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on November 20, 2009, 02:29:31 AM
Isn't the second shot with the same height valance, just from a lower angle?

Dan


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on November 20, 2009, 03:05:50 AM

  Dan,

  checking the photo sequence and the adjustments done to the valance, you are right.
  The second photo is from a lower angle.

  As everything is pulled down to work on the groundfloor level, the next impressions will be with the posts of the lower level temporary in place, water at the correct level and the hill side filled (with green foam ).
  Looking at the photo's and the 3D real set up, it is difficult to form an opinion.
  What is also missing is the influence of the second module on the scene.

  Tomorrow I am of to Lahnstein to see Marcel and Alan. Due some cancelations Marcel has been asked on a few days notice to participate again. Next week I'll set up two modules to see the total set up of the right hand side of the diorama.

 Jacq

 
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on November 20, 2009, 09:10:30 AM
 Here the set up with 2 modules and different valance heights.

 (http://images52.fotki.com/v728/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_3718-vi.jpg)

  Valance lower edge to top of waterlevel  425mm   Pond surface (tan area) to road bed  52 mm 

 (http://images53.fotki.com/v426/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_3719-vi.jpg)

 Space between roof mill and valance appears too much.

(http://images54.fotki.com/v556/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_3721-vi.jpg)

opening reduced by 50 mm. Space to top of roof looks too small.

(http://images54.fotki.com/v555/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_3726-vi.jpg)

this looks al right, a happy compromise between the two previous sizes.

(http://images52.fotki.com/v639/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_3727-vi.jpg)

 The log pond streches from module 2 to the dam on module 4 ( the mill)


(http://images52.fotki.com/v639/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_3728-vi.jpg)

The track is disappearing in a cut in the hillside behind mill. Smaller radii will not be visible nor the opening in the background.
The mill's interior can be viewed from 3 sides. I am still in doubt on closing the long wall on the far side.
Advantage is the function as scenic divider.  Disadvantage is the disappearance of the open character.


Jacq




 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: mobilgas on November 20, 2009, 06:33:13 PM
Jacq,      Now that you posted  pictures of the 2 module's together you can get a better idea of what your shooting for. ;D     Craig


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on November 20, 2009, 07:44:41 PM
Jacq,

It looks very good when connected with the other module. I am glad to hear that you will be running the pond through several of the modules, it will make the seem much more realistic.


I know you probably already are thinking about the log dump, and have a design style in mind....but if you don't mind, I thought just for the fun of it I would post some images of dumps that are sim to your set-up (lower to the water, and against a sloped hill/grade on one side.)...might be something of interest or others might enjoy them.



M




Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on November 20, 2009, 07:45:26 PM
M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on November 20, 2009, 07:55:15 PM
Two from Brookings Lumber Co.

M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on November 20, 2009, 08:06:51 PM
This is Northern California Lumber Co.

The log dump is just visible at the left side of the image (red arrow), the rollway at the right side of image is for logs that were yarded out of the woods via skidroad.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on November 20, 2009, 08:26:50 PM
Wow, those photos are fantastic! You have a great collection of pics, Marc. Thanks for sharing them.



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on November 20, 2009, 10:04:57 PM
Thanks Ray. I got several thousand of these....unfortunately only about 1/4 have been scanned so far.

These two are not mine...found them on the web some time back...don't recall where.


M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: RoughboyModelworks on November 20, 2009, 11:36:38 PM
Jacq:

Valance height looks very good now, still a closely framed image but more balanced. The second module in place helps a lot.  Continuing the log pond through several modules will be much more interesting and enhance the sense of scale and believability.

Paul


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on November 26, 2009, 04:31:18 AM

  Start of the ground works.

  (http://images52.fotki.com/v644/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_3750-vi.jpg)

  (http://images35.fotki.com/v1153/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_3751-vi.jpg)

  To match the floor plane with the hillside in the back, a concrete wall was made to support the hydraulic pressure of the hill above.
  Concrete footings for the machinery and driveline bearings will be put in and the floor shaped accordingly. Only at logical working area's  the floor will be leveled with concrete or boards. The rest will be natural material ( with leftovers from the construction and maintenance, the so called junk  ;D ;D)

 (http://images52.fotki.com/v638/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_3746-vi.jpg)

 Concrete footing iwo first row of posts. Cleaning up still to be done. Possibly rework with finer tile cement.

 (http://images53.fotki.com/v419/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_3749-vi.jpg)

 (http://images52.fotki.com/v738/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_3747-vi.jpg)

 First trial with normal cement with 1:48 figure. Possibly grain too large. Board impressions are barely visible.

(http://images52.fotki.com/v304/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_3744-vi.jpg)

 Transferring machinery locations to ground floor.

(http://images54.fotki.com/v556/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_3738-vi.jpg)

 View on the loading side of the mill.  The dam wall will be cast and the tressles for loghaul and bridge built.

(http://images53.fotki.com/v425/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_3740-vi.jpg)

 Impression on how the mill fits on the module.

 Jacq
  (http://images47.fotki.com/v1401/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_3737-vi.jpg)


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Belg on November 26, 2009, 07:22:12 AM
Marc, thanks for these pics great reference materials. Can I ask were there any kind of tiedowns to stop the railcars from tipping while the logs were dumped?

Jacq, you mentioned in another thread the idea of creating the "canyon view" of the road with the loggers homes, have you incorporated that into the next section and do you have a plan sketch perhaps on how to do this? Thanks Pat


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on November 26, 2009, 08:20:46 AM
  Pat,

  imagine yourselve at the bottom of the canyon and looking towards one side. virtually the canyon is cut in two lengthwise and you look up to one side. I've done this with my H0 layout and many visitors remarked they had the idea standing/floating at the bottom and looking up to one side.

(http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/9161/diorama2wd1.jpg)
 this initial plan should give you an idea. 

 It is possible to create a real cayon view, but it will restrict seeing much. There was one layout built that way and many people complained they didn't see much. Beautiful details, but invisible/very hard to see, except for the operators. They stopped showing it after 2 shows.

Designing a scene I normally look at a much larger geograhic area than the scene I am going to built.
In this instance I have drawn a plan the size of  approx 300mm x 400mm ( an A3 sheet) with the important basic details and lay the outline of the diorama over it. I am moving this outline so often till I am satified. Sometimes I have to compress some distances or sizes, but I do not do this often.  I rather delete some items than sacrify credibility.


 Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Belg on November 26, 2009, 08:54:24 AM
Jacq, by creating the second set of modules you definitely create the canyon effect with the use of some lower hillside on each side you can create some excellent viewing points. I guess they can be called ravines or gorges. You are trying to create a balance between viewing and exact reproduction correct? You said you would rather leave some things out to create a better design this would be an opportunity to add something to create a better result? Pat


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on November 26, 2009, 01:10:01 PM
 
Quote
Only at logical working area's  the floor will be leveled with concrete or boards. The rest will be natural material

  Looking at photo´s of the Hume Bennett mill and remains of other mills, I am now considering making only concrete footings on the original
  rocks and cleared ground. It will give me a chance to model the rocky underground and it will offer a very nice contrast with the floor above.
  I am also not happy with the effect of the concrete seating under the beams and the proposed timber floor.
  Suggestions are welcome.

  Jacq

  I forgot to post this picture:

  (http://images52.fotki.com/v639/photos/7/1437817/7290191/sawmillfoundations-vi.jpg)
courtesy: railpictures.net
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: MrBrownstone on December 01, 2009, 10:32:56 AM
Hello Jacq,

You said:
 I am also not happy with the effect of the concrete seating under the beams and the proposed timber floor.  Suggestions are welcome.

They are too small... step back and look at how much weight is being applied to those footings...

I am sure you will see what I am talking about jacq. (those current footings in the real, would crumble in a very short time)

Mike

EDIT: I mean the small square ones (a little bigger - not much or maybe use the low wall connections in the photo above.)


 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on December 02, 2009, 07:30:32 AM
  Mike.

  the top of the concrete footings under the  12"x 12" pillars have a dimension of 18"x 18" . Is that too small ?  I found info on the web for concrete footing sizes. The real one is  approx 4'0" high and 30"x30" at the bottom, reinforced with steel.
 The footings are in a raster of 12' x 12'6" and 10'x 12,5'  the loading should be within the post's loading according to Euler's law.

  Should it be 24"x24" ?? I still can change it as I haven't cleaned up the parts /area yet.

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: MrBrownstone on December 02, 2009, 04:46:55 PM
Hello Jacq,

actually the 18"x18" would be the proper on the 12"x12", even though the 24"x24" would possibly work but look too big, I don't know if it is me or the photo... it just has this look about it... like it is missing something/strength as I know appearences can be decieving, just looks a little small for multi-levels... I am not one to argue with the math. ( I am going to go out early tomorow and get some footing photos... will see what I can come up with, I am on my home turf in New England for the next week and have some pretty good places to go look for reference and take some photos. (scratching my head on this one.)

I love the progress you have made on the modules btw.  ;D

Mike


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on December 02, 2009, 07:51:13 PM
I think what makes the small footings look insufficient is the excessive coarseness of the mix, and subsequent rough finish. If the footing had a smoother finish it would look more substantial. IMHO.



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on December 03, 2009, 12:30:04 AM
    Mike,
   thanks for the efforts..

  Ray,
  you are right. For the wall the mix looks ok, but for the footing I'll have to use a finer mix to rework the surfaces.


  here some samples of H0 concrete I made from tiling cement on a club module made more than 10 years ago and still in use.

  (http://images43.fotki.com/v1505/photos/7/1437817/7407986/DSC_1431-vi.jpg)

  (http://images47.fotki.com/v1497/photos/7/1437817/7407986/DSC_1430-vi.jpg)


  Jacq
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on December 10, 2009, 04:44:39 PM

  While building the ground floor and working out the required lineshafts I run into a tricky problem.
  Foundation and footing of the part under the log storage and head saw are all in.
 
I am using some antique books and the following http://www.old-engine.com/belts.htm (http://www.old-engine.com/belts.htm) to check the lineshaft and pulley details.
As I have built an mirror image of the sawfloor of the Hume Bennett mill, the steam engines are sitting on the wrong place to get the correct tensions on the pullies. this means I have to rework the innitial positions and add a high power cross-over belt to get the correct rotation of the pullies for the saw and edger.   I'll put up photo's of the progress over the weekend.

Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Chuck Doan on December 10, 2009, 05:26:05 PM
Too much math for me!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: RoughboyModelworks on December 10, 2009, 09:25:16 PM
Apart from the obvious modelling skill that's evident throughout this project, one of the most impressive aspects of this build is the amount of hard research that Jacq has completed and applied to every aspect of this project. We should all be so thorough in our work...

Paul


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on December 11, 2009, 12:23:43 AM

Quote
We should all be so thorough in our work...

...that's what you get from inquisitive, anal retentive, retired engineers. ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D

MR


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: RoughboyModelworks on December 11, 2009, 09:32:34 PM
...that's what you get from inquisitive, anal retentive, retired engineers. ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D

MR

Yah... they're almost as bad as architects....  ;) ;D ;D ;D

Paul


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on December 11, 2009, 11:51:57 PM
  Paul you are right, those architects... thousands of little projects, but no end in sight    ;D ;D

  But I don't give up searching for reliable information and found for belt drives the following.

 http://www.internationalsteam.co.uk/mills/burmamill02.htm (http://www.internationalsteam.co.uk/mills/burmamill02.htm)

  It is part of a large site with a very large amount of interesting items, links etc.  I just looked at the narrow gauge part and 2 hours later realised the time.. ::)

   Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on December 14, 2009, 08:26:38 AM
  Back to the mill.
  I have worked out the lineshaft arrangement on the ground floor.

  The headsaw, the resaw, logcar and drives for resaw and main roller streets together with transferses will be driven by one engine.
  The belts to the headsaw and resaw need to be crossed to get the correct turning direction.
  Here I have my only doubts, the high power required and the crossing belts seem to contradict, but I can't find in all the information I have that this will be a problem.
 All the other drives will be part of the second lineshaft. 
In total there will be 22-24 beltdriven points + headsaw, resaw and edger.  Production of the pullies, bearings and shaft flanges has started, together with the necessary  groundfloor foundations and ceiling hanger positions. As soon as the groundfloor foundations are in place, the floor can be finished.

 (http://images27.fotki.com/v980/photos/7/1437817/8243853/DSC_3858-vi.jpg)

 (http://images19.fotki.com/v35/photos/7/1437817/8243853/DSC_3859-vi.jpg)

 position of driven pullies marked with coloured pins (colour has no meaning YET)

(http://images52.fotki.com/v8/photos/7/1437817/8243853/DSC_3860-vi.jpg)

 area between headsaw, resaw and edger. Lower part of saws will be incorporated in lower structure.

(http://images20.fotki.com/v366/photos/7/1437817/8243853/DSC_3861-vi.jpg)

 area in way of log loading area. concrete in place for saw and Hill logturner ( steamnigger)

(http://images108.fotki.com/v1540/photos/7/1437817/8243853/DSC_3864-vi.jpg)

foundation and support structure of headsaw. I columns to be replaced with H columns
As is visible, grouting for correct position is necessary

(http://images51.fotki.com/v174/photos/7/1437817/8243853/DSC_3863-vi.jpg)

foundation detail of Hill logturner

(http://images17.fotki.com/v374/photos/7/1437817/8243853/DSC_3865-vi.jpg)

detail view of resaw foundation.

(http://images28.fotki.com/v979/photos/7/1437817/8243853/DSC_3867-vi.jpg)

reworked footing under mill columns. finished with tiling cement. when dry surfaces touchrd up with x-cto knife.

Material for concrete :  normal finishing cement to imitate the coarser use and fine tiling cement for the footings and finished surfaces.
                                cement is mixed with water/pva glue in the normal ratio's.

Jacq



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: NORCALLOGGER on December 14, 2009, 11:13:15 PM
Quote
The belts to the headsaw and resaw need to be crossed to get the correct turning direction.
  Here I have my only doubts, the high power required and the crossing belts seem to contradict, but I can't find in all the information I have that this will be a problem.

Jacq,
I don't understand your concern here.  I would think the crossing belts are more a concern of speed (SPM) than one of power (HP) .  If it is a problem reverse your engine and run direct flats to the power hogs and reverse the belts to the lesser machines.

Just a thought
Rick Marty


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on December 14, 2009, 11:29:40 PM
Well, I am thoroughly confused....but, I can say it looks good.

For some reason, the foundation piers still seem a bit small to me...but what do I know. :-\



MR


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on December 16, 2009, 07:07:54 AM
i
Quote
For some reason, the foundation piers still seem a bit small to me...but what do I know.

I have the same feeling, but comparing and checking the horizontal sizes, they appear to be ok.   I can't put my fingers on it , maybe too much parts of approx the same dimensions.

The most probably reason can be the height. Now they are nearly square.  I should have made them a bit higher to my feelings.

Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on December 16, 2009, 11:31:49 PM
Thought you might be interested in this catalog that the Digital archive has available for download.

"Logging By Steam"; 1905 Lidgerwood Logging Machinery Equipment Catalog
http://www.archive.org/details/loggingbysteame00deptgoog (http://www.archive.org/details/loggingbysteame00deptgoog)

Though the photos are mostly devoted to southern and some eastern logging equipment, I think you would still enjoy it imensly (I do mine ;) ) Ligderwood made all sorts of logging equipment from simple donkeys/hoists to huge complex skidding and yarding machines.


MR


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on December 16, 2009, 11:55:36 PM
...and since you are dealing with pulleys and belts, this cataolog might be of interest.

http://www.archive.org/details/generalcatalogse00meesrich (http://www.archive.org/details/generalcatalogse00meesrich)

Up in the 100's pages, they have some info on power transfer direction with belt & pulley systems.


MR


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on December 17, 2009, 09:08:47 AM
 Marc,

 thanks, great reference material. ;D ;D  All building has stopped  ;) to read all this stuff.

 The header "machinery" contains a huge amount of technical information. If you click "read online", it is possible to read it as with an e-reader.

  Jacq

 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: RoughboyModelworks on December 17, 2009, 11:23:32 AM
Excellent links Marc... thanks. That Meese & Gottfried Company catalogue certainly appeared to be a deluxe and rather substantial publication what with the gold embossing on the cover. Window dressing aside though, there's a tremendous number of reference illustrations and drawings within... good stuff. The Lidgerwood book is excellent... particularly like the photo on page 37 "Cableway Skidder with A Frame Spar on Scow" - the sort of scene if you modelled it, nobody would believe it.  Interesting section on pull-boat logging. Had never seen a "Baptist Cone" before... it's hard to imagine them doing that with a straight face  ;) ;D ;D

Paul


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on December 17, 2009, 03:50:52 PM
 
 
 (http://images41.fotki.com/v195/photos/7/1437817/8243853/DSC_3945-vi.jpg)

 The first pulley foundation in place. 
 Footing is made from tiling cement mixed with water mixed with pva ( like ballast glue)

 (http://images51.fotki.com/v423/photos/7/1437817/8243853/DSC_3944-vi.jpg)

 (http://images54.fotki.com/v210/photos/7/1437817/8243853/DSC_3943-vi.jpg)

 The first expiremental engine foundations ( fast drying plaster) in test-set up.
 The casing for these footings will be made from finer grained wood and the footings made from cement.

 Jacq



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: lab-dad on December 18, 2009, 07:03:11 AM
Great texture!
Now, what are you going to use to color them?
I need to color mine but have yet to experiment.
Hoping you and Chuck will do all the hard work!  ;D ;D ;D
-Marty


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on December 25, 2009, 04:40:37 PM

  The casing parts for the dam are ready.
  The downside is made up of a framed casing so planking marks are visible. According to HAEBS HAER info the lakeside was hydraulically applied concrete and is smooth, which is visible in several old and newer photo's .



 (http://images17.fotki.com/v374/photos/7/1437817/8275523/DSC_3995-vi.jpg)

 overview of the moulding set up ready for pouring with below the individual parts of the mould casing

 (http://images52.fotki.com/v737/photos/7/1437817/8275523/DSC_3992-vi.jpg)

 the lake side. The wall is from smooth carton, sealed with paint from spraycan to prevent excesive mosture absorbtion.

 (http://images17.fotki.com/v374/photos/7/1437817/8275523/DSC_3993-vi.jpg)

 the downside casing showing the planking. Planking has been sanded to eliminate most grain and primed with paint to make removal from the casting easier.

  (http://images108.fotki.com/v1540/photos/7/1437817/8275523/DSC_3994-vi.jpg)

  backside showing reinforcement to maintain shape. Innitially planks were done with available !2"x 2" scale planks, but planks had too much spring back to be able to keep the shape correct. Newplanks were sawn on my new proxxon bandsaw having a thickness of 0,5mm. The planks  were added succesfully without distortion.

 I am dead scared pouring...................... :o  thinking of airbubbles, pieces breaking when dissassembling mould parts.
 Most probably I'll add another paint layer and some mold release.

 I have been expirementing with  modelers plaster, grouting cement and tiling cement.

 (http://images19.fotki.com/v275/photos/7/1437817/8275523/DSC_4000-vi.jpg)

 left plaster       right grouting cement.  Cement part broke when removing from mould (due to my impatience)  parts are now one day after pouring very strong and not brittle.

 (http://images52.fotki.com/v304/photos/7/1437817/8275523/DSC_3997-vi.jpg)

 surface detail  plaster.  model plaster with plain water

 (http://images17.fotki.com/v374/photos/7/1437817/8275523/DSC_3998-vi.jpg)

 surface detail cement.  cement with water/glue mix as used for ballasting.

 I still have to do tiling cement in the mould to see what the finish will be.

 Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on December 26, 2009, 04:33:33 AM
Sweet!....looking forward to the fainal cast dam. The trick will be not to have any cracks ;)  ;D. 

MR


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: lab-dad on December 26, 2009, 04:20:53 PM
Oh man, I dont envy you right now!
My thoughts & prayers are with you!
-Mj


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: RoughboyModelworks on December 26, 2009, 06:00:21 PM
Very impressive Jacq... I'd be scared stiff at this point, but I'm sure, given all your abilities, prep work and tests, you'll succeed with the pour. Looking forward to seeing how it comes out...

Paul


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on December 29, 2009, 04:32:05 AM

  The tests with the cement didn't give satisfactory results. It looks very good, but is too vulnarable to chipping.
  Modeling plaster worked out ok.
  Discussing it with a good friend who is an orthodontist, he suggested dental plaster and dropped in a box with some 4 lbs this morning.
  I just finished some small test pieces to find out the best mix plaster/distilled water.
  This stuff can be mixed by hand( stirring for 45 sec.) runs like thin youghurt, pours very easily and when dry will be rock hard.
  Demoulding is approx 30 min. but my fiend suggests to let it cure for a couple of days. So it will be one of the first surprises of 2010.

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on December 29, 2009, 07:36:50 AM
Oh man, I dont envy you right now!
My thoughts & prayers are with you!
-Mj

Jacq

I'm with MJ on this one all the way.  But knowing you I'm sure you will suceed in this part of the build.
Really looking forward to see this come about soon.

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on December 31, 2009, 04:17:57 AM

  I am not dissapointed with the results. There are a number of area's that need rework / repair but in general it came out satisfactory.
  A quick wash with dirty nafta showed good detailing. Further colouring will be done when all is completely dry. One of the biggest problems was the setting time of the dental plaster, as several pours were needed and the water/plaster mix was difficult to control. In total 3.5 lbs of plaster dissappeared in the gap.

 (http://images44.fotki.com/v1406/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4162-vi.jpg)

 (http://images51.fotki.com/v423/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4165-vi.jpg)

 (http://images18.fotki.com/v437/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4166-vi.jpg)

 Edge of top parapet needs rework and will have a chamfer of 6"x 45 on top and bottom.

 (http://images53.fotki.com/v420/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4167-vi.jpg)

 This is the only part where the casting turned out bad. it will be sanded and a new part will be cast in place.

 (http://images47.fotki.com/v1589/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4168-vi.jpg)

  (http://images18.fotki.com/v674/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4169-vi.jpg)

 details of visible wall on the down river side.

 As the moisture ist still too high, it might take some days to dry completely, it is not possible to start colouring.  I can't wait....

 Jacq




Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: RoughboyModelworks on December 31, 2009, 10:41:35 AM
Jacq:

Yes, I would say it is very satisfactory. It looks great and I expect will look even better once you finish your coloring and touch ups. Well done, we are all breathing a sigh of relief now...  ;)

Paul


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: mobilgas on December 31, 2009, 11:24:03 AM
Jacq,     :) looks good....waiting to see how you will do the weathering.      Craig


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: David King on December 31, 2009, 12:03:45 PM
Wow, that's impressive.  My attempts at plaster casting have usually failed and I've never attempting anything nearly as complex as this.  This whole thread is full of amazing modeling.

David, (the wide-eyed new guy)


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on December 31, 2009, 01:56:28 PM
Looks great so far!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on December 31, 2009, 02:19:30 PM
Not bad, Jacq. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on December 31, 2009, 04:37:41 PM
I think it came out pretty damn good.

Though not thrilled too with the brown colored wash...but will withhold being judgemental untill you have finished all your coloring. ;)

You are a brave soul....that small arced piece near the front edge just gives me the heebie-jeebies....looks like a chip area waiting to happen during transport or display.  :)


MR


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on January 01, 2010, 07:46:47 AM
 
Quote
Though not thrilled too with the brown colored wash
  Nor am I ....

  The wash I applied was just dirty nafta having the faintest color as in my impatience I wanted to see some details.. ::) ::) 
  Comparing some other castings and test pieces, it turned out that the brownish color is from the red cedar planks I used for the mould.
  This surprised me as I applied a ( not qualifying for quality) coat of enamel paint over the planks to make demoulding easy.
  I discovered it is possible to rectify it with extra color washes.

  (http://images47.fotki.com/v1588/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4175-vi.jpg)

  (http://images52.fotki.com/v734/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4177-vi.jpg)

  right test part  out of a red cedar lined mould. Notice colored residue/bleeding from the timber.
  left  test part colored with a wash of nafta and no1 humbrol primer.

 As soon as the plaster of the dam is fully dry, coloring can start seriously.

 Presently checking the granite underground around the dam and mill on photo's, to get some references in my search for some representable pieces of rock in a local garden centre. From these I make the basic latex moulds for the initial casting.  I'll try to keep a record of following steps for an SBS,  when there is interest.

 Jacq

 

 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on January 05, 2010, 01:27:09 PM

  The plaster of the dam, including repaired sections are now fully dry and landscape form of the mill module is all in place. Rocky outcrops and boulders will go in tonight. When these are done I'll start coloring the concrete and rest of landscape castings.
 Roadbed for the railway is ready for track laying. I have decided to put in ME On30 track instead of spiking my own. The track looks very good with scale size spikes at every tie and when painted and covered by the ballasting material, it will be hardly visible, looking at reference photo's.

 Nearly forgot to take photo's in this stage  :o :o 

As I am planning already the 2nd and 3rd modules, I am pondering about the logdump track along the waterside.
At Sugarpine the 2 tracks are both on a bankement cut out in the slope of the valley side.
at Hume lake the dumping track is on a tresle and the other track on the shore.

Both of them are attractive arrangements.
As the diorama is based on the Mumby photo, I plan to add a short line so a little more traffic can be shown during exhibitions.
The dumping track will have a gauntlet track as the loco's have to clear the brow at the logdump. The bunks of the logging cars ride over the brow to prevent tipping when the logs are unloaded.

I recieved from Marc already several photo's showing lopdumps. It makes it only more difficult.  Suggestions are welcome.

Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on January 05, 2010, 04:24:30 PM

  Scrutinizing unloading systems, there are a couple that appeal to me.

  1 like the Madera Sugarpine.                        structure with ginpole principle cable set up and steam winch on hill side
  2 like the Pino Grande                                 single gin pole with donkey with winch on the hill side
  3 like the Westside Lumber  and Brooking       the line on a rolley between 2 posts and the winch on an island/boat i the pond
  4 like Hume-Bennett                                   A frame with rigged as gin pole and donkey with winch on tresle.

  I have worked out a remote controlled operating gin pole type rigging system and am wondering what would the most interesting set up.

  2 and 4 will work without any problems as the base is rigid and cables in rest will clear the railprofile
  3 is depending on the stretch of the steel cable I have when hauling in the gin line.
  1 will be difficult due to the low top pullies over the brow.

  This is most probably closely linked to the decision to go for a tresle or not..... There is no clear line in this as there appear as many unloading systems as there are logponds...

 A second question is abourt switch stands. Were clearly visible switch stands ( with/without light) used often on short lines?

  Jacq

 
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on January 06, 2010, 04:06:18 PM

  quick update of dam.

  (http://images52.fotki.com/v8/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4178-vi.jpg)

  inside dam with test piece of landscape.  This is a quick rocky plaster casting made to suit with loose dirt and some green flocking material.
  Aim was to see how landscape and dam color fit together. Definite green material will go in place when landscape base is finished.

  (http://images112.fotki.com/v184/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4179-vi.jpg)
 
   small dam piece a module edge is a new cast part after removing the bad part.

    (http://images54.fotki.com/v202/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4180-vi.jpg)

    another view without the bridge and logjack test parts.

    More photo's will follow when camera batteries are charged  :-[ :-[   I hope with daylight to give a better view of the colors.

    The upstream side still needs to be finished.  Template to saw polycarb or acryl sheet and painted pruissina blue/ van dijck brown on the underside in place.  Coloring of dam showed blotchy spots due to uneven stirred casting mass. This amount together with the large cavity should have been prepared in one shot and stirred with a proffesional vacuum mixing machine.

   Jacq
   


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on January 07, 2010, 03:20:07 AM
The coloring "problem" doesn't bother me at all. Concrete doesn't always have uniform coloration. I very much like the texture and overall appearance and the ground cover and vegetation only enhance the overall effect. You are painfully aware of everything that doesn't look the way you hoped or expected. Since I have no such expectations, I'm simply blown away by the modeling. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on January 07, 2010, 06:17:28 AM
 
Quote
The coloring "problem" doesn't bother me at all
The nitpicking finicky rest will do that for you  :D :D You got yor troops wel organised  ;D ;D


 Here some more photo's with "daylight"  during the last weeks the camera has been used to shoot a very larg amount of photo's and nobody ( of course I blame the rest of the family  ;D ;D) thought about charging the empty battery pack.

  (http://images53.fotki.com/v443/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4182-vi.jpg)
 
  The trial of the landscape mock up. There is a slope of approx 3:1 from the high side to ground ( 40-45mm high)


  (http://images17.fotki.com/v521/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4185-vi.jpg)

  birds eye view.  the acryl template fits very wel around the dam, pity it is too small to cover the rest of the module's water area.
  Color is too blue. Transition shallow to deep water painted on foam and template laid over it.  I am in doubt to use mdf or acryl for the watersurface as it will be treated with acryl gloss extra heavy medium for little waves and to stick floating debris like bark etc .


  (http://images17.fotki.com/v521/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4187-vi.jpg)

  Here the "spots" in the plaster where the wash is behaving differently. Normally I have an even color, which can be varied with the consistency. Now I have to apply an opaque layer and lose a bit of the "porous" effect of the plaster.

 (http://images53.fotki.com/v443/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4188-vi.jpg)

 Detail of the new wall and what will be seen by the visitors. 

 Marc
Quote
.that small arced piece near the front edge just gives me the heebie-jeebies....looks like a chip area waiting to happen during transport or display.
  On my H0 layout I had a similar part (cut through bridge) and never encountered problems. When the dam part is fully cured, it will be rock hard and less prone to damages than the module corners. During transport it is protected by a corrugated plastic dust sheet.

 Jacq

 


 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Chuck Doan on January 07, 2010, 09:58:17 AM
I'm liking it Jacq! I really like the ground cover in front of the dam.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: RoughboyModelworks on January 07, 2010, 09:22:15 PM
It's looking very good Jacq, colouring is much improved now. I think it's safe to say that when finished this will be the best mill by a dam site or is it best dam by a mill site... ;)

Paul


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on January 08, 2010, 03:07:24 AM
Paul, go stand in the corner! Until February. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 08, 2010, 04:38:32 PM
Im sorry...but I will need to be a bit contrary here.....and maybe it's all due to the lighting...but I will put it out there anyway.

The concrete coloring seems to cool grey in tone. (the scenery does also a bit...but I'll get there later)....
Yes concrete color varies wildly....but we need to consider a couple of elements here.

The crushed stone and sand that was used in mix (which was likely the stone/material in the area)
The effect of the elements on the concrete.
The natural lighting on the materail (by this I mean the real world lat/long of the light and it's inherent efect on the visual)

...all this leads me to say that the concrete should be a bit wermer in color...more "beige-ish" (Chucks gas station project would be a good example, as it is in the same general region and environment.


Now...to digress a bit on this and over to the scenery........I think color and feel of groundwork and capturing the essence of actual/realworld local is really difficult when modeling something outside ones region; be it me modeling Europe, or someone in Europe modeling the US..or even me trying to do East Coast...or somone on the east coast modeling California.  Our eyes and senses are tuned to see, associate, interpret coloring in nature and materials as we are used to seeing them on a regular basis....and this relates unconciously into our creations...no matter how hard we try to copy from photos of the other local....we almost always will subconciously infuse what we know from our surroundings.  In this case, I would say that the ground coloring and greenery, is more European than California (Yosemite/Fresno/Merced area), which despite it's lush forest canopy in areas, has an underlying (or overlying) dusty and dry feel......that doesn't mean it's not a green and and lush forest...but everything is blanketed by this sort of parched and arid atmosphere, with a fine layer of dust, and "dry", over everything...and then the whole scene is washed-out/faded in the typical California sun.  It's hard to describe, one has to stand in it, and see/feel it....the same way one has to stand in a lush, moist, European forest to get the true essence/mood/feel for it. It's almost an intangible element.


Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on January 09, 2010, 03:20:44 AM
You would notice that. But I must admit, however grudgingly, you make a good point. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on January 09, 2010, 04:38:39 AM
  Marc,

 
Quote
Our eyes and senses are tuned to see, associate, interpret coloring in nature and materials as we are used to seeing them on a regular basis....and this relates unconciously into our creations...no matter how hard we try to copy from photos of the other local....we almost always will subconciously infuse what we know from our surroundings.

 And that is/was bothering me. You are dead right in that observation.  Also the season modelled is an impoortant factor.

 Looking at some "references" it stuck me that p.e. Red Stag shows imho more a subtropic forrest than a west coast forrest.
 
 (http://images19.fotki.com/v276/photos/7/1437817/7290191/humedam-vi.jpg)

 a relative "dusty" impression of the shore around the dam and "coniferous" colours.

 (http://images50.fotki.com/v397/photos/7/1437817/7290191/humedam2-vi.jpg)

 a bit of a difference from the same area. Different season ? Photoshop ? 
 I have a lot more photo's of the area from the web to get a feeling of the colors and light. Most photo's are holiday shots but in contrast with "official" photo's they do show the area more realistic I think.

 I prefer to go for the coloring and atmosphere of photo 1.  I think close to the water the colors will be more vivid, especially in early summer.
 I agree with your observation that the dam's color is too cold, the agregate's color is not showing. Here we have an additional difficulty in the different treatment of the damwall sides. The waterside was put on hydraulically ( smooth) the dry side in the casing with the mix showing clearly. Another point is the geographic position. the dry side never sees the sun. On the wet side of the dam the influence of air/water surface is also showing its effect.

The old bw photo's do help a lot with the consistency and airidity of the landscape with their dusty appearance, the colors will be the hardest to catch, especially with the workshop lights being the main illumination on the moment. this is always very difficult as the lights in exhibition halls do have a large influence on the colors, even with a enclosed viewing box.

You hit the nail and it took away an uneasy feeling I had, on which I wasn't able to put a finger.
Now the challenge how to solve this to my satisfaction. ;D ;D

Thanks
Jacq






Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: RoughboyModelworks on January 09, 2010, 11:27:48 AM
Excellent point Marc and your description of the landscape in these parts as dusty and washed-out is spot on. The landscape at a distance tends to have a rather monochromatic feel about it, especially in the summer and fall. Harsh colours and contrast just don't appear here.

Concerning the photos Jacq, the top is definitely closer to the real thing here. The lower photo is enhanced and totally unrealistic, typical calendar shot. One of my common beefs about most models is that the colouring is too harsh, too many conflicting tones and values. I've mentioned it before concerning your 1:87 display layout, you have excellent overall control of your colour palette. There is an understated consistency and subtlety to the colouring in that layout which adds greatly to the believability in your representation. Colour perception is entirely subjective, each of us perceives it differently which is what makes this process so difficult. Since it's not practical for you to stomp about the area you're modelling collecting colour samples, the best you can do is refer to photographic references. Following Marc's suggestion, if you go towards a warm dusty, washed-out feeling, the result should be a more accurate representation.

BTW, do you use daylight-balanced lighting in your workshop and for lighting on the finished layout?

Paul


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on January 09, 2010, 02:27:48 PM
As Marc and Paul point out, Photo 1 should be your guide. Notice the light tan color of the earth and the olive green tint to the foliage, very typical of California. The ground is always dry and dusty. Everything exists in drought conditions from April to December. Nearly all the grass is dry and light yellow.

Your photos didn't bother me because they are reasonably close to winter/early spring colors and I rarely am picky about scenic treatment as long as it seems somewhat plausible. But, if you are going for clinical accuracy, you should consult our Resident Geniuses; their observations are painfully accurate.

Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on January 10, 2010, 07:46:31 AM

 
Quote
But, if you are going for clinical accuracy, you should consult our Resident Geniuses; their observations are painfully accurate.

  Why otherwise go through all the troubles finding accurate information on structures and machinery ??
  Not really clinical as I used my modelers licence to alter some things :D , the colors are a very important in trying to create a diorama with the correct californian mountain atmosphere. 
This is one of the main challenges I face with my european background and lack of easy access to the original references. It feels like opening an empty "experience"book where all these new impressions find a place.  Mixing it with other experiences is hardly possible except for some basic techniques. Standing strongly in my shoes, on what I want and do admit what I don't know  :D, is very important, otherwise I would have lost track of my goals by all the advises.

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: chester on January 10, 2010, 09:10:56 AM
Jacq, the concrete work is excellent and I can't imagine how it might be improved.
   I too find it difficult to find true colors from photos. All to often, it's enhanced in the developing process and/or simply poorly developed. Also consider that the camera only can capture what the photographer himself and the quality of his camera is capable of. I've read often the complaints of military modelers trying to exact the colors of certain pieces using old photos that just can't be relied upon for true color evaluation.
   Because of the 'scale effect' rule, I strive to wash out and tone down colors anyway (as well as sheen) particularly since I do such a small scale. By the way, I rarely hear discussion of the scale effect here. Does it need to be given relevance in this situation?


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 10, 2010, 08:16:34 PM
Chester:
I am a huge believer in the concept of scale effect, and have brought it up frequently on other other RR forums where it received at best dead silence to nay-saying.  I think the slight bit of extra thought and effort it takes discourages most from applying it. Not all colors though require altering, IE there are so many shades of Vallejo paints out there you can almost get the shade/hue you need right from the get go (and often one needs to mix colors to get the correct/desired one anyhow). It's primarily the strong (deep chroma) or "out of the bottle prototype colors" that need this. On vehicles and locos much can also be done post painting, with panel fading, and fading with artists oils.

Jacq:
As mentioned by others, the upper photo is much closer to reality (I have never seen anyplace here look like the bottom image...well maybe once in Lake Tahoe or Tuolumne Meadows when I was really wasted  ;D ).
As Paul said, the way to think about most of California is dry and arrid....despite what green tones you may see. Think of it as place that even where green trees and bushes may exist,  it will go up like a Roman candle and become a fire-storm with just the slightest spark (which btw happens many times across the state each year). Other than a maybe 2-3 months in spring, the ground cover here consists of almost entirely of yellow grasses, with some interspersed muted green shrubs.


MR



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 10, 2010, 08:45:46 PM
I am sure you probably have already found these of the Huma Lake dam:

(http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/21037157.jpg)

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2142/1563906096_3f784d6cb7.jpg)

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2012/1563902830_19ad1ab690.jpg)

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2325/1563900092_dba2f00dfa.jpg)

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2221/1563015719_8490e9120b.jpg)

Some of these came from a set of FLICKR images re Hume Lake
http://www.flickr.com/photos/eddingrid/1563902830/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/eddingrid/1563902830/)


FWIW, here are some photos of the local dam (Devil's Gate Dam) here in Pasadena.

This is the dam from the inside:

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7z3fbbERTPE/SNHiU04Ce1I/AAAAAAAABUI/OkDUV5MPfmo/s400/Devil%27sGate.JPG)

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_XkVfoE6gWjc/R9wZ9OwiS8I/AAAAAAAABSg/KlIJzWi4OpE/s1600/Devil%2BGate%2BDam.jpg)


This is the downstream side (btw...note the forest fires in the background):

(http://www.rondubinphotography.com/wp-content/uploads//2009/08/altadena_152957_001.jpg)


This is the Sierra Madre dam (next town over from Pasadena):

(http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/18608428.jpg)

(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1034/1435664633_514835583a.jpg)


This is the Santa Anita dam (also in next town over)

(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/203/512394812_6082cfaa30.jpg)


MR



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: RoughboyModelworks on January 10, 2010, 10:44:50 PM
Good photos Marc. It is easy to see the warm tones in the concrete evident in all the photos. The last photo is very typical of much of the landscape. Judging by the green foliage and water level, it would appear to be a late spring or early summer shot. As Marc says Jacq, during the summer much of what is green in that shot will be muted green at the most, if not yellow and brown.

I was up in the foothills yesterday and though we've had a fair amount of moisture (fog mostly), the ground cover is still dusty and muted. We have a fair bit of sage and manzanita in ground cover here abouts and the green is never more than muted. The evergreens are green of course, but still retain a dusty feel, rather like the trees in the fifth photo below.

Dust is prevalent. By the late fall, prior to any rain, it coats everything, even the leaves on trees and shrubbery. It takes several rains to wash it off, but it returns very quickly at the end of the rainy season, usually March or early April. It's impossible to keep a clean car here... ;)

Paul


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on January 11, 2010, 01:30:03 AM
Looking at some "references" it stuck me that p.e. Red Stag shows imho more a subtropic forrest than a west coast forrest.

Depends on which part of the west coast. Some of the redwood forests of northern California, such as in the Eureka area, look very much like the Red Stag's scenery -- very lush, with lots of ferns and moss.



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on January 12, 2010, 04:09:46 PM

  Marc, thanks for the photo's, particullary the  last one with the Santa Anita dam gives a very good impression of the landscape aiming for.

  Chester, scale effect is what I have used already a long time, but hardly discuss it for the reasons Marc mentioned. It appears many find it too difficult to think about, let stand understand what it means.

 Some quick and dirty progress shots.

  (http://images53.fotki.com/v444/photos/7/1437817/7821034/DSC_4194-vi.jpg)
 
  Start of the topography. The pond surface is in place and treated to prevent warping during/after painting sesion.
  The part next to the dam will be redone as the gap with the dam on one side is too large.
 
  (http://images47.fotki.com/v1588/photos/7/1437817/7821034/DSC_4195-vi.jpg)

  I'll pick up monday the foam board ( with PU core) sheets of 1,00m x 1,40m. These boards will form the background and will be 1,20m x0,50m
  The underground of the landscape is made of PU foam and after shaping will be covered by paperstrips reinforced with full strength white glue, except in places where rocks etc will be visible.

 Rail for the through line is in place, fully faired with easements. The ME rail is very stiff so I had to use a fairing spline to get a nice even curve.
 Tomorrow the log dump track will be laid together with the gauntlet track. As soon as the electric wires are soldered, the track will be cleaned and prepared for painting.

 Jacq

 
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 12, 2010, 10:31:02 PM
I like the layout of the scene, and the view along the length of the module towards the mill has a really nice feel.

...but...(you knew there was one coming ;) ) I am not particularly fond of the cut or tunnel that will hide the continuing/loop track.  Can you devise soemthing better...maybe as suggeted with Pats project, a clump of trees, or some sort of biece of structure,  maybe a slab wood conveyor across the track and some piping, and maybe a small elevated wooden footbridge, a gantry crane...or a combination of these to hide clear view of the cut/opening/tunnel?


MR



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on January 13, 2010, 03:36:56 PM

  Marc,   
   
 
Quote
Can you devise soemthing better...
 

  I fully agree with you, it is (was  ;D)  the weakest spot in the design as from the far end of the layout it was possible to see the cut out and there was no /little room to camouflage it without distorting the scene.
 On paper it is a bit  hard to see how much space is left for realistic scenery in the small spaces on both sides of the track.

A scenic dilemma dissappeared as your remark triggered a train of thoughts and solutions.
 I will now definitely put in a wall on the far side in the mill as part of the solution. I removed and rerouted the track and switch on the mill module in such a way that is now not possible to see the passage through the cut out in the back wall when looking at track level from the other side of the pond.
 Photo's will be put up after the mess is cleared and scenery base in place, so a little patience.... ::) ::)   

The same as with the seat in your cubby I can't leave it and have to find an alternative.

Jacq






Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on January 17, 2010, 04:55:33 PM

  results of the last few days.

 
 
  (http://images54.fotki.com/v551/photos/7/1437817/7821034/DSC_4207-vi.jpg)

  The track has been redirected and the switch repositioned to create enough room to make it very ifficult to see the cut out to the back.


  (http://images17.fotki.com/v295/photos/7/1437817/7821034/DSC_4199-vi.jpg)

  This view is, when the layout is finished, not possible. Compare with the one that triggered Marc's remark.

 
 (http://images18.fotki.com/v437/photos/7/1437817/7821034/DSC_4200-vi.jpg)

 Rail ties not painted yet. Primer still visible.

 (http://images54.fotki.com/v551/photos/7/1437817/7821034/DSC_4207-vi.jpg)

 first set up of logdump.

 (http://images38.fotki.com/v231/photos/7/1437817/7821034/DSC_4201-vi.jpg)

 Basics done, dump still to be treated for wear and tear and set into the shore side prior to permanent position in module.
 This item will be built as a seperate unit complete with all scenic parts.


 (http://images47.fotki.com/v1590/photos/7/1437817/7821034/DSC_4202-vi.jpg)

 log dump freely based on Pino Grande with the shore side and unloading facility a la Madera Sugarpine.

(http://images19.fotki.com/v276/photos/7/1437817/7821034/DSC_4204-vi.jpg)

 log brow to be laid out to give support for the bunks when unloading.

(http://images52.fotki.com/v8/photos/7/1437817/7821034/DSC_4205-vi.jpg)

gauntlet switch built in situ. switch rod to be connected after ballasting.

(http://images41.fotki.com/v209/photos/7/1437817/7821034/DSC_4206-vi.jpg)

detail of gauntlet. waiting for special spikes. When these ar in, ties will receive final paint and ballast will go in.

All wiring for modules is finished so it was a very good modeling weekend. The first train ran very very good  ;D ;D ;D ;D

 One question for the Californians:  It is difficult to determine the color of the soil in cut outs. On many photo's the slopes appear to be normal earth interlaced with smaller rocks topped by the normal forrest ground cover. What is the prevailing color of these slopes??

Jacq




 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: NORCALLOGGER on January 17, 2010, 06:58:14 PM
Jacq,
Being a Californian and a logging modler I'll take a stab at helping.
Just about any normal dirt color is found here and sometimes changes dramatically
from one spot to another within just a couple of miles.  I assume your modeling the central/south Sierra range and the predominate rock is granit in the mountains but the foot hills will have very little indication of granit colors in most places. 

If your modeling a specific area you will probably have to find someone to walk the ground for you and send photos and dirt samples so you can get exact colors.

If your seeing cut banks with soil and small rock they are probably foot hill locations up to 2500 feet normally in the mountains the cuts will be pretty much solid rock with just a soil layer along the top edge.  But again this depends on exact locations.

I don't think cut banks would show much in the way of "normal forest groundcover" such as; top soil, dead leaves and pine needles, dead and rotting wood, fungus, and small understory brush.  Mostly they would remain bare erroded dirt/rock with a small amount of grass and brush in the crevices where sediment has washed in. 


Your modeling work is beautiful and I admire it very much.  I don't mean this to be critical, but.  Something about your log rollway bothers my eye.  What holds the top roll timbers in place?  They are not notched in or saddled to be self supporting from the natural downhill slide and that is a steep rollway looks at least 30 degrees.  The track side end of the timbers overhang the middle support so much I can just see the first log off the car teeter tottering them right up in the air.

Like I said, not a critic but it just doesn't look natural to me.  But then that's just me.

I am really enjoying following your build.
Rick Marty



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 17, 2010, 10:06:19 PM
Jacq,

Your log dump looks way too new, and too short.

Top image his is the BLCo. dump (California). You can aslo see the cut hill behind it (length along track). Note that the rollway is about 2-1/2 car lengths long, and as the cars in the image are Russel pattern #2 cars, they are typically 20'-6" long. Which makes the rollway around 50' in width.

Bottom image, note that they have added iron straps to the top of the rollway logs. Note also as noted by Rick, how the top end of the sloped logs is nothed into the brow-log.







Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 17, 2010, 10:12:01 PM
Top image, the rollway logs seem to have very light gauge RR track on the top. This rollway is probably at keast 30' or so long (along the track).

Bottom image is just  for example of small cut (California)



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 17, 2010, 10:18:37 PM
Both images in California. Note how worn both dumps are.

Note in the top image how the rollway logs are notched into the brow log.

The bottom imgage you can see the hillside cut behind the dump.



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 17, 2010, 10:25:52 PM
I am posting this image in contrast to the previous ones, and only because it is the closest one I had on hand that resembled your rollway timbers.

...BUT....here again, note how the the rollway logs are inotched into/over the brow log. Note also the length of this dump. (guessibng why, I would have to say because they probably had a traveling unloader (one that moved along the dump length on  a seperate parallel track).  Lastly....the reason this dump is so pristine and perfect, is because as written on back of the photo "first load of logs at the dump".....so this is a brand new construction.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 17, 2010, 10:36:33 PM
There is another alternative method of unloading the top dump if they didn't use a traveling unloader, and that is that they were just parbuckled off, like in this image of the Crossett Lumber Company (note in this image how the sloped rollway logs have horizontal blocking between them at the top and bottom).



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on January 18, 2010, 12:58:14 PM
 
  Rick,

  the log dump at the track side is not finished yet as I have to tune the height of the brow to the underside of the bunks.
  A notched connection with a horizontal beam sitting on a vertical support is not put in place yet.
  This is a first set up with some cut lumber to see or it will fit in place and not dominate too much.

  Marc,

  thanks for the information on the length of the dump. With this first test unit, a lá Pino Grande, a larger one will for sure dominate too much.
  I didn't spent time on giving it a used and beaten appearance as I am not  sure or this will be the final solution.
  I like the Brooking and Bradley log dumps as they fit the landscape snugly and do not dominate so much. The Bradley dump appears to have a more standard gin pole unloading set up, while the Brooking has a set up like the WSLC. with the gin line on a trolley and the winch on an island or opposite side of the pond.

 I'll do a set up to see which one looks best and give the most reliable operating performance.

 Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Marc988 on January 18, 2010, 03:48:47 PM
Tonight I saw a few pictures of a concrete log dump at one of the mills of the Sugar Pine Lumber company. You can find the pictures on the pages 28 & 31 in "The Whistles Blow No More" book.

Maybe this is an interesting suggestion for your log dump ?!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: NORCALLOGGER on January 18, 2010, 07:19:49 PM
Jacq,
Yes, of course it is not finished yet, I should have realized that and refrained from commenting.
Keep up the good work
Rick Marty


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Philip Smith on January 18, 2010, 10:11:50 PM
Jacq,
This is a great project. From what I've read, the entire thread several times, you have turned over each and every stone researching this project. Thanks for sharing the data! Your fellow loggers have done an excellent job with additional research and documentation.

thanks to all!

standing in the woodline,
Philip


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on January 19, 2010, 10:46:40 AM
   Rick,

 
Quote
Yes, of course it is not finished yet, I should have realized that and refrained from commenting.
  No offence, I am glad with the good observations and consequent remarks. Better one remark too much than none at all..

   Jacq
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Gordon Ferguson on January 22, 2010, 09:13:46 AM
Aplogosies Jacq

I know nothing about logging, but have noticed a lot of historic photos posted on this thread .......... came across this posted on the 7/8" site and thought it may be of interest

http://www.7-8ths.info/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=16680975.0;attach=28379;image

This one has gone into the file, for future builds ... make a great diorama

its an extract from Popular mechanics may1922

http://books.google.com/books?id=YdoDAAAAMBAJ&printsec=frontcover&lr=&rview=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Warning, hours will speed by if you get sucked into looking through the old issues on line , believe me!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on January 22, 2010, 10:41:28 AM

   Gordon,

  a bit scary, such a slope and rope as anti slip................. :o

 
Quote
Warning, hours will speed by if you get sucked into looking through the old issues on line , believe me!

  Tell me something, I am hooked since receiving the book lumber as PDF  one and a half year ago. Had to go on a strict timetable for modeling, reading, modeling, food, sleep and oh yeh I nearly forgot, family and socializing  :D :D ;)

  I have been too busy helping my son with his first graduate report.  We are still good friends after my remarks the contents.   ;D ;D ;D
 He did a special project on molecular vacume coating working out the proces requirements for the steering electronics and IT for a new machine.
In 3 weeks he will leave for SKKU university in  Suwon  in Korea. He has been selected for the course nanotechnology and biomechatronics. A bit different piece of cake than naval architecture and marine engineering..


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on January 31, 2010, 02:13:05 PM
 
  I had some time for modeling. Snow shoveling went quicker than I thought. 

  (http://images52.fotki.com/v726/photos/7/1437817/7821034/DSC_4247-vi.jpg)

  Scenery is progressing.  Fresh from the press as the glue hasn't dried yet so most earth coloursare too dark.
  When all is dry, the background can slide in place, presently still a white foamboard.............
   I am hesistating between painting or putting up a photo.
  There will be very little to no sky visible so grass, bushes and trees will be put in place first to see what will be the best solution.
  As trees will be young second growth and on the edge, they'll have branche right down.

  (http://images54.fotki.com/v553/photos/7/1437817/7821034/DSC_4248-vi.jpg)

  Area around the switch. A lot still to be added.  Don't look at the colors  :-[ :-[ setting of the camera.......

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on January 31, 2010, 03:05:20 PM
And now it all starts to come together .... -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on February 04, 2010, 04:31:28 AM
 
   With the scenery approaching the spot where the logdump will come, I'll have following questions.
   Marc showed in some earlier posts ( page 26) different unloading arrangements.

   the Santa Cruz is not feasible as it is not possible to run through with a train.
   the Brooking is very attractive especially with a winch island/pontoon, similar to the WSLC.
   the Hume Bennet does not fit in between the 2 tracks and loos too much to some available commercial unloaders.
   the Madera Sugarpine is attractive with the boom support and winch up the hillside
   The Alberni is attractive with it's simple ginpole, similar as the Pino Grande with the winchdonkey on the hillside.

    I am hesistating between the Madera Sugarpine - , the Brooking/WSLC - and the Alberni/Pinogrande systems.

   Madera gives a vision point for structure and winch position.
   Brooking gives a nice division with the winchhouse on the module front and the spidery wiring arrangement
   Alberni  is attractive due to it's simplicity.

   choices, choices, choices.... :-[ :-[  suggestions

   Jacq



   


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on February 04, 2010, 04:57:05 AM
Depending on how much pond space you have (IE enough to not have logs crash onto the winch barge) I like that idea, because as you say it brings the scene to the foreground...and it creates visual layering to the module/scene.

Drop me a line befor you get too far on buildingany poles and rigging.....I have a good number assorted of CHB logging sheaves and would be willing to send you some if they fit the needed size and appearance.

Just as a note on the Brookings...it was not on a barge/raft there, but rather on the other side of the pond. I have sent you an email with three images that show the pond from another view than the previous ones posted here.

Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on February 04, 2010, 09:25:42 AM
 
  The room available from the edge of the module to the slope is 10".  I will make a test set with some paper models to see how the different parts fit in together in this space. When the barge has a depth of 2" , the available space for the logs will be approx 8"  A dumping footprint for a scale 5'0" is 3"   I have my doubts as I do not want to squeeze it too much.  I'll put up photo's when I have it all set up.
 
  Finally the snow has dissappeared, so I can get some "pine forrest" earth on my next walk in the woods. This has the same white-beige /grey color as seen in photo's of cuts in the photo's from Hume lake.

 Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on February 05, 2010, 09:59:01 AM
 
  Here a temporary set up to see how the arrangement with the winch barge looks.
   
  (http://images112.fotki.com/v173/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4257-vi.jpg)

  (http://images21.fotki.com/v208/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4259-vi.jpg)

  The relation between the involved parts does not look too compromising.   

  (http://images112.fotki.com/v189/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4258-vi.jpg)

  This set up offers some scenery possiblities behind the logdump together with the next 2 modules with the "town" buildings.
 

  (http://images49.fotki.com/v1460/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4260-vi.jpg)

  Overal set up. the track behind the mill is repositioned and the "whole in the wall" to the back modules will be hidden by trees and bushes.


  (http://images49.fotki.com/v1460/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4255-vi.jpg)

  the scenery has a base of PU foam carved to shape. Behind the mill the form is covered by basic rock castings, which are handcarved to match the complete rockface. The slope has a PU base, covered with tissues soaked in dilluted white glue and covered with a several layers of different garden and forrest ground. This material is first oven dried and sieved. Water level on the mill module is in place so slope transition between modules can be matched. The earth's color appears dark due to the fact that the glue is not dry yet. I hope it will lighten enough, otherwise I have to use the airbrush in some area's. 

There appears to be enough room to add some details, without making it overloaded.

 Jacq


 



 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on February 05, 2010, 01:55:21 PM
Even if you decide to make some changes, the overall impression is very good. Is length of the the log dump slightly compressed? If so, extending it away from the mill probably wouldn't adversely affect the scenery. But I have not really studied Marc's photos or others; I just like what you are doing. (The light blue extruded foam hillside behind the dump looks especially impressive to my untrained eye!) -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on February 06, 2010, 09:14:05 AM
  Here the test with the Madera Sugarpine system.

  (http://images47.fotki.com/v1590/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4296-vi.jpg)


  (http://images53.fotki.com/v443/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4294-vi.jpg)


  (http://images17.fotki.com/v522/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4295-vi.jpg)

  This is attractive as it is a divider for the train traffic compared with the previous post. It is also more dominating the scene and gives less possiblities in the background.

  Comparing the two, I prefer the Brookings system.

  
 
  Russ, as you are so fond of the "blue" green background slope, maybe I should leave it as " modern modelrailroad practice, together with Marc's advise for popsickle trees   ;D ;D ;D ;D   Maybe when doing that and sending photo's to Kalmbach/MR, I am elegible for a MRR certificate  ::)


  Jacq
   


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on February 06, 2010, 02:46:09 PM
Hi Jacq,
I've been enjoying your progress into the scenery sid of this layout, just haven't posted much lately.  I like the visual presence of the Madera set up, and I could see the general viewing public at exhibition liking the appeal of trains squeezing under the timber gantry.  As you said, it creates a good scenic divider as well, but does limit backscene possibilities somewhat.  What is the plan for the backdrop...painting in a continued scene, plain blue sky etc?  Leaving just an inch or so for the transition to the backdrop may be the issue more than anything using the Madera system.

Thanks for the updates,
Dan


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on February 06, 2010, 04:33:56 PM
  Hi Dan,

 the backdrop will have hardly any sky.
 Eyelevel is just under the lower edge of the valance. This means looking direct ahead, you look into the trees on the slope of the mountain/hill.   
 I have not made up my mind yet or I will use a photo for the backdrop or paint the the forrest. There will be plenty of 3d trees ( like on my H0 layout ) in front of it to give the impression you look directly into the ( second growth) forrest.

 I agree, the Madura set up is attractive, but I want to make a "soft" transition from the mill to the town structures. I am not a fan of  a selection of boxed highlights.  The total diorama has to draw the observer into the details, without forcing the attention with scenic dividers.   When it is done correctly the total layout from any viewing point to another will look natural and especially logical. 
This means that not always the most attractive, but the best fitting/matching solution will be used.

Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on February 07, 2010, 02:51:52 AM
Unless you are an artist like Rembrandt, my inclination would be to find appropriate photos for the backdrop. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on February 07, 2010, 04:08:00 AM
Or you can take the photos and run them through Photoshop to do some manipulation to soften them and give them a fit of an artistic touch as well as make them seem slightly faded/washed out (IE Scale Effect)...

Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Gordon Ferguson on February 09, 2010, 09:00:43 AM
Jacq,

fell over this completely by accident, thought it might be of interest   ...... its interesting from the start but the logging info comes about 1/3 of the way in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1ZlnE200ms


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: NORCALLOGGER on February 09, 2010, 06:07:13 PM
Gordon,
That is a terrific clip.  One of the best I have seen on Big Wheels.
Thanks for posting the link.
Rick


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on March 03, 2010, 10:52:20 AM

  I am looking for details of the sawdust removal system, especially how the collector looked like near the lower bandsaw wheel.

  The ground floor is now ready for all the stuff that is normally found there. It was a p.i.t.a. to get the top of the pillars and beams exactly
  flat and level to enable a good fit of the sawfloor structure. Several things had/have to be rearranged due to the redirection of the track to prevent seeing the "hole in the background"  I will show photo's when all is in the right shape again.... :D :D

  I have split the bandsaws in a upper and lower part to be able to handle the sawmill upper part and to built the belt drives with tensioners. Piping for all the steam driven machines are in place, the "hot" pipes are all lagged. The line to the pond winch and bucking saw boat will go in when the jack slip is in place. The "exhausts" will come up on appropriate places. Another 15 belt drives to go...... :P :P

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on March 03, 2010, 08:58:05 PM
Unfortunately I have no idea how thatw as set up....but I have been meaning to send you these two ads from the 1906 American Lumberman, that relates to sawdust and waste disposal equipment pieces for a mill.

MR


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on March 03, 2010, 08:58:44 PM
Ad #2


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on March 04, 2010, 10:33:48 AM

   Marc,

  thanks, that dutch oven cross section is of great help.   I am building a hog in paper presently  :D ;D ;D 

   Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on March 05, 2010, 05:28:31 AM
    Marc,

    are there more details of the M&M hog ? 
    I found in the book "Lumber" some information regarding sizes and think that a machine with a hourly ratin of 16 cords will do the job.
    This means a grinding disk of 48" x 30". Based on this info I can make a small construction drawing, but if there is somewhere out there more information, it is more than welcome.
    I found out Mitts & Merrill are still in bussiness in woodworking machines and asked or they still have documentation on the hog.

    With all the discussions about paper modeling, I will make this one from paper.

     Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on March 05, 2010, 11:19:01 AM
All this talk of M&M hogs has me picturing someone getting greedy in the candy aisle!



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on March 05, 2010, 12:11:23 PM

   Ray,

   are these the ones you have in mind ??

   (http://images12.fotki.com/v236/photos/7/1437817/7407986/MM-vi.jpg)

   Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on March 05, 2010, 02:15:33 PM
Jacq, go stand in the corner. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Frederic Testard on March 05, 2010, 03:07:11 PM
I have the feeling you should enlarge the corner, Russ... I must say I feel quite puzzled. All these great modellers losing their mind together, all of a sudden. It's odd, and if I dare say : inadequate.
OK, OK, I know where the corner is. This is the crowdy place...


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: RoughboyModelworks on March 05, 2010, 08:08:01 PM
Cool... Cheech & Chong M&Ms.  I wonder which one is Dave  ???

Paul (Dave's not here man…)


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Philip Smith on March 05, 2010, 10:39:00 PM
some new ground cover hammburger man :o


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on March 06, 2010, 02:47:42 AM
  Russ,

  in the corner is no room for modeling........... :'( :'(


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on March 06, 2010, 02:56:20 AM
I am going to hire Nick to build a big tower with lots of corners. In each corner will be a modeling bench and tools. At least when you stand in the corner you will still be able to do some modeling. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: james_coldicott on March 06, 2010, 03:01:06 PM
Hi Jacq,

just catching up here and read your post regarding sawdust removal. May not be what you are looking for as these are taken at Sturgeons mill which is a double circular saw but may be of some help. The sawdust channels are a vee made up from planks in which runs a powered chain with 'paddles' attached which push the sawdust along the channels. Hopefully the photo's I managed to get are self explanatory. If you need any more help let me know. I also have lots of pictures of the engine on the ground floor and belt system up to the machinery.

regards

James


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: james_coldicott on March 06, 2010, 03:03:29 PM
...another

J


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: james_coldicott on March 06, 2010, 03:04:22 PM
Entering the slash burner...


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: james_coldicott on March 06, 2010, 03:07:55 PM
...and inside the slash burner- apologies for the photo quality- it's dark in there! Note that some of the channels are missing but the first picture shows how it is fixed to the underside of the floor. Obviously would be a different setup to collect sawdust from the lower wheel of a bandsaw but hopefully these will give you some idea.

Keep up the good work, a great project...

James


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: RoughboyModelworks on March 06, 2010, 07:35:30 PM
I am going to hire Nick to build a big tower with lots of corners. In each corner will be a modeling bench and tools. At least when you stand in the corner you will still be able to do some modeling. -- Russ
Oh sure, send us to detention and expect us to work as well...

Paul


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on March 07, 2010, 10:00:20 AM

   James,  thanks, some very nice close up details of the sawdust chain.

  found this : http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/video/2900/2907.html (http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/video/2900/2907.html)

  Marty, there is also a nice fast running corliss with a cotton press after approx 10 - 12minutes.

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: lab-dad on March 07, 2010, 07:49:00 PM
Love that show!
Thanks for the heads up!
-Marty


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on March 09, 2010, 02:07:45 AM
Jacq,

Sorry to be late here...unfortunately I have no other info on the equipment, They were just ads in the mag.

MR


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on March 14, 2010, 03:33:32 PM
   
  Quick and dirty update:

  (http://images33.fotki.com/v1116/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4300-vi.jpg)

  mill building finalised, groundfloor columns and bracing in position. Half the driving belts and pulleys in place.
  Decided to finish the mill, boiler- and engine house before finalising the landscape.
  Bridge across dam arch and log slip in place.

  (http://images45.fotki.com/v1359/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4306-vi.jpg)

  Base for water painted on the mill module. I normally use prussian blue, stippled on with a coarse a stiff brush. the water will be finished with fading further colors like ummber, green and ligher variant blue finished with a layer of acryl gloss (heavy) medium

  (http://images33.fotki.com/v1116/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4303-vi.jpg)

  (http://images9.fotki.com/v448/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4301-vi.jpg)

  (http://images43.fotki.com/v1322/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4305-vi.jpg)

  The log carriage is just a trial to test the proportions. 

 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on March 14, 2010, 06:23:20 PM
Beautiful! I noticed there are rails going across the bridge over the dam -- what rides on those rails?


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on March 15, 2010, 06:17:44 PM
I was in Houston over the weekend and had time to visit some modeling friends there. They have been following progress on your diorama and are most impressed. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on March 15, 2010, 06:29:05 PM
Jacq

Nice progress!!  As always beautiful work!  Really impressed with this build.

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on March 15, 2010, 10:24:37 PM
SWEET!.....Nice wood coloring on the ramp.

.....but please tell me you are going to change out that sickly non-realistic looking tree.


Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on March 15, 2010, 11:07:08 PM
In addition to the superb modeling, the sheer size of that mill makes it quite an imposing structure. What are the dimensions of the mill?



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on March 16, 2010, 03:16:05 AM

     
Quote
.....but please tell me you are going to change out that sickly non-realistic looking tree.

     It was put up to see or you are still sharp............... ;D ;D ;D ;D   
     Last week it turned out I am struck with hayfever and especially allergic for TREES.  :o :o :o  Which ones they couldn't tell but to play safe, the one on the layout will go for sure.

     
     Ray,

     the building is 860mm ( 34" ) x 305 ( 12") x 410 ( 16")   The full size footprint is 136'0" x 48'0" 

   
     Now that spring is slowly showing, I will be able to take the module outside for photography.
     Till now most photo's were shot inside without a tripod as I can't turn my a.. in the workshop.
     Presently all the modules of the H0 layout with all its gear is taking up most room.
     Some finer scale work I have taken into the kitchen to the chagrin of my wife. To keep the good peace, I'll move the H0 layout to a short term storage facility after the show in Leverkusen. This makes room in the workshop so I can set up all the 4 modules of the mill diorama and have plenty of working space.

    Jacq 

   

     


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on March 22, 2010, 07:37:43 AM
  Engine house: 
 
  here some shots of the engines under construction and a mock up of the cut through engine house.

  (http://images12.fotki.com/v252/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4320-vi.jpg)

  All are twin cilinder engines:  2x 220hp ( western scale models) and 1x 100hp ( SierraWest CHB)  for the beltdrives
  I am looking for a way to tie the generator into the belt system of the 100hp engine or use a vertical engine.

  Piping layout and raised platforms ( expanded metal) are under construction.

  Vertical belt tensioners will be on the outside

  (http://images56.fotki.com/v1598/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4321-vi.jpg)

  Building set up is based on the boiler- and engine houses of the Hume-Bennett mill. 

  (http://images20.fotki.com/v533/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4322-vi.jpg)

  due to the module edge and the orientation of the buildings, the cut away line of the roof looks odd.
 

  (http://images17.fotki.com/v274/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4323-vi.jpg)

  Maybe I have to change the roof orientation of the engine house 90 degrees and make the roofs of the boilerhouse and engine house parallel.
  comments are welcome.


  A question on storage items:

 What sort of barrels /drums etc were used around 1910.
  55 gallon drums came in use just prior to / during WW II  so they cannot be used. 
  I am looking for items in which the large amounts of grease and lube oil needed for all gears, etc were transported and stored prior to WW I.

  Jacq
 
 
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: lab-dad on March 22, 2010, 09:34:57 AM
Quote
Maybe I have to change the roof orientation of the engine house 90 degrees and make the roofs of the boilerhouse and engine house parallel.

I think it would look a lot better than what is mocked up. Also add some continuity to the two structures.

-Marty


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Hauk on March 22, 2010, 01:41:09 PM
 
 A question on storage items:

 What sort of barrels /drums etc were used around 1910.
  55 gallon drums came in use just prior to / during WW II  so they cannot be used. 
  I am looking for items in which the large amounts of grease and lube oil needed for all gears, etc were transported and stored prior to WW I.

  Jacq
 

Even if the images are dated 1922, they at least shows a type of steel oil drum in use quite a few years earlier than WWII.

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/oljefat.jpg)

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/oljefat2.jpg)

The drums  does´nt look spanking new, and my guess is that this type of drum could have been invented before WWI.

Before the steel drums were invented, wooden barrels was used for oil products. Industrial production of wooden barrels for oil products started in the 1870´s. In Norway these barrels was required by law to have the tops and bottoms painted red as a warning of the  inflamable content.

In the US,  by 1866 the oil barrel was standardized at 42 US gallons, so wooden barrels of this size might be your safest bet.

Regards, Håvard H


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on March 22, 2010, 01:55:51 PM
Regarding roof lines, the only disturbing thing is the way the front part of the mock-up roof of the engine house looks going at the angle from right to left. A brainlessly easy fix would be to leave off the front part of the roof. (If you still think it's necessary, then model only a small portion from the right-hand wall to the ridge, perhaps only an inch or two wide.) -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on March 22, 2010, 04:29:17 PM
Jacq,

I think the problem is the current separation between the engine and boiler house....looks very awkward....the Hume-Bennet boiler and engine house were connected...a single structure.....this would make the roof lines as you have them work fine...and be prototypical.  I think putting both roofs the same as the main mill or boilerhouse will look very awkward and boring.


Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Philip Smith on March 22, 2010, 07:19:27 PM
Were you planning a cut-a-way showing the machinery/rafters/etc? I think all the details would look great exposed.

Philip     


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on March 23, 2010, 02:41:28 AM

  Philip,

 
Quote
Were you planning a cut-a-way showing the machinery/rafters/etc?

  Yes, from the start onward I intended to show an open engine house and boiler house with cut out of a dutch brick fire tube boiler.
  the way the roof line of the engine house came out, doesn't look right.
 
  An alternative is show the roof covered on the far side of the apaex and only the joists / rafters on the near side. This gives parallel lines
  and a nice accent on the near side.

  Jacq
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Philip Smith on March 23, 2010, 07:55:28 AM
Jacq,

I was doing a search and came up with this image from this site.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/bloggers/2394509/posts

There was a hunt and this was the findings.

I heard back from the Director of Archives and Collections at the Petroleumn Museum today. She said that the drum appears to be from the time period 1870 - 1911. Standard Oil was broken up in 1911 into different companies. She says that the "Standard Oil Co." and serial number on the top support dating the drum to that period.

She said that her museum has a similar drum from Magnolia Company (later Socony-Mobil). Their drum came from an old gas station and was used to pump oil and gasoline. She thinks my drum had a similar purpose.

This might be correct for rolling around your mill/etc. I thought is was neat.   Philip









Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on March 23, 2010, 12:21:39 PM
Nice find, Philip!



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Carlo on March 23, 2010, 12:31:01 PM
Jacq - This may be way off topic, and I may need to go stand in Russ' corner but...

I've been looking for the source of your Tom Waits quote. He's one of my favorites, but I can't remember hearing these words before:

"What's he building in there? What the hell is he building in there?
He has subscriptions to those magazines...
He never waves when he goes by
He's hiding something from the rest of us..." -Tom Waits

Carlo


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on March 23, 2010, 01:02:33 PM
Jacq,

I have an old catalog from a mfr that made drums, barrels, containers and all sorts of stuff that went along with them....there must at least several dozen styles and sizes if not more.....I will scan some of the most relevant pages......I can either send them to you direct, or if there is interest from others in seeing them, I can post them in this thread.


Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Philip Smith on March 23, 2010, 01:10:18 PM
Nice find, Philip!



Ray, That drum is not my property. I found it browsing. I was rushing when I found it......... :-[

Marc, I'd be interested in seeing it pinned  in Jacq's thread! 

Philip


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on March 23, 2010, 05:01:24 PM
Okay...here are some Barrels.  Catalog is likely from around 1925.....sorry no 1910. I don't know how widely all these shapes were used.....some may be a specific design/variation to this mfr....but others were definitely a common design that I have seen from other mfrs as well. As you can see from the scans most of these were task/use/content designed.  Barrels or drums used as shipping containers had to meet specifications from Rules of Consolidated Freight Classification, which governed such things as metal gauge (thickness), material, capacity, embossing, name , labeling, caps, covers, plugs, tops, etc., in relation to content and size of barrel/drum.

From the appearance of the catalog cuts, frontis info, and other items in it, the company was likely around from 1910-20 as well......but I have no idea how much their product line changed/expanded from then to when this issue/version of their catalog was published.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on March 23, 2010, 05:02:25 PM
p57


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on March 23, 2010, 05:03:01 PM
p58


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Tom Neeson on March 23, 2010, 05:03:38 PM
Jacq - This may be way off topic, and I may need to go stand in Russ' corner but...

I've been looking for the source of your Tom Waits quote. He's one of my favorites, but I can't remember hearing these words before:

"What's he building in there? What the hell is he building in there?
He has subscriptions to those magazines...
He never waves when he goes by
He's hiding something from the rest of us..." -Tom Waits

Carlo


It's from "Mule Variations", sort of a spoken word piece, very cool and creepy.

(Hey, I knew something!)

Tom


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on March 23, 2010, 05:03:53 PM
p59


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on March 23, 2010, 05:04:44 PM
p60


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on March 23, 2010, 05:05:20 PM
p61


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on March 23, 2010, 05:05:57 PM
p62


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on March 23, 2010, 05:06:37 PM
p63


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on March 23, 2010, 05:07:14 PM
p64


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on March 23, 2010, 05:07:53 PM
p73


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Gordon Ferguson on March 24, 2010, 02:51:22 AM
As an ex oil man thanks Marc for the pictures of these early barrels .... very interesting and great modelling potential with the dimensions.

One point to note , for anyone outside the US remember these are US gallons, multiply by 0.83 to convert to UK Imperial gallons  and I think multiply by 3.79 to convert to litres


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on March 24, 2010, 03:15:24 AM

   Marc,

    great, thanks a lot.  You do have a large collection of industrial memorabilia ...............

    Now finding a model supplier of these drums / barrels. ??? ??? 

    Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Krusty on March 24, 2010, 04:49:00 AM
Quote
Now finding a model supplier of these drums / barrels.

Bronco do a beautiful kit for the corrugated 55 gallon barrel on p.60. They call it a Chinese PLA 200L oil drum, but we know better. Of course it's 1:35 scale......

Thanks for the scans Marc. Excellent stuff.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: lab-dad on March 24, 2010, 06:32:50 AM
Jacq,
Given enough dimensions I could turn a master for you and then we could have it cast in resin?


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on March 24, 2010, 09:21:33 AM

  Marty,

  very good idea.
 Let me know the mould and casting costs. We can share and you can flog them for a good price to the rest.  ;D ;D
 These will be unique as most presently commercially available are modern type ones.
  Do you think we should pay Marc a fee for his research ??

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: lab-dad on March 24, 2010, 09:42:16 AM
with the money we will make on these we can buy Marc all the (good) Tequila he needs!
let me know which one you want to do and I will see about a master.....
-Marty


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: mabloodhound on March 24, 2010, 10:27:18 AM
I hope you're talking 1:48 scale.  I'd have an interest then as my On30 RR is 1920 era.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on March 24, 2010, 11:33:03 AM

  Dave,

  of course it's 1:48  :o  Want to put down a deposit ?  ;D ;D ;D ;D    contact Marty for the US bank details,  for Europe contact me.
 

   Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on March 24, 2010, 04:42:04 PM
Note in this image from the Benson Timber Co. (taken sometime btwn.1890 and 1910), there appear to be three different types of barrels....there are the "hoop" type, then some that look more like today's common barrels (such as are available from Grant line in 1/48), and the one laying on it's side on the ground. ......which might be just another 'hoop' one looking different because of camera distortion...or it might be one of the type that slightly curves/slopes inward at the ends.


Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on March 24, 2010, 04:47:50 PM
Note the cut (shortened) barrel to the right of this image of the engine house of the Madera Sugar Pine LCo.




Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on March 24, 2010, 04:50:12 PM
Barrels in left foreground of this image from Mich-Cal LCo.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on March 24, 2010, 04:58:46 PM
Standard Lumber Co. (c.1910-1915).....'hoop' style barrels to right of loco.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Chuck Doan on March 24, 2010, 05:03:30 PM
Tamiya makes some drums that might be useable. I bought some a while back, but I don't recall what they looked like.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on March 24, 2010, 05:06:22 PM
Now that we can see and justify that the hoop type barrels were quite common on logging operations during the time period, we can go to 'Track-48'   http://www.track48.com/shop/ (http://www.track48.com/shop/) .....type in "oil", in the search box.....


.......and get exactly what we need (of course we can toss the jerry-cans)...for $10-

(http://www.track48.com/shop/images/P/32510.jpg)

http://www.track48.com/shop/product.php?productid=955&cat=0&page=1 (http://www.track48.com/shop/product.php?productid=955&cat=0&page=1)


....and yes, it is 1/48 scale (everything that Track-48 sells is 1/48...hence the name)  I like dealing with them. Nice guy and great service.



Hope I didn't sink your business venture.


MR


EDIT:  I think the one shown/listed in this post is the Tamiya set. (Tamiya Item #32510).


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on March 24, 2010, 05:09:51 PM
Track 48 also carries some from Legend productions (15 for $23.50)...though looking at the image the quality seems somewhat second rate to me.

http://www.track48.com/shop/product.php?productid=813&cat=0&page=1 (http://www.track48.com/shop/product.php?productid=813&cat=0&page=1)

(http://www.track48.com/shop/images/P/leglf4040.jpg)


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Chuck Doan on March 24, 2010, 05:12:35 PM
Ok, that's what they look like!

This is valuable information. Thanks!!!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on March 24, 2010, 05:21:51 PM
Jacq,

In Europe you can get them through Jadar hobby in Poland (they even offer a 22% discount to non-EU customers)....EU price is 8,20 Euros.

http://www.jadarhobby.pl/tamiya-32510-jerry-p-4241.html?language=en&currency=USD (http://www.jadarhobby.pl/tamiya-32510-jerry-p-4241.html?language=en&currency=USD)


I like dealing with these guys as well....for me here in the US they have beat other online shops (even with shipping factored in) almost every time.  Service is great, takes maybe a week or so longer to get because of distance but always been a satisfied customer....plus their selection is enormous.


Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on March 24, 2010, 05:36:39 PM
Last but not least...there is a guy selling some Czech brand ones on ebay......

http://cgi.ebay.com/Barrels-Resin-1-48-Minimali_W0QQitemZ370335629534QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5639b940de (http://cgi.ebay.com/Barrels-Resin-1-48-Minimali_W0QQitemZ370335629534QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5639b940de)



....that about does it for me.....what more do you guys want....stop pestering me and go get yourself some oil drums! ;) ;D



Marc




Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on March 24, 2010, 05:40:25 PM

   
Quote
Hope I didn't sink your business venture.

    nope,  most cost would be taken by the consultant supplying all the info  ;) ;D ;D ;D

   thanks for the Jadar link.

   Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on March 24, 2010, 06:08:37 PM

   
Quote
Hope I didn't sink your business venture.

    nope,  most cost would be taken by the consultant supplying all the info  ;) ;D ;D ;D

   Jacq

...my part is done....my billing cycle is 30 days....will look for the check in the mail. ::) ;) ;D ;D ;D

Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on March 24, 2010, 08:27:13 PM
Here's an old galvanized steel barrel I saw in Silver Peak, NV:

(http://www.raydunakin.com/Site/Silver_Peak_NV_files/Media/w9477_10SilverPk/w9477_10SilverPk.jpg)




Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Chuck Doan on March 25, 2010, 08:14:42 AM
Great little stand.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on April 04, 2010, 07:37:36 AM

I added the third module..... :P.

(http://images41.fotki.com/v1309/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4325-vi.jpg)

The logpond can be seen in full length ( 8'0") 
Track is laid, including the gauntlet and all wired.   Trains had their first run yesterday.... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D.  No derailment and the bunks of the logging cars ride nicely over the brow when on the gauntlet track. I will use a long rooster to enable the operater to throw the gauntelet switches between loco and first waggon.

(http://images50.fotki.com/v1515/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4329-vi.jpg)

(http://images50.fotki.com/v405/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4326-vi.jpg)

(http://images20.fotki.com/v533/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4328-vi.jpg)

Footprints of all intended buildings on these modules have been added to see or all comes together as intended.
The hole, below the logbrow, is part of the working unloader. A hatch will close this opening ( with non visible edges) used to drop the
unloaded logs into a tray underneath the layout.

 (http://images39.fotki.com/v1292/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4332-vi.jpg)

 I replaced the tree that was annoying Marc with one without foliage  ;) ;D ;D
 The water will gets the final colouring when at the back all is done, prior to adding all the logs, bucking saw and sinker catamaran, to prevent damages.

 Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: LeOn3 on April 04, 2010, 12:59:03 PM
Jacq,

It's looking great sofar. Can't wait to see it "life" someday.
One question though. How did you make the concrete at the pond?

Leon


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on April 04, 2010, 01:27:32 PM
You have been busy. The modeling so far is first rate. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Frederic Testard on April 04, 2010, 04:00:59 PM
I really like the color and texture of this scenery, Jacq. It looks very natural and realistic.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on April 04, 2010, 07:45:23 PM
Looks great. Nice prototypical proportions and line of sight. Something rarely seen in any logging layouts.

Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on April 13, 2010, 07:29:12 AM

  The start of the engine house:

  (http://images35.fotki.com/v1169/photos/1/1437817/7131837/DSC_4335-vi.jpg)

  (http://images110.fotki.com/v565/photos/1/1437817/7131837/DSC_4337-vi.jpg)

  (http://images56.fotki.com/v1597/photos/1/1437817/7131837/DSC_4338-vi.jpg)

  (http://images34.fotki.com/v1147/photos/1/1437817/7131837/DSC_4339-vi.jpg)

  Basics of main steam engines in place. Weathering, etc has been started in those places that will not be accessible when the building's walls will be up.  Models are Western Scale.  Concrete footings are made from plaster, made in a simple casting box made from carton and wood strips. Presently fabricating some platforms and stairs around the engines from 1,5mm L and some nicely made gratings from PSC.

 Supporting frame for layout during exhibitions has been finished. 
 The large H0 layout has been sold and will move to the new owner's premises after the show in Leverkusen 8-9 May.
 It will be possible than to set up the complete Mill layout, so the supporting frame is needed.
 This will enable me to see or all idea's come together as intended or that corrections are needed.

 Too many things ongoing at the same time.................Scenery, details, rolling stock, structures, landscaping etc, etc, 

 It's good fun,

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Chuck Doan on April 13, 2010, 08:04:15 AM
Looks good Jacq. I like those footings.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: lab-dad on April 13, 2010, 09:19:42 AM
Would be nice to see one large panoramic shot of the whole thing once there is room for it.
May be one of those free hosting sites would be a good place to put it up?
The engines look great! I have often thought of building one in large scale just 'cause I like engines.
-Marty


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on April 13, 2010, 12:47:56 PM
Virtually flawless. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ken Hamilton on April 13, 2010, 01:40:28 PM
Great progress - beautiful job.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on April 13, 2010, 08:35:25 PM
Wow, lots of fine detail in those engines!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Frederic Testard on April 14, 2010, 06:07:59 PM
The details and colours of these engines and their concrete support are really convincing, Jacq.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: BBLmber on April 16, 2010, 12:20:23 PM
Jacq, nice job on those steam engines.

Mark


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on April 20, 2010, 08:35:51 AM

  A little bit more work, w're slowly getting there......................

  (http://images35.fotki.com/v1208/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4346-vi.jpg)

  (http://images12.fotki.com/v236/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4347-vi.jpg)

  Boiler house first set up.
 
  (http://images110.fotki.com/v570/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4348-vi.jpg)

  The boilers scratchbuilt with usable parts from the Western Scale and CHB horizontal fire tube boilers.
  I modified them to show sawdust burning types known as dutch ovens.
  The parts for the sawdust feeding chutes, small bunkers and delivery ducts are all cut but not assembled yet.

  (http://images54.fotki.com/v242/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4349-vi.jpg)

  All related piping will be added. I am considering moving the boilers towards the edge of the module to be able to show with a cut out the inner parts of the boiler.
  The roof trusses are made from paper. make a crisp fold over of a glossy cover page ( heavy paper) and cut a strip of the required size 2", 3" what ever size you need and fold open, resulting in scale size angles with correct wallthickness.
 Sizes here are 4" and 2.5" with 0,5" gussets and spacers.
 The walls of the building are made from photoframe carton. After sealing and priming I will try  ::) ::) to make it look like concrete.

 (http://images35.fotki.com/v1208/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4351-vi.jpg)

 An overview of the end of the mill module with green chain deck, sawdust and slash conveyor will be added when boiler house is fixed in the landscape.

(http://images110.fotki.com/v570/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4352-vi.jpg)

The engine house walls will be rebuilt. The template for the maintenance platform is ready, with sample of grating material.( PCS )
When boiler house is in place, I can finalise all piping from boilers to machines and cilinders all over the place.

Jacq

  Jacq
 
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on April 20, 2010, 01:47:24 PM
Looks like I will be the first to applaud your latest efforts. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on April 20, 2010, 02:48:51 PM
Just an excellent job Jacq.  Everything is really coming together.  Like I said awhile back this will be a hard act to follow as far as sawmills are concerned.

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on April 20, 2010, 05:33:07 PM
In general I think it looks great, but I still have a major issue with the separation between the boiler house and the steam engine structure.....this makes no sense....neither visually nor real world function wise.

Visually I think the gap offers no benefit, and merely creates and unecessarry visual break and tension. I also feel that a unified boiler/engine structure would have a better proportional/visual balance in relation to the size of the mill structure behind it.

Prototypically I cannot see any reason these two would not share a common wall....not sharing a wall is wasteful (not cost effective) as it requires more structural work, and more building material.....something that most companies in this day would have avoided. allso not cost/labor effective is the need for additional footing and formwork, required to create a seperated structure.  By not sharing a common wall it allso does not allow each of the buildings to benefit from the additional lateral strength that would result in an L shaped structure.  It also does not make sense to run the steam ducting outside from the bioler house than back inside to the machine house.

Lastly, my concerns are.......the apparent thickness of the walls, I am pretty sure that these would have been at least in the neighborhood of 10" or more in thickness. ......and the stacks seem a bit low, you would want any embers coming out of them to be higher above the eave line, of the mill so as to make sure any cross winds creating a vortex did not tumble/blow them up under the eaves where they could easily catch the mill on fire. Look at some photos of the stacks on mills and you'll see they try to keep them a good height above the roofs.


...anyhow...just my thoughts for what they're worth.


Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: mobilgas on April 20, 2010, 06:50:26 PM
Jacq,   Coming together nicely ;D ;)   Craig


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on April 21, 2010, 04:26:09 AM


  Marc,
 regarding the separation of the engine house and boiler house

 the drawings you send me showed the engine house as an annexe to the boilerhouse and supports your remarks regarding sense of use of materials.
 Reality showed something else when viewing photo's :

  (http://images12.fotki.com/v252/photos/7/1437817/7592253/nLCo_MillandShay_rosborne_copy-vi.jpg)

 I agree with you that gap creates no added benefit. When redoing the engine house walls, I'll have a look how it looks like when they are connected as in the original drawings.

 Looking at this photo and some more in the book "They felled the redwoods" the buildings are from "paneled" concrete with wall columns and beams. Are these wall panels 10" thick ??  The columns and beams I made are 12" x 12" and the panels are 4" thick.

 The final smoke stacks will reach for the sky  ;D ;D ;D and will be fastened to the modules top structure.

 Jacq

 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on April 21, 2010, 01:43:16 PM
Quote
Reality showed something else when viewing photo's

Hmm...interesting.  Still doesn't make sense to me though. ;)


I think even with a panelized system 4" is far too thin, especially so for the day (even for today this is a thickness requires some skilled and controlled work with very specific materials).  You can't get a really good solid concrete pour into a tall board form at that thickness, and especially so if there was any tupe of reinforcing mesh or bar in there. Remember that they would probably have used site available aggregate and sand to mix with the cement, so the quality control of the material and mix would have some limitations (as has been evidenced by photos of the mix found in the dam and remaining footings).  Even for a panel system I would guess at absolute min. 6" on the panels if not 8".  Remeber also, the thinner the wall/pour cavity, the less height can be done in a single pour, because the chances become greater for air pockets and "un-setteled" areas (and tamping in such a narrow space is not that easy), thus the chance for holes, gaps and weaker walls.  You would also not want too many "shallow pours" because that would leave you with a lot of weak points (dry joints).


Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: NORCALLOGGER on April 21, 2010, 09:05:26 PM
Jacq, Marc,
Perhaps they were using tilt-up construction methods.  Tilt-up technology goes back to 1900 or so. 
Most tilt-up wall systems I have been around were 6-10 inches thick, having said that I believe the newer technology of pre-stressed panels will get down to the 4-6 inch thickness.  looking at the pictures and Jacq's model that shows the panels between larger the square columns I believe that this is how they built this structure.

Boiler flue diameter and height were very carefully engineered. To much height and the flue gases lost to much heat and wouldn't properly vent, too low a flue would cause to rapid a venting and over firing.

Just a couple of obsevations.
Is there room from the front of the boilers to the wall to allow cleaning or pulling the tubes?
Where are these boilers getting their combustion air?  I don't see any louvers or other openings to the outside, other than the wall your not modeling.

Beautiful project.
Rick 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on April 22, 2010, 01:34:50 AM
After considering the criticism and analysis, maybe the best choice would be to scrap the entire project. After all, it is as hideous as one of those Chuck Doan things. (Chuck is the Stephen King of dioramists, you know.) If you want, I could send you a chainsaw, an ax, and a stake to drive through its heart .... -- ssuR


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: hguent2003 on April 22, 2010, 10:46:45 AM
After considering the criticism and analysis, maybe the best choice would be to scrap the entire project. After all, it is as hideous as one of those Chuck Doan things. (Chuck is the Stephen King of dioramists, you know.) If you want, I could send you a chainsaw, an ax, and a stake to drive through its heart .... -- ssuR

Jacq,

an option would be that you send the stuff to me and I will scrap it for you. ;D Possibly, perhaps, depends :-\

Harald


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on April 22, 2010, 11:37:10 AM
  I will consider the options Russ is mentioning....... :D :D,  I can always burn the mill down and send the result to the NG convention.

  As one of those inquisitive idiots, I have studied the remarks from Marc and Rick carefully and decided to increase the wall thickness to 6mm in 1:48 which turns out to be 6x48:25.4= 11.33"  This should satisfy most critics I hope.  ;D ;D ;D ;D
The change has been carried out and I have to admit ( maybe a bit grudgingly after cutting 2mm hard carton..) that it looks a lot better...... That Reusser fellow, sometimes a pia but his observations are generally to the point.

The next sore point might be the texture of these walls...... any suggestions ???.  I'll make some test pieces ;D ;D ;D ;D to show.
I have already a nice mix of colors which all have the beige undertone.... ;) ;) so that is covered.  But I doubt or it ever will show up with the correct white balance setting of my camera . Now I understand why others put up so much junk and clutter outside their structures............

My old office chair finally decided not to carry my weight anymore. :'( :'(  The seating for the gasspring failed.  I have NOT been catapulted...

 I am modeling now standing or on a small old church seat and I must admit, I get more done. I don't dose off as in the old seat, stay allert, like when a young boy in church :D   Next week I'll go for another comfy one......

 Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on April 22, 2010, 02:38:42 PM
I was digging through some boxes of unscanned images looking for stuff for a research project I am helping someone with, when I came across an image of Madera Sugare Pine Lumber Company's operation.....looking at it, it struck me how much the double tracked area/log dump layout and the general hilside looked like what Jacq was building on his module, I felt I just had to post it.....so below is a detail crop of that image.




Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on April 24, 2010, 11:45:05 AM

  Marc,

  thank you for that photo. 
   Yes, the MSCP and others you pointed out like the Hume Bennett, Brookings and others,  together with the Mumby Lumber photo
  enabled me to create a mental image of the diorama I want to built.

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: RoughboyModelworks on May 02, 2010, 06:30:54 PM
Jacq:

I'm assuming you have Hank Johnston's book Thunder in the Mountains about the Madera Sugar Pine. If you look on the map at the end of the book, you'll see North Fork south of Bass Lake, not far from the type of area you're modelling.

Paul


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on May 04, 2010, 01:41:08 PM

  Paul,

  yes I have the book and curiousas I am, I looked the area up with some satelite maps.  When shifting to where the Sugarpine mill was, the area is still recognisable, the pond, the trackbed iwo the logdump, etc.

  a beautiful area, worth visiting when in California..

 coming weekend the last exhibition with the H0 layout. Together with the fact that the layout has been sold make it all unreal, even a bit weird.  When returning home on Tuesday,and preparing all for transport to the new owner.

  Jacq
 
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: RoughboyModelworks on May 04, 2010, 09:55:31 PM
  yes I have the book and curiousas I am, I looked the area up with some satelite maps.  When shifting to where the Sugarpine mill was, the area is still recognisable, the pond, the trackbed iwo the logdump, etc.

  a beautiful area, worth visiting when in California..
  Jacq
 

I figured you'd do a little searching. All of that area is within a short and beautiful drive of the house. Hopefully you'll be able to make it up this way when you cross the pond in a few years. The door is always open to friends and extended family.

Paul


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on May 18, 2010, 09:14:37 AM

  after returning from Leverkusen, the garage is empty.
  Was as in the last couple of days the last module has been assembled and connected to the 2 middle units.
 
   (http://images17.fotki.com/v523/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4498-vi.jpg)

   uprights for backdrop and valance cantilevers in place. All rail except 600mm curve in place.
   After drawing in the calculated transition curve (and possibly installing the risers for an easement of ca 1 mm) the curve will go in.

    (http://images54.fotki.com/v1593/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4499-vi.jpg)

    (http://images53.fotki.com/v545/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4500-vi.jpg)

    Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on May 18, 2010, 02:27:27 PM
Hi Jacq,
It can be a bit difficult at first to part with a layout, but then the benefits of the large amount of fresh creative space gained from its departure can really inspire the modelling potentials in front of you.  Enjoy the new space, and I look forward to seeing the growth of this next monster.  Nice opportunity to get some more realistic lengths to the run of the line with a long layout like this, giving a truer impression of what a logging railway was like.  Good stuff...

Cheers,
Dan


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on May 23, 2010, 01:46:55 PM

  The landscaping kept haunting me , so I did the basics and start tommorow on the finish.
 
   (http://images53.fotki.com/v536/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4511-vi.jpg)

   But first I like to get some advice.........
   With a few beers and quite some brandy inside me the colors etc looks very promising.
   The light green shade of the hillside, together with yellow and orange alternatives to Marc's popsicles is quite appealing and up to the NNG convention, but I haven't followed Russ his advise yet to add chains and antlers.


   (http://images17.fotki.com/v524/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4514-vi.jpg)

   The last module of the 4 is now so far that the basics are done.
   All track is in with a 24"radius, curve compensated line dissappearing in a cut. It is very difficult when finished to see the openig to the back.
   Trains run well, one of the B'mann shays developed gear problems but B'mann send me a full replacement of shafs with gears and motor with gearbox. Was a big surprise.
 
   This module will also have a workshop with some donkeys outside and small houses higher up.
   
   (http://images114.fotki.com/v1606/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4512-vi.jpg)
 
   (http://images9.fotki.com/v1603/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4515-vi.jpg)

   Jacq
   


 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: LeOn3 on May 24, 2010, 01:54:31 AM
Jacq, good to see that the cut in the last module is going to be behind a workshop, so that a "mousehole" aint visible.
But on the other hand....with some beers and liquor you won't see that at all. ;D ;D ;D

Leon


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on June 03, 2010, 02:19:33 AM

 When finalising the basics for the landscape and senery I had to redo the slopes of the cuts along the track as the angle was not to my liking.
 This angle has now been modified to the standards used and the transition to the normal groundlevel accentuated as seen in many photo's.
 
Scrutinising a lot of photo's it appears these cuts do have a lighter surface color than the more horizontal area's.
 What is the prevailing color of the material in these cuts in the area I am trying to model (the Madera Sugar Pine Sawmill or the Hume Bennett mill) as now I have the change to correct it, finish the forrest floor and start planting the trees I have made.

I have been looking at fitting background photo's or "wallpaper".  One or two that appear usefull do have a pricetag and do not really offer what I am looking for. A small calculation showed me it will be cheaper to buy a color printer and do my own background photo's. Even an A3 inkjet turned out cheaper. As the background sheets can be inserted afterwards, I can experiment and prepare a good fittng collage myself.

Jacq
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on June 04, 2010, 04:25:50 AM
 I am back at the points made in previous replies regarding balance of nature and landscape ( dam) colors.
 When putting in the shape of the land, I realised that the compression, used to arrange the buildings, was too optimistic.  It is possible to built it as first drawn, but it is loosing it's " sense of realism". The "scenes" are loosing their space needed to exist in harmony with each other.
The complete diorama needs to radiate a correct balance and not an assembly of individual scenes with their compulsory scenic dividers.

 I realise now that creating the atmosphere shown in Mumby photo needs at least twice the length to remain realistic as a model. This was only noticed after the landscape was taking shape.  Seeing this "discrepancy"  is like noticing a tiny star in your windscreen. As soon as it is noticed, it becomes very  annoying, to the extend that a replacement will be considered.
 
In this case I got up in the middle of the night to try some landscape idea's that appeared like projections on the inside of my skul.  :o :o
I took out nearly all the planned buildings on the far side of the track and deleted 2 on the front side to "harmonise" the landscape. Now it even looks more like the Madera Sugar Pine Lumber photo Marc showed.

 Like Jean-Bernard André I believe a diorama has to tell a story. This means there are a protagonist and an antagonist to create a tension that
 will attract the observer or "reader" without too many words and also gives a balance.
 For me, the arrangement of all parts in the viewing frame has to show a natural setting without necessary tricks.  With all the applied and ( professionally ?) advised compressions, the sense of realism somehow has been lost and replaced by the "amusement park" arrangements seen on many layouts / diorama's as the most attractive . For many this type of layout now appears the standard.

The diorama shows a scale 234 m ( 750 feet)  Think what is in reality visible within these dimensions ..........and what can be presented realistic within these confinements when modeling 1:48 or whatever scale fancied. 
In that respect, each scale is facing specific problems.....solving these is the real challenge............... and fun.

Jacq
 

 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on June 04, 2010, 01:14:38 PM
I think what you realized last night, Jacq, is that "less is more". -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on June 04, 2010, 02:28:34 PM
Jacq,
So what you're saying is that you now plan to build another 6 modules, yeah?   ;D

Dan


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on June 07, 2010, 12:53:24 PM

  Dan,

  maybe... ;) first finish this part off. Than a 1:35 diorama I have already in my mind.  ;D ;D ;D ;D

  here some progress.
 The 2 modules most affected by the choice to reduce the amount of buildings. " Less is more" remark from Russ is spot on.
  Even when working along these principles and guide lines, it is very easy to add without realising it.
  Some test trees WITHOUT FOLIAGE placed to see what background will be the best.

  (http://images12.fotki.com/v531/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4517-vi.jpg)

  The rebuilt cut in the landscape.  Colours are not comparable as 70% off ground cover is wet.

  (http://images17.fotki.com/v529/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4516-vi.jpg)

  overall view. In the cutout where the shay stands, innitially I planned a single stall engine house. I consider replacing this with a small depot.
  of the short line.
 
 The slopes have been finished on module 4, but all is too wet to show the correct colours.

  When doing my daily bicycle trip on Wednesday, I'll collect, while in search for Marc's concrete fence posts, material for the forest floor and ground cover.

 Last saturday the postman delivered a long awaited parcel with 2 CHB kits, DE330 a 3 drum ADH hoist engine and DE1000 as WSI loading engine. What a beautiful stuff. Before I knew I was fully engrossed in assembling the ADH kit as I saw directly how I could make the sub assemblies before painting. I ordered a new magnifying headband to built up the boiler correctly, what a details.... ;D ;D ;D

 (http://images116.fotki.com/v1596/photos/7/1437817/8791338/DSC_4525-vi.jpg)

 (http://images19.fotki.com/v1612/photos/7/1437817/8791338/DSC_4526-vi.jpg)

 (http://images56.fotki.com/v1602/photos/7/1437817/8791338/DSC_4527-vi.jpg)

 (http://images34.fotki.com/v1121/photos/7/1437817/8791338/DSC_4519-vi.jpg)

 (http://images18.fotki.com/v270/photos/7/1437817/8791338/DSC_4522-vi.jpg)

 some quick and dirty photo's. I'll make proper ones when all are cleaned and fit correctly.
 The accuracy ia amazing. the pinion and gears mesh so well, without much cleaning, that all drums rotate when one is turned.
 Building instructions are medieval and a p.i.a. but that makes the challenge even larger. As Chuck said a long time ago "thank you mr Brommer"

 For these donkeys I am looking for details of fitting sleds.
 The Willamette will get a 40'0" to 50'0" sled. For the ADH I am not sure. If  used as a wide faced donkey I think 25'0" to 35'0" might do, but some more advise is appreciated.

 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on June 07, 2010, 12:56:51 PM
After we spend $30 on Priority Mail it still took that long for the box to arrive? That's criminal! -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on June 07, 2010, 01:05:09 PM

   Your parcel has not arrived yet  :o :o :o :o
   I received a check list from the post, in which they ask me to provide all details, which you marked already clearly readable, so they can assess this shipment as 1.gift, 2 commercial, 3 other.
 I missed the question where they ask for the color of my underpants when the parcel will be delivered.  :D

  In other words, it was selected to undergo a bureaucratic investigation or the information supplied by you is correct or not. As your sheet was included, it was not difficult to supply them with the correct info  8)

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on June 07, 2010, 05:36:00 PM
After we spend $30 on Priority Mail it still took that long for the box to arrive? That's criminal! -- Russ


You should have spent the $38 like me...it only took 7 days ;D.....though it took me 4 months to get it to the post office :-X :-\


MR


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on June 07, 2010, 05:59:22 PM
Jacq,

The AHD is looking nice....glad to see this being built and given the attention it desrves.

I will start feeding you donkey/sled info as we go/as I come across it and scan it or run it through PS.....so not necessarily in any special order.

The top image shows to sled runners under construction. On the right sled runner you can see a sled plate sitting on top of the runner waiting to be installed.

The bottom image looks like what would probably be a good sized sled for the AH&D. Note the different style of sled plate on this one, as well as the way the cable is looped through it and arond the runner.

I have segeral packages of sled plates...let me see which ones I have duplicates of, and possibly send you some.

MR


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on June 07, 2010, 06:18:10 PM
The top images shows a Yarder in the background, and a Yarder sled under construction at left (distiguishable by the large timber  for mounting the Fairleader unit).

The bottom image shows another view of a Yarder sled under construction.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on June 07, 2010, 06:29:53 PM
Here is a sled constructed of cut timbers...this size would probably work for the AHD as well. Note the interesting hook design instead of the "through" sled plate.



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on June 07, 2010, 06:37:41 PM
Notice this donkey does not have an "on board" water storage...water seems to be being supplied directly via the pipe from a nearby water source. Note that this smaller sled has "ring-pull" type sled plates.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on June 07, 2010, 06:52:20 PM
Roader/Yarder. Carpentry doesn't seem to have been the forte of the superstructure builder.  The skids on the unit are lined front to back on the underside with steel. Note the cable attached to the logs from the front sled plate, and to a tree or stump from trhe rear of the sled. This was done to keep the Donkey from pulling forward during roading operations.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on June 07, 2010, 07:00:13 PM
Cant tell if these are WISCO or WIW units....but if I recall correctly (without checking) PSMTCo. used 41' -foot flatcars, so that would put the sleds for these around 40-41' feet.

It was not uncommon practice to build sleds so that they would fit onto the flat-cars for transport into the woods.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on June 07, 2010, 07:13:52 PM
This is a Willamette unit at Madera Sugar Pine. If I recall, MSP used 28' Flatcars. Note the steel plates on the skid runners.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on June 07, 2010, 07:14:48 PM
Here is another photo of an MSPLCo unit.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on June 07, 2010, 07:41:38 PM
Great pics, Marc!

On that shot of the yarder under construction, there's an interesting tool visible. It looks like a sort of portable, hand-operated drill press.

The people in these old photos always looked so grim. I don't know if it was just the fashion of the times, when having your picture taken, or what, but you rarely see anyone smiling.



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on June 09, 2010, 04:44:59 AM

  Russ,

 the parcel was within a couple of days in Holland. Just bad luck it was selected by the costums.......  :(  I had to pay import duty over estimated costs of the kit AND the shipping cost + bureacratic charges.  All in all an extra $30,-.  >:( >:(
 Marc's cost are higher as the parcel was heavier.  ;) 
 
 both thanks a lot,
  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on June 09, 2010, 03:03:25 PM
The following posts are from material I was collecting for an article on building donkey sleds...that I unfortunately never got around to finishing.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on June 09, 2010, 03:04:30 PM
Pic that accompanied above text....


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on June 09, 2010, 03:06:19 PM
...s'more


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on June 09, 2010, 03:12:01 PM
two more....


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on June 09, 2010, 03:16:39 PM
This one would probably work for the AH&D.



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on June 09, 2010, 03:17:34 PM
Here is a very genereric sled for the Willamette.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on June 09, 2010, 06:54:54 PM
Great pics and info!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on June 09, 2010, 07:15:18 PM
It really goes to show, how many RR logging modelers model their donkey sleds way under sized.

MR


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on June 10, 2010, 02:03:35 AM

  Marc,

 thanks,  the donkeys will NOT be undersized.

 The ADH will get as suggested a 36' sled and the WISCO's will look nice on 45' - 50' sleds.
 I am thinking of putting one on 2 dissconnects or a matching flat car. Any suggestion where I can get a 40' flatcar ?
 
 Any idea's for water / fuel tanks ?
 It looks like the donkey boilers are laid out for wood firing.
 Watertanks ??  Many photo's show hoses directly to the injector and connected to a steam pump near the water source driven by the boiler.

 The magnifying set arrived.. 8). makes all the difference locating all those tiny boiler and steam engine parts. Now getting used to it.. ::)
 My hands are somewhere else than what I am seeing.....without any alcohol  ;)

 Jacq
 
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on June 10, 2010, 02:31:03 AM
Jacq,

I will measure the CHB Oil burner concversion kit that I have, that was made for the Willamettes.

Donkeys were both wood and oil fired but oil firing came later and not all operations adopted it, as wood was still the cheapest and easiest/most readily available fuel source. Tanks were both steel and wood, as you can read in those articles and see in the images. Water for early Dolbeers and M&C units was often also supplied by horses and mules.  I also have a photo that shows water box sleds....small two compartment water tanks mounted on sled runners that were dragged by horses or mules.......but I think for you I would maybe do a wooden tank on the AH&D and a cylindrical steel tank for water. (the cylindrical tanks were also done in two compartments...one for water and one for oil......the oild was brought to them via rail (tank cars)....but the water tank generally had a water supply connection of some sort that pumped or siphoned water in....or even a simple downhill gravity feed line.

I think a 40' flatcar for a 30" gauge would seem a bit wierd and out of scale/proportion.....I would use some decent disconnects or load it on two 24' flats. In the FMW build thread I did a 28' flat, and IMO that still seems to look OK on a 30" gauge track. (you could also load it on a 28' flat and use "roosters" in the L&P couplers to space the cars or loco as needed to clear the sled) One "visual problem is the width of the Donkey sled...say around 9'-6"...and the width of a 30" gauge car (generally around 7') or 30" gauge log bunk/disconnect...It would possibly look a bit too "tipsy". (Westside, SPLCo and other companies did haul donkeys on 36" gauge flats)

I was actually going to suggest using flat cars in general for your operation, instead of disconnects.....as there are no decent looking 30" disconnects out there.


I have some 36" gauge brass disconnect kits (I think 6 of them) that I need to get rid of...that could possibly be regauged to 30"...and they will definitely look better than the Bmann ones or any of the other 30" ones out there.  I'll take some pics of the parts if you are interested. 

MR


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Marc988 on June 10, 2010, 11:47:46 AM
How about the disconnects? These are both available in 3' and 30".

I haven't seen these in real live but the pictures look promissing ...

(http://www.backwoodsminiatures.com/xlogcar01.jpg)



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on June 10, 2010, 01:12:13 PM

  Marc988,

  I have 5 sets of BM disconnects. 2 sets assembled but not painted yet. Very nice, coupler hight pocket is for 0n3. For 0n30 the coupler can be fixed underneath the pocket.

 When the donkeys are done, I'll start, beside landscaping etc, on rolling stock.
 
 
 Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on June 10, 2010, 02:30:00 PM
Gentlemen, I edited the post because that manufacturer has cheated me and others. I will do everything possible to spare you the aggravation of dealing with such a dishonest and sociopathic business and if you choose to do it anyway, please keep any references to them or their products off this site.

As you know, this is not the kind of thing I do lightly and I don't think I have done it before. I have very good reasons for my actions and hope you understand.

Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on June 10, 2010, 04:10:35 PM

  Marc,

  please show some photo's, Beside the ones mentioned, I have 5 pairs On30 from The Model Factory from NZ with correct coupler hight etc.
  and 24" wheels. I have a 8 small skeletons from BV, out my the time I was complete ignorant of what the real ones looked like...
  I don't have the B'mann skeletons, only the skips..
  The ones you and Marty built as shown on the Terrapin site are interesting, the one Russ built in 1:32 is too small for a logging operation as I am trying to built.

  The ADH donkey is except for the valve control system finished. Tomorrow I'll take some photo's prior to painting. I am looking for good waxed 0,3 -0,5 mm waxed rigging tread to spool the drums.

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: lab-dad on June 10, 2010, 05:02:02 PM
FWIW I have three sets of the ones pictured and they are crap.
They look nice but will not work for On30 and one who wishes to operate a layout.
Besides they are a bitch to assemble.
-Marty


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on June 11, 2010, 01:37:16 AM
  Marty ,

  yes  I agree, not the easiest to built.
  KW offers several types wooden disconnects, one expensive in wood and a cheaper one in white metal. Are they usefull ?
  I had an idea about the white metal ones, use them as base/weight and cover them with wood to represent a type as built by Marty.

  Jacq

 

 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: lab-dad on June 11, 2010, 06:19:04 AM
After I got the "other" kits and gave up I built my own.
They have a rooster and run fine in a string of three; empty (or full).
Unc, published an article on them, and I think I may have the instructions.......
-Marty


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on June 11, 2010, 06:22:09 AM
   Marty,

   
Quote
I think I may have the instructions.......

   I asked you a long time ago and you reffered to Russ....and Russ to you  so  :( :(

   But I have enough to do..

   the ADH donkey is ready for the painter. The drums will be fixed after the wires have been wound.
   
   Here a little tour:

   (http://images19.fotki.com/v1612/photos/7/1437817/8791338/DSC_4528-vi.jpg)

   (http://images116.fotki.com/v1596/photos/7/1437817/8791338/DSC_4531-vi.jpg)

   (http://images116.fotki.com/v1596/photos/7/1437817/8791338/DSC_4532-vi.jpg)

   (http://images12.fotki.com/v532/photos/7/1437817/8791338/DSC_4533-vi.jpg)

   (http://images56.fotki.com/v1602/photos/7/1437817/8791338/DSC_4534-vi.jpg)

   (http://images53.fotki.com/v1610/photos/7/1437817/8791338/DSC_4535-vi.jpg)

   (http://images114.fotki.com/v1605/photos/7/1437817/8791338/DSC_4538-vi.jpg)

   the glass was made from clear sprue, heated, pulled out and the right diameter selected and cut.
   the bars next to the glass are single strand e-wire. They will be straightened when the glue has set.
 

   Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on June 11, 2010, 01:44:15 PM
Nice work on the donkey, Jacq.

If you or anyone really needs info on Marty's disconnects, I could try to dig up the lo-res PDF and e-mail it. Please note, I will do that only for someone who absolutely NEEDS the article and will actually build models (as opposed to intending to build them).

Marty, should that happen, it would help me if I knew when I published the article. I can't remember! (Either because of Alzheimer's or having been in business too long ....)

Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on June 11, 2010, 02:52:05 PM

   Russ,

   
Quote
If you or anyone really needs info on Marty's disconnects, I could try to dig up the lo-res PDF and e-mail it.

  yes please,

   Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: lab-dad on June 12, 2010, 07:38:34 AM
Info & pictures are on it's way.

The pictures of the Donkey almost look like builders etchings!
I am surprised you assembled before any finishes.
-Marty


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on June 12, 2010, 08:14:34 AM
  Marty,

  all arrived ok.,  thanks.

  The donkey drums still can be removed.  I am waiting for the wires to go on the drums.
  With the drums removed all area's are easily accessible, so painting and weathering will be no problem. I'll checked this during the test fitting of 
  parts and subassemblies.
  Jacq
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on June 12, 2010, 02:03:22 PM
Jacq, do you still need the PDFs or did Marty send everything? -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on June 12, 2010, 04:00:57 PM

  Russ,

  I received an exploded view with material sizes and 2 photo's.  Enough info to enable building a number of sets.
  Thanks for all the efforts

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: lab-dad on June 12, 2010, 04:24:44 PM
He got all there is and more!
-Marty


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on June 16, 2010, 03:56:05 AM

  AHD donkey progress:

  (http://images18.fotki.com/v270/photos/7/1437817/8791338/DSC_4543-vi.jpg)

  36'0" sled from 36"x24" timber. basic material is ( hard grade) balsa.

  (http://images19.fotki.com/v1611/photos/7/1437817/8791338/DSC_4542-vi.jpg)

  colored with dirty terpentine. To be finished with further washes and powders.
  Fairleads,sledplates, etc under construction or ordered.

 (http://images18.fotki.com/v270/photos/7/1437817/8791338/DSC_4544-vi.jpg)

 Tension rods, decking and sidewalk still to be added, before superstructure will go on.

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Chuck Doan on June 16, 2010, 08:07:32 AM
Looks good, Jacq! Seems like nice proportions for the sled.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on June 18, 2010, 01:17:15 AM
Nice work on the donkey and sled. Good proportions. Found this tonight while digging out images...in case you need a wood tank on that ;) ;D

Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on June 24, 2010, 08:04:36 AM

  Work has started on a wooden watertank approx 600 gallons.
  I also did some work on the landscaping.
  Still waiting for the correct colored flocking material for the trees and grass.
 
  (http://images17.fotki.com/v529/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4562-vi.jpg)

  I replaced the old cut out. When the glue has dried, burned grass, the undergrowth and trees will finish the scene.
  Trees are reperesenting second growth and are made from 15 and 20 mm balsa round and square. Branches are made from ripped apart oven filters. Green will be mix Woodland ( only flocking material that comes close to the green color from photo's of trees near Hume lake or Converse basin).

 (http://images47.fotki.com/v1397/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4563-vi.jpg)

 Stumps are from salvaged pine from the forest floor.  Diameters vary from 0,5" to 2" and larger.
 

 (http://images116.fotki.com/v705/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4565-vi.jpg)

 eye's level view .

 (http://images12.fotki.com/v539/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4564-vi.jpg)

 detail photo's of finished donkey will follow shortly. Tank and superstructure under construction.
 Did these wide face donkeys carried fairleads ? The loaders do what I can see on Marc's photo's and in books.

 (http://images19.fotki.com/v1612/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4569-vi.jpg)

  5' dia x 16' log in transport.

  Jacq


 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: lab-dad on June 24, 2010, 10:44:39 AM
Looking real good!
Love the scene coming along!
Some donkeys had multiple fairleads depending on the operation/use.
Remember, the logs need to be a little longer than the finished boards.
I know 'cause my mill cuts 16" sixteen foot lumber,  ;D so our incoming logs are about 17'4"
-Marty


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on June 24, 2010, 12:34:54 PM
Nice real Nice!!  The scenery is coming along great.
One of the best mills ever modeled.

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Philip Smith on June 24, 2010, 08:24:00 PM
Looking real good!
Love the scene coming along!
Some donkeys had multiple fairleads depending on the operation/use.
Remember, the logs need to be a little longer than the finished boards.
I know 'cause my mill cuts 16" lumber,  ;D so our incoming logs are about 17'4"
-Marty

Looks great Jacq! Nice details

Just 16" Marty ;D

Philip


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: RoughboyModelworks on June 27, 2010, 09:26:21 AM
This is coming along beautifully Jacq. The consistent level of craftsmanship throughout is impressive, especially given the speed at which you're working. It's been a real privilege to follow this project from the its inception.

Paul


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on July 05, 2010, 02:50:47 PM

   Basic landscaping of 2 module finished and watertank base in place.
   Still waiting for the finishing material for trees, bushes ( > 4 weeks   >:( >:()  and structure hardware like tank hoop fasteners, etc.

   Before finalising the finer details of the forest, all electrics will be connected and tested.
 
   The shay I was able to purchase from Bernard arrived and after the first priod of admiration, the cab and tank wil be removed shortly to install a decoder, crew and cordwood load over the motor.

  (http://images56.fotki.com/v1601/photos/7/1437817/8275523/DSC_4580-vi.jpg)

  (http://images17.fotki.com/v521/photos/7/1437817/8275523/DSC_4571a-vi.jpg)

  (http://images53.fotki.com/v425/photos/7/1437817/8275523/DSC_4574-vi.jpg)

  (http://images53.fotki.com/v1610/photos/7/1437817/8275523/DSC_4575-vi.jpg)

  (http://images53.fotki.com/v1609/photos/7/1437817/8275523/DSC_4578-vi.jpg)

  The puzzle of contradictions of all  idea's, wishes and realistic limitations appears complete, so the finishing touches.......


  Jacq

 

 
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on July 06, 2010, 02:37:06 AM
But it's all coming along. Too bad the coloration of the photos is so far off. I think you forgot to set your white balance for incandescent bulbs. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: eTraxx on July 06, 2010, 04:34:46 AM
Looking good. I need to read up on setting the balance for photos .. I usually just fiddle with the controls until it looks right .. but seriously need to understand what I am doing! I played with one of the photos a bit to try and get the colors better ..

(http://i856.photobucket.com/albums/ab130/LCRRinHO/General%20Photos/logging.jpg)


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on July 06, 2010, 08:31:49 AM

  Russ,

  mea culpa.  ::)

  Presently the modules are in the most unfavourable position for photography.  >:(

  Jacq 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: LeOn3 on July 06, 2010, 12:03:32 PM

  Presently the modules are in the most unfavourable position for photography.  >:(

  Jacq 

But since my last visit... it's still looking great.

Leon


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on July 06, 2010, 01:59:26 PM
See how much better the MODELING looks when the color is more accurate? I was able to infer that but the corrected color of the water tank photo removes most of the guesswork. I hope all visitors to the site now will appreciate the outstanding artistry and craftsmanship. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on July 16, 2010, 03:21:09 PM

 As the layout is progressing fast, I have to live with the lighting till the H0 layout will be on it's way to Lappland the first week of September.
 With the amount of final idea's in my mind and some material to proceed, I often forget or do not give myself the time, to prepare for making correct  photo's.  ::) ::) and just shoot freehand  :-[ :-[
 
 to show the progress, here some quick and dirty shots of the wooding up area and the new watertank.

 (http://images56.fotki.com/v1602/photos/7/1437817/7821034/DSC_4589-vi.jpg)

 (http://images56.fotki.com/v702/photos/7/1437817/7821034/DSC_4591-vi.jpg)


 A loading area has been built for the wood fire engines, after some photo's of the Pino Grande.
 This area first was reserved for a small engine shed and it turned out a lot more interesting showing the rows of cordwood instead of another timber structure.  This area definitely offers some nice possibilities to capture typical logging scenes.


 (http://images12.fotki.com/v237/photos/7/1437817/7821034/DSC_4592-vi.jpg)

 (http://images54.fotki.com/v451/photos/7/1437817/7821034/DSC_4597-vi.jpg)

 A new smaller watertank has been built to replace the large one seen in the earlier photo's. The large tank was built around the size of the backwoods tank by Rusty Stumps. The new one is a lot smaller and is not as dominating as the larger one was.
 
 (http://images112.fotki.com/v599/photos/7/1437817/7821034/DSC_4596-vi.jpg)

 A first glimp of the workshop with full interior..... more to follow.....
 Still no landscaping material, so the trees, shrubs and grass cannot be finished.

 If there is interest, I'll show details of the various DCC control - and lighting systems.

 Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: chester on July 16, 2010, 05:26:16 PM
I'll have to agree that the area is ripe for development. Nice landing. The donkey looks right at home. Always interested in seeing interior stuff too Jacq. And of course your very fussy hands and eyes are evident.  Thanks for the update photos.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on August 08, 2010, 12:15:49 PM

 A bit more work done:

 (http://images17.fotki.com/v326/photos/7/1437817/8791338/DSC_4599-vi.jpg)

 (http://images43.fotki.com/v679/photos/7/1437817/8791338/DSC_4600-vi.jpg)

 The other side of the diorama is taken up by the repairshop. This shop will be with full interior und cut open along the module's edge to give a possibility to look inside.
 Outside there will be a couple of donkeys being prepared for the woods or under repair.

 (http://images12.fotki.com/v240/photos/7/1437817/8791338/DSC_4643-vi.jpg)

 (http://images30.fotki.com/v485/photos/7/1437817/8791338/DSC_4646-vi.jpg)

This is a large Willamette loader DE1000 by CHB. The 52' sled is under construction. This is exquisite !!
Pity the casting of the hoodhinge was not complete. I will add a dummy made from polysterene.

Work is progressing again at full speed. The last month I was for the first time in my life affected by hayfever.
According to the doctor I am allergic for wood..... :o Can you imagine... while building a sawmill  ??? ???

Jacq

 

 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on August 08, 2010, 02:24:41 PM
Maybe you are actually allergic to sawmills .... -- ssuR


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Chuck Doan on August 09, 2010, 08:44:41 AM
I like that cutaway design a lot!

Charlie's donkeys are unmatched in quality and detail. Nice job! My hinges too broke off...I still need to figure out a fix.

Actually sawdust can be harmfull in quantity...better put the roof on that thing!



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on August 09, 2010, 04:30:43 PM
Jacq,
What I really like about this developing layout (apart from the great modelling efforts), is the story points being created along the way.  The open sided buildings gives that "museum" impression, disected for educational purposes of the viewers.  With such a long layout as well, its going to work well with crowd control, spreading peoples interest along the scene.  It shouldn't be hard for the punters to learn a bit about "ol' time logging operations" with this display. 

Are you going to include a display of historic images of this type of operation?  When we did a similar thing with our Dolly Varden display, and the feedback was good.  Viewers would look at the model and comment, saying "surely it wasn't really like that", and then they could read the history, view the original images, and politely retract their original comments.  I think it also gave them a greater appreciation of not just the modelling, but living and working conditions of the era as well.

Nice...as usual.

Cheers,
Dan


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on August 10, 2010, 02:23:13 PM

  Dan,

  to give the public an idea of the background of the diorama, I plan to use 3 digital photo frames, with a memory so I can use powerpoint presentations, covering historic material around the workshop,the log pond and log dump and the sawmill with it's details.
 The biggest difficulty will be the copywright and written approval to use material as it will be on display in public events.

 Now that the diorama is only covering the essentials around the receiving end of the logging cycle, it is easier to concentrate on an overal concept of the diorama and the finer details.

 The first plan, including a condensed village based on Mumby, looked good on paper.
 Building it in 1:48 turned out a complete different piece of cake with a large loss of perspective and scale effect. The needed condensing factor turned out ridiculous.  With a distance from the dam to the repairshop of only 100m it becomes clear that including the village according to the plan will create a caricature, a disneyland effect, which will  only show building skills together with a lack of understanding scale relations.
 There were 2 options.
No repairshop with associated machines, tools etc and trying to squeeze a believable village in an area of 50'0" (15,00m) x 320'0" ( 100,00m)
or create a coherent set up of the area around the logpond 
I choose for the presentation the second option, showing area around the pond with the mill and supporting buildings, on one side and the repairshop on the other side with the track into the woods.  This set up tells a story............

Jacq



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on August 11, 2010, 02:03:46 AM
Great reasoning for limiting the modelling field.  Save the village for the next one...

Maybe Marc has a few images deep within his file that are suitable for public exhibition, and used with his permission (you might have to dish out a few more complimants on his modelling though)  ::)

Dan


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on August 14, 2010, 08:31:16 AM
  A little update.

  Basic landscaping on all modules is finished. Now the fun starts. ;D with grass, bushes, undergrowth, bark between the timbers of the rolway, detailing along the waterside, logs, floating saw, sinker catamaran and trees when necessary.
 
  (http://images9.fotki.com/v448/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4653-vi.jpg)

  The log dump. Different set ups were tested ( visual  and functional ) based on Madera Sugarpine Lumber Co., Westside Lumber Co / Brooking Lumber co, Pino Grande. The MSPL set up offered the most attractive arrangement.
 
  (http://images56.fotki.com/v701/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4649-vi.jpg)

  (http://images40.fotki.com/v776/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4650-vi.jpg)

  (http://images36.fotki.com/v1161/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4651-vi.jpg)

   As the right dump works ( reliable ) like a real one,  I am considering making the second unloader functional too.
 Control is via the DCC controler like a switch so adding a second one will be no problem.
 When the unloading wire is activated, a little well camouflaged hatch opens, so the log dissappears in a tray, ready to be loaded again in the back.

 (http://images38.fotki.com/v1211/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4652-vi.jpg)

 Winch platform with roof.  Winch is made from scrap parts.  Steam cilinder is fed by the mill's steam system. the supply pipe will be installed at the same time as the scenery.

Jacq


 
 

 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: lab-dad on August 14, 2010, 03:39:38 PM
Looking better each time!
I cant wait to see how the automated system comes out.

Question: Have you come across any interesting methods of unloading the disconnects on to the log deck?
My mill has no pond.

-Marty


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on August 15, 2010, 03:27:27 AM
  marty,

 
Quote
Have you come across any interesting methods of unloading the disconnects on to the log deck

  yes, when I have some more time I'll publish some sketches. The principle I worked out is usable for disconnects and skeletons.
  It is a bit too hectic at the moment, working with a deadline AND preparing the large layout for transport to northern Sweden.

  Jacq

 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on August 15, 2010, 02:16:28 PM
Satisfactory. So far. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on August 17, 2010, 06:48:56 PM
I like your idea of using digital photo frames as part of the presentation.

I think I might try something like that with my layout. I could put some up on the patio during open house days. I could use one to show photos of old mines and mining camps that inspired my structures, and maybe some pics of the Carrizo Gorge, which inspired the scenery. Then have another that shows some of the night shots of the buildings, close up pics of details, etc.

I wonder if any of those things can handle short video clips? If so, I could display some onboard video of the layout, too.



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on August 18, 2010, 01:03:22 AM
Ray,
Most half decent digital frames can playback video mpeg files.  The frames are really only limited buy the size of the memory card or flash drive that you load into the side of it.  I intend on using a couple of them on my next exhibition layout; one to run still images on a loop, and the other to play archive footage on.  Usually cheaper than a DVD setup, and less expensive/easier to mount than a laptop.  I managed to pick up a reasonable 12" frame for about $130Au.

Dan


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on August 18, 2010, 03:09:52 PM
Jacq,

the dump loks good. The rollway timbers do look abit new...as if they had just been replaced, so instead of weathering them  (which is a bit tough at this point) how about adding som light rail piecses to the top of each one. this was not uncommon. it made the rollways hold up better and longer....it would also ad another layer/piece of detail to the scene.

M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on August 22, 2010, 08:09:09 AM

 The 2 middle modules are nearly finished. some more trees and tonight the water of the pond.
 
 (http://images53.fotki.com/v53/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4670-vi.jpg)

 A lot of trees finished  :P :P  Some more to go and these units are ready for final detailing and weathering.

 (http://images116.fotki.com/v716/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4666-vi.jpg)

 The unloader rigged up. The mechanisme to unload the logs is ready to be installed.

 (http://images116.fotki.com/v699/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4667-vi.jpg)

 When the water is painted a lot of logs to be prepared for the pond.

 (http://images112.fotki.com/v600/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4668-vi.jpg)

 View from the workshop side.  The sheet in the background is covering the H0 layout.
 1 September this layout will be transported to Kiruna in Lappland. A trip of 2700km ( 1700 miles) one way.
 together with a friend we make it a nice holiday trip. The layout will be set up temporary in a prepared area till a
 new special hobby building is ready. Then it will be installed permantely.

 (http://images56.fotki.com/v701/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_4669-vi.jpg)

 watertank under construction. As I have a spare connection on the servo decoder, i am checking a possibilty to make the spout operational.

 After 10 -11 September when back from Sweden, the Sawmill layout will be set up complete.

 Jacq
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on August 22, 2010, 04:16:01 PM
The trees seem less realistic than the rest of the diorama. Can you apply some kind of material to better suggest what you are trying to represent? Every other aspect of the diorama is wonderful and the enhancements have been very effective. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: lab-dad on August 23, 2010, 06:57:26 AM
I agree about the trees, may be some fine "real" material? or some leaves?

On the water spout;
When my daughter was littler, she always stopped for water when running the trains. I modified a switch machine and used a sound unit from miller Models. Now when a train pulls up, we hit the switch, the sound comes on and the spout lowers. When the tank is full the spout goes back up.
Seems to be a hit with everyone.

-Marty


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on August 23, 2010, 11:32:07 AM
I agree about the trees, may be some fine "real" material? or some leaves?

On the water spout;
 When the tank is full the spout goes back up.
-Marty

  Do you use real water in the tank ? ...Sorry , I was only askin' ,

   Nick


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: lab-dad on August 24, 2010, 07:48:16 AM
Quote
Do you use real water in the tank ? ...Sorry , I was only askin' ,

   Nick

Of course not! Thats silly. We use chicken fat!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: mabloodhound on August 24, 2010, 08:24:12 AM
The fibers used on the trees look too long and interconnected.
Possibly some judicious use of scissors and cutting the pine needles shorter would help.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on August 24, 2010, 02:08:20 PM
Quote
"Do you use real water in the tank ? ...Sorry , I was only askin'"
"Of course not! Thats silly. We use chicken fat!"

Finally! I have been waiting for somebody on this forum to discover the multifaceted uses of chickenfat! Makes paint, lasers, rapid prototyping, machine tools, and computers obsolete!

ssuR


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: JohnP on August 24, 2010, 07:27:28 PM
Runs cars too apparently. Just the thing for that diesel Rabbit I always wanted. And I know I can have chickens in the yard in the city here, 'cuz on my bike ride Sunday I heard a rooster in a regular small-lot old neighborhood.

Russ, your last post for this thread was number 666. I had to post something and quick...

John



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: RoughboyModelworks on August 24, 2010, 08:05:00 PM
Finally! I have been waiting for somebody on this forum to discover the multifaceted uses of chickenfat! Makes paint, lasers, rapid prototyping, machine tools, and computers obsolete!
ssuR
Yeah but, what does it do for all those thong-clad cuties...

Paul


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on August 25, 2010, 01:59:28 AM
Uh, don't ask .... -- ssuR


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: JohnP on August 25, 2010, 07:14:06 PM
All natural suntan oil, whatever else could it be used for? ::)


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on August 30, 2010, 01:28:09 PM

  Trees on the foreground will be replaced and the background trees will have a "haircut" to eliminate the randomness of the branches.
 
  1-11 September I will be in North Sweden, assembling the H0 lay out.
  When back, I am able to set up the complete Sawmill diorama.

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on August 30, 2010, 01:35:18 PM
Promises, promises. And I suppose the check's in the mail, too. -- ssuR


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on September 05, 2010, 02:02:35 AM

  still a 100 miles to go..!!

  (http://images40.fotki.com/v776/photos/7/1437817/7407986/DSC_4723-vi.jpg)

   I'll be back 12 September

   Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on September 22, 2010, 02:33:24 PM
1 September we started on a 2800km trip to Jukkasjarvi,  20 km from Kiruna in North Sweden.
  When entering Denmark, we were scrutinised by th police and costums on the content of the van.  As it was not possible to look inside the boxes, without unloading, the complete van went through a very large mobile X-ray machine. Than the drugs dog was used. One of the policeman thought the bottom of the loading area was very thick, but after a danish discussion, we were allowed to continue..... In my opinion he watched "The french connection" too much.

Tol on both bridges is hefty, the Sealand bridge Euro 97 and the Oresund bridge Euro 78  one way.  Diesel prices are comparable.  From Malmo to Kiruna is some 1800km. All went very well, good hotels, good food made the trip well worth. 

(http://images116.fotki.com/v715/photos/7/1437817/9092078/DSC_4709-vi.jpg)

in the neighborhood of Umea.  This was one of the last ferry crossings in the E4

(http://images18.fotki.com/v61/photos/7/1437817/9092078/DSC_4722-vi.jpg)

 still 180 km to go......... ( 15degr C)

(http://images54.fotki.com/v451/photos/7/1437817/9092078/DSC_4726-vi.jpg)

this is the E10 "autobahn"  in Lappland.  Reideer herds, like this small one, cross regulary.   Max speed is 110km with 70/90 km at crossings.
At nearly evry speed restriction camera poles. And not one vandalised!!!!!!!!

Saturday the 4th we arrived around 15.30h at our destinatin near Kiruna
On Sunday we started building up the layout  in a rebuilt part of a warehouse / garage in the neighbourhood. The room has isolated walls and roof with a parquet floor and complet  climate control.  On Monday morning we unpacked and finalised setting up and trains running. The points and signals system would not start. Some essential parts have been shipped to the manufacturer for control. When reinstalled, a reprogramming might be necessary.

That afternoon, an excursion into the mines in Kiruna was organised for us. We went with a bus to the mine's museum, 575m under the ground. Impressive...
When we entered daylight again, a big surprise awaited us, as we received a private excursion through the LKAB locomotive workshops  where the giant IORE and DM3 locomotives were maintained

(http://images54.fotki.com/v239/photos/7/1437817/9092078/DSC_4778-vi.jpg)

Iore loco

(http://images12.fotki.com/v215/photos/7/1437817/9092078/DSC_4779-vi.jpg)

(http://images12.fotki.com/v253/photos/7/1437817/9092078/DSC_4754-vi.jpg)

(http://images12.fotki.com/v215/photos/7/1437817/9092078/DSC_4752-vi.jpg)

Dm3

(http://images12.fotki.com/v253/photos/7/1437817/9092078/DSC_4763-vi.jpg)

In the last type I was allowed to drive 30 meters. A once in a lifetime experience, controling 275 tons


The next day we started for Stockholm. Sightseeing is definitely NOT one of my favourites, but the Vasa museum was worth all the trouble.


 Since back, I am spending full time on preparing the sawmill layout for the Warley show end of November. With 2 weeks time, when landscaping will be finished, the layout will be assembled for electrical tests and running trains.
 
 Jacq

 

 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Chuck Doan on September 22, 2010, 03:27:31 PM
Welcome back! The Vasa would be a neat thing to see in person.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: RoughboyModelworks on September 22, 2010, 03:44:33 PM
Welcome back Jacq... we've been missing you here. Sounds like it was quite a good road trip, customs officials not withstanding. No sense of humour those people. I agree with Chuck, seeing the Vasa would have been a real treat...

Paul


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on September 22, 2010, 10:35:27 PM
Welcome back, and thanks for sharing those pics! Congrats on getting to drive that loco, too.



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on September 23, 2010, 02:14:15 AM
The area looks very pretty and the trip must have been a lot of fun. But we're all glad you are back with us again. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on September 23, 2010, 05:38:33 AM

   (http://images17.fotki.com/v281/photos/7/1437817/9092078/DSC_4792-vi.jpg)

   logged over area in northern Sweden.  I haven't discovered yet why they leave a number of full grown trees standing.
   This is seen on all logged over area's seen.

   The VASA:

    (http://images9.fotki.com/v54/photos/7/1437817/9092078/DSC_4820-vi.jpg)

    1:10 model

    (http://images9.fotki.com/v55/photos/7/1437817/9092078/DSC_4822-vi.jpg)

     diorama showing the sinking of the Vasa on it's maiden trip after sailing only a very short distance.

    The real one :

    (http://images17.fotki.com/v1621/photos/7/1437817/9092078/DSC_4826-vi.jpg)

    (http://images22.fotki.com/v838/photos/7/1437817/9092078/DSC_4825-vi.jpg)

    (http://images18.fotki.com/v61/photos/7/1437817/9092078/DSC_4824-vi.jpg)

    (http://images110.fotki.com/v302/photos/7/1437817/9092078/DSC_4831-vi.jpg)

    (http://images56.fotki.com/v773/photos/7/1437817/9092078/DSC_4828-vi.jpg)

    (http://images110.fotki.com/v302/photos/7/1437817/9092078/DSC_4830-vi.jpg)

    Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Frederic Testard on September 23, 2010, 02:08:31 PM
Jacq, when I had the pleasure to visit Troels Kirk in Sweden last year, he suggested we visited the Vasa museum in Stockholm and it was a pleasure to discover this almost intact ship which has spent nearly 350 years underwater.
He also mentionned that if we went back to France via Nederlands (which we had planned to do before a paper and card robbery when we were leaving Sweden lead us to change our mind), we could visit the Batavia which was, if I remember well, rebuilt after a ship that sank at the end of her first trip (contrary to the Vasa who sank less than one hour after her launching). I suppose that you know this one.
I suppose you haven't managed to visit Troels when you came back from Sweden. It might have changed your point of view on his wonderful layout...


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on September 23, 2010, 02:21:57 PM
Thanks for those photos of the model and real Vasa. She was a beautiful ship.

Glad you had a great trip (the salt mine sounds fascinating), sorry to hear about the technical glitch on the wiring. Are you going to have to go back up once the parts get in, or were you able to fix it?

Good luck with getting your new modules done for the show.....please post pics of them.


Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: chester on September 23, 2010, 05:16:31 PM
Thank you for sharing your trip virtually with us Jacq. Good that there were only minor glitches and all went safely.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on September 23, 2010, 06:45:07 PM
I love old sailing ships as much or more than I do train stuff. To see a full size original? AMAZING! Thanks! -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on September 23, 2010, 09:52:43 PM
What an amazing ship. Hard to believe it's been underwater for 350 years. What caused it to sink so soon after launch?


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on September 24, 2010, 01:12:29 AM
What an amazing ship. Hard to believe it's been underwater for 350 years. What caused it to sink so soon after launch?


  Someone forgot to put the plug in !


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Frederic Testard on September 24, 2010, 01:43:51 AM
This was the first time Swedish marine layered so many rows of cannons on a ship, and they apparently underestimated the problem of weight balance this would cause, with the higher part of the ship too heavy. So despite additionnal ballast in the keel, the boat nearly capsized after a first gust of wind 20 minutes after the launch and a stronger gust made her capsize after less than one hour. About 50 men out of the 150 were killed.
If I remember correctly, the wreck was located in Stockholm bay in 1956 and the raising lasted for five years. The museum was then built around the ship.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on September 24, 2010, 01:51:59 AM
Nick, go stand in the corner. Or stay in the corner. Or find a less interesting corner. You know what I mean! -- ssuR


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on September 24, 2010, 12:14:00 PM
Nick, go stand in the corner. Or stay in the corner. Or find a less interesting corner. You know what I mean! -- ssuR



  Right oh , Boss .


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on September 24, 2010, 07:28:20 PM
Amazing. Proof that government incompetency has been around a long time.  ;)



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: JohnP on September 24, 2010, 08:21:33 PM
OK so maybe it's the beer but... the responses here made me think that a neat model would be to make a modern day warship but create it with all the filigree and jim-crackery that these old wooden ships had. Lots of etched brass maybe with designs in it, pewter or resin carved figures, etc.

They certainly went all out back in the day. Thanks for showing this Jacq.

John


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Frederic Testard on September 25, 2010, 02:47:01 AM
Amazing. Proof that government incompetency has been around a long time.  ;)
Well, Ray, to be fair, it seems to have been a desire of the king.
After the disaster, there was a trial where the responsibility of the man who had designed the ship was scrutinized, and to be fair again, the judges acknowledged that the constraints of the project (that have evolved during the construction) and the knowledge of the time made it difficult to prevent the disaster. In many other occurrences, you would have seen the builder condemned for faults due to the others, but not there.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: eTraxx on September 25, 2010, 06:13:28 AM
That was in large part due, I imagine, to the King Gustavus Adolphus and his innate decency. I also found the Vasa museum page. Pretty interesting. ... http://vasamuseet.se/en/The-Ship/


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Frederic Testard on September 25, 2010, 11:04:22 AM
I had forgotten the name of the king, but I think you're right, Ed.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on October 03, 2010, 04:11:11 AM
 
   Not much of interest, doing the wiring under the layout, together with all those necessary ( boring) items for an exhibition layout.
   valances with light, skirts, painting, presentation material to explain exhibit, etc,etc.

   I picked up a large amount of trees.  "Grove den" was so kind to make the trees so I could concentrate on all other items.
   When wiring is in place and point servo's working, I will finalise landscaping and detailing the mill.
    Photo's will follow  :D :D 

   Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Alan Rees on October 16, 2010, 09:46:20 AM
Jacq, When does the driver training commence.... I mean how do you drive a shay ?


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on October 17, 2010, 04:31:14 AM
   
  Alan,

  you are scheduled for Friday 19 Nov. after 18.00h.  ;)  Saturday and Sunday the public will judge your driving ability. ;D ;D
  Normally you take ( on this logging line ) the Lenz LH90 or one of the remote controlers, select the required loco number, check the right direction and slowly turn open the throttle. As shay's, climaxes and other geared locomitives  are slow speed machines, you should have no problems,  nor my bloodpressure.

 Jacq
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on October 17, 2010, 01:49:48 PM
 
  the interior of the mill   exercise in lighting color and intensity.

  (http://images110.fotki.com/v302/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_5053-vi.jpg)

  the boiler house.  Ash, sawdust, dirt etc still to be added. 


  (http://images116.fotki.com/v699/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_5050-vi.jpg)

  (http://images54.fotki.com/v460/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_5051-vi.jpg)


  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on October 18, 2010, 02:09:21 AM
Nice. Both modeling and photography. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on October 18, 2010, 05:48:16 AM
Jacq

Very nice great photo and the modeling is right on but you knew that already.

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on October 19, 2010, 05:19:56 AM

On the fly...... working on elecronics.  Servodecoders difficult to program despite NMRA compatibility.  Uhlenbrock servodecoders and Lenz control system.  I will program the servo settings with a friend's Uhlenbrocks central unit. Control can be done with the Lenz controlers. Not the type of work I prefer, but necessary.  >:( >:(

The boiler- and machine house will be finished this week.  Workshop and forrest on the far side next week. Leaves me 2 weeks to finish and weather rolling stock. Water and logs in logpond will be done last....experience shows that there is no discipline, flat area is too easily used as tool tray...

 (http://images116.fotki.com/v694/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_5056-vi.jpg)

 overall view without drapes.

(http://images116.fotki.com/v700/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_5058-vi.jpg)

mill module.  Background to be redone.

(http://images12.fotki.com/v68/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_5059-vi.jpg)

logdump.  Extra trees in place.  Logdump is remotely operating ( when servo is working as I want it  ::) )

(http://images107.fotki.com/v71/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_5060-vi.jpg)

shay and third truck tender of the climax needed additional weight to operate reliable. 

(http://images16.fotki.com/v316/photos/7/1437817/7290191/DSC_5061-vi.jpg)

Far end of the layout.  workshop will finally gets the roof finished. 


Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Alan Rees on October 19, 2010, 07:14:03 AM
Truly amazing, Jacq, I am very much looking forward to seeing this masterpiece.

Appropos operation: I notice there are 2 shays. I was wondering what kind of dispatching/signalling did they use on these logging systems ?


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on October 19, 2010, 07:17:12 PM
Looking good. Seems like a lot of progress has been achieved lately!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Malachi Constant on October 23, 2010, 07:28:02 PM
Jacq --

I feel like I've been given a special visit "behind the scenes" at the museum as the newest exhibit is prepared for public release.  There is so much to see and study within each of the many smaller scenes within the large exhibit.  Shaping up so very, very nicely!  Thanks for your on-going efforts to share and document your process and progress.

Cheers,
Dallas


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on October 27, 2010, 03:08:32 AM
Jacq,

Wonderful to see the modules all set together. Amazing to think of where this started and where you are now.  I wish you all the best at the show.  Remember to take pics!


Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on October 31, 2010, 03:51:58 PM

   the situation from last Thursday. 

   I will pick up the last 20 trees ( 12")  coming Saturday.  coming weekend final landscaping

   (http://images57.fotki.com/v283/photos/7/1437817/8275523/DSC_5081-vi.jpg)

   (http://images16.fotki.com/v316/photos/7/1437817/8275523/DSC_5082-vi.jpg)

   (http://images22.fotki.com/v838/photos/7/1437817/8275523/DSC_5083-vi.jpg)

   The logpond with floating logs, barkrests and the logslip is finished, the floating steam saw and sinker catamaran will be added later

   (http://images16.fotki.com/v316/photos/7/1437817/8275523/DSC_5084-vi.jpg)

   A shay by Bernard.  The crew has not been added yet, the paint has not dried enough yet. Woodpile, weight and decoder added, light will be done after the Warley show.

   (http://images58.fotki.com/v696/photos/7/1437817/8275523/DSC_5085-vi.jpg)

   The area in front of the workshop will house a number of donkeys. A scene of a sled under construction is presently in hand.

   Things still to be done :  paint and weather a large amount of disconnects, figures, putting all the electronic stuff in their final position in the cabinet.
                                     cut lumber on the output side of the mill and the roof of the machine house.

   
    Jacq
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on October 31, 2010, 05:33:17 PM
This is really looking good! And the trees look terrific.



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: BKLN on November 01, 2010, 06:59:43 AM
Those trees make a HUGE difference. Your modeling work and "visual story telling" is wonderful, but those beautiful trees tie it all together. More trees! More trees!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Chuck Doan on November 01, 2010, 08:05:53 AM
Looking good, Jacq. That Shay is nice! But don't let Marc see the DRGW boxcars!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: LeOn3 on November 02, 2010, 02:40:24 PM
Layout is looking good Jacq. New trees?  :D
When is Warley? Will send you a pm for a visit in one of these days. I have been started with the shed for the new layout.

Leon


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on November 02, 2010, 05:06:02 PM

    Leon,

    Warley is 20-21 November.  the 18th I will see Marcel Ackle and Alan Rees in Calais and in the afternoon we will visit the Pendon museum. 19 November we will built up.
   
    All electronics do function   ;D ;D, so I can finish the control cabinet tomorrow. 
    The layout is operated by 2 wireless and 1 fxed controller at the fiddle yard behind the layout for programming etc.
    The operators can stand between the public when running trains, set poins and operate the logdump. ( Marty, when back I'll post some photo's and sketches of the dump)
   

    Jacq
   
   
 
   


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Philip Smith on November 04, 2010, 06:27:12 PM
Jacq,

Always a pleasure seeing progress on this fine piece of work!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on November 12, 2010, 04:31:52 PM
The situation last sunday when german friends dropped in to see the progres. I have used some of their photo's to show how far it was last week.

  (http://images57.fotki.com/v80/photos/7/1437817/9239506/bild14-vi.jpg)

  inside the workshop.  All driving belts, boiler - and engine house will be finished later

  (http://images31.fotki.com/v1100/photos/7/1437817/9239506/bild10-vi.jpg)

  the workbench has been shimmed  ;D

  (http://images12.fotki.com/v68/photos/7/1437817/9239506/bild13-vi.jpg)

  Dave's tools have been used to the good advance.

  (http://images57.fotki.com/v81/photos/7/1437817/9239506/MumbyLumber2-vi.jpg)


  (http://images9.fotki.com/v212/photos/7/1437817/9239506/MumbyFun1-vi.jpg)

  this is NOT possible during public appearances.  :o

  (http://images57.fotki.com/v80/photos/7/1437817/9239506/MumbyLumber7-vi.jpg)

  (http://images17.fotki.com/v523/photos/7/1437817/9239506/bild04-vi.jpg)

  the car and log are now having a wet appearance..

   (http://images58.fotki.com/v696/photos/7/1437817/9239506/MumbyLumber9-vi.jpg)

   (http://images17.fotki.com/v1621/photos/7/1437817/9239506/MumbyLumber11-vi.jpg)

   The roofs of the boiler- and engine houses are temporary structures and will be replaced with properly framed roofs when the interior of the engine house is finished.

   Forum members visiting Warley are welcome, introduce yourselve and when still available, join in for a drink...and enjoy marcel's and my layout.

   stands no E11 and E12

   Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: NORCALLOGGER on November 12, 2010, 08:19:20 PM
Jacq,
Superbly detailed work!
Thank you for posting these pictures.
Rick


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on November 13, 2010, 12:19:13 AM
great work! So much detail to look for.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on November 13, 2010, 03:08:51 AM
Satisfactory. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Chuck Doan on November 15, 2010, 10:17:39 AM
Looking good, Jacq. Have fun at the show.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on November 15, 2010, 03:50:45 PM
Very nice! Wishing you a lot of fun and success at the show!

M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: JESTER on November 15, 2010, 05:10:49 PM
Wow!! This is amazing! Great job!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on November 15, 2010, 05:20:27 PM
    Thank you all for the encouraging words.
    Having fun will be no problem with Marcel, Alan and Nick in the crew of the combined stands ( E11 and E12 )  
    
    Thursday morning I will see Marcel and Alan in Calais and from there we will travel together to Birmingham via the Pendon museum.
    Friday afternoon we will built up and hope to sober next morning at the opening of the show..

    On the question or a deadline is a challenge,  yes and no.  Yes when the actions to be performed are known and a schedule can be made.
    No when problems or unexpected items turn up, which cannot be solved without some discisions.  Mostly these problems can be traced back to impatience, ignorance, not accepting that I understand what it is about or sheer fatigue.  
    There are of course several solutions  ;D ;D  using the lack of knowledge or understanding of the viewers to drop the usual detailing level  ::) or explain that the missing details will be finished later.... :-[.

   Success is for me a positive communication with interested members of the public..  
   I built the layout for myself, without any  predetermined purpose and having a intelligent discussion or seeing someone enjoying the layout makes my day. I normally do not volunteer explaining or pointing out things, it is much more fun to see people discovering things and start a conversation. If nothing is discovered bad luck, than they are not ready for it.

  There are still many things to be finished or in need of improvement. I am looking forward to work on these and think about the general perception.
  
  Jacq

  
    


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Damn Cranky on November 15, 2010, 07:21:46 PM
Jaw-dropping work.  Beautiful. :o


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: RoughboyModelworks on November 15, 2010, 10:46:53 PM
Very nicely done Jacq... it's been a treat and a privilege to watch this project over the past two+ years develop from concept state to exhibition ready. Best of luck with the debut showing and safe travels...

Paul


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on November 22, 2010, 12:53:08 PM
Warley , NEC , Birmingham , England .

  Quick Report .

   Show went very well , with a few teething problems but nothing of any great significance . The " Great Unwashed " were all suitably impressed with the layout and the working log unloader kept them interested for hours . One addition that was discussed is the installation of a small nozzle hidden in the log dump that sprays water on the unsuspecting public every time a log rolls off a disconnect . Should be hilarious for the operators .
 Did not win best in show but should have .
  Marcel and his layout were also there , which was the last time he will be showing it in public . He will be retiring it to his living room . He is working on a new layout . Looking  forward to seeing progress on that .

  I'm sure Jacq will post some decent photos when he gets back but for now here are a few crappy ones I took .

   Nick


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on November 22, 2010, 12:56:19 PM
A couple more .


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on November 22, 2010, 01:22:18 PM
The amount of detail in all those machines is amazing. The metal shavings around the lathe are a nice touch too.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on November 22, 2010, 01:23:40 PM
Nick, thank you for sharing your crappy photos. Given the circumstances and the fact that, had you not posted them, we would have seen NOTHING, they are darned good. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on November 22, 2010, 02:32:37 PM
Thanks for the happy snaps Nick, I'm sure there will be plenty more still to come.  I still look forward to seeing the further development of the layout.  Hope it was an enjoyable weekend.

The new layout thing by Marcel naturally got me a bit keen...

Cheers,
Dan


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on November 22, 2010, 03:38:32 PM
 
  Just returned from bringing a crewmember home. 
  Thanks Nick for all the help with the layout, your sense of humor and your small layout . Your presence and help added to an very memorable weekend.

  I will post photo's tomorrow, including comments and an impression of best in show   ;) .

   Marcel won the large scale award.  With my large H0 layout I received "the best in show" in 2006, so........
 

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: narrowgauger on November 22, 2010, 07:45:44 PM
Jacq

great stuff and (yes) some tough competition at the show.  Now looking forward to your 1:35 layout as the next major project.  Perhaps we should do something inter-active with a "branch line" to Australia.

By the way the shop forman at the mill should be fired for allowing the crew to leave all that swarf at the lathe.  dangerous working conditions.  you are going to have to stand in the corner for this breach of the OH&S rules.

having said all that, I agree your series has been a great inspiration to us all.  Hence the call for a sequel.

Hope you are still friends with Nick after 2 days at the show.

have fun, keep us inspired and above all stay cool

Bernard


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on November 22, 2010, 08:32:08 PM
Jacq,

After following this terrific thread from the beginning it finally makes it's first appearance.  Just an excellent job on the mill and machine shop.

Nick thanks for the pictures.

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on November 23, 2010, 05:45:47 AM
 here a serie overview photo's.

 (http://images57.fotki.com/v66/photos/7/1437817/9268748/DSC_5130-vi.jpg)

 an overal frontal impression after Nick and I figured out where each part had to go.

 (http://images107.fotki.com/v71/photos/7/1437817/9268748/DSC_5101-vi.jpg)

 endview of mill.  Live rolls main line and cut lumber to green chain to be finalised, together with adding a crew.  crew figures are in the process of modifications  :o  Now it is a bunch of loose limbs, heads and torso's. Maybe not such a wise decision  ::) ::) ::)  we'll see

 (http://images107.fotki.com/v70/photos/7/1437817/9268748/DSC_5128-vi.jpg)

 (http://images29.fotki.com/v333/photos/7/1437817/9268748/DSC_5122-vi.jpg)

 (http://images38.fotki.com/v1273/photos/7/1437817/9268748/DSC_5121-vi.jpg)

 (http://images35.fotki.com/v1168/photos/7/1437817/9268748/DSC_5120-vi.jpg)

  the crew members were so enthusistic about the working logdump, that the raced the shays and climaxes back to the storage yard in the back to reload as quick as possible.
  as the log recovery system was not finalised,  the following rule was used. When taken a beer from the crate, one had to go underneat the the layout to recover the dumped logs at least three times to prevent the increase of the all present beer bellies.

 (http://images58.fotki.com/v85/photos/7/1437817/9268748/DSC_5119-vi.jpg)

 (http://images31.fotki.com/v1040/photos/7/1437817/9268748/DSC_5118-vi.jpg)

 the donkey repair area

 (http://images33.fotki.com/v1116/photos/7/1437817/9268748/DSC_5115-vi.jpg)

 (http://images57.fotki.com/v81/photos/7/1437817/9268748/DSC_5116-vi.jpg)

 (http://images21.fotki.com/v832/photos/7/1437817/9268748/DSC_5102-vi.jpg)

 (http://images36.fotki.com/v1152/photos/7/1437817/9268748/DSC_5103-vi.jpg)

 (http://images17.fotki.com/v281/photos/7/1437817/9268748/DSC_5104-vi.jpg)

 (http://images19.fotki.com/v193/photos/7/1437817/9268748/DSC_5105-vi.jpg)

 (http://images36.fotki.com/v1183/photos/7/1437817/9268748/DSC_5106-vi.jpg)

 (http://images58.fotki.com/v85/photos/7/1437817/9268748/DSC_5107-vi.jpg)

 (http://images32.fotki.com/v1058/photos/7/1437817/9268748/DSC_5108-vi.jpg)

 (http://images40.fotki.com/v1261/photos/7/1437817/9268748/DSC_5109-vi.jpg)

 the chain in the hand of the logger can move under the logs on the disconnects and after tensioning, the log rolls into the pond and dissappears through a camouflaged balanced hatch into a collecting tray. between the permanent logs in the pond a methode is under investigation to create a "splash" effect when the logs hit the hatch. Possible a derivative of a toilet door squirter  ;D

 (http://images116.fotki.com/v707/photos/7/1437817/9268748/DSC_5110-vi.jpg)

 (http://images18.fotki.com/v329/photos/7/1437817/9268748/DSC_5117-vi.jpg)

 the unfinished workshop. I removed 2days before packing the boiler/machine room and smith's workshop as it was not to my liking.
 all belting, shifters and crew will be added soon.

 (http://images107.fotki.com/v84/photos/7/1437817/9268748/DSC_5114-vi.jpg)

 mill detail. I am looking for different leds to improve the light color in the mill.

 (http://images31.fotki.com/v1041/photos/7/1437817/9268748/DSC_5112-vi.jpg)

 (http://images34.fotki.com/v1150/photos/7/1437817/9268748/DSC_5113-vi.jpg)

 And than came sunday evening, packing and preparing for loading never went so fast.

 (http://images116.fotki.com/v697/photos/7/1437817/9268748/DSC_5148-vi.jpg)


  (http://images43.fotki.com/v1322/photos/7/1437817/9268748/DSC_5147-vi.jpg)

  Nick making a lumber load for the empty flatcars with " donated by the NEC" coffy stirrers


  part 2 tomorrow

  HERE the "Best in show" 

 (http://images58.fotki.com/v696/photos/7/1437817/9268748/DSC_5131-vi.jpg)

 (http://images51.fotki.com/v1561/photos/7/1437817/9268748/DSC_5132-vi.jpg)

 (http://images18.fotki.com/v25/photos/7/1437817/9268748/DSC_5133-vi.jpg)

 Jacq




Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on November 23, 2010, 06:53:25 AM

  a short video:   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOtS32Mpc5s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOtS32Mpc5s)



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: lucas gargoloff on November 23, 2010, 07:56:41 AM
Ahhhhh!! Jacq, what a piece of art!! I like it!!!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on November 23, 2010, 01:16:00 PM
Welcome home Jacq,
I really like the overall view shot...gives a great perpective of realistic space, and so much more believable in proportions to what I guess is the more typical portable layout presentation (ie cram in the details).  The long scene works well as a great presentation space also for some decent length logging trains.  The wall of trees comes up as quite imposing (actually reminds me a lot of the impact we were aiming for with our Dolly Varden effort), and the mill sits as a significant feature at the end.  The framed layout also comes up as a very neat finish (actually a discussion happening on another forum as to why this style of boxed diorama style display with the self contained roof and lighting isn't used more in the US, but more common in Europe, UK and Australia). 

Congratulations of meeting your deadline (almost!), and I await the further details to make to scene really come to life, completing the story of where, when, who and why...

Cheers,
Dan
PS: more pics from the rest of the exhibition are also most welcome ;)


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on November 23, 2010, 01:34:21 PM
Magnificent! The realism is incredible, very well done. I like the fact that there is a believable amount of space between features.


Quote
"crew figures are in the process of modifications    Now it is a bunch of loose limbs, heads and torso's."

Just add a little red paint and call it a tragic shop accident.   ;)





Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: BKLN on November 23, 2010, 01:35:49 PM
Sometimes I have a hard time with the toylike appearance of all "cute" logging or mining layouts. But this is a museum quality masterpiece. Very impressive!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on November 23, 2010, 01:51:33 PM
Ho-hum. Is that the best you can do, Jacq? Well, I suppose I will have to lower my standards and publish it anyway. Would you prefer a two-part or a three-part article? I suspect it will require three (about 60 pages) to provide sufficient embarrassment. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on November 25, 2010, 05:15:35 AM

  Panic in the shop.... :o 
  Cannot find the camara disk with the last 25 detail photo's of the layout in Warley ( + a large amount of family photo's  :-[ :'() .........I hope it is in the box with the donkeys or all small fine detail parts. Otherwise I have to take new ones when the layout is assembled again next week........rather upsetting.......

  (http://images52.fotki.com/v1551/photos/7/1437817/9268748/DSC_5146-vi.jpg)

  work meeting

  (http://images107.fotki.com/v70/photos/7/1437817/9268748/DSC_5128-vi.jpg)

  suggestions to improve the cut off roof line of the power house are welcome 

 
Quote
Just add a little red paint and call it a tragic shop accident.

  The amount of available saws might have played a role  ::)

  Marcel's and my layout were actually the only boxed in layouts ( together with The Hezelpoort by Loek Bronckhorst) 
  English layouts do have a boxed in appearance too, but the background is on nearly all too low, including the viewing height for the public.
  The reason is the operational requirements to reach couplings etc... A pity as beautiful models are spoiled by beer bellies, heads and hands.

 

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on November 25, 2010, 12:00:15 PM
Quote

  The reason is the operational requirements to reach couplings etc... A pity as beautiful models are spoiled by beer bellies, heads and hands.

 

  Jacq

 Whereas we had to try and squeeze our beer bellies around in front of the audience every time a Shay derailed or Alan missed the log dump with one of his logs ! Much more appealing ,

   Nick
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on November 25, 2010, 02:19:45 PM
Nick, I have provided a cot, appropriate plumbing, and a year's supply of food in the corner for you. Visiting day is Tuesday when you will be allowed a one hour conjugal visit from a chimpanzee wearing a thong bikini and a pretty blue ribbon. While this may seem rather harsh you have shown no remorse. If your attorneys wish to appeal, a trial date is available next week. Court is adjourned. -- ssuR


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Alan Rees on November 25, 2010, 04:23:47 PM
Having spent last weekend bent double, grovelling after those disappearing logs, the treatment from the Thai masseuse in my corner is providing some relief. Perhaps this great layout should be renamed "Pain in the Lumbar" ?


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on November 26, 2010, 03:09:45 AM
I don't know what you're whinging about , Alan , all I've got in my corner is a bloody great ex-shot putting Russian called Svetlana and she is providing no relief what so ever .

  I think I'm leaving here and rejoining the 0n30 conspiracy lot , at least they treat you properly there ,

   Nick


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: DaKra on November 26, 2010, 07:55:39 AM
Haven't commented before, but I've watched with admiration, beautiful work.  What I love about a model like this, besides the awesome display of artistry, craftsmanship and technical skill, is the "readability" of it.  I might approach the exhibit knowing nothing of logging in the steam era, but If I'm inclined to look beyond the eye candy, I will walk away a better educated person, thanks to your respect for the subject matter.     

As for the "best in show" ... I fear the plague is spreading.   :-X

Dave

   


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on November 26, 2010, 11:57:41 AM

  Alan, Nick,

  beside your antics under the layout recovering the dumped logs, I at least had a very good time. So stop the mumbling about "Mumby Lumber"  ;)
  To prevent more "lumbar" problems some changes will be carried out to make operating the layout easier for the poor backs and knees.

  After his struggling with the train controler symbols before the public, Thedoor's ego suffered another setback.
  He dislodged a council post when trying to back up on my driveway.

  The storage disk has not turned up  :'(  , so new photo's have to be made....

   
Quote
As for the "best in show" ... I fear the plague is spreading.
 
   It is already here....

   there is a discussion in another thread on the underlying motives of modeling, I can only say that I built from the heart and not from the head.
  Dave's statement
Quote
I might approach the exhibit knowing nothing of logging in the steam era, but If I'm inclined to look beyond the eye candy, I will walk away a better educated person, thanks to your respect for the subject matter.
is describing very well the process I went through myself  to  be able to built this layout. And one of the nicest compliments I received was " this looks better than the photographs on the forum"  And I do see plenty of room for improvements, there are still area's that have mysteries for me, that are not finished, but how is not clear to me, yet....

  Jacq

 



 

   

   


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on November 26, 2010, 02:09:24 PM
Jacq, if you want to make your photos make the layout look as good as it does in person and if you have Skype, send me a note about when we can talk and I will try to explain how to set up lights and homemade reflectors for photography so it looks as though you are shooting in sunlight (or moonlight). As you know, in photography, lighting and composition are everything.

If I were to shoot your layout for the articles we have in mind, I would expect to spend a long day and go home exhausted. You have the luxury of breaking that up into three or four shorter and enjoyable sessions and amazing yourself with some outstanding images. Those images will be as important to you as the models someday.

Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: JohnP on November 26, 2010, 08:28:29 PM
As for the "best in show" ... I fear the plague is spreading.   :-X
Dave   

I showed this thread to my wife. When I got to the "Best in Show" she cried "What a House of Horrors! That thing won?"

Jacq, the railway is beautiful. Your interpretation of American logging is quite on the spot. It used to be everyday life in many places, the forests they worked could be spectacular but were generally commonplace, and the loggers did what they needed to get the work done in as unremarkable a way as possible. Your modeling captures all that.

Let's see some nice big photos soon.

John


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: granitechops on November 29, 2010, 04:59:24 AM
Jacq, been dipping into this thread several times & am impressed. ( but not had time to read it all yet )

it is possible to model a simple token scene that leaves the mind concluding that there is a large commercial activity going on in the disrict
eg., small mill suggesting also larger more complex mills nearby.
but if one is not familiar with the particular industry portrayed, say because its not your scene, or you'r too young to even imagine such things ever existed, such would not leave much immpression.
But a model such as yours should draw the enquiring mind into how the machinery worked, belts, fast & loose pulleys, line drives, steam engines, boilers, fuel, even before looking at the progression of the wood thro the mill

Having worked in the 60s - 70s as a lorry driver in railway yards, commercial docksides, Naval dockyards, scrap yards, quarries, power stations etc. etc, I often look at model scenes & go, to myself, No, No , it did not look like that or it would not have worked if done that way.
 Now I am not a rivet counter, but they do have to look believable, no rivets where it would be impossible for anything to be attatched on the other side of it. and to me that applies to other things, not only rivets   ;D     
Although I dare say I have been guilty of similar things when I have been in a hurry, not had the information I wanted & just cracked on with the project in hand regardless   :-[   :D
my problem is I get impatient, but I am workling on it  ;D
Living in Devon England, I have never seen such a mill as you have portrayed first hand, but I feel I could have walked through it in real life, it is detailed, informative, inspirational, enjoyable, & reminds me how dangerous the industrial revolution really could be, if you did not keep your wits about you. Thanks for taking the time to share your progress with us, it does slow one up when working on such a project ( even if you do also get valuable feedback as you work )       
Thinking about your question about the roof line
    "suggestions to improve the cut off roof line of the power house are welcome"
would a section of roof just of rafters with the covering removed, Say fire damage, or just replacement maintenance, distract the eye from the shape?   
or was that not what you meant?


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on December 05, 2010, 01:13:20 PM
  My appologies for not posting any news after the return from Warley. 
  When tightening a screw by hand apparently some nerves were damaged as I lost any feeling in the pink and the ball of the thumb of my left hand.
  According to the neurologist, the pink and side of the hand will take some time but the feeling in the rest of the hand will return shortly. 
  As lefthander I feared for my modeling abilities...... :o :o

  Next week I'll get some help setting up the layout so photo's will follow a bit later than planned.

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on December 05, 2010, 01:41:12 PM
Yikes! Take good care of that hand!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on December 05, 2010, 03:05:24 PM
Looks like you'll be okay but don't take any chances! -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Frederic Testard on December 05, 2010, 03:11:23 PM
Take care, Jacq.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on December 12, 2010, 08:24:20 AM

  Little update ( also partly  published as an answer to Dan Pickard in his Gum Tree topic)

   with the daily physio excercises my thumb is slowly returning to it's normal abilities.
   I feel youg again as sucking on it gives lots of deja vu feelings.  ;D ;D ;D
  It is still a delicate balance and a new experience of living with the limitations.
  The pink will take much longer, if ever, to regain the sense of "fabric" touch again. Touching an object I sense, but do not feel the sort of material and
  surface status, like smooth, wet, warm, wood or steel, etc.... Typing with one hand was a bit slow and turned out a very good excersise in patience...

   Modeling is luckily possible again and last night I enjoyed working more than three hours on a new set of disconnects. I only experienced some problems with my new
   resistance soldering unit, which is being sorted out by the manufacturer. Very good service communication, but annoying as I want to finish my 16 ton PSC shay
   before the next show. I'll show progres when I can work on it again. I have re-gauged the wheels already to On30 together with machining the truck bolsters for the
   correct sideframe spacing.
  Tonight I get help setting up the landscape modules in the workshop so I can start finalising the next couple of weeks a lot of items for an exclusive serie of photographs for Russ.
  Progress photo's for the forum will not be forgotten.

  The good feeling for modeling is back, that is the greatest improvement.  ;D ;D ;D

   
  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on December 12, 2010, 03:43:33 PM
Good to hear that things are improving and you are able to model again. I look forward to your progress.

Are these the Echo Mtn. disconnects that you are rredoing the bolsters on?


M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on December 20, 2010, 03:19:51 PM

    Marc,

    the only change with Echo Mountain disconnects will be replacing the On3 wheelsets by FWM On30 wheelsets.

    The machined bolsters are part of the trucks for the PSC 16t 2cyl. Shay. The trucks are changed from On3 to On30.
    When controling the cylinder castings, I discovered a missalignment that makes it impossible to get the crankshaft in the three bearings.
    I have contacted PSC or a replacement is available.
   
    The layout is built up and after some unexpected repairs  :o >:( everything functions again.  ;D ;D

    As the PSC disconnects did not behave as expected, modifications have been carried out to make them roll, stay on the track and do not jump when unloading.
    The bearing springs were removed and the bearings with axles fixed in place with the car on a level piece of track. The height reduction also works in favor of the unloading stability.
    4 cars done, now the other 16. The FWM wheelsets are definitely an improvement.   In total there are now enough sets disconnects and other wagons to have some challenging shunting.

     (http://images28.fotki.com/v964/photos/7/1437817/9268748/DSC_5138-vi.jpg)

    more photo's will follow soon  :D :D 

   

    Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: lab-dad on December 20, 2010, 06:52:58 PM
I would enjoy seeing/hearing more about the Shay and the disconnects.
Congrats on the layout! Stunning comes to mind.
-Marty


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on December 20, 2010, 10:05:45 PM
I like that photo, being able to see the whole thing at once plus a 1:1 scale human for reference.  The mill is huge!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on December 28, 2010, 09:00:46 AM

  Marty,

  the shay is on hold due to the following :

  (http://images31.fotki.com/v1057/photos/7/1437817/9354230/DSC_5153-vi.jpg)

  (http://images107.fotki.com/v84/photos/7/1437817/9354230/DSC_5154-vi.jpg)

  (http://images58.fotki.com/v497/photos/7/1437817/9354230/DSC_5155-vi.jpg)

  the cilinders in the casting do not line up.  On the top this looks a minor problem, but the offset is such that the bearings on the bottom do not line up.  The misallignment is so large that filing is not possible.  The crankshaft appear to be cut very short on one side to allow for a proper cleaning and aligning.
 I contacted PSC for a replacement, but (as usual) no reply  my mail.

  the disconnects:

  (http://images23.fotki.com/v867/photos/7/1437817/9354230/DSC_5196-vi.jpg)

  the last of the 20 cars.......  axle fixures were made by a good friend to enable easy soldering.  These are nice cars but the castings needed a lot of attention.  The wheelsets were replaced with FWM On30 wheelsets. Advantage : no more short circuits due to singe wheel insulation. Disavantage: colour of wheels and weak adhering of the paint. 
 Another problem was the bearing box springs. Far too stiff so the axle allignment was determined by the exact soldering of the closing strip at the bottom. When unloading logs the wagons jumped the rails constantly.  :(  Solution : leave the springs out  :D  I inserted a small shim between the frame and bearing box, alligned all wheels with the car on level track and glass plate and glued everthing in place. Result: good rolling car and stable when unloading logs.  ;D ;D

 (http://images57.fotki.com/v80/photos/7/1437817/9354230/DSC_5197-vi.jpg)

 (http://images28.fotki.com/v1030/photos/7/1437817/9354230/DSC_5198-vi.jpg) 

 (http://images22.fotki.com/v519/photos/7/1437817/9354230/DSC_5199-vi.jpg)

 (http://images28.fotki.com/v1030/photos/7/1437817/9354230/DSC_5200-vi.jpg)

 the first effort with my resistance soldering unit. The unit suffered a technical breakdown and American Beauty is sending a replacement unit.

 (http://images23.fotki.com/v876/photos/7/1437817/9354230/DSC_5202-vi.jpg) 

 test fit of 6" x 2" deckplanking. Planks to be cleaned, treated with silverwood ready to be glued down after painting.



 The logdump:
 
 (http://images46.fotki.com/v1413/photos/7/1437817/9354230/DSC_5203-vi.jpg)

 unloading chain in rest position.

 (http://images46.fotki.com/v1413/photos/7/1437817/9354230/DSC_5204-vi.jpg)

 chain in unloading position

 (http://images112.fotki.com/v495/photos/7/1437817/9354230/DSC_5205-vi.jpg)

 log ready to be dumped

 (http://images30.fotki.com/v479/photos/7/1437817/9354230/DSC_5206-vi.jpg)

 log moving on car

 (http://images43.fotki.com/v504/photos/7/1437817/9354230/DSC_5207-vi.jpg)

 log rolling into the pond

 (http://images17.fotki.com/v62/photos/7/1437817/9354230/DSC_5208-vi.jpg)

 chain returning in rest position so next car can be moved in place.

 a readable drawing explaining the mechanism will follow.

 Jacq
   


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: lab-dad on December 28, 2010, 06:42:47 PM
excellent information!
Love the dumping sequence photos, the figure is perfect too!
Man do you have bad luck with stuff from the sates!
Thanks!
-Marty


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on December 28, 2010, 10:11:46 PM
Sorry to see you having so much bad luck....but I feel even worse for what am about to tell you......
The log car you assembled looks very strange..insofar as the construction.....I have no idea where the mfr got this car design from, but it is in several ways:

1. The bolster seems undersized compared to what is typically seen on these types of cars (this is where all the direct bearing weight occured on these, and they were typically larger in dimension.

2. There would typically be a beam that ran from the end sill, and centered on the coupler pocket, to the bolster, on both sides. There would be tie rods that ran the length of the car (through the bolster) from coupler pocket bolt to coupler pocket bolt (or if not directly from the pocket, then from a heavy steel plate that was mounted behind the pocket. These two things handled the tension and compression of the cars when in use.

3.  I have never seen the decking mounted inside the strap detail like that. Generally it extended to the outside of the side sills, nailing/fastening seems tenuous at best with your approach.....but I have seen a couple instances where there was a rabbet in the inside of the side sill to drop/set the decking into (typically on European cars), and photos where there appear to be "ledgers" on the inside of the side sills that set the decking down a bit from the top....this acted as a quasi tray, where the loose log chains and such could be laid when the cars were empty. (also have seen an example of where one car in a pair of disconnects had a wooden tray built on one end for this purpose.)


Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on December 29, 2010, 04:58:08 AM

   
Quote
Man do you have bad luck with stuff from the states!

     apperently. >:(       

    A large plus however, the communication and service of American Beauty is outstanding !!

    Marc, 
   
    the cars are advertised in the PSC catalogue no 5 ( page 50)  including a sketch showing how to apply 6"x 2" decking.
    The cars appear similar to the ones advertised by Keith Wiseman. 
    With my believe at that time, the models from these manufacturers are based on "originals" I bought a number of sets at the start of the logging project.

    The cars in use at the moment on the layout are by Model Works from New Zealand.
    They are easy to built ( glue or solder), have a good weight, track well and are conform On30 recommendation for couplers etc.
    The Echo Mountain sets are under construction. The brass casting quality is superior to PSC.
     
    Any further info for disconnects or correct skeletons is welcome

    Jacq
     
   

   


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Philip Smith on December 29, 2010, 11:35:39 AM
I'm experiencing a red x.... today and yesterday with the last set of photos...Hmmmm :-\

Philip


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on December 29, 2010, 12:30:57 PM
Jacq

Some great pictures of the layout.  Excellent work!!

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on December 29, 2010, 05:16:13 PM
Jacq,

IMO Keith Weisman doesn't know sh*t-from-shinola when it comes to logging. As far as I know he is merely a saleperson/mfr that buys defunct company molds and parts, and then sells, casts, or recasts them.


I will pull some reference material for you on the disconnects and post it.


M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: artizen on December 30, 2010, 02:12:30 AM
Something like this for logging loads?

http://www.buntbahn.de/modellbau/viewtopic.php?t=9749&start=10

Scroll down about two thirds for images.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on December 30, 2010, 01:50:18 PM

  Ian, 
  thanks for that On30 conspiracy or caricaturistic tip .  That has little to do with aiming for correct models.

  If had believed in the beginning some 2,5 years ago on another forum all the " expert" advice on sawmill construction, this layout would never have been created.

  For the logging rolling stock I believed the american modeling industry was offering "correct" material, but ala it is not to be.
  In that respect it is a pity that, for very valid reasons, the biggest reference site  "Steam in the Woods" dissappeared and copies of authentic plans for logging cars are scarce.
  Many manufacturers or builders hide behind the " build as you want as there are plenty of deviations" but few do offer models after real samples or with too many simplifications.   

  For me it means back to basics and start with an investigation into the construction of logging cars like disconnects and skeleton cars and built them myself like I did with most of the mill's machinery. Maybe the brass frames of the PSC disconnects are usable after extensive rework, some experiments will tell.
 The locomotives do pass my standards, even when repairs on all the B'mann loco's where needed on driveline parts.   The best investment in rolling material has been so far the Shay by Bernard.

 Marc,  I do have the Kemtron set with plans of logging cars. How good are these ?  Are pe. the Mc Leods Russel archbar trucks usable ?

 a Happy Newyear.

  Jacq
 
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: artizen on December 30, 2010, 04:51:12 PM
Sorry - normally the Buntbahn people are the most anal when it comes to detail even in narrow gauge.

Here are a few old photos of logging operations - the logs were carried on anything that came to hand (usually second hand) and range from old freezer chassis to normal flats to proper skeleton disconnects.

http://www.vannattabros.com/histlog23.html
http://www.vannattabros.com/histlog22.html
http://www.brian894x4.com/BradleyWoodardRailroad.html
http://www.oldoregonphotos.com/logging-roll-way-with-tracks-yard-and-steam-donkey-c-1898.html
http://www.oldoregonphotos.com/saldern-s-logging-road-13-1-2-percent-grade-c-1898.html
http://sierraloggingmuseum.org/logging-history/tuolumne-county-logging/early-1900s-logging-photos/

Enjoy!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on December 30, 2010, 08:38:20 PM
Jacq,

You are correct in assuming that sadly IMO 90% of the disconnects and skeletons on the market are a figment of someones imagination.....and not a very practical or realistic imagination at that.....but the rr guys buy them anyway....because they look cute, worn and wobbly....and they take zero skill or knowledge to put together. Yes there were numerous companies that built log cars and disconnects...and numerous variations or shop modifications...but they all followed some basic principles and concepts in car construction, load distribution, and function......none of which most of the cars on the market seem to do...and something their mfrs haven't a clue about.

I haven't looked at the Kemtron pack in at least 30 years, but from what I recall they were fairly accurate/correct, ...at least for the examples they measured/used for the drawings.

Sorry for the delay in getting the info.....it's all on a seperate external drive....need to dig out the pics and watermark them before posting.

Not sure about those specific Russel trucks for disconnects.....you need to check the wheelbase, and frame height....but it is possible that some of his might be usable/modifiable/adaptable for making plausible and realistic disconnects that are close enough to the prototypes......might be a bit worried about the plasic frames holding up and keeping their form, with the amount of loading/unloading operation the layout sees.  might want to do a few test ones first.

Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 01, 2011, 03:04:49 AM
The following posts are some that would be sim to the kind you are trying to build, and that would possibly be used in your scale/type of operation. There are larger higher capacity steel cars, but I don't feel that they are relevant to what you are building.

This initial set of postings are Russel cars (others will follow as I dig them out) but the design principles and construction methods were sim on many cars by other builders.

M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 01, 2011, 03:08:15 AM
M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 01, 2011, 03:11:13 AM
M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 01, 2011, 03:12:23 AM
M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 01, 2011, 03:12:56 AM
M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 01, 2011, 03:18:13 AM
Next 3 posts are some photos of real "surviving" disconnects (I did not take thes images...they came off the web a long time back, so unfortunately iido not remeber who took them)

M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 01, 2011, 03:20:49 AM
More of the same car:

M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 01, 2011, 03:21:49 AM
Las one of this car.

M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 01, 2011, 03:32:06 AM
These next 6 images are of a different surviving car (again I do not know who these images came from):

This car is en ex Polsen Lumber Co. car.


M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 01, 2011, 03:32:57 AM
M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 01, 2011, 03:33:52 AM
M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 01, 2011, 03:40:08 AM
These next three images are from an again different surviving disconnect. (I took these photos at the the 'Roots of Motive Power' logging museum in Willits, CA)

M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 01, 2011, 03:41:11 AM
M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 01, 2011, 03:41:56 AM
M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 01, 2011, 03:43:48 AM
More stuff and old photos to come.....but I think you can see in what I have posted so far, what I have been on my soap box about.

M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 01, 2011, 04:09:07 AM
These two images are show disconnects from the Benson Timber Co. in WA. (Nenson had numerous operations that used the wooden disconnects) Their Oak Point, WA operation is actually listed as using the Russel #44 pattern cars.

Note in the upper imaged how the cars on the trestle seem to have no decking other than one plank near the end.

Then note on the lower image...same model wooden disconnect..how the car is fully decked/planked.


M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 01, 2011, 04:14:21 AM
This set of disconnects I find interesting because it is the only time so far that I have seen the pedestals, rabbeted/recessed into the side frames. Photo is somewhere in Butte County, CA (No info on the operation or the car builder).

M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 01, 2011, 04:22:54 AM
Here are two Plan sheets from an old Al Armitage file, showing CSF&E disconnects (these were used for Redwood logging).

M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 01, 2011, 04:23:25 AM
M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 01, 2011, 04:26:00 AM
Here is another image of a benson operation and the disconnects (with decking).


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 01, 2011, 04:32:39 AM
These are Fort Bragg RR disconnects c.1905 (a Redwoodwood logging outfit). Photo is from of Kevin Bunker.

M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 01, 2011, 04:38:26 AM
Here's a nice image from the UofW collection.



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 01, 2011, 04:52:49 AM
Yet another style of surviving disconnect...though in pretty poor shape and missing the log bunk. No idea where this was from.

M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 01, 2011, 04:54:37 AM
Page from the St. Charles Car Co. catalog showing log cars and disconnects they mfg.

M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 01, 2011, 04:55:55 AM
Another likely Benson image.

M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 01, 2011, 04:58:54 AM
Hopefully all this useful info for you so far, ..... something to think about, and get your engineering mind  turning ;) ;D

M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 01, 2011, 05:05:38 AM
Just to confuse and throw something odd into the mix. ;D.... here are some very unique disconnects. Note how the springs are located under the log bunks, and the wheels use simple/basic roller bearings.


M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 01, 2011, 05:13:19 AM
Note that these appear to be very sim if not the same type of disconnect as the very poor surviving one I posted abovecondition .

M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 01, 2011, 05:18:27 AM
Here are some more wooden ones...these are from a Redwood logging operation near Arcata, CA

M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 01, 2011, 05:20:38 AM
Some more wooden ones from a Washington operation (probably Doug fir or Spruce).

M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 01, 2011, 05:25:39 AM
I have more images, many not scanned...and those that are, are either of the wrong types, too funky, redundant, or dont show wel] in the images.

Next I'll have to go through my catalogs to see if there is anything relevant. If so I will need to scan it first....but for now this should be good to start any discussion.....if not I have something that might help ;) ;D


M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on January 01, 2011, 06:32:46 AM
   Hè  Hè, rub it in, rub it in.......  but that kick woke me up  ;D ;D ;D

   I know you have a Russel catalogue.   :D   Does it shows decent/useable  details of # 44 type cars ?   And/or  20'- 22' skeletons ? 
   The Mc Leod Russel trucks have a wheelbase of 3'5" and 26" wheels  ( according to the Al Armitage drwgs) will be hard to fit ( courtesy Jerry )   


   I will make 2-3 cars with these trucks with 24"wheels and see how they survive the testing phase at home before they hit the exhibition misuse.
   The big advantage will be a standard height and width of the bunks for all cars in use in conjunction with the logbrow height and unloader.
   
   Experimenting with the PSC disconnect showed some possiblities. I'll post my rebuilt efforts.....

   Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 01, 2011, 07:13:10 AM
I'm a little confused....what do the McLeod trucks have to do with the Armitage drawings?...they are two completely different animals.

The Russel catalog only has "cuts" like those posted and some owner information. I have been able to pretty accurately extrapolate the complete car details and info based on these pages. The catalog does have skeletons as well.

I have other mfr catalogs that have more info, some include drwgs....but they may be the wrong type of disconnects.....I need to look.

There are back issues of Timber Times, and Tall Timber Short Lines that have disconnect drawings.......that will take a bit of digging(as there are a LOT of issues to check through) and I will have to scan and send you that direct....as it is not mine to post.  I don't know of they have any drws of the #44 Russel cars or any sim. 

I have a couple of larger blueprint drawings of log cars....but they are more along the lines of the Echo Mountan type .....and the drawings are too large to fit my scanners.

Look forward to what you come up with for the PSC disconnects.

M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Gordon Ferguson on January 01, 2011, 07:26:54 AM
Got to say Marc I know nothing about logging operations and in general its not and its not a rail industry I'm particularly interested in but the photographs you have posted are just wonderful to look at both in terms of atmosphere and the details they show.

You must have some collection .... thanks for taking the time to post


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: EZnKY on January 01, 2011, 09:57:24 AM
Here's a set of disconnects built by the St. Charles Car Company in St. Louis.  (Courtesy of http://www.youranswerplace.org/st-charles-car-company)

Not sure if it's relevant...


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on January 01, 2011, 10:01:38 AM
  
Quote
what do the McLeod trucks have to do with the Armitage drawings

   The Mc Leod trucks are the only ones I know of.  For the skeleton cars I was thinking of using these trucks with the correct wheelbase.

   If you have detailed information about disconnects / skeleton cars used in the area I am trying to model , fantastic.
  
   Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 01, 2011, 08:04:49 PM
I still dont see how the Al Armitage drawings I posted and the McLeod Russel trucks have anything in common....but anyway......

I have the following for you, and can mail them to you if you are interested:

Xerox copy of a really good 8-page article by Ken Schmelzer from  the Jul-Aug 1994 Tall Timber Shortlines magazine, called "Logging Technology: The Disconnected Log Truck" good information on the eveolution and varieties of disconnects. Has photos and pages of technical drawings for cetrain trucks.

Xerox copy of a 3-page article by Charles Brommer (CHB) on On3 Disconnects [from Timber Times magazine]

Xerox copy of a 5-page article by Charles Brommer on scratchbuilding an On3 PC&F (Pacific Car & Foundry) Mich. Cal type of skeleton log car. Includes photos, parts list, and some basic technical drawings. [from Timber Times magazine]

Xerox copies of two good articles by James Hauff, on building a pair of 1:20.3 scale CSF&E disconnects (those are the ones in the Armitage drawings I posted), and a tank car made from a set.

9 duplicate magazines of Tall Timber short lines (incl. the Oct-Dec. 1994 Issue which has a large article on various SC&F (Seattle Car & Foundry), WIW (Washiington Iron Works), PC&F (Pacific Car & foundry), including technical drawings and photos.

2 duplicate magazines of Timber Times.

I can  send you all this if you cover postage (probably about $30 due to weight and if I send it Flat Rate Priority w/ tracking.) ....let me know, and I can put it in the mail on Monday.

I also found some good info in my Seattle Car & Foundry catalog, and will post it as soon as I can scan it.

M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 01, 2011, 11:37:40 PM
Ok....to adress your question re. skeletons, If it were up to me I would use the Russel #2 type. (especially given the time period and the scale of the operation) These were very common cars throughout the US. There were other mfrs. such as PC&F (Pacific Car & Foundry) that made very sim cars that would be equally usable. 

The one big problem with the skeletons in On30 is the turning radius, as the inside of the wheels tend to hit the center sill...they would probably work fine for the curves you have on the viewing side of the modules...but not sure they could make your turn into and out of the staging area in back.

Flatcars would be another very typical mode of log transportation for the timeframe/operation....though you would need to modify your unluading system/mechanics.


First, here are the Russel # 2 cars:


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 01, 2011, 11:39:17 PM
These are slightly heavier Russel #24 cars that would work as well:


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 01, 2011, 11:40:05 PM
...as would these #26 cars.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 01, 2011, 11:44:09 PM
The following posts are three images of Russel #2 cars in use at Brookings Lumber & Box Co., in California.

Note that they have inserted stiffening poles/braces between the bunks. These could also be used for tieing extra binding chains to. They were inserted into the square holes in the bunks (see mfr image).


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 01, 2011, 11:44:54 PM
Underside view....


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 01, 2011, 11:45:50 PM
...and a detail/closer view.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 01, 2011, 11:56:08 PM
Note the image below. This is sim styyle of car like those being discussed...based on the region where it operated, it could be a Russel, or a Kilby, or it could just as well be from a smaller local company like the one shown in the advertisement.

Note that the car in the photo also has braces that run between the bunks...but on these cars they are square beams, which can be seen notched into the underside of the bunks at the ends.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 02, 2011, 12:02:11 AM
These cars manufactured by Climax Mfg. Co. (yes, the same company that made the locomotive) are again sim to those being discussed.....Climax cars however (as far as I know), were used primarily on the east coast and upper midwest, as they were the early developments of this style of car and used in the initial areas to be logged in the US.


I will post some sim. AC&F cars, as soon as I can get them scanned.


M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 02, 2011, 12:29:29 AM
Something to keep in mind when talking about wood disconnects and skeletons is that these cars were also often sold as steel parts kits only; meaning that all the hardware and wheels was shipped to the end user, and their company shops/carpenter cut the wood pieces and assembled them there based on the mfr. drawings/info. Thus there was the chance that the individual company shops might do minor changes/modifications to the cars to make them more tailored to their specific needs.

Other variations from an original mfrs design would/could occur when the cars were rebuilt in the co. shops after wrecks, or when parts gave out.  Logging companies when rebuilding cars might not necessarily go back to the original mfr. for replacement metal/steel parts...they might have their shops make them, or contract out with a local foundry to make castings........this also lead to small local/regional foundries making log car parts (Redding Iron Works, in Northern CA. is a good example of this that springs to mind.)...sometimes these parts might incorporate changes/improvements based on the customer or regional needs (or to avoid direct patent infringement.)

M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 02, 2011, 01:43:54 AM
Found this really cool pic in my files.

The image shows what appear to be Russel log cars stacked by the side of the track, while the loader loads the car being spotted by the locomotive. Once the car has been loaded, the locomotive and full car will back down, creating space for the loader to place another car on the track for loading. This will  then be repeated till all the cars by the side of the tracks have been loaded.  A wood boomed skidder can be seen on a spur behind the loader.



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on January 02, 2011, 02:12:52 PM
Cool pics!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Frederic Testard on January 02, 2011, 05:00:38 PM
Marc, this Norwood picture would certainly make the subject for an intriguing model scene but it might be hard to convince viewers the dio hasn't been simply earthquaked during the trip to the exhibition...


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on January 02, 2011, 05:29:45 PM

  Marc,
 
  one moment nothing, the next moment  too much.....  ::) ;D   That is great news

  yes please send the info, let me know postage cost and I'll transfer the amount.

  This info will keep me quiet and busy for a while...  ;D ;D  Fantastic....

  I did som  modifications on the brass parts of one set PSC disconnects.  The relevant metal parts are being made from styrene for testing.
  For the model parts I'll make a NS etch parts.   I'll keep this on hold untill I have your info.

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 02, 2011, 06:44:49 PM
Figured I better get this info posted before the coming work weeks kick in....otherwise I was not going to get it done. ::)  :)  Not sure other than the one mag, the others will be directly applicable...but I am pretty sure you will find them interesting reading.

The following 6 posts are images from the 1913 Seattle Car & Foundry catalog. (I will include the original high res. scans on a disk in the package)...there are many more trucks in the catalog, but I feel that these are the closest to what you are working with, and to the time period and scale of your operation.


M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 02, 2011, 06:48:30 PM
Hercules 70,000 lb. truck.

M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 02, 2011, 06:52:16 PM
Hercules 70,000 lb. High Truck.

I need to look at the kits, but I believe this truck is sim to the On30 truck that Backwoods Miniatures produces (which I believe are recasts/reconfiguration of the old Don Winter trucks, which were pretty highly regarded) The problem with the Backwoods truck is that it has that idiotic and ugly Kadee coupler box screwed to the underside of the center sill.

M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 02, 2011, 06:53:07 PM
Hercules Specs


M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 02, 2011, 06:54:12 PM
Snohomish truck.

M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 02, 2011, 06:54:55 PM
Snohomish Specs.

M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 02, 2011, 08:31:41 PM
Just for interest, This image from the catalog of the Kilby Car Co. in  Anniston Alabama  shows how companies built regionaly specialized cars/variants.

Again, sim design/concept to the Climax, Russel, ACF, etc....but different.


BTW. for those that are interested in old catalogs, of primarily Southern logging equipment, such as the catalog this image came from,(but other logging equipment catalogs as well) you can purchase CD versions from:

Tony Howe on his website here:
http://www.msrailroads.com/Catalog_index.htm (http://www.msrailroads.com/Catalog_index.htm)

M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on January 03, 2011, 03:12:57 AM

      Great stuff.  I can't wait for the mail to arrive.   ;)  ;D ;D

      On the model trucks : I kept mentioning Mc Leods as these are the only ones I know. If there are alternatives in other materials, please let me know.
      I like the McLeod trucks as they appear near to scale. For On30 matching wheelsets I'll go for the new FWM ones. Testing these under the brass disconnects at the moment.

      Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: gin sot on January 03, 2011, 03:08:56 PM
Does anybody know what the Kadee HO disconnects represent?  I'm presuming it's a west coast 1920's prototype, but don't know for sure.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Chuck Doan on January 03, 2011, 03:39:00 PM
Thanks for this info Marc, we appreciate the effort.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 03, 2011, 11:54:28 PM
Does anybody know what the Kadee HO disconnects represent?  I'm presuming it's a west coast 1920's prototype, but don't know for sure.


I cant say "exactly" what car it represents...but I can probably get pretty close. Not sure if they patterened it off a single prototype, by a specific mfr. (if I recal, it is a pretty darn good example, but lacks a good amount of specific detail, and is of course greatly hampered by the use of, and the need to install that idioptic Kadee coupler pocket).  I will have to pull the catalogs and look. Will post a pic when I do.

M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 04, 2011, 01:29:39 AM
Quote
Does anybody know what the Kadee HO disconnects represent?  I'm presuming it's a west coast 1920's prototype, but don't know for sure.

Here is one that I ran across that is sim to the Kadee inregards to sidframe and bolsters. The end strapping on this is different (the wood Snohomish version has starpping like the Kadee)...the bunk is also different....looks more like a bunk from another mfr (name escapes me at the moment...so the car could be based on one fromthat one). Note that though the image shows the brake wheel vertical, the description indicates that the car can be ordered with it on the side, like the Kadee model/version).


M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on January 04, 2011, 03:22:26 AM
I've never seen an exact duplicate of the Kadee disconnect. What if it's a composite of two or three designs? -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Junior on January 04, 2011, 03:50:09 AM
Marc, that´s a most impressive research by one of the best model builders. I´m glad I didn´t read it all before I built 35 of these in HOn3 for my logging line. Would most likely still be working on the first one.....just kidding! Fantastic module Jacques. By the way Jacques are there any pictures of your old layout that you sold to somebody here in Sweden?

Anders ;D


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 04, 2011, 04:31:47 AM
Anders,
Those are some really great looking Westside skeletons. Like the paint and weathering a lot. Did you scratchbuild those, or are they the Rio Grande kits?  Either way, great work.



Below are two more images showing Seattle Car & Foundry cars. Note the disconnect in the top image shows sim end strapping detail....what still doesn't match is the log bunk....however as you can se in the second image SC&F made this bunk with stakes and bunk pivot stop (vertical piece at center of bunk) which almost exactly matches the Kadee car....it is also safe to say that this bunk would have been available on the disconnect, making SC&F a fair match for the Kadee prototype/inspiration....however there were other companies that built similar trucks, and variants...so it could be one of those.  And as I dont know all the designs and variants by heart, its tough to tell exactly without checking all relevant mfr catalogs from the time (which I unfortunately don't have :))..... I also don't know what exact liberties Kadee took in their design, and in order to get it to work in HO (in regards to coupler height and mounting requirements)...I am hard pressed to be sure ::) :-\. ...but I am sure there is someone out there in model RR land that knows what inspired the Kadee design  ;D.

M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 04, 2011, 04:32:38 AM
...and here the log bunk image.

M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Junior on January 04, 2011, 04:42:55 AM
Thanks Marc, yes they are RGM kits but enhanced with the typical metal straps, right size air hoses from PSCO and some other bits and pieces.

Anders ;D


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Junior on January 06, 2011, 02:50:27 AM
Jacques, thanks for having Harry get in touch with me. Fantastic layout!

Anders ;D


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on January 11, 2011, 01:30:14 PM

   Today the parcel from Marc with info on disconnects and skeletons arrived   ;D ;D
   Leafing through made one thing clear, a large variety that easily can create confusion.  :o ::)   Fantastic information in  these Tall Timber short lines magazines. Is this magazine still available ? 

   I have found 2 disconnect samples I can use with the PSC cars. 
   For the skeletons I have the following question.

  As I have a large amount of Kadee On30 24" wheelsets I am looking for matching truck frames.  These wheelsets have 26mm pinpoint axles. The McLeods trucks are for straight ended axles and On3 axle length.  FWM makes beautiful matching wheel sets. I am using these sets with succes under the PSC cars.

  Who makes matching 4'0" trucks for 26mm pinpoint axles ?   
  I have a number of 3'0" trucks from BVM and tried the 24" wheel. good fit and great rolling due to the nylon bearings but no room for inside breakes anymore.
  They look chunky and "cute"  but they appear too small for  20'0" - 24'0" cars.

  I found Ian Lindsay carries matching trucks but he has not replied on my mails. 
  Any other manufacturer ? 

  For the metal hardware I am struggling with CAD to prepare a negative for nickle silver etched parts based on the selected type of car.

  I noticed on many samples of earlier cars a type of "brake platform" on the brake wheel side. This could be very usable to disguise the wheel clearance cut out for the smaller curves.
  Were the platforms common ? 

  Jacq

 
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 12, 2011, 04:34:40 AM
Jacq,

If I am correct in visualizing what you are are talking about, you may need to scratch something. I had to do this for my 10-ton cane car.  I used the sidframes from  On3 36" wheel base trucks from Grandt line, the bolster from a McLeod On30 truck, and the brake hangers from a Grandt line 48" wheel-base ON3 truck. The Grant trucks are Delrin...a real PIA to paint...but possible of the frames are properly prepped and I used a Resin primer from Gunze. Though I think you would still need to slightly blunt the needlepoint axle ends for them to work in the Grandt frames.

Here is a pic of mine pre paint....(on the cane car only one truck had brakes)

(http://www.rbadesign.net/mworks/CaneCar/MR_CaneCar_082808.jpg)

...and with wheels and primer (these wheels are 24" NWSL wheels.....because FMW did not have theirs on the market yet.)

(http://www.rbadesign.net/mworks/CaneCar/MR_CaneCar090308.jpg)

With the level of, and attention to, detail that you are doing, I would just get rid of the Kadee wheels and only use FMW...the latter are prototypically correct and far better for cars such as these, where you will see the wheels all the time.

Marc





Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 12, 2011, 05:04:48 AM
Forgot to answer your other question.....  "Tall Timber Shortlines" is no longer being published, but "Timber Times" is still active http://www.timbertimes.com/ (http://www.timbertimes.com/)

I believe you can still buy some select limited back issues of "Tal Timber Shortlines" from the publisher http://www.osorail.com/ (http://www.osorail.com/)

....here is a direct link to the back issues page: http://shop.osorail.com/category.sc;jsessionid=5F4D92039BD267ADAFF9918DF1CE7FD9.qscstrfrnt06?categoryId=5 (http://shop.osorail.com/category.sc;jsessionid=5F4D92039BD267ADAFF9918DF1CE7FD9.qscstrfrnt06?categoryId=5)
...Note though that most all appear to be marked as "Photocopy" only.

Otherwise back issues of both occasionally apper on Ebay, and Amazon.


Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Frederic Testard on January 12, 2011, 02:00:16 PM
Jacq and Marc
There are some back issues of Tall Timber & Shortlines available page 9 of this link : http://railpub.com/Catalogs/fullpricelist.pdf


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on January 13, 2011, 12:33:54 AM
Thanks Frederic

I am actualy fortunate enough to have almost all the issues of both.  :)


M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Malachi Constant on January 13, 2011, 08:52:05 PM
As I have a large amount of Kadee On30 24" wheelsets I am looking for matching truck frames.  These wheelsets have 26mm pinpoint axles. The McLeods trucks are for straight ended axles and On3 axle length.  FWM makes beautiful matching wheel sets. I am using these sets with succes under the PSC cars.

Who makes matching 4'0" trucks for 26mm pinpoint axles ? 

Jacq --

The McLeod frames have nice detail and I've done some experimentation with an eye toward using those on some (future) 1/35 scale stuff.  Not too thrilled with the rolling characteristics of the straight axles, so I re-did one with bearings to fit needle point axles.  Don't remember the specifics now, but think I used the "standard" Romford bearings shown here:

http://ngtrains.com/Pages/Wheels_Trucks/wheels.htm

Will have to dig out that truck and see if I used those or some of the bearings that I put in the BVM trucks, really can't remember now.

Here's a conversion of a Grandt Line On3 dump car to On30 using those Romford bearings:
http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=28149

If you use some of Marc's suggestions and add some bearings, you should be able to produce trucks that look good AND roll well ...

Those Romford bearings appear to be the same or extremely similar to the bearings supplied with Chivers On30 trucks.  If you use the bearings from the BVM trucks for a conversion, just send me an email or PM and I can send you some replacements.

EDIT:  I located that 1/35 car that had the modified trucks (still unpainted)  :-\ ... those were San Juan Car Co. #201-30 trucks, which I modified with the BVM nylon bearings.  Looks like I drilled out the journals to match the body of the bearing, then countersunk a bit until the head of the bearing sat in the proper place for the 26mm Jay-Bee wheels used here.

First photo shows the truck in question with the BVM nylon bearings ... I think it would be EASIER to use the Romford bearings.  Second photo shows one of the Romford bearings over an unmodified San Juan side frame.  Since the axle hole is smaller than the bearing (good news!) ... it would be a simple matter to drill out the hole to the desired depth and set the bearing.

Cheers,
Dallas


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on January 14, 2011, 01:15:40 PM

    Dallas,

   
Quote
Not too thrilled with the rolling characteristics of the straight axles
   that is my experience too.  Here the results of my experiments and observations.
     
    As soon as the bearings in the "compensating" frames move, the straight axles bind. With pinpoint axles this does not happen.
    I experimented with a McLeod trucks and FWM axles.  With one truck I fixed the frames in relation to the bolster with the wheels lined out on a piece of track glued to a glass plate
    As the axle ends remain in position relative to one another, this truck rolls very good on the layout. The truck built with flexible sideframes did not roll as good.
   Handlaid - and ready made flex track do work and this has an influence on rolling- and tracking ability  I discovered. BMV trucks with nylon bearings and pinpoint axles do roll very well, especially when assembled and alligned carefully so all 4 wheels are on the track. BMV trucks with Romford bearings do roll better, especially with a needle point "Dr Tillig" grease applied. This has been tested with BMV wheelsets, Kadee wheelsets and RP25 profiled Roco H0 wheelsets in BMV-, fixed McLeods- and H0 trucks. 
    Tomorrow I'll modify 2 FWM , 2 PSC and 2 Echo Mountain wheelsets step by step to see how far the axle ends need to change to give satisfactory rolling characteristics in pinpoint bearings.

   My goal is the appearance and detailing of the truck shown by Marc with the rolling ability of the pinpoint bearings.

  I am also leaning towards 100% change over to link & pin couples for all the logging cars as they run in sets with loco and/or consist changes in the fiddleyard in the back.
  Only those cars that will be used for shunting around the workshop automatic knuckle couplings will be used.

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on January 25, 2011, 04:45:12 AM

    The Echo Mountain axles are being reset to On30 by a good friend. I'll have them back Thursday.
    The EM sideframes are tapered with a small chamfer so a small  vertical or horizontal missalignment is catered for.  The axles have also a little play in the holes. The diameter of the axles is a bit  smaller than the FWM or PSC ones, which do have the same diameter.
    I tapered the bearing holes in a Mc Leod truck but the axles were still not free running on a piece of uneven track. I rounded of the sharp edges on a couple of axles. This improved the rolling but I have my doubt on longevity as the carrying surface has become very small.
   The BMV trucks with nylon bearings and pinpointed axles do run very well. Trucks with brass bearings and pinpointed axles are better. The negative part is the tolerance on the bearing spacing. Too large and the axle has a tendancy to occilate and too small has an effect on the rolling, albeit small.
   This might be a reason why nearly all european model trucks have pinpointed axles.

   Replacement link and pin couplers from FMW are on the way.  Jerry's references and a test with the sets I had made the choice easy. Only at the points were consist will be split claw couplings will be used.

  The information on logging cars I received from Marc has been digested and I have started with drawings and jigs for nr 2 Russel disconnects.
  The area where wheels and mainframe interfere are my main worry. Possibly Russel cars with brake platforms are an answer ?   

  ( photo's will follow after returning home )

  Jacq

   
   
   


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on February 02, 2011, 04:21:15 AM

   
    slowly the joy in modeling is returning. The use of my thumb is improving, I can squeeze reliably some tweezers again.  :) :)
 
    Replacement parts for the PSC shay have arrived.  American Beauty shipped a new RSU.  So I can work on the Shay and the O&K mallet again.
    Received from a friend in Australia a number of 4'0" trucks.
   
    The project is slowly approaching it's final stage.  Smaller details and correct rolling stock are in hand, so thoughts for a new project are popping up mre and more.
    I will start a separate topic on that soon.

    (http://images57.fotki.com/v512/photos/7/1437817/7592253/DSC_5236-vi.jpg)

     Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on February 02, 2011, 02:42:46 PM
I'm very glad you are feeling better and your hand is healing. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on February 03, 2011, 12:36:45 AM
I'm very glad you are feeling better and your hand is healing. -- Russ

Ditto that!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on February 03, 2011, 07:19:40 AM
Jacq

Glad to hear that your feeling better.  And that your starting to think a new project.

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on February 10, 2011, 06:21:37 AM

   Here some details of the final stages.  All materials to built a serie skeletons and disconnects are in and some tests are done to compare rolling ability of trucks with pinpoint - and straight ended axles on a small inclined plane with a 18" and 24" radii. I forgot to take photo's  :-[ but when back from the OntraxS 2011 exhibition I'll do the test again for photo's.
  It is now a matter of discipline to do the last jobs, like finishing the cars, some items I pushed forward like an operating waterspout, handrailings on a couple of stairs and finishing of figures.

  (http://images34.fotki.com/v1121/photos/7/1437817/8275523/DSC_5249-vi.jpg)

  Climaxes at the watertower

  (http://images107.fotki.com/v70/photos/7/1437817/8275523/DSC_5247-vi.jpg)

  Shay in for small repair

  (http://images21.fotki.com/v515/photos/7/1437817/8275523/DSC_5248-vi.jpg)

  test with figures around donkey being prepared for the woods.

  (http://images114.fotki.com/v145/photos/7/1437817/8275523/DSC_5250-vi.jpg)

  test with figure  :D

  (http://images38.fotki.com/v1215/photos/7/1437817/8275523/DSC_5246-vi.jpg)

  Something in the last photo is bothering me, the drillpress appears not standing straight, but measurements show otherwise.

  Now that the weather is improving, the layout can be set up outside, especially for photography.  ;D ;D

 Jacq


  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on February 10, 2011, 07:31:13 AM
Jacq

Looks great.  Some nice pictures, the machine shop is looking good love the planer.


Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Junior on February 10, 2011, 07:44:16 AM
Some beautiful work there Jacques. Are those the Westside figures made after some of the real employees?

Anders ???


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on February 10, 2011, 01:29:22 PM
In the last photo, of the machine shop interior, everything seems to be leaning to the right, not just the drill press. Maybe it is an illusion from your camera lens? -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Chuck Doan on February 10, 2011, 02:40:01 PM
Those scene shots look great Jacq! Maybe it’s the topmost horizontal shaft that is off? Or maybe the tilted counterweight is creating the illusion.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on February 10, 2011, 03:22:46 PM
   
   Thanks for the solutions.  The photo is tilted 2,5 degr.  ::)   I corrected this on the photo on my pc. Chuck's point of the counter weight reinforces a slight missalignment of the driveshaft from the column to the driil head. When viewing normally it is hardly visible, but annoying like a little nick in a windscreen. When you become aware, it is hard to keep your eyes from it.   ;)

 Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Jerry Kitts on February 10, 2011, 03:26:32 PM
Jacg,

I am most impressed with your work. Impressed enough to stop reading and actually write some words. The three truck Climax is impressive, I want to do one for myself. I will order a second Climax this afternoon, I already have a spare Climax truck.

Looks like you modified our 20 flat cars with wood decks, I have done the same thing myself. Or you made a close copy, does not matter they too look good.

As to your problem with the MacLeod trucks and our wheels with the shoulder axles binding. We are cutting the fix as I type. My son is cutting a Celcon bearing for our wheels which will require nothing more than using a pin vise and drill to open up the MacLeod axle hole to do a light press fit with our new bearing. The inside of the bearing is conical allowing for the the axle to pivot a bit. This should allow for rough track without sticking, the Celcon will allow the the truck to roll better. It will also do away with any need for lubrication and stop the squeak of metal axles on styrene bearing surface.

I see all our L&P couplers are going to a good home,

Keep up the good work.

Jerry Kitts  javascript:void(0);


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on February 21, 2011, 09:52:18 AM

  Jerry,

  the problem with the axles binding when the frames move slightly is not only occuruing with the McLeod's trucks. I noticed the same and worse with the Echo Mountain and PSC disconnects and a couple of brass trucks and straight ended axles. Good to read you are adding celon bearings to the styrene truck frames. Will also improve the loadbearing and endurance of the trucks, especially under load.
 Two flat cars are FMW and 2 are Morgan Hill kits with McLeod's trucks. I fixed the frames to the bolster, tapered the holes and rounded off the axles ends. Rolling is better but not as good as the pinpoint axles in brass (Romford) bearings.

 The layout is finished except for the workshop annexe with the boiler and a steam engine. Waiting for some parts to be able to finish the belt drive part.  At the other end I have to finish a Hill steam log turner, the large cut off saw and the filer's room. The watertank spout is moving manually, linking up the servo will be done tonight, but for the programing.........I hope my son will some time tomorrow evening. I am preparing details and exclusive photo's for Russ. Photo's for the galery and those taken during shows will be added here.
Items related to the logging project I will keep posting here. For the new project I will start a separate topic.

 Rolling stock I build at leasure  ;D ;D  A nice PSC 2cyl. shay, the O&K mallet and a number of skeleton cars.  It is completely different than landscape and structures.

 Wednesday evening packing for the exhibition OntraxS 2011 in the National Railway Museum in Utrecht. Some very, very good layouts will be presented.  Two weeks later Rail 2011 in Houten. This is also for 3 days. These will be the first public appearances on the continent. There are already invitations...

 My hand is doing very wel after some alternative treatment in conjunction with physio. According to the specialist the only solution would be an operation to reposition the nerve. No guarantee of success.  ???
 My motivation and especially the pleasure in doing things have returned.

 Jacq


 



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on February 21, 2011, 01:56:07 PM
So you are "keeping your hand in this project", n'est-ce pas? --ssuR


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on March 01, 2011, 05:28:51 AM

  The exhibition was a very rewarding but extremely tiring exercise..... The organisation must have used shrunken measurement tape when marking the stand as there was no room left for a table or chairs.  Standing from 8.00 in the morning till 17.00 at the show  (+ at the bar in the hotel till late at night) for 3 days was exhaustive and my legs started protesting the last day.
  I did not get a change to take photo's  >:( >:(  as people kept talking and talking to me.

 The layout was one vote short for best in show, which was won by a, for the public more understandable, fairytale / malcolm furlow type layout.  A well known occurance.

  For Jerry  ;D  the link and pins performed very very wel.  An inexperienced operator broke a link when trying to clear a derailment.  The max load on the pin was 20 white metal loaded disconnects.
 
 Jacq
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on March 01, 2011, 09:31:01 AM

  Just received this overview from a friend

  http://www.hetgroterdamproject.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=694:ontraxs-2011&catid=81:diversen&Itemid=137 (http://www.hetgroterdamproject.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=694:ontraxs-2011&catid=81:diversen&Itemid=137)

  at the bottom of page 3 there is a small impression.

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: pwranta193 on March 01, 2011, 10:36:08 AM
I spend way too much time going bak and forth through this thread.  Jaqc, sadly much of the work spent on the rail accuracies are lost on my ignorance of the topic, but the mill operation in this is one of my all time favorites.  While I think everyone has expressed their particular favorites - the shots down the length of the mill and the little interior details really make this project sing.

I am the first of four generations in my family not to go into the wood business for life (did a short stint - but spent a career in the Army), but have been travelling around to mill sites since I was a toddler (my Grandfather managed a mill in Northern California when i was born), and then in subsequent years was dragged around by my dad and with my brothers during visits to friends running small mills all over Oregon or Washington after we moved back north.  My grampa and his brothers were some of the original partners in the old PenPly mill in Port Angeles, Washington back in the forties - and they all grew up in the woods and mills around Aberdeen/Hoquiam/Cosmopolis, Washington.  The wigwam burner was pretty much a fixture of my youth.  Sooo - while I wax nostalgic here, I guess what I'm saying is that your mill operation is one of the very few (along with Chuck's) that really give me the sense of place - and of that other time.  The number of places that I have been to where the sheer organized chaos of gear and function always amazed me, and I think it is what draws me to this project. 

Okay - enough genuflecting  ;D 
Off your laurels, sir! What is the plan for the 1:35th scale follow up project - and have you started that post yet?

Paul


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on March 01, 2011, 03:26:12 PM
I had only a moment to look through the first and third pages. (The photos of your layout are rather poor.) From what I could tell at first glance your modeling is more realistic than that of most others and, overall, it seems to have more detail. To my eye it is superior but perhaps the choice of an American prototype was less appealing to a European audience than something more familiar.

More thoughts later. Scarlett and I have to visit her parents now ... a couple of miles from Marc's house.

Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on March 01, 2011, 04:35:25 PM
Hi Jacq,
Unfortunate with the miss on the B.O.S label, but often seems the problem with the public voting system, with that apparent lack of understanding and apprecation for what it is they are actually looking at.  I will say though, you have the joy of getting to exhibit in some pretty good/appropriate venues for the shows (apart from the lack of seating space for the tired exhibitors feet!).  This one, and that other industrial complex you were in a while back are great settings for such an event.  The standard of the layouts also in general seem to be of a very presentable standard.  I know this is just judged from the few photos seen on the web, but compared to some other show reports I have seen (and been too locally), there are usually a good number of layouts I could walk straight past.  From the images of that show, I think I would atleast stop for a look at most of those layouts.

Dan


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on March 02, 2011, 03:24:15 AM
I have now looked pretty quickly at all four pages of photos. Perhaps the photos themselves explain part of the story: Some layouts, especially those with a lot of nice foliage or scenery, had more photos. One diorama of a village with a lot of vertical scenery we have seen on this forum before; it's not bad. I have no idea who won.

More of the photos showed your interior detail than your scenery, Jacq. Perhaps, if you were to dress up the scenery, you would earn more points with those who do not seem to appreciate the exquisite craftsmanship of your structures and interior detail.

One other thing might help the presentation: Dramatic lighting. Nobody else seems to have it.

You can't teach an idiot to appreciate quality; you must appeal to his limited taste and your craftsmanship and detail become the icing on the cake. Don't forget: Chuck Doan has walked away from some contests without so much as an honorable mention!

Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Frank Forsten on March 05, 2011, 11:11:17 AM
Unfortunate with the miss on the B.O.S label, but often seems the problem with the public voting system, with that apparent lack of understanding and apprecation for what it is they are actually looking at.

You can't teach an idiot to appreciate quality; you must appeal to his limited taste..

Gentlemen, the On Traxs event was a model railroad exhibition and not a finescale modelling contest. With all due respect to the phantastic master craftmanship gathered in this forum, there is more to a layout than finescale. I agree that no other layout came close to Jacq's regarding finescale engineering and level of prototypical details. But the audience took the liberty to look at the layouts as a whole thing, not just the sum of its parts. So landscape views and perspectives become as important as details or finish (weathering). I wouldn't call that as idotic or lack of understanding. Besides, at a crowded exhibition, getting close enough to the detail spots (e.g. the saw mill and the engine shed) is sometimes impossible.

The layout was one vote short for best in show, which was won by a, for the public more understandable, fairytale / malcolm furlow type layout.

My congratulations Jacq! With several thousands of visitors, one vote is very short. This is a very good result as this was a family event, not a specialists meeting. So the audience can't have been that bad, voting Jacq's mill layout as a second winner!

Acctually I like the winner layout too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0UeZOPKVLg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0UeZOPKVLg). It is a nice piece of model railroad. I have to admit I have a weak spot for disneyish layouts ;-)

Kind regards, Frank


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on March 05, 2011, 03:03:08 PM
Frank has put this exhibition into context.

While I always have taken a dim view of the public's taste (or lack of taste) Frank's comments and link should teach us an important lesson: Pick Your Battles!

Still, if I brought a jazz band to a rock concert and became the second most popular group I would feel I had achieved an overwhelming success.

Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on March 05, 2011, 03:52:28 PM
Quote
if I brought a jazz band to a rock concert and became the second most popular group I would feel I had achieved an overwhelming success.

 That is what I feel.  ;D ;D
 I am very proud on the succesful introduction of this technical orientated layout. I was surprised by the enormous interest. I feel that I achieved one of my goals when a visitor remarked that he now understands the manufacturing process from log to planks.

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Malachi Constant on March 05, 2011, 10:37:11 PM
Exactly!  The winning layout had tremendous "entertainment" value, and, considering the audience, the fact that your layout lost by only one point shows a remarkable appreciation for the fine work that you've done!  -- Dallas


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on March 09, 2011, 03:56:07 PM
   Cancelled my participation to a 3-day exhibition due to a severe flu.  >:(     I hope this will end my run of bad luck.
   
   I have started with studying all the details for the skeleton cars and came across following item.

   Has it been common practice to have one truck with brakes and the other without ? 

   Which MacLeod type truck is best suited ?   T3 or T12  together with the excelent FWM wheelsets ?

   I will use link and pin ( FWM ) as they performed very well on OntraxS where one link had to be replaced.

   Jacq
     


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on March 10, 2011, 03:04:21 AM
Anything by FMW (Foothill Model Works) is superb and beyond comparison. Jerry and Scott Kitts never release anything unless it seriously exceeds the competition. So those of you wondering about their link-pin couplers might want to check out their other offerings, too. And although Jerry is a longtime friend he dropped his ad back in the '90s so my lavish praise is genuine. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on March 10, 2011, 04:49:14 AM

 I support Russ's oppinion for 100%.  There has been a good mail exchange on rolling ability of trucks and I will not be surprised if in a not too long future FWM will come with improvements for some of the present complaints.
 
 FMW standard link and pin has been modified to fit the BM disconnects.  These are heavy white metal cars and a total of 16 cars ( 8 sets) are fully connected and connected via a drawbar and pin to one of the locomotives. For 3 days these cars rolled on and off loaded with scale 8'0" x 17'6" logs to the logdump where these logs were unloaded.  During a small mishap one link got deformed beyond repair and was replaced.
As most operators are used to Kadee or hook couplers there is a learning curve where abuse is high.
I was surprised that the damage was only one link and 4 lost pins.  ;D ;D 

Jacq







Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on March 14, 2011, 10:49:25 AM

   Back to my excercises with disconnects and skeletons.

   Marc send me 2 sets of Echo Mountain disconnects.  I regauged the wheelsets and face the following problem.
   The longitudinal timbers ( in brass) are now wider than the inside distance between the back of the wheels. Grinding the timbers to fit between the wheels is no possiblity as the timber grain has dissappeared after grinding. So I started replacing all brass parts representing wood with real wood. photo's will follow later, the camera returned from a Nikon investigation as there were some mirror issues. Very good service. :) :)

 Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on March 18, 2011, 07:13:03 AM

 Echo Mountain disconnects.

 (http://images107.fotki.com/v71/photos/7/1437817/9591049/DSC_5292-vi.jpg)

 sideframes were drilled out and tapered for easy rolling wheelsets.
 due to the filigraine details, allignment of assembled frame was not easy. All parts soldered with a resistance soldering unit.

 (http://images21.fotki.com/v841/photos/7/1437817/9591049/DSC_5287-vi.jpg)

 lower and upper bolster parts added and wedged in place with some scrap wood strips. When properly alligned it was a pia to fit the 10 miniature springs between the bolster parts.
 glueing the springs was no alternative due to size of springs. The whole range of dutch "four letter "words and more were used before the springs were in place. I have not tried to remove the scrap wood wedges.

 (http://images34.fotki.com/v1082/photos/7/1437817/9591049/DSC_5286-vi.jpg)

 a finished car before fitting of link and pin couplers the brass longitudinal members are replaced with timber ones.
 the timber will be removed for painting. I am trying various methodes to fit the l&p couplers, the original is compared to the FMW couplers too coarse.

 an update on the PSC cars variant :

  (http://images27.fotki.com/v1021/photos/7/1437817/9591049/DSC_5295-vi.jpg)

  wooden deck similar to the Russell car.  I have not found a satisfactory solution for the end beams.

  A BM set after the abuse of a 3 day show:

 (http://images58.fotki.com/v85/photos/7/1437817/9591049/DSC_5298-vi.jpg)

  the l&p couplings definitely are an improvement over the kadee solution.

 All cars have, after some extensive adjustements, outstanding rolling abilities. It is possible to push a loaded 8 set train through a 19" curve to the logdump.

  Jacq
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on March 18, 2011, 01:21:08 PM
It looks like a lot of time and effort to produce a single pair of properly functioning trucks. How many pairs do you need? -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: lab-dad on March 19, 2011, 08:46:47 AM
The Echo mountain ones sure are pretty!
I can relate to the assembly issues, even knowing that I'd like to get a couple.
-Marty


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on April 01, 2011, 04:49:53 AM

  A bit tired of trying to built good looking logging cars I have started with the PSC 16 ton Shay. I wanted to built this loco with the proper set of mind.
  The trucks are being converted from On3 into On30. This will be built when in the right mood.  :)

  (http://images53.fotki.com/v536/photos/7/1437817/7958444/DSC_5340-vi.jpg)

  (http://images107.fotki.com/v70/photos/7/1437817/7958444/DSC_5339-vi.jpg[img]   [img]http://images17.fotki.com/v147/photos/7/1437817/7958444/DSC_5341-vi.jpg)

   the cylinders.   The original set was deformed to the extend that there was a misallignment in exess of 1 mm and beyond repair.
                        courtesy PSC they send a new set of cylinders, but the wrong one for a straight boiler.
                        Finally after 6 weeks I received a correct set.

  (http://images109.fotki.com/v146/photos/7/1437817/7958444/DSC_5342-vi.jpg)

 (http://images38.fotki.com/v1221/photos/7/1437817/7958444/DSC_5338-vi.jpg)

  Everything is soldered with a RSU with fine tweezers with various power settings, the heavier work is done with a probe at 250 W.

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Chuck Doan on April 01, 2011, 10:00:42 AM
Intersting. I just recently got my plastic version of this loco out for it's yearly hem and haw and what can I do with this. I haven't packed it away just yet!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on April 01, 2011, 01:38:17 PM
Nice, clean work, Jacq. Building with brass is a dying art and I admire your skill. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on April 01, 2011, 02:37:39 PM
I agree..nice build so far.
What paint do you use on your plastic to give it that brass look?  ;) :P ;D ;D ;D

Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on April 02, 2011, 01:56:46 AM
I agree..nice build so far.
What paint do you use on your plastic to give it that brass look?  ;) :P ;D ;D ;D

Marc

  Alclad , of course .

  Nick


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: lab-dad on April 02, 2011, 06:59:39 AM
I am looking forward to seeing the conversion of the trucks,
I would like one of these Shays to replace the B'man ones i threw in the street.
-Marty


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on May 16, 2011, 08:20:18 AM

   Marty, 
  the assembly of the rear truck. I followed the advice I received from Bernard. 
  The bolsters are cast according to plastic masters and the sides connecting to the sideframes are NOT straight.
  for On30 not a problem and the bolster width was milled to 21,90mm with parallel sides.
  I replaced the bearing journals on the non driven side from brass ones to celon ones ( PSC part no PSSH8053-1) as extra safeguard against shorts)
  In a jig one sideframe was soldered square to the bolster, journals, springs, wheelsets and the other sideframe were added and the second sideframe soft soldered at the bottom to the bolster. This assembly is than oiled on bearings and pinion gears and tested for rolling performance  ( don't forget to add a weight on to of the bolster to load the springs)
  With the weight added it is free rolling on staight and curved track. All crossmembers, brakehangers and brakebeams are trimmed and will be soldered to the trucksides before being joined together again.

  (http://images57.fotki.com/v80/photos/7/1437817/7958444/DSC_5465-vi.jpg)

  (http://images53.fotki.com/v138/photos/7/1437817/7958444/DSC_5466-vi.jpg)

  (http://images9.fotki.com/v131/photos/7/1437817/7958444/DSC_5469-vi.jpg)

  (http://images58.fotki.com/v506/photos/7/1437817/7958444/DSC_5467-vi.jpg)

  (http://images53.fotki.com/v140/photos/7/1437817/7958444/DSC_5468-vi.jpg)

  As there is more work ongoing, here an update on the landscaping:

  (http://images56.fotki.com/v127/photos/7/1437817/8275523/DSC_5471-vi.jpg)

  Watertank module. Mechanisme for moving waterspout is not working reliably, so will be replaced  >:(
  A lot of grass tufts added. All the grass has been newly colored to give the burnt grass look.
  ( on the photo's the grass looks less beige than in real, maybe due to white balance, flouresence- tubes and led-tubes)

  (http://images56.fotki.com/v124/photos/7/1437817/8275523/DSC_5472-vi.jpg)

  (http://images53.fotki.com/v140/photos/7/1437817/8275523/DSC_5476-vi.jpg)

  (http://images12.fotki.com/v611/photos/7/1437817/8275523/DSC_5479-vi.jpg)

  (http://images9.fotki.com/v120/photos/7/1437817/8275523/DSC_5477-vi.jpg)
 
  area in hand with planting tufts.

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Chuck Doan on May 16, 2011, 10:38:06 AM
Nice looking scene!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on June 30, 2011, 11:21:03 AM
   Someone send me following link:

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIcwX1ElzBY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIcwX1ElzBY)

   One of the crew is learning to dump logs .  As too many logs didn't fall in the water correctly, the near side chocks on the bunks have been removed to enable the logs to roll off without twisting on the cars.

   The boiler and engine house for the workshop with details is nearly finished and the landscaping improvements are in the final stage.
   I hope to have the PSC shay finished by the next exhibition in October.

   Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on June 30, 2011, 05:17:12 PM
Hi Jacq,
Thanks for the link.  I quite like the colouring as it showed in the clip, and the scales/proportions of the scenery to the actual scene make for a very nice looking layout.  I see what you mean about the log dump practice  ;D.  Do you also have any photos of the rear of display set up?  No rush to get them if you don't, but next time the layout is up and running on display, I 'm always interested to see peoples ideas for behind the scene management/construction.

Cheers,
Dan


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on July 01, 2011, 12:09:40 AM
Looks great! Nice smooth operation of the train too.

I don't quite understand how the log dump works. The chain lays across the tracks somehow, then is pulled up to push the logs off. How does the train drive over the chain, and why doesn't the chain dump the whole car and not just the logs??



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Junior on July 01, 2011, 04:42:54 AM
Really nice video Jacques! For some reason it stopped after five minutes but I´ll try again. Also thanks for your ideas about my wall!

Anders  ;D


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: narrowgauger on July 01, 2011, 08:24:27 PM
Hi Jacq,

thank you for posting the video, which really does justice to your wonderful layout.

I was also pleased that the Shay performed well and operated at the speed it should.  Nice to know that it did not cause any embarresment at the show.

Looking forward to seeing how your Shay is progressing.

Bernard


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on July 02, 2011, 01:29:03 AM

   Bernard,

   the performance of the large shay is fenomenal. 
   With a Kuehn mini decoder the loco can crawl with a speed of 4" in 10 minutes. 
   I hope I can get the performance of the PSC shay on par with your loco when using the driveline change recommendations you send me.

   Anders, strange, I am able to see the full ten minutes.

   Ray,  the logdump operation will be explained in an article I am preparing for Russ.
   Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Philip Smith on July 02, 2011, 05:39:23 AM
Great video and the Shay looks awesome!

Philip 8)


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on July 05, 2011, 02:41:34 PM
Looks Beautiful Jacq! Congratulations!

Will you be doing a more reflective/clear/waterlike surface in the pond (like a thin resin or gloss acrylic medium) as part of the final work?

Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on July 05, 2011, 02:48:30 PM
Ray,

In real life a guy would  have to take the unloading chain, crawl under the car and hook it to the inside of the brow log...the unloader, tightened the chain and the logs rolled into the dump....the guy would then unhook the chain, ....train moves forward....process repeated. Some dumps were also designed with a sloped track cross section at the dump...the brow log side was lower...this helped with the unloading process. Browlogs also often had a ledge or rail section on the inside edge, that would support the bunks or the flat car side sills, so they would not tip or slide out/derail, while unloading.

...how Jaqc achieved this...well thats for his article. ;)


Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on July 05, 2011, 03:09:58 PM
    Marc,
 
    yes. I am waiting with the final water application untill the rest is to my satisfaction. I am experimenting with Humbrol acrylic gloss ( no 35) ,
    Gunze no 30 and artist gloss medium like Rembrand and other better brands. I am trying to establish which one is no turning yellow and can withstand cleaning without striping.
    I have tried boat varnish, but I am not satisfied as it is more suited to enhance wood effect than to provide just gloss and in some cases not compatible with acrylics.

    This will include the slipway, logcar, dump inside the mill etc. everything that is affected by water.
    part of this activity will be a dustcover when the layout is not in use.
    
    A new more robust servo has been installed for the logdump chain, together with a on/off contact for the track as some operators forget to return the chain and try to move the train.

The color of the "burned grass" out of the box is being changed to a more correct color of burned grass. I have experimented with different sizes tuft, static applied grass and mats from several sources. My preference goes to Fredericus Rex material. Tufts are applied in such a way that permanent parches, loose groups and individual tufts are created. All grass is treated afterwards with an old toothbrush and extra applications of earth. ( photo's will follow)

 Ray, nice challenge to figure out how the logdump with the chain works  ;D ;D ;D ( tip it works like the real one)

Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on July 06, 2011, 01:27:51 AM
Considering the starting point, any enhancements to the diorama should be very impressive. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: LeOn3 on July 06, 2011, 02:05:14 PM
 

 Ray, nice challenge to figure out how the logdump with the chain works  ;D ;D ;D ( tip it works like the real one)

Jacq

Ooh, ooh,I know, I know. ;)
Don't wory Jacq, won't tell your secret. You safe that for your article.It was a pleasure operating it in Utrecht.

Leon


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on August 10, 2011, 04:09:17 AM

   Finally into modeling again.
   The renovation of the house is going far better without me so I was send of to have a nice time travelling through Finland, Sweden and Norway.  ;D ;D
   By train and local busses, Alan Rees and I have been in places not often visited by tourists. Helsinki, Kemi, Haparanda, Pajala, Kiruna, Poulsa, etc.
   The situation on the physical side is also improving after a very long time of uncertainties. A final MRI scan coming Friday of my skull and cranium and Tuesday the results.
   Life is looking a lot brighter now......and hope and humour are very effective medicines.

   With the pleasure in modeling returning, I spend a couple of nights in my hobby room, after a very long time not even opening the door. I worked on several items, but most energy went into the annexe of the workshop. I installed the boiler and steam engine for the workshop's belt drives and added the vislble blacksmith's part.

   (http://images15.fotki.com/v235/photos/7/1437817/9966655/DSC_5616-vi.jpg)

   (http://images12.fotki.com/v616/photos/7/1437817/9966655/DSC_5619-vi.jpg)

   Still a lot to be added, like boiler piping, blacksmith's shop clutter, sliding door etc, etc.

   Jacq
   

 

   


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on August 10, 2011, 06:02:28 AM
Jacq

Good to see you back at the bench.  And glad to hear your feeling better.

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Design-HSB on August 10, 2011, 06:21:15 AM
Hi Jacq,

I can understand you only too well that health is the most important thing we need to build models.
You build very beautiful models and I wish you all the best, so you can still build a lot of beautiful models.
There's also a good model, also good therapy for the soul.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on August 10, 2011, 01:00:41 PM
A very good addition. And I am very relieved to hear you are improving. Please continue recovering and modeling. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on August 10, 2011, 11:28:21 PM
In your travels through Finland, did you pass through Oulu? I have a friend who lives there.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Malachi Constant on August 10, 2011, 11:33:00 PM
Beautiful work!  Glad you're feeling better and inspired to do some modeling.  -- Dallas


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on August 11, 2011, 02:32:36 AM

   Ray,

   yes we passed through Oulu.  As the mainline is single track, we had to wait 25 minutes before we continued to Kemi.
   A nice railwaystation, but a strange place to have a tattoo shop  ???.

   Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Alan Rees on August 11, 2011, 04:14:23 AM

   Ray,

   yes we passed through Oulu.  As the mainline is single track, we had to wait 25 minutes before we continued to Kemi.
   A nice railwaystation, but a strange place to have a tattoo shop  ???.

   Jacq

Indeed, that is a scheduled 25 min stop.  In many parts of the world there would be traders on the platform taking this daily opportunity to hustle you.
I won't tell you where Jacq's tattoo is.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on August 16, 2011, 03:31:33 AM
Nice to hear your doing better, and see you back to modeling!  Keep up both.

M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on September 07, 2011, 01:48:42 AM

   The layout will go to the following exhibitions this year :

      8/9    October    RAMMA + Expometrique Sedan (F)
    15/16   October    US convention             Rodgau  near Frankfurt  (D)
     5/6     November  Spoorgroep Zuid          Helmond  (NL) 
    25/27   November  Railexpo                     Villebon sur Yvette ( Paris)   

    Jacq   

   


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on September 07, 2011, 04:09:07 AM
Nice to see you'll have a busy next few months on the road Jacq.  Please remember to grab a few pics of the set up while out and about, and I look forward to reports on the layout feedback.  Have some good shows...

Cheers,
Dan


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on October 12, 2011, 11:56:54 AM

   Here a link to the RAMMA Sedan show. The photo's are by Frank Forsten. He joined me to Sedan and we had a very good time.
    Not too much beer  ;) , good food and nice company.
    The text is in German, I hope this is not a problem

   http://www.noetzel24.de/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=336 (http://www.noetzel24.de/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=336)

    I have had not time to sort photo's and impressions at I straight away started with repairs of some irritating items, causing the ocassional derailment or pick up problems.
    Tomoorow packing for the US convention in Rodgau ( Germany) where Alan and Nick will join me on Friday to try to dump the logs in the pond.

    Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Chuck Doan on October 12, 2011, 01:10:19 PM
The link goes to a registration page for me. No passwort have I gottun.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Frank Forsten on October 12, 2011, 01:12:12 PM
The noetzel24 forum is a private one, used by a small group of friends, so no access without account. So I'll add the image links and some explainations here. There are many pics of Jacq's layout here in the forum and at other places, so I did just a few "men-at-work" shots:

(http://www.forsten-online.de/offshore/Sedan2011/IMG_6217.jpg)

(http://www.forsten-online.de/offshore/Sedan2011/IMG_6250.jpg)

(http://www.forsten-online.de/offshore/Sedan2011/IMG_6219.jpg)

(http://www.forsten-online.de/offshore/Sedan2011/IMG_6220.jpg)

(http://www.forsten-online.de/offshore/Sedan2011/IMG_6222.jpg)

And behind the layout, Jacq and I were at work:

(http://www.forsten-online.de/offshore/Sedan2011/IMG_6320.jpg)

(http://www.forsten-online.de/offshore/Sedan2011/IMG_6234.jpg)

(http://www.forsten-online.de/offshore/Sedan2011/IMG_6235.jpg)

(http://www.forsten-online.de/offshore/Sedan2011/IMG_6236.jpg)

The most important part of the layout is this chute which helps tp perform the "dump-the-log-in-the-pond" game which always attracts the audience:

(http://www.forsten-online.de/offshore/Sedan2011/IMG_6231.jpg)


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Frank Forsten on October 12, 2011, 01:19:55 PM
The audience was very cheerful about the layout and I don't want to know how much GB memory space was filled with images and movies.

(http://www.forsten-online.de/offshore/Sedan2011/IMG_6312.jpg)

(http://www.forsten-online.de/offshore/Sedan2011/IMG_6315.jpg)

Of course many questions were asked, for three days we spoke a mix of english and french - for me it was a surprise, that even young french people speak very little english. C'est la Grande Nation...

(http://www.forsten-online.de/offshore/Sedan2011/IMG_6321.jpg)

(http://www.forsten-online.de/offshore/Sedan2011/IMG_6359.jpg)

It was big fun to stand between the visitors and run the layout - including log dump - with a DECT mobile phone as remote control.

(http://www.forsten-online.de/offshore/Sedan2011/IMG_6365.jpg)

And when everything worked perfect and all logs were dumped properly, we had a smile on our faces.

(http://www.forsten-online.de/offshore/Sedan2011/IMG_6366.jpg)

That is exhausting work! Beside speaking in two foreign languages, the operating of the DECT mobiles needed quite some concentration and we deserve some refrishment.

(http://www.forsten-online.de/offshore/Sedan2011/IMG_6354.jpg)


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Frank Forsten on October 12, 2011, 01:30:47 PM
About the environment: The exhibtion took place in a gym (?), which was rather worn.

(http://www.forsten-online.de/offshore/Sedan2011/IMG_6339.jpg)

Inside, the hall was drafty, cold and humid and we had to face several technical problems on the first day - that are the issues Jacq is working on now. A real benefit was our position right across from a large "window", so we had a nice daylight illuminating the layout.

Quite french our accomodation in the deluxe hotel "Le Relais": It had a very traditional ghoulish charme and provided lot of ideas for Last Days dioramas

(http://www.forsten-online.de/offshore/Sedan2011/IMG_6391.jpg)

(http://www.forsten-online.de/offshore/Sedan2011/IMG_6393.jpg)

I would not have been surprise if Jack Nicholson had jumped into the hall way, waving his axe...

(http://www.forsten-online.de/offshore/Sedan2011/IMG_6384.jpg)

So far about the very nice weekend. As always it was a pleasure to spend the time with Jacq model railroading or or telling stories at the bar. The exhibtion provided a lot of nice layouts, many narrow gauge. If you don't mind OT pics, I could add more impressions of RAMMA 2011 here.

Regards, Frank


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Mobilgas on October 12, 2011, 02:28:33 PM
Frank,    Thanks for posting pictures of Jacq's layout......nice to see pictures of the layout from behind the scenes. Post more pictures when you get a chance ;)


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: eTraxx on October 12, 2011, 02:46:48 PM
Man .. I haven't seen .. or tasted for that .. 33 since 1972 in Vietnam


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on October 12, 2011, 05:21:41 PM
Very interesting, thanks for posting the pics!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on October 13, 2011, 12:28:20 AM
Thanks for that group of shots Frank.  I always appreciate those behind the scene shots as much as the front impressions.  They always come in handy for getting your head around how it all works and goes together.  You also have a really good selection of candid shots there.  Please feel free to post them all here, especially given the restrictions (language and membership) on the other site.

Thanks for sharing the updates,
Dan


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on October 13, 2011, 01:46:35 AM
Frank, that was a very enjoyable photo essay ... and you did it with a nice touch of humor. Thank you.

(I bet you secretly built most of the layout, too ....)

Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on October 13, 2011, 01:58:39 PM
 
 
Quote
(I bet you secretly built most of the layout, too ....)

   boohoo  :'( :'( :'( :'(   

  tomorrow he is not part of the gang  ;)   
   I am assisting modellers like  Nick and Alan  ;D.  Also Leon together with John Vogelaar will be there with John's layout Coldcreek. ;D ;D
   there will be plenty to do, like a logdumping competition, shay crawling and much more. Questions to be answered
    Most probably the layout's beer will be gone before the end of the weekend.

    Jacq
   


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on October 13, 2011, 03:30:09 PM
There's a discussion going on one of my local railway forums, about "incentives to exhibit"...free beer to exhibitors (or atleast allow a licenced venue), now that could be real incentive (as well as help to numb the pain after answering the same question for the 83rd time in one day! ;D)

Dan


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Frank Forsten on October 13, 2011, 11:34:53 PM
 
 
Quote
(I bet you secretly built most of the layout, too ....)

   boohoo  :'( :'( :'( :'(   

Oh, well - if I got 1/4 of Jacq's skill and determination, I would be very happy...

Frank


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on October 14, 2011, 01:38:53 AM
You guys are so modest. I build all of Chuck Doan's models. -- ssuR


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on October 21, 2011, 12:29:29 PM
   Aha Russ,  that is good to know, than you can give me a hand in building one or two 1:35 buildings for my new project. I don't dare to ask Chuck as he is too busy. :D ;)

   update :  no of visitors at the RAMMA Sedan :  9200 in 1,5 days  ( Saturday  14.00h -19.00h and Sunday 10.00h -17.30h ) despite weather, rail strike, large roadworks, ect.
                Previous show had in excess of 10.000.
                US convention Rodgau was also a large succes. no of visitors unknown.

  (http://images15.fotki.com/v2/photos/1/1437817/7089307/TO_FRANK_ZARGES_ONTRAXS2010_07-vi.jpg)
  Frank Zarges photo

  


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on October 21, 2011, 01:00:12 PM
I like that photo. He managed to make the scene come to life despite shooting in what must have been difficult circumstances and poor lighting.

The diorama ain't bad, neither ....

Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on October 21, 2011, 05:16:27 PM
That is just about the point where all the locos and disconnects used to leave the track last weekend . Jacq needs to get hold of Frank and get him to sort out his turnouts .  Us Master Train Operators shouldn't  be expected to put up with those sorts of problems ,

   Nick


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on October 21, 2011, 06:35:25 PM
Great photo of a marvelous diorama!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Alan Rees on October 21, 2011, 06:47:54 PM
That is just about the point where all the locos and disconnects used to leave the track last weekend . Jacq needs to get hold of Frank and get him to sort out his turnouts .  Us Master Train Operators shouldn't  be expected to put up with those sorts of problems ,

   Nick

Driving was certainly a challenge, but we failed miserably to recreate this scene.... ;D


(http://www.finescalerr.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=176.0;attach=772;image)

We must try harder next time !


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on October 22, 2011, 03:17:41 AM

   Rub it in, rub it in.   ::) ::)
   But it is not only my fault,  this happens when you run overloaded cars too fast over points.  The solder melted with the speed both of you drove to entertain the public.
   The bearings in the shays and climaxes will have to be replaced soon.

   Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Alan Rees on October 22, 2011, 03:44:43 AM
 this happens when you run overloaded cars too fast over points.  

Overloaded cars  ???  If you don't tell us about the lead weights hidden in the logs. How are we to know ?
Anyway, here's a report from the DSO ... http://www.drehscheibe-foren.de/foren/read.php?10,5597684


The high speed driving can be seen here (from 3m50s) :  
http://www.myvideo.ch/watch/8300650/US_Modellbahn_Convention_2011_in_Rodgau (http://www.myvideo.ch/watch/8300650/US_Modellbahn_Convention_2011_in_Rodgau)

BTW ca. 3000 US model railroad fans visited the convention, which the organisers described as complete success.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on October 22, 2011, 05:03:31 AM
Jacq,
That photo from frank is quite neat, and captures the feel very well.

Alan,
Thanks for posting the link to the video, great to see the layout in opertation.  Also nice to see that there wer a couple of other very neat/interesting layouts. Especially liked the "City Limits" believable modeling, and very good and unique presentation, I think it had a really great feel....also really great to see that the builder was not afraid to block the views with the backs of the front building flats, thus creating really interesting lines of sight between the structures.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on November 13, 2011, 12:14:58 PM

    I am looking for a Bachmann On30 Climax rear truck.  I have a B'woods addition and I am not too happy with it as the truck frame and wheel diameter don't match the Bachmann ones.
    Bachmann offered some time back trucks as spares, but it looks like they are not selling them anymore. Rear trucks from loco's with busted gears do have my interest.

   
    Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on November 13, 2011, 02:01:06 PM
Hi Jacq,
Still contact Bachmann though their parts & service section on their website.  I have ordered and received parts not listed in their usual parts list as displayed online.  Download one of the exploded diagrams of the loco in question, so you can refer to the correct parts numbers.  I had to replace the front drive shaft on a Climax and had no problem with getting the part through Bachmann (even though not listed online).

Hope that helps.

Cheers,
Dan


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on November 16, 2011, 05:15:42 AM
  Dan,

  bad luck.  >:(    Individual parts for driveline yes, complete truck no.  They are not available according to the email from the service department.

  If someone has a climax with defunct driveline or broken gears and is willing to part from it, please contact me.



  Just received a new mail from Bachmann Service with good news  ;D ;D

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on November 21, 2011, 05:10:53 AM

  Anyone going to the Railexpo 2011 ( ex Expometrique ) in Villebon sur Yvette coming weekend ?

  We are in dire need of English speaking visitors, otherwise all discussions will be inbetween ourselves  :o :o
  It was a shock in Sedan to discover how few French, even the younger ones, speak English.

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on November 21, 2011, 05:38:42 AM
Good luck and lots of fun at the show.



Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Alan Rees on November 21, 2011, 07:12:47 PM
The Normans (French Vikings) were the last lot who invaded England. In spite of this domination they failed to fully implement their language which is why French is still regarded as a foreign language. English is a mixture of German, Danish and French, i.e. Anglo-Saxon influenced by the Normans, which means it is also a foreign language. It is not surprising that we rarely understand each other when we are all speaking a foreign language.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on November 22, 2011, 03:31:48 AM
We could all speak Latin .... -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: james_coldicott on November 22, 2011, 04:04:40 AM
Quote
We could all speak Latin .... -- Russ

Russ,

what a vacuous proposition!

"circumvent latin at all costs"

... that's my motto!

James  ;)


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: mad gerald on November 22, 2011, 04:05:46 AM
We could all speak Latin ....

... [sic!] ... (si libet, licet) ...


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Bexley on November 22, 2011, 07:37:58 PM
Ferrugo virumque cano.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on November 22, 2011, 08:26:15 PM
The Normans (French Vikings) were the last lot who invaded England..

That explains "Asterix & Obelix"! ;D


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: mad gerald on November 23, 2011, 01:36:36 AM
... ROMANES EUNT DOMUS ... romani, ite domum ...  ;)


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on November 23, 2011, 02:39:15 AM
Everybody on this forum is crazy. Now, all of you ... go stand in the corner! -- ssuR


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: mad gerald on November 23, 2011, 03:10:09 AM
Everybody on this forum is crazy. Now, all of you ... go stand in the corner! -- ssuR

... hmphhh ... getting quite crowded 'round here these days ...  :P


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on November 23, 2011, 12:16:36 PM
Everybody on this forum is crazy. Now, all of you ... go stand in the corner! -- ssuR

  Bloody cheek , you started it with all this latin nonsense . You go and stand in the corner ,



  Nick , off to jolly old France tomorrow . That should piss them off nicely .


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on November 23, 2011, 03:09:53 PM

  We will have a truly international crew:  English, German, Dutch and a French friend will drop in on Sunday.
 
  For sure w'll have fun, but first we'll have to find Nick on Charles de Gaulle Airport and find our way to the other side of Paris without navigation  ;D ;D ;D

  Pity we don't have time to visit the Moulin Rouge or Follies Bergere to see lots of girls in thongs  :( :(  (or less)
  No standing in the corner as we have a prime spot in the hall  http://railexpo.fr/?lang=en (http://railexpo.fr/?lang=en)
  The header photo is of my last layout Dreimühlentalbahn.  ;D 

  I'll hope to be back on Monday evening with plenty of photo's of the event. Not too many layouts and with firms like Fulgurex, Lematec, Lombardier, al high end
  manufacturer's with limited numbers of models, mainly in brass with steel wheels. The tradition of Expometrique is, with a different approach, continued.

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on November 23, 2011, 04:51:04 PM
Have fun, guys! -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on November 28, 2011, 08:51:00 AM

    we had a lot of fun  ;D ;D
    the first night with the3 of us in one typial french hotel room. After my complaint, I got for the rest of the show a room for myself  :D
   
    Nick and Michael run the layout so realistic that it received  First Price in the category "Plus belles Reseau"  or Best in Show Award.
    Everything functioned well except some small items that were solved quickly, like a broken wire in one of the loco's, the controller instructions for the points
    and loco's interaction. but all in all , a extremely rewarding cooporation between different nationalities ( english, german and dutch )
    None of us speak French so communication between public and operators was kept to a minimum,

    A pity Michael did not read his agenda correctly and discovered that he had an appointment on Monday morning 10.00h in Dortmund.
    We reluctantly left Sunday evening for a night trip to Holland, leaving Nick to find his way to the airport all by himself.  :o :o
    I have to find out later today or he arrived home or that we have to start a search action.

    Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on November 28, 2011, 11:20:30 AM
You're OK , Jacq , you don't need to explain to my wife why you abandoned me in the wastelands of France to fend for myself , because I made it out intact and have reached civilisation again .

  Nick


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on November 28, 2011, 02:51:41 PM
Congratulations on winning the prize ... and on abandoning Nick. Incidentally, I recently received reports that Nick was made to stand in the corner at the airport. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on March 02, 2012, 08:52:12 AM

  Going to OntraxS for 1,5 days.
  I just need to escape the disastrous situation at home to regain a bit of myself.
  Also the first time interested in modeling again in 2,5 months.
  I hope the feeling and love for it will return.
 
   Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on March 02, 2012, 01:10:17 PM

  Going to OntraxS for 1,5 days.
  I just need to escape the disastrous situation at home to regain a bit of myself.
  Also the first time interested in modeling again in 2,5 months.
  I hope the feeling and love for it will return.
 
   Jacq


 Jacq ,

     I hope you are able to get some pleasure from going to OnTrax in the very difficult situation you are in . I am sure when you are ready your interest will return , but for now you have more important things to think about .
     Looking forward to joining you for the BIG one in Dortmund . I guess I had better start earning some money to pay for all the goodies I might find there .

   Nick


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on March 02, 2012, 01:50:30 PM
It may help to get away for a couple of days and divert your attention. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on March 02, 2012, 07:27:24 PM
Whatever your circumstances, I wish you the best, jacq!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on March 09, 2012, 06:11:07 AM
  OntraxS was for me a good therapy.  I spend one day enjoying the atmosphere.
  Selcuk layout won best in show
  
   Here an impression  http://www.modelrailforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=21551&hl= (http://www.modelrailforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=21551&hl=) made by Abd and Erkut

   Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on March 09, 2012, 01:07:34 PM
Thanks for posting the link , Jacq . It looks as if it was a really good show . I am glad to see that you managed to get some pleasure from the time you were there .

   However , I am a bit concerned that Alan is becoming  an " operating whore" ( pardon my French ) and is not fussy where he goes and plays trains and will go anywhere where he can twiddle some knobs ! Are we really sure we want him playing trains on your layout as he is getting a bit of a reputation . If you know what I mean !

   Nick


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on March 09, 2012, 01:25:21 PM
Thanks for the link Jacq.  Certainly looked like another well organised and supported event, and enjoyed by many.  The photo series was a great coverage of the show.

Cheers,
Dan


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on March 09, 2012, 02:16:23 PM
I very much enjoyed the photo coverage and captions. The layout looks excellent and I am glad it won an award. It must have taken a lot of work to set up and break down the layout and also to deal with the crowds. The museum seems elegant and a good place for such an event. Congratulations. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Alan Rees on March 24, 2012, 07:02:44 PM

   However , I am a bit concerned that Alan is becoming  an " operating whore" ( pardon my French ) and is not fussy where he goes and plays trains and will go anywhere where he can twiddle some knobs ! Are we really sure we want him playing trains on your layout as he is getting a bit of a reputation . If you know what I mean !

   Nick

Jacq's quite happy with the arrangement. He collects the pimping fees. I thought he did the same for you. 

Looking forward to the big show in Dortmund !


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on March 27, 2012, 04:23:50 AM
 
 
Quote
Jacq's quite happy with the arrangement. He collects the pimping fees. I thought he did the same for you. 

  8) I have to pay for the Finescale RR books.  ;)

  Looking forward to the Dortmund show. Possibly with an electric threewheeler, but I'll be there   ;D

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: BKLN on April 05, 2012, 10:08:34 AM
Here is something a little off topic, but very closely related to Jacq's work: Over on one of the German forums there is a guy building some amazing N-scale stuff. Recently he has built the gravel yard from Jacq's Dreimühlentalbahn entirely from brass.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: BKLN on April 05, 2012, 10:11:01 AM
Here is a link to see his wunderbare work:
http://stummiforum.de/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=50628&start=150

(no need to understand German, the pictures speak for themselves.)


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on April 05, 2012, 01:53:11 PM
In N scale no less? That's absolutely depressing! Good photos, too. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Chuck Doan on April 05, 2012, 03:29:48 PM
I'd say that is the nicest N scale stuff I have seen. I would not have guessed the scale. Nice to see the sun works as a light source even at 160 times too big.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: W.P. Rayner on April 05, 2012, 06:43:54 PM
I'd say that is the nicest N scale stuff I have seen. I would not have guessed the scale.

Agreed... very impressive work. With the possible exception of the figure, there's nothing in that first photo that gives it away.

Paul


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on April 05, 2012, 09:57:20 PM
Wow. What the others said.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on April 05, 2012, 11:09:05 PM
Holy moly! That is incredible!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on April 06, 2012, 01:59:14 AM

  His work is incredable.
  He even is building N scale rolling material with finescale wheels for code 40 mainline rail.

  Jacq
 
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on April 06, 2012, 02:22:02 AM

  His work is incredable.
  He even is building N scale rolling material with finescale wheels for code 40 mainline rail.

  Jacq
 
 


  Just think what he could do if he modelled in a sensible scale . Like 1/35th ,

     Nick



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on April 07, 2012, 02:50:10 AM
Just think what he could do if he modelled in a sensible scale . Like 1/35th ,

     Nick


Just wait...he'll be there soon enough...age and eyesight will catch up with him.  ;D


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on April 12, 2012, 12:57:53 PM

  From 18 to 22 April, the layout will be at the Intermodellbau 2012 in Dortmund.
  Alan and Nick are part of the crew, together with more friends.
  The help is very much appreciated and needed. Nowadays I can only attend in a wheelchair and walk short distances with a walking stick.
 
   Anyone planning to attend, visit the layout in hal 4  opposite Selcuk - Ehpese layout and some more good layouts in the far off corner.
   I'll try to make photo's, otherwise Alan will publish an impression.

   Jacq
 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Alan Rees on April 22, 2012, 03:30:12 PM
It was a great show. Here are my first impressions:


Superstars

(http://feac.ch/moba2012/MOBA%20223.jpg)

Jacq & Abd    

It was a great honour to be able to help them.



The Mill:

(http://feac.ch/moba2012/MOBA%20185.jpg)

(http://feac.ch/moba2012/MOBA%20211.jpg)

(http://feac.ch/moba2012/MOBA%20219.jpg)

(http://feac.ch/moba2012/MOBA%20183.jpg)



Selcuk / Ephesus / St Mary's Shrine

(http://feac.ch/moba2012/MOBA%20141.jpg)

(http://feac.ch/moba2012/MOBA%20134.jpg)

(http://feac.ch/moba2012/MOBA%20033.jpg)

(http://feac.ch/moba2012/MOBA%20176.jpg)

(http://feac.ch/moba2012/MOBA%20077.jpg)


And, of course,  Nick found a corner.

(http://feac.ch/moba2012/MOBA074.jpg)




Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on April 22, 2012, 03:39:56 PM
Thanks for the pics Alan...hoping there will also be more to follow ;)
Very happy to see Jacq's fine layout out and about on show, and more importantly for you Jacq, a great smile on your face!

Perhaps something a bit disturbing, but that pic of Nick kind of reminds me of one of the final scenes from the Blair Witch project  ???

Cheers,
Dan


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on April 22, 2012, 08:21:58 PM
Jacq you look great.  And some nice pictures of the mill.

Would also like to add an excellent picture of "Sir Nick"!!!!! ;


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on April 22, 2012, 10:44:06 PM
Nice pics! The shot of the mill is especially interesting and really shows how much detail it contains.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on April 23, 2012, 02:03:10 AM
Thank you for posting the photos. All are wonderful. Nick looks better than ever. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Frank Forsten on April 23, 2012, 11:43:02 AM
(http://www.forsten-online.de/offshore/IMB2012/suchbild2.jpg)

It was great to meet Nick and his Remora personally. Hope he caught his plane on Saturday.

Frank


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on April 23, 2012, 03:00:12 PM
Thats one enormous crate of beer coming in for delivery to that sawmill.  Must have been running to a Friday afternoon prototype schedule!

Dan


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on April 23, 2012, 05:49:07 PM
Well , I think Alan caught my best side !

 Of course , when it came to getting Alan to do any work it was a different story . No matter how much we all tried we couldn't get him off his backside .

  Frank ,

  Many thanks for dropping me off at the airport and breaking all those speed limits . As luck would have it , I didn't read the time of my flight properly and it was at 14.35 and not 14.00 . Still , that meant I was there in plenty of time and I got a chance to see the delights of Bochum , such as they are !

  Nick


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Alan Rees on April 23, 2012, 06:26:45 PM
Of course , when it came to getting Alan to do any work it was a different story . No matter how much we all tried we couldn't get him off his backside .

Indeed it was good to relax while Frank's son, Thomas, was doing such excellent work:

(http://feac.ch/moba2012/MOBA305.jpg)








Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: DB_epoch_III on April 24, 2012, 03:37:52 AM
Hi Nick,

You have to know that Alan had to to another very hard job, seen on your picture (http://www.finescalerr.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=176.0;attach=9794;image). He had to make advertisement for our exhibition in May (http://germanrail.8.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=5149) and he caught a cold some days before too.

BTW: What was happened, that you were placed in the corner? I think I ask the stand master Jacq next time.

I was in Dortmund on Sunday to load up the layouts of Jacq and Abd to transport both to Leverkusen. It's stunning to see this layouts in real and working.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Erkut Baykal on April 24, 2012, 07:15:24 AM
Hi Guys,

Just returned...what a show it was....a bit tired...more to follow soon

(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg169/ebaykal/DortmundSelcuk119.jpg?t=1335273075)

Erkut


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Mr Potato Head on April 24, 2012, 10:21:42 AM
Thanks for the photo; it’s amazing to me that modelers look the same across the pond, heck you could be from Iowa.
Gil


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on April 24, 2012, 11:04:15 AM
I had a text from Jacq this morning saying that he has been taken to hospital as he no longer has any lower body function . Quite what this means I am not sure . Whatever it means it doesn't sound good . I can't see him being able to attend Leverkusen in two weeks time , but fortunately the layout is already there so I guess the other boys will sort it out and have it running .

   I hope this is a temporary thing and that he is up and running as soon as possible ,

   Nick


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Alan Rees on April 24, 2012, 11:19:35 AM
I had a text from Jacq this morning saying that he has been taken to hospital as he no longer has any lower body function . Quite what this means I am not sure . Whatever it means it doesn't sound good . I can't see him being able to attend Leverkusen in two weeks time , but fortunately the layout is already there so I guess the other boys will sort it out and have it running .

   I hope this is a temporary thing and that he is up and running as soon as possible ,

   Nick

Jacq's jolly face at Dortmund certainly hid the tremendous problems he is currently experiencing. I sincerely hope that a remedy can be found for his condition.  I'm sure that he knows he has all our best wishes, and hope there is a chance that he will be able to go to Leverkusen.



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Erkut Baykal on April 24, 2012, 12:03:21 PM
...of course its temporary ,he will be there Alan. The Jacq I know is a tough guy he will overcome it.He has all our best wishes from down here.

Now to the show; The right hand corner of hall 4 was where the main attraction was. We were just neighbors with Jacqs fantastic layout; The Mill:

(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg169/ebaykal/DortmundSelcuk105.jpg?t=1335288901)

...and ours; Selcuk:

(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg169/ebaykal/DortmundSelcuk111.jpg?t=1335288904)

...some shots from The Mill from my perspective;

(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg169/ebaykal/DortmundSelcuk054.jpg?t=1335288884)

(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg169/ebaykal/DortmundSelcuk055.jpg?t=1335288885)

(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg169/ebaykal/DortmundSelcuk061.jpg?t=1335288887)

(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg169/ebaykal/DortmundSelcuk065.jpg?t=1335288891)

(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg169/ebaykal/DortmundSelcuk066.jpg?t=1335288892)

(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg169/ebaykal/DortmundSelcuk100.jpg?t=1335288896)

(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg169/ebaykal/DortmundSelcuk101.jpg?t=1335288897)

(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg169/ebaykal/DortmundSelcuk103.jpg?t=1335288900)

.....having a break;

(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg169/ebaykal/DortmundSelcuk053.jpg?t=1335288881)

..he sure is enjoying himself;

(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg169/ebaykal/DortmundSelcuk117.jpg?t=1335288908)

....and is still reading a book about logging;

(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg169/ebaykal/DortmundSelcuk113.jpg?t=1335288906)

....enjoying ourselves after the show;

(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg169/ebaykal/DortmundSelcuk027.jpg?t=1335288878)

..last day, Franz has joined us to take both Selcuk and The Mill to Leverkuesen

(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg169/ebaykal/DortmundSelcuk118.jpg?t=1335288910)



...and finally, Nick feel no fret.....revenge has been taken; ;)

(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg169/ebaykal/DortmundSelcuk120.jpg?t=1335288880)

Erkut


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Alan Rees on April 24, 2012, 12:29:16 PM
Great pictures, Erkut.     Standing there for 10 mins was the most strenuous thing I did.



Thanks for the photo; it’s amazing to me that modelers look the same across the pond, heck you could be from Iowa.
Gil



What with all the Romulans, Klingons, and Vulcans who hang out in Iowa, our motley crew would hardly look unusual there.
Modellers always look the same in order to conceal their true identities.  

Nobody (except Nick) recognised the Hood, did they ?  

(http://feac.ch/moba2012/Hood.jpg) - (http://feac.ch/moba2012/Ali.jpg)


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on April 24, 2012, 01:25:48 PM
I had a good time just looking at the pictures. It seems those who attended must have had a ball. Except for Nick, of course, who had to stand in the corner the whole time.

I am very concerned about Jacq. Somebody please keep us up to date on his progress.

Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on April 24, 2012, 08:24:09 PM
Thanks for all the pics, looks like it was a lot of fun!

So sorry to hear that Jacq has been hospitalized. I hope and pray that he will be ok.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on April 25, 2012, 02:42:15 AM

 
the photo's do give a good impression.  And the atmosphere among the modellers was great.
I had already some walking problems since september and went around with a walking stick and later with a walker.
In march it appeared to improve a little. For the large exhibition in
dortmund I took my wheelchair with me tosit and see at the same time. the ability to push myself up from the bed or seat became harder on sunday.
when arriving home i managed to get my wheelchair out of the car while seating and get into it. i was unable to get upstairs so had to sleep on the couch.
overnight loss of sense below the hips got worse. the housedokter came and left and half an hour later i was on my way to hospital.
russ would be jalous with all those nice nurces around. butt they are making a gruyere cheese of me with taking their testing samples.
the prelim. diagnose is Cauda Echina Syndrome.  More info will follow.

Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Alan Rees on April 25, 2012, 02:54:21 AM
Good to hear from you Jacq. I hope you get the very best treatment, especially from the nurses.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Abdusta on April 25, 2012, 04:21:28 AM
Jacq

I hope to see you again in Leverkursen.

regards
A.usta


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Chuck Doan on April 25, 2012, 08:10:41 AM
Thanks for the show coverage!

Jacq, sorry to hear of the new troubles. I hope it is just a temporary setback.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on April 25, 2012, 02:28:45 PM
I looked up the condition on Wikipedia. Apparently doctors can treat it and sometimes full recovery is possible. In your case, let's all  hope for a full recovery. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Alan Rees on April 25, 2012, 03:09:53 PM
In your case, let's all  hope for a full recovery. -- Russ

I'll second that.

Jacq's layout is featured in the German O Gauge magazine ....


SpurNull Magazin (http://www.spurnull-magazin.de/veranstaltungen/berichte/intermodellbau-dortmund-2012/)
.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Frederic Testard on April 26, 2012, 05:57:11 PM
Jacq, best wishes for a good recovery.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on April 27, 2012, 01:27:11 AM
Here is a get well card from all of us .


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on April 27, 2012, 02:08:50 AM
Thank you all for the support.
Yesterday a looong session in the MRI scanner.
Late this afternoon the neurosurgeon will discuss the results with me, in the mean time I am able to visit my wife.
the spasms in my legs are less painfull and later this afternoon the MRI will be discussed with a neurosurgeon.

Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on April 29, 2012, 09:39:28 PM
Hopefully the scan results and the meeting with the neurosurgeon will be positive.

Wishing you all the best.


Marc


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on April 30, 2012, 05:34:02 AM
Update:
my disfunction problems have little to nothing to do with the benign brain tumor I have.  The spine at the bottom shows a swelling due to a tumor or a deviation in the main veins.
Tomorrow a team of specialists ( today is queens day here) will discuss necessary further investigations in a specialised hospital 35km from here. The pain is down and I have received medicines to stop running the marathon in bed. I was allowed to visit my wife and we had a great time. I can move around now in a wheelchair ( handpowered  ;) ) and I start to understand Uncle's weakness and fondness for thong cladded cuties with all the nurses around here. No import from Russia etc yet. ::)

Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on April 30, 2012, 09:19:39 AM
Here's hoping your feeling much better in the future.  It sounds like your spirits are a bit lifted now.

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Frank Forsten on April 30, 2012, 10:04:23 AM
I start to understand Uncle's weakness and fondness for thong cladded cuties with all the nurses around here.
So you used to drop your pencil on the floor and ask for help? You lucky guy! Over here, most of them are former Ukrainian tractorists, one of them actually earned Olympic bronze for wrestling.

Like Jerry I hope that the new diagnosis implies better chances to improve your mobilty.

All the best, Frank


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on April 30, 2012, 01:58:43 PM
I think the doctors may find a way to cure, or at least greatly improve, your condition. In the meantime, ask them to prescribe some Viagra if you get lucky with the nurses in thong bikinis. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on April 30, 2012, 06:41:58 PM
I think the doctors may find a way to cure, or at least greatly improve, your condition. In the meantime, ask them to prescribe some Viagra if you get lucky with the nurses in thong bikinis. -- Russ

 Or better still , send him some of yours . The double strength stuff .


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: michael mott on April 30, 2012, 07:11:52 PM
Jacq, I am sad to hear of your troubles regarding your health, Your spirit sounds strong and I hope that you heal well. Thongs aside we all hope to be able to enjoy a lot more of your great modelwork in the future.

Michael


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Junior on May 01, 2012, 08:18:40 AM
Best of luck to you Jacques! You better be on your feet when I´ll come and visit during the Scale Model Challenge  ;).

Anders


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on May 01, 2012, 10:48:45 AM

Quote
I think the doctors may find a way to cure, or at least greatly improve, your condition. In the meantime, ask them to prescribe some Viagra if you get lucky with the nurses in thong bikinis. -- Russ

 Or better still , send him some of yours . The double strength stuff .

Viagra is out. To find out what is all affected, I received some other stuff named Cialis. Lasts much longer than Viagra. Not always to my liking ............. :o but the boundaries of my problems are now clear  ;D  I am reffered to a revalidation specialist  8) wonder what sort of program she/he will prescribe ;)

Jacq





Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on May 09, 2012, 03:02:29 AM
   Friday operation on the spine and bloodvessels in a specialised hospital, saturday back to the hospital I am in at the present.
   If all goes wel, all functions, including walking will return after revalidation.  ;D ;D

    Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: artizen on May 09, 2012, 03:28:13 AM
Fantastic news.  Keep smiling!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Design-HSB on May 09, 2012, 04:44:08 AM
Hi Jacq,

on all the best, for a full recovery.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: lab-dad on May 09, 2012, 06:12:08 AM
GOOD NEWS!
GOD speed!
 ;DMarty


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Chuck Doan on May 09, 2012, 07:57:40 AM
Hope it all goes well Jacq!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on May 09, 2012, 12:56:54 PM
Told ya! Told ya! Now make sure our predictions and wishes for a speedy and complete recovery come true. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on May 09, 2012, 01:21:14 PM
Sounds like good news Jacq.  All the best to you.  Looking forward to a speedy recover and seeing more good news from you.
God Bless.

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on May 09, 2012, 09:11:24 PM
Best wishes for the surgery and rehabilitation.


M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on May 10, 2012, 10:24:46 PM
Best wishes for a speedy recovery!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: John Lostcreek on May 12, 2012, 02:44:06 AM
Hi Jacq

Nice that the surgery went well and wish you much strength with rehabilitation


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: W.P. Rayner on May 12, 2012, 08:15:14 AM
I hope all went well with your surgery Jacq and that recovery and rehab will be as quick as possible...

Paul


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Alan Rees on May 12, 2012, 11:35:24 PM
Jacq,
All your friends at the Burscheid club miss you badly and were very sad to hear that the operation last Friday wasn't a success. We sincerely hope that a further operation will bring a better result.  It must be a nightmare for you in these circumstances, not knowing what will happen. Worst of all must be thinking your layout being operated by a complete idiot.  We really wish you were here. It's not the same without you.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on May 13, 2012, 01:36:11 AM
What? That's not the news we wanted to hear! -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: chester on May 13, 2012, 09:31:27 AM
wishing you a full and fast recovery Jacq.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on May 13, 2012, 10:26:28 AM
The operation was ok with some complications.
Monday new meeting surgeons an proposal.
Weird experience, being operated without anesthetics.
Very tiring experience
Alan I am glad the layout worked very well without my present. it a sign it is fool proof if you managed to build it up.

I feel sad I was not able to be in Leverkusen.

Jacq



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on May 13, 2012, 01:00:38 PM
Please explain the "complications" and possible solutions. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on May 14, 2012, 02:15:03 AM

 The neurologist explained "complications" as told by staff of operating hospital.
 The operation was ok, but they were not completely satisfied. Tonight there will be further discussions. ( Most probably they have not earned enough on me yet  ;) ;) )
 I feel the differences, standing has improved since Saturday and some more functions are being noticed/felt.
The neurologist sees this as good progress.

 Last night I felt the impact of the operation. 8 O'clock news start I remember until this morning at 7.30 when a nice nurse woke me up   ;D
 

 Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Belg on May 14, 2012, 11:20:56 AM
Jacq, buddy so sorry to hear of your problems. I hope the doctors can come up with a way to preserve your quality of life. When my Mom was sick we remember best the times that she felt happy, be optimistic it seemed to help. Good luck Pat


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Wesleybeks on May 14, 2012, 12:07:02 PM
Really hope you get well Jacq. Ill be thinking of you.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Alan Rees on May 15, 2012, 12:06:16 AM

 The neurologist explained "complications" as told by staff of operating hospital.
 The operation was ok, but they were not completely satisfied. Tonight there will be further discussions. ( Most probably they have not earned enough on me yet  ;) ;) )
 I feel the differences, standing has improved since Saturday and some more functions are being noticed/felt.
The neurologist sees this as good progress.
 
Jacq,

Jacq,
Well, there might be some "complications" to sort out but they aren't preventing you from getting your leg over,  as the rest of us can see from the attachments.  No doubt the improvement will continue and we'll have to check that your Olympic qualification is still valid.

It was great to see you in good spirit. Keep doing those exercises. Looking foward to your full recovery.




Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Frederic Testard on May 15, 2012, 12:53:21 AM
It's a pleasure to read the news and see this nice smile. Good recovery, Jacq.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on May 15, 2012, 01:54:38 AM
He lives! -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on May 15, 2012, 03:09:16 AM
I was a bit nervous about opening up photos of Jacq "getting a leg over" whilst at work (had visions of nurses in compromising positions)...atleast the smile on the face matches how I think he would have looked if those sort of photos were being circulated!!! :o

Good to see the grin on the screen again, and hope there can be continued follow with the docs to keep things heading in a better direction.

Cheers,
Dan


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on May 15, 2012, 09:47:57 AM
Good to see you "Have a leg up"!!!!!! :D

Keep the faith things will be fine. 

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Alan Rees on May 15, 2012, 04:11:55 PM
You put your right leg in,
You put your right leg out;
You put your left leg in,
And you shake it all about.
You do the hokey pokey,
And you turn yourself around.
That's what it's all about!

Keep it up Jacq !!!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: LeOn3 on May 16, 2012, 01:49:43 PM
Good to see you doing better Jacq.
Hope to do the hokey pokey soon together
get well

Leon


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: glaskasten on May 16, 2012, 06:09:44 PM
Jacq:

Wish you the best.  Hope to see you making contributions which inspire the rest of us to try harder.

I hope to see a 1:35 adventure soon.
http://www.finescalerr.com/smf/index.php?topic=1392.0
(http://images107.fotki.com/v67/photos/7/1437817/9438439/erftmuehlelayout-vi.jpg)

Paul


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on May 17, 2012, 01:09:33 AM
Jacq:

Wish you the best.  Hope to see you making contributions which inspire the rest of us to try harder.

I hope to see a 1:35 adventure soon.
http://www.finescalerr.com/smf/index.php?topic=1392.0
(http://images107.fotki.com/v67/photos/7/1437817/9438439/erftmuehlelayout-vi.jpg)

Paul

  Yes , we are all looking forward to seeing this project started . So it is time to stop lying about looking at all the nurses , and get back to layout building .

   I shall get the brick making machine into action and start churning out 1000s of bricks for the project . Do you want 1/32nd scale or 1/35th ? I have molds for both .

  Here is a website I have been sitting on for a few weeks to get your creative juices flowing: http://www.dioramadebris.co.uk/index.asp . At the moment they only ship to the UK . But if enough demand comes from abroad maybe he'll reconsider .

   Nick


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on May 17, 2012, 01:38:38 AM

 Nick, can you send me via my email your mobile number, I had to replace the sim in mine with the result loss of a number of connections.
 I am trying to get hold of Bernard for the Decauville, but so far unsuccessful.

 tomorrow I will undergo the final surgery to untangle the mess of veins discovered. sunday/monday back to the base hospital.
 revalidation for my legs has started already.

  Jacq



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: John Lostcreek on May 17, 2012, 06:27:05 AM
Jacq is back.  :D
Good to hear that things are moving in the right direction. The pictures speak for themselves.

regards John


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on May 17, 2012, 07:37:42 AM
Jacq

Almost sounds like a broken record.

Here's hoping that the new work on the legs is a success.  And that your back at the modeling bench in short order.
Will be praying for you.

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Mobilgas on May 17, 2012, 08:05:19 AM
Jacq,    Good Luck on your next operation  ;) :)


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Barney on May 17, 2012, 10:30:49 AM
Get well soon from all at the Phoenix Group - Dave - Nick - Gordon - James - Les - and Barney


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Erkut Baykal on May 17, 2012, 10:39:04 AM
Jacq, the Selcuk team sends their regards and get well soon.......our prayers are with you......new projects awaits your blessing!

Abd - Ali - Aykut - Erkut


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on May 17, 2012, 12:41:18 PM
The entire staff at Westlake Publishing sends his best wishes. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on May 18, 2012, 12:19:19 PM
The entire staff at Westlake Publishing sends his best wishes. -- Russ

I was under the impression that you did everything!!!!!!!!!!  So what's a staff look like at Westlake Publishing!!!  Oh I forgot no nude pictures allowed!!!!

Jerry

Ps  Here's hoping your better today Jacq.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on May 18, 2012, 12:45:27 PM
Jerry ,

  You didn't read it properly , " sends HIS wishes " , i.e. Russ's . You don't actually think anyone would be desperate enough to work for him , do you ? Clothed or otherwises .

 Oh , and how are you keeping ?

   Nick


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Alan Rees on May 18, 2012, 01:39:21 PM
Good news. SMS from Jacq - 2nd Operation went well today !




PS....

   I shall get the brick making machine into action and start churning out 1000s of bricks for the project.

Nick , Why is everything made of Lego ?


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on May 18, 2012, 06:17:04 PM
Good news. SMS from Jacq - 2nd Operation went well today !




PS....

   I shall get the brick making machine into action and start churning out 1000s of bricks for the project.

Nick , Why is everything made of Lego ?

  Because that is the only modelling I can do .


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Frank Forsten on May 20, 2012, 07:23:03 AM
Good news. SMS from Jacq - 2nd Operation went well today !
That's great, because it is time to leave the lovely nurses and to start modelling again  ;)

Frank


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on May 22, 2012, 09:16:30 AM
Frank,

leaving these nice nurses ??? you are kidding. Tomorrow revalidation discussions for going to a special revalidation centre, of course with new nice nurses. ;D ;D ;D ;D
In the mean time, Nick is doing something I dread to do an can't as I am not allowed to overload arms and shoulders.

the second operation last friday was very successful.
I can stand up again, the strange feelings are disappearing and walking will be possible again after revalidation.
The only item that takes longer is the change over from bladder katheter to normal bladder use. Gives sometimes funny situations when using a special bottle.
 Situation at home more difficult as we are reaching the final stages.

Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: BKLN on May 22, 2012, 10:41:43 AM
I am glad to hear about the improvements! Good luck to you!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on May 22, 2012, 02:59:44 PM
Hi Jacq,
That is pleasing to hear there has been some surgical success.  Probably more importantly than the actual surgery, is you sound like you have a good determined spirit happening, which is one of the factors that is a big influence on the speed of recovery.  You may want to keep the speed of your recovery quiet and too yourself though, mainly so you can take advantadge of Nick's manual labour for as long as possible...about 3 years till you are allowed to use the arms and shoulders again wasn't it? ;)

Dan


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Alan Rees on May 22, 2012, 03:56:31 PM
Jacq,
Great to here that you can walk again. Enjoy the new nurses  8)


BTW Avoid those bricks, you might end up in hospital...

http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/accidentsmishaps/a/barrel_bricks.htm (http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/accidentsmishaps/a/barrel_bricks.htm)



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on May 22, 2012, 05:00:55 PM
Hi Jacq,
  You may want to keep the speed of your recovery quiet and too yourself though, mainly so you can take advantage of Nick's manual labour for as long as possible...about 3 years till you are allowed to use the arms and shoulders again wasn't it? ;)

Dan


  That's a pity , because that means I won't be able to prepare for my clinic/symposium/lecture tour on scale brickwork that I am pencilled in to doing next year at the Oz NG Convention . Still I always have my fall back talk , with photos , on my collection of British Rail sandwiches acquired over the last 30 years . The photos include shots of the vending machines that I bought them from . Fascinating stuff , you're going to love it !

   Nick

  Oh , and I corrected your typo for you . Hope you don't mind .



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on May 23, 2012, 02:28:01 AM
  That's a pity , because that means I won't be able to prepare for my clinic/symposium/lecture tour on scale brickwork that I am pencilled in to doing next year at the Oz NG Convention . Still I always have my fall back talk , with photos , on my collection of British Rail sandwiches acquired over the last 30 years . The photos include shots of the vending machines that I bought them from . Fascinating stuff , you're going to love it !

   Nick

Gee. Sandwiches.  Sounds riveting. Cant wait.  :-\

Dan


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: artizen on May 23, 2012, 03:08:17 AM
Where is this sandwich convention and what has it to do with Jacq's health status?  ;)


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on May 23, 2012, 06:18:22 AM
I would probably want to go to a clinic on railway sandwiches, mainly out of curiosity to see how many anorak's would be sitting in the group ;D

Dan


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on May 23, 2012, 07:28:54 AM
I would probably want to go to a clinic on railway sandwiches, mainly out of curiosity to see how many anorak's would be sitting in the group ;D

Dan

 Well , we can count you as number one , and I'm sure Mario will be in attendance . So we're doing ok so far .


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on May 23, 2012, 12:46:35 PM
The topic of sandwiches sounds far more interesting than the usual convention clinic topics. And the crowd (both of them) might provide some refreshing heckling. I might fly out for this one. If creativity is permitted, I could propose some interesting sandwich flavo(u)rs along with a variety of exciting condiments. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on May 23, 2012, 01:27:21 PM
The topic of sandwiches sounds far more interesting than the usual convention clinic topics. And the crowd (both of them) might provide some refreshing heckling. I might fly out for this one. If creativity is permitted, I could propose some interesting sandwich flavo(u)rs along with a variety of exciting condiments. -- Russ

  If Mario is involved I'm sure there is going to be lots of heckling . But I can handle Mario !

  Yes , a Sandwich Symposium sounds like it could be a winner . Do they allow the import of Marmite to Australia , or is it regarded as a Banned Substance ? If you don't know what Marmite is , you must have lived a very sad and sheltered life .

   Nick


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on May 23, 2012, 03:28:39 PM
Will there be tasty bits of the various sandwiches for sampling? 

Never had Marmite or Vegemite..sounds most interesting....like a delicate Spam or Liverwurst I suppose.

I think I may have a pertifed one of those 1-euro salami sandwiches they sell at the Berlin S-Bahn platforms, that I can contribute to your lecture.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on May 23, 2012, 05:16:23 PM
Will there be tasty bits of the various sandwiches for sampling? 

Never had Marmite or Vegemite..sounds most interesting....like a delicate Spam or Liverwurst I suppose.

   Marmite couldn't be further away from either of those two .

   Think of thick black axle grease spread on with a trowel and you're getting close . It is one of those tastes that you either love or hate . There is no inbetween . Over here it has become a term used to describe the two extreme points of view .For instance , I think of Joanna Newsom as "The Marmite Girl" , you either love her music , or you hate it . In her case , I love it and the rest of my family hate it !

  But I digress .


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on May 23, 2012, 06:05:49 PM
Nick,
If you turn up and start presenting a clinic on "Railway Sandwiches from 1980-2010", I'll happily present you with the biggest jar of Vegemite I can find...unless you are concerned about sore arms and shoulders from working for Jacq, and wont be able to carry it home ;D

Dan


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on May 24, 2012, 12:57:17 AM
Nick,
If you turn up and start presenting a clinic on "Railway Sandwiches from 1980-2010", I'll happily present you with the biggest jar of Vegemite I can find...unless you are concerned about sore arms and shoulders from working for Jacq, and wont be able to carry it home ;D

Dan

 I don't think making 1000s of bricks for Jacq will make me that sore so I should have enough strength left in me to drag a jar of Vegemite home . Though I was hoping that my suitcase would be lighter on my return journey after having dumped a load of my junk on the unsuspecting Oz NG modellers .

  Nick


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on May 24, 2012, 01:42:28 AM
Vegemite sounds yummy. Have you tried it as mortar? -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on May 24, 2012, 01:53:47 AM
Vegemite sounds yummy. Have you tried it as mortar? -- Russ

Only on the inside...
Dan


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: mad gerald on May 24, 2012, 02:28:05 AM
...  I think of Joanna Newsom as "The Marmite Girl" , you either love her music , or you hate it . In her case , I love it and the rest of my family hate it !
...
... that's the harp player, performing some kinda so called freak folk ... isn't she?!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Alan Rees on May 24, 2012, 05:12:44 AM
Marmite (and I presume the same goes for Vegemite)  comes from the dregs you get after making beer. In Germany and Switzerland we feed this to the pigs and  look forward to enjoying a tasty ham sandwich at a later date.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/foodanddrinknews/8533896/Marmite-made-illegal-in-Denmark.html


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: artizen on May 24, 2012, 06:22:37 AM
Is Jacq coming to the Sandwich Convention? I could bring one of my favourites - cold baked beans with added tomato sauce and chutney? Shame Melbourne is so far away from Brisbane!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on May 24, 2012, 06:31:44 AM
Shame Melbourne is so far away from Brisbane!

 It's a booger sight closer than South Shropshire in England . So if I can make the effort ( which is yet to be seen ) then I'm sure you can !

  Nick


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on May 24, 2012, 06:32:27 AM
...  I think of Joanna Newsom as "The Marmite Girl" , you either love her music , or you hate it . In her case , I love it and the rest of my family hate it !
...
... that's the harp player, performing some kinda so called freak folk ... isn't she?!

  Yup , that's the one .


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on May 24, 2012, 06:34:22 AM
Before we lose sight of the main focus of our discussion .

 How are you doing , Jacq ? Finished pestering the nurses yet ?

    Nick


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on May 25, 2012, 01:39:56 AM
Quote
How are you doing , Jacq ? Finished pestering the nurses yet ?

I will leave hospital for a revalidation centre on Tuesday as there are no more cans with nurses in Geldrop Hospital.
Remarkable good progress with use of my legs  ;D ;D

Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on May 25, 2012, 03:05:46 AM
Quote
How are you doing , Jacq ? Finished pestering the nurses yet ?

I will leave hospital for a revalidation centre on Tuesday as there are no more cans with nurses in Geldrop Hospital.
Remarkable good progress with use of my legs  ;D ;D

Jacq

  That's good to hear , Jacq . Especially as the Dutch football team aren't doing very well at the moment and they need a good striker .

  Keep up the good recovery ,

    Nick


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on May 25, 2012, 06:20:18 AM
Good news Jacq.

Nick you bettter start making bricks Jacq sounds like he's almost ready to go.

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: W.P. Rayner on May 25, 2012, 08:55:37 AM
That's great news Jacq... congratulations! Attractive nurses are a great aid to speedy recovery... ;)

Paul


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on May 25, 2012, 11:43:34 AM
Good news Jacq.

Nick you bettter start making bricks Jacq sounds like he's almost ready to go.

Jerry

  Already started , Jerry Old Bean , already started . However , it looks as if I'll need to up production rates . Maybe I'll introduce a night shift !

  Nick


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on May 25, 2012, 12:22:58 PM
Let me warn you about those beautiful nurses: In college, when I had my wisdom teeth pulled, the anesthetic knocked me unconscious. I woke up in a recovery room and a beautiful, sexy young nurse said she would be right back. The anesthetic slowly wore off and I waited for the nurse to return. When she returned I realized she was about 50 years old, somewhat overweight, and anything but beautiful or sexy. Ah, the power of drugs! -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Mr Potato Head on May 25, 2012, 04:10:27 PM
Beer has the same effect! The more beer you consume and the later it gets,.............. The better looking women become!
Be very careful, that's why a designated spotter is your best friend!
Consume carefully!
A message from your beer consul and your friendly potato guru
MPH


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: W.P. Rayner on May 25, 2012, 09:59:13 PM
Let me warn you about those beautiful nurses: In college, when I had my wisdom teeth pulled, the anesthetic knocked me unconscious. I woke up in a recovery room and a beautiful, sexy young nurse said she would be right back. The anesthetic slowly wore off and I waited for the nurse to return. When she returned I realized she was about 50 years old, somewhat overweight, and anything but beautiful or sexy. Ah, the power of drugs! -- Russ

A perfect example of the phenomena known as "Better living through chemistry"...

Paul


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Erkut Baykal on May 26, 2012, 07:29:13 AM
That is wonderful news Jacq.

The Selcuk Team


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on May 26, 2012, 09:32:31 AM
Good news Jacq.

Nick you bettter start making bricks Jacq sounds like he's almost ready to go.

Jerry
   

   1000 bricks cast last night . None today . Maybe some more tomorrow .


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Carlo on May 26, 2012, 12:40:40 PM
Nick -
Could you please tell me about your brick molding/casting techniques?
Also, materials?  1000 in one night?
Carlo


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on May 26, 2012, 05:36:39 PM
Nick -
Could you please tell me about your brick molding/casting techniques?
Also, materials?  1000 in one night?
Carlo

Carlo the reason he is so fast.  His helper is that 50 year old nurse Russ was talking about!!!!! ;)

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on May 27, 2012, 02:23:08 AM
Nick -
Could you please tell me about your brick molding/casting techniques?
Also, materials?  1000 in one night?
Carlo

  I could tell you , but then you'll be as clever as me and we can't have that now , can we ! ? !

  Oh , all right seeing as it's you .

 I have two rubber molds for making 1/32nd scale bricks that I made myself and one mold for making 1/35th scale bricks that I recently bought from the company that I gave the web address in a previous post on this thread ( you'll have to find that for yourself as I'm not doing all the work ) . Each of the 1/32nd scale brick molds has 200 bricks and the 1/35th scale mold has 100 , so I can make 500 at a time . I reckon without to much trouble I could make 1500 a night .

  I normally use casting plaster with a builders mortar colouring powder added to give the bricks their red colour but I have been recently been trying out a product called Jesmonite that my son has brought home from work . Here is their website http://www.jesmonite.com/ . I don't think that there are any advantages of using this material in preference to plaster but as I was given it I thought I'd try it out .

  There , now you know as much as me .


   Nick
  Nick


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Alan Rees on May 27, 2012, 04:49:37 PM
There was an Irish man who went into a brick yard and asked for 1000 bricks.
The guy at the brick yard took the Irish man down to the shed and on the way down to the shed the guy asked him, "What do you need 1000 bricks for?"
The Irish man said, "I'm building a BBQ" so the guy asks, "Why do you need 1000 bricks?"
The Irish man replies, "Because I live on the 15th floor."





Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on May 28, 2012, 01:45:02 AM
Alan, go stand in the corner. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on May 28, 2012, 10:45:13 AM
Alan, go stand in the corner. -- Russ

  He's not coming into my corner . He'll have to find his own .


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Alan Rees on May 28, 2012, 02:33:27 PM
It's impossible to get into Nick's corner. It's all bricked up.



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on June 01, 2012, 09:55:51 AM

   Good news !!!!!!!!!   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

    Revalidation is going wel and most probably after 6 weeks i will be allowed home.  :D :D

    Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on June 01, 2012, 01:37:12 PM
In the meantime I suppose you are very disappointed to be locked up with all those beautiful, young nurses .... -- ssuR


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on June 21, 2012, 12:37:25 PM
  What beautiful nurses ??????  :( :(
  This is a revalidation clinic with a stringent time structure  :o and orientated on results  ;)
  Not achieved the targets ??  no desert or cookies with the coffee
  this weekend I will go home on Saturday and Sunday.  ;D ;D ;D ;D 

  Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on June 21, 2012, 01:57:43 PM
Great to hear Jacq...nothing like coming home to your own bed.
Sorry to hear about the dissappointment with the nurses, but if it makes you feel any better, they could have all been more like me...I'm also a nurse, bearded, slightly overweight, hairy legs, bit rough around the edges ;D

Cheers,
Dan


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on June 22, 2012, 01:05:45 AM

Sorry to hear about the dissappointment with the nurses, but if it makes you feel any better, they could have all been more like me...I'm also a nurse, bearded, slightly overweight, hairy legs, bit rough around the edges ;D

Cheers,
Dan

 Mmmmm, yummy ! Just my sorta gal !


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on June 22, 2012, 01:48:56 AM
We already knew that, Nick. No need to rub our noses in it. -- ssuR


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Gordon Ferguson on June 22, 2012, 08:10:27 AM
. No need to rub our noses in it. -- ssuR


I do wish you could have phrased that differently, now trying desperately to shut down my brain!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Chuck Doan on June 22, 2012, 09:35:43 AM
I'm glad to hear of your progress Jacq. Be glad your not stuck in the corner with these guys!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on July 21, 2012, 05:32:56 AM

 my appologies for the lack of participation.
 
 My wife died the 1st of Juli at the age of  58 from a incurable braintumor discovered just before Christmas.
 There was a life expectancy of 2-3 months.  There were two side to her living 2 times the time.
 One side we were all grateful she was with us for so long, the other side was agonising to witness the detoriation of who she was.

  Next week Thursday I will go home. I wonder what will happen. Revalidation will be now polyclinically 3x a week physiotherapy and
  ergonomical support in the household. The agenda will give me some daily structure and a base for new plans and interests.
  I have to redefine my wishes and dreams. I hope that with the disappearance of my physical restrictions interest in everything will return.
 
  jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: lab-dad on July 21, 2012, 06:16:42 AM
My sincere condolences.
We are here if you need the distraction.
Marty


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: billmart on July 21, 2012, 06:53:05 AM
So sorry to hear about your wife. 

Bill Martinsen


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on July 21, 2012, 11:32:20 AM
Jacq

My condolences to you and your family.

But as Marty said where here with you every step of the way.  God Bless and take care of yourself.

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on July 21, 2012, 03:05:08 PM
Dear Jacq,
Deepest condolences to yourself and the rest of your family.  I wish you some peaceful reflections of the times you had with your wife.  Stay rested, take care of yourself.  Your absence here is missed, but we are very appreciative of your family priorities.

Sincererly,
Dan


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on July 21, 2012, 05:40:01 PM
Jacq ,

   I didn't realise that Ineke was only 58 , that makes it even worse .

   You have had a shit year so far I only hope that things will pick up for you for the rest . Obviously life will be sadder for you now but you know that all your friends around the World ( and you've got a few) will be wishing you well .

   With all this treatment you have been receiving for your own ailments does this mean that I won't have to continue damaging my back pushing you around in a wheelchair ? Because I don't fancy trying to heave you up and down those big mountains they have in Switzerland ! ( For those that don't know , The US Convention , Adliswil , near Zurich in October is the next outing for the " Jacq Damen Trainset Roadshow" ) .

  Let me know the details for the show so that I can book flights etc ,

  Nick


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on July 21, 2012, 11:34:46 PM
Jacq, my sincere condolences to you and your family. I can't even imagine how difficult it must be to suffer such a loss while also being stricken with your own health issues.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: BKLN on July 22, 2012, 06:44:31 PM
My condolences! I am very sorry to hear about your loss.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Chuck Doan on July 23, 2012, 01:56:31 PM
Jacq, I am so sorry to hear of your loss.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Frederic Testard on July 26, 2012, 05:45:09 AM
Jacq, I logged on this morning to send you congrats about a paper describing your logging modules in the French revue Voie Libre, and I discover this incredibly sad news.
My condolences to you.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: W.P. Rayner on July 26, 2012, 10:03:53 PM
Very sorry to read this news Jacq. Please accept our sincerest condolences. You certainly have had a terrible year. Hang in there, it may not seem like it now, but things can only get better.

Respects,
Paul


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Erkut Baykal on August 01, 2012, 03:04:50 PM
Jacq my Master,

Please accept our deepest condolences, we are all sorry to hear your beloved wife's loss.
Hang in there and take care.

On Behalf of the Selcuk Team;

Abd - Erkut - Aykut - Ali


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on August 22, 2012, 06:16:47 AM

  Thank you for all the support.
  The layout will go to the US-convention in Adliswil in Switzerland on 13-14 October.
  Presently I am filling the costums papers in 5-fold to enable without duty to take the layout out of the EEC into Switzerland and out of  Switzerland int the EEC again. This has to be done manually as there is no digital version of the forms and I do not have a typewriter anymore.

Slowly interest into modeling is returning. I have started on new drawings for the next 1:35 project  ;D

Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: michael mott on August 27, 2012, 09:18:53 PM
Jacq

I am just catching up, My deepest condolences
Life is difficult sometimes, I hope that you are able to pull though these times with the resolve of friends and loved ones.

Sincerely Michael


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on October 11, 2012, 03:09:49 AM
 
  since the Intermodellbau in april, I haven't seen parts of the layout. Last week I checked everything and I must say that Alan and the crew of the Burscheider club handled everything very very wel. Only a couple of minor repairs. All is ready now to be loaded today. Alan is coming to my place and will travel together with me to Adliswil where we will meet Nick. Approx 7-8 hours drive, pending how long the costums need to inspect  and sign of the export- and import papers. I am looking forward to it.
I decided 3 weeks ago not to use the walker anymore and left the revalidation centre on my own feet, supported by my walking stick. It was heavy going, but I managed  ;D. My mobility has improved, only the neuropathic pain makes me uneasy, due to missing the stable feeling under my feet and bottom. Next month I will visit a specialised clinic to discus the possible options. One particular natural medicine is giving till now some improvement.
Really looking fwd to this weekend, where I will see Nick, Marcel and many friends from the modeling fraternity.

Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Mobilgas on October 11, 2012, 07:22:11 AM
Jacq,    Glad to here the Good New's  ;D


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: BKLN on October 11, 2012, 09:03:33 AM
Jacq,
your relentless enthusiasm and good spirits are very impressive! Good luck with the recovery!



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on October 11, 2012, 01:11:27 PM
Hi Jacq,
Good to hear you finding your feet again in more ways than one.  I don't doubt that with the crew you have on board, it will be a good get away at the show.  Have a safe trip, and I look forward to a new collection of tour shots in the near future.

Cheers,
Dan


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on October 15, 2012, 01:44:40 PM
Well , I just got back from Switzerland after a successful show . No longer being into American railways and especially standard gauge there was little to really interest or inspire me , but Jacq came away brimming with new ideas some of which he is going to incorporate into his own layout . He is particularly keen on the idea of building a log flume and wants to copy the one that is in the photos . However, he is stumped ( geddit? Oh , never mind ) as to where you can get hold of non-friction logs that go around corners . Can anyone help ?

   Shall we say that the best layout I saw this weekend ( other than Jacq's ) wasn't at the show . But as I was staying at Marcel's house that was hardly surprising .

   Next trip Ostraalier !

   Nick


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on October 16, 2012, 04:36:14 AM
Well that is the most idiotic representation of a log flume I have ever seen.  

I have never seen a "dry" v shaped flume in all the years of collecting logging books and photos. And I honestly can't recall seeing a flume of that construction used to carry logs. The forces involved in having a log come careening down a flimsy contraption like that and then hitting one of those lovely kinks, would be extreme..and the flume side would not likely withstand that sort of impact. And lets say, even if that worked..how do you get the logs out once at the bottom...what the two guys sawing just happily lift it away? WTH.  Whoever built and conjured this up is a true denizen of the "short bus".

Flumes generally carried rough cut timbers/boards IN WATER (I can't recall of one used to cary logs...ath least not of the size they cut in the western states......maybe there was something back east, or something used for pulpwood, or cord-wood)

Logs don't just slide like marbles down a little, slightly sloped trough. They tend to have a boatload of friction..especially if they have contact on TWO surfaces...and no amount of greasing is just going to make it slide down some flimsy flume. That is why there are such things in logging as SKIDROADS, and SKIDWAYS....where yarders and donkeys...or in earlier days teams of oxen or mules dragged the logs.

Before people start building sh*t, they really need to do some factual research....even if just enough to be marginally plausible...which this isn't!



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: mad gerald on October 16, 2012, 05:02:55 AM
...  ;D whoa, easy M, easy ...  ;D ...


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on October 16, 2012, 05:10:50 AM
Hey....I was being nice  ;D...otherwise I would have started in on the stone cabin....yeah, I've seen TONS of those in logging camps  ::)...oh, I could go on.  :-X ;D

...and don't get me started on the trees that look like my toilet brush. ::)


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: lab-dad on October 16, 2012, 06:02:40 AM
May be they are rubber trees so they bend around the corners?
And then at the end they pole vault into the mill!
Mj


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: mad gerald on October 16, 2012, 06:22:47 AM
...and don't get me started on the trees that look like my toilet brush. ::)

... you own a toilet brush, that looks like a tree ...  ::) ... i. e. like THIS ONE (http://thetreasurehunteruk.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/alessi-merdolino-toilet-brush-open.jpg) ... but I would have suspected something more similar to THIS (http://i-cdn.apartmenttherapy.com/uimages/dc/11-07%20brush%201.jpg) ... circus-wize ...  ;D 8)


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on October 16, 2012, 07:13:04 AM
Marc ,

   I thought you might enjoy those photos I went and took especially for you  ! I thought it best not to show you any more of the layout as you are not getting any younger and your old ticker might not take the shock .

  I'm afraid that that was the general standard of the layouts ,

  Nick


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on October 16, 2012, 07:36:24 AM
 
Quote
I'm afraid that that was the general standard of the layouts

Take into account the NMRA sponsership. ;)  8)

The quality of a much of the locomotives and other rolling material was good to outstanding.
There was a lot of attention to weathering and grafiti.

Per Sjoeberg was the top attraction with IMHO mediocre landscaping and weathering clinics. Typical NMRA standard.

For the rest I concur with Marc. Mildly said, much showed a sorry state of understanding the topics displayed.

The meeting with Alan, Marcel and Sir Nicko turned up some nice idea's wich will be worked for further discussion and execution.
Particularry the idea's in 1:35 have our interest. And my renewed and increasing interest in modelling.
Only therefore it was a rewarding convention.

Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on October 16, 2012, 01:12:48 PM
Dear Marc,
The flume isn't as bad as it looks...its just that Nick's poor flash photography has changed how it really looks ;D
It looks like a case of "I heard about these flume things once", and that might have been the limit of the research to the project.  The old logical hormones didn't appear to fire real well when they built that bit though!

Aside from that logging modelling brain fart, it was very nice to hear of some renewed spark for you Jacq, and a goo social trip.

Cheers,
Dan


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on October 16, 2012, 02:11:19 PM
Personally, I really enjoyed reading Marc's rant. He has offered far too few of late. Reminds me of the old days when he was in his prime. Besides, I always agree with him because he saves his rants for egregious transgressions.

I'm glad the convention went well and that, impossible flumes and stone logging cabins aside, Our Mighty Contingent came away with some inspiration.

Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Terry Harper on October 16, 2012, 04:08:16 PM
Sluicing Pulpwood - Maine style. Not many flumes were used here in Northeast. This one was used to sluice pulp wood (4 foot bolts) across the border from Quebec to Penobscot Lake. Yes, it was illegal.

Note the heavy construction and flat bottom.

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-spn8uk0Uj1c/UH3ZTpjiWfI/AAAAAAAABYg/qhdODh5gsIY/s808/IP-11.jpg)

Iam waiting for one of those guys in the model to catch a log in the head!  ;D

Best regards,

Terry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: artizen on October 16, 2012, 04:59:10 PM
Back in the good old days before aerial surveillance - you could build an unknown log flume across borders!!! Well found.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on October 16, 2012, 05:32:18 PM
Neat pic Terry. Thanks for posting.

Note also the size of the timbers used to build that. Quite unlike the 2x boards the modelling dork used to move his 20' long 2' diameter logs.

M


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Terry Harper on October 16, 2012, 05:49:29 PM
Hmmm...Looks like Maine is becoming the West Coast - First we have log flumes now we just had a 4.6 earth quake!

Here is a LOG SLIDE as opposed to a log flume. They use to grease the slide to help the logs get the best out of gravity. As you can see by the size of the logs this
was on the West Coast.

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-0XHT2_O9l40/UH351WMD_rI/AAAAAAAABZs/eJP6-63JzR8/s912/IMG_2082_1024px1280pxCR.jpg)


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on October 16, 2012, 07:52:25 PM
I can understand someone who doesn't know anything about old time logging, who has seen a few photos of models and thinks, "I'd like to model that too!" And I can understand how even with some research they might make a few small technical errors.

But I don't understand why so many modelers don't seem to do any research at all, when the internet makes it so easy to do. With a minimum of effort you can find tons of photos and information about darn near anything, and whatever you can't find yourself, you can at least ask around online until you find someone who knows the answer.





Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Terry Harper on October 16, 2012, 08:31:05 PM
Ray, you are so right! Now that first photo I posted of the Maine Log flume I have had in my collection for years. I have had no other information other than "hearsay" that it was illegal.
Just out of curiosity I did a Google News Paper Archive search I found this....

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-wprPuklQLjQ/UH4XOP1bmmI/AAAAAAAABaY/m4fFM9fOykY/s1280/Penobscot%2520Sluice-1.jpg)

A five minute search and I now have far, far more information than I ever thought I would ever find on this totally obscure, backwoods operation.
Sure brings into question the whole "Illegal" story about running the authorities all through the woods while the flume was destroyed!

Here is the complete article.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=-3QpAAAAIBAJ&sjid=hWYFAAAAIBAJ&pg=1736,5139610&dq=penobscot+lake+log+sluice&hl=en (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=-3QpAAAAIBAJ&sjid=hWYFAAAAIBAJ&pg=1736,5139610&dq=penobscot+lake+log+sluice&hl=en)







Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on October 17, 2012, 12:39:59 AM
Hmmm...Looks like Maine is becoming the West Coast - First we have log flumes now we just had a 4.6 earth quake!

Here is a LOG SLIDE as opposed to a log flume. They use to grease the slide to help the logs get the best out of gravity. As you can see by the size of the logs this
was on the West Coast.

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-0XHT2_O9l40/UH351WMD_rI/AAAAAAAABZs/eJP6-63JzR8/s912/IMG_2082_1024px1280pxCR.jpg)


Terry,

Neat pic, but this is not really a slide. This is a skid-way...and it appears to be either ina  Nor Cal or Sierras , Redwood operation. The ligs on this never truly slid of their own power, but rther were winched along via the use of a donkey or roading donkey/engine. If you look close, there is what appears to be one at the top of the hill where the skid-way dissapears in the distance. You cn also see what appears to be a haulback line to the right of the skidway.  (looking at it on my phone, so a bit less than perfect to see the detail :)  )


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Terry Harper on October 17, 2012, 05:50:49 AM
Thank you Russ....I stand corrected. zooming in on the photo I can see the boilers to two Donkey engines.

Remember here in Maine the technology was just a bit diffrent   ;D


(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-HUALgpFo1ck/UH6aeEebGUI/AAAAAAAABbI/TNHTRsM_t0E/s1152/HA-04.jpg)


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: BKLN on October 18, 2012, 09:20:51 AM
Now this is steampunk's wet dream!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: artizen on October 18, 2012, 03:52:45 PM
Burning Man Festival 1905?

Wonder why this idea never caught on?


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Terry Harper on October 18, 2012, 05:58:11 PM
It did catch on. Lombard was the first succesful tracked machine  (Nov. 1900) to enter production - pre-dating Holt (later to become Catapiller) by several years.  In 1918 Lombard switched to gasoline powered models. They built thier last machine - a diesel in 1936.

Here is Lombards prototype gasoline powered tractor (April 1909)

The engine is a monster 4 cylinder (9"x10) 2545 cubic inches. built in New York by Brennen. Not the barrel and cast iron house radiators.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-vbqmMf4hsNc/Tn5zwxpkqII/AAAAAAAAAbM/rrx71wxiNDw/s1024/First%2520gasoline%2520tractor.jpg)



Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Frank Forsten on October 19, 2012, 12:57:51 PM
Live and in colors: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAJ0mxp-8j8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAJ0mxp-8j8)


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on October 19, 2012, 01:30:21 PM
Cool! I didn't know anyone had ever restored one to operating condition!


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Terry Harper on October 19, 2012, 08:20:34 PM
And ... a gasoline Lombard just for good measure

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aI0D7cYYd4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aI0D7cYYd4)


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: granitechops on October 22, 2012, 01:28:22 AM
Personally, I really enjoyed reading Marc's rant. He has offered far too few of late. Reminds me of the old days when he was in his prime. Besides, I always agree with him because he saves his rants for egregious transgressions.

I'm glad the convention went well and that, impossible flumes and stone logging cabins aside, Our Mighty Contingent came away with some inspiration.

Russ

Personally I think you are all being unfair, if he had not modelled an ""IMPRESSIONIST""   :D ;D  version of a log whatsit   :'( ,  & the pics viewed worldwide, Marc would not have come out spitting feathers, & I would have not learnt so much about the subject, which although is pure logic if you think about it, did not at all, all occur to me on first sight of the 2 photos!!!  
 
EDIT, Just remembered an entry on local Freecycle at the weekend  "" offered Wrought Iron bath""   Pity the poor blacksmith!! ::)


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on November 14, 2012, 05:00:34 AM
During the show in the Sensenhammer in Leverkusen Ali, one of the crew of the Selkuck layout, repaired my Bachmann shay driveline.
It lasted during the Adliswil an Roermond shows.
It looks like the Bachmann shay and the climax reached the maximum running time and milage as the drivelines of both machines failed completely.
For the shay I have now 2 replacement bogies with the latest gears, so repair will not be hard.
The climax is another story as the cardan joint on the spline of gearbox axle has split. This means a new gearbox output shaft with new cardan joints and connecting axles to the bogies.  This gearbox axle is not appearing in the spare parts list from Bachmann. Anyone can help ?
It wil be nice to have the loco's running again during the next shows next year in Febr. March and May.

Life is picking up again and interest in modelling is returning with some nice joint ventures in 1:35 with Marcel, Nick, Alan and more under investigation. More info later.

Shortly I will start with a similar topic like the logging project, covering the building of the "Erftmühle" painting in 1:35.  

Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on November 14, 2012, 02:42:09 PM
Hi Jacq,
Bachmann have seemed to have been fairly good at replacing parts not actually listed on their spares pages.  I had similar shaft issues with my Climax (parts not listed) but they were able to post the replacements out anyway.  Check against the parts reference diagrams  http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/references_2010.php  to get the part number you need (or include a photo in your email to them).  They would likely get back to you with a parts cost.  Although, some of the parts can be a bit expensive, and if it turns out you might need several parts, it might be just as cost effective to pick up a new Climax online, and have a whole heap of spares to play with.

Hope that helps.

Cheers,
Dan


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: lab-dad on November 14, 2012, 04:10:44 PM
Looking forward to seeing more of your projects!
Marty


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on November 14, 2012, 04:52:11 PM
Looking forward to seeing mire of your projects!
Marty

  " Mire" ?  It won't be that bad !


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Alan Rees on February 15, 2013, 10:15:46 AM
Cheers from me & Jacq !!  We've just finished building "the Mill" for the exhibition tomorrow here in Lahnstein. Don't tell Nick, but we managed it record time without interference from Shropshire. Now to relax early with some Bitburger Pils - only 1 Euro per glass !

Hope you are all coming over to see it !


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on February 15, 2013, 11:44:26 AM
Cheers from me & Jacq !!  We've just finished building "the Mill" for the exhibition tomorrow here in Lahnstein. Don't tell Nick, but we managed it record time without interference from Shropshire. Now to relax early with some Bitburger Pils - only 1 Euro per glass !

Hope you are all coming over to see it !


  That's fine by me . Next time I'll just sit back and watch you get on with it whilst drinking your beer .


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Gordon Ferguson on February 15, 2013, 11:48:26 AM

  That's fine by me . Next time I'll just sit back and watch you get on with it whilst drinking your beer .


Sounds familiar !

 ;D ;D


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on February 15, 2013, 05:41:08 PM

  That's fine by me . Next time I'll just sit back and watch you get on with it whilst drinking your beer .


Sounds familiar !

 ;D ;D

  Yup , and I shall be putting it into practice next month at your house . So get them beers warmed up .


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Alan Rees on February 18, 2013, 02:26:38 PM
Lahnstein, the first exhibition for us of 2013 was a great success. The latest concepts from Marcel and Jacq were revealed as a new simple, back to basics approach.

Marcel's train:

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8111/8487039968_30e82c7df7.jpg)

and, thanks to bricks provided by Nick, Jacq's latest Mill:

(http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6030/5920331266_39fce4c943.jpg)





Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on February 18, 2013, 02:40:35 PM
Superb. Both have attained new heights. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Design-HSB on February 18, 2013, 03:15:35 PM
I have to know me very happy Jacq and Allen.

After visiting the excellent condition, with me left open the question of why are these lovingly inserted figures.
(http://www.buntbahn.de/fotos/data/8893/13IMG_0206.JPG)
Jacq's Logging Project.

(http://www.buntbahn.de/fotos/data/8893/13IMG_0203.JPG)
Jacq's Logging Project Alan and Jacq after Work in the backstage area.
I really suspect that this huge water bottles are to blame for the smooth construction of the layout?


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on May 06, 2013, 04:53:56 AM
Quote
I really suspect that this huge water bottles are to blame for the smooth construction of the layout?

The hammer in the photo had a bigger impact than the bottles  ;) ::)

Presently the layout is being prepared for the Railex 2013 show in Aylesbury 25-26 May.
Luckily Bernard was able to repair the gears on the driven bogie of the 3 cyl shay.
I am waiting for a new decoder as the wires worked loose due to movement between bogie and decoder.  >:( :-\
A new servo for a point will be installed this week, the old one stopped working in Goes so the unloading of logs was only possible from one side.
The 3 truck Climax has a new decoder and is under control again, as it sometimes started running at random !  
The Westside Lumber Plymouth Milwaukee will have its first run.

AND a start has been made with the 1:35 Feldbahn project  ;D ;D

It feels good to be back in modeling again.

Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: artizen on May 06, 2013, 06:14:20 AM
Jacq - it was really great to meet you in Melbourne. Looking forward to seeing the build of the new 1:35 Feldbahn.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on May 06, 2013, 07:08:25 AM
Great to hear Jacq...that brought a smile to my face  ;D

Cheers,
Dan


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on May 06, 2013, 09:49:26 AM
Great to hear you have started the new project.

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Chuck Doan on May 06, 2013, 09:57:32 AM
Me too! So nice to see you up and about again.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on May 06, 2013, 02:14:34 PM
Ditto. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: michael mott on May 21, 2013, 07:35:08 PM
Just catching up again!

Quote
Quite unlike the 2x boards the modelling dork used to move his 20' long 2' diameter logs.

Marc You do have a way with words. It made me smile.

Anyone looking at the historic photographs of the west coast logging and the size of those trees might just wonder how long we have left of the plundering.

Michael   


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: marc_reusser on May 22, 2013, 02:35:43 AM

Marc You do have a way with words. It made me smile.

Michael  


Thank you Michael, I have often been told (in my own mind) that I am quite mellifluous and eloquent. (though I believe my wife tends to call it "grating and verbose".)   ;D


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on May 22, 2013, 12:02:06 PM
I have always liked your wife. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: k27rgs on June 08, 2013, 01:46:04 PM
Hi Jacq.   Could you email me off-line.


 modvid@westnet.com.au



Need to discuss something that we talked about during your recent Australian visit.

cheers all

Mario Rapinett

http://www.modvid.com.au/html/body_worldwide__miniatures.html


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on June 09, 2013, 05:57:24 AM

 See your mailbox, hope you don't have to walk to far for it  ;D ;)

 keep up the good spirits
 Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: k27rgs on June 09, 2013, 07:08:40 AM
Jaqu

contact me on my mailbox   

    modvid@westnet.com.au


     regards

Mario


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on October 08, 2015, 12:40:41 AM

    due to the loss of my fine motoric abilities I like to sell the lay out or donate it to a museum or club who is able to maintain the layout
    The layout will have it's last appearance 6-8 November in München.

    Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Bill Gill on October 08, 2015, 05:41:02 AM
It is sad to hear that. Best to you going forward. I realize that shipping could be a problem, but I wonder if the new model railroad exhibit in Canada might be a place for your wonderful layout? It's called "Our Home & Miniature Land" in Mississauga, Ontario, Canada  www.miniatureland.ca
It says it will be the Canadian version of Germany's "Miniature Wonderland"
OHML's director is Jean-Louis Brenninkmeijer

There obviously is/was lots of logging in Canada, so the layout would fit the theme.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: michael mott on October 08, 2015, 11:29:23 AM
Jacq I am also sad to hear of your loss of fine motor abilities, your contributions to the world of research and modelwork will however endure so your legacy will continue. I hope that you are still able to enjoy the broader aspects of this area of our lives, at least you can still provide guidance and council to those following in your footsteps regarding the finer points of modelmaking.

Mike 


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on October 08, 2015, 11:33:09 AM
Jacq

You should talk to Dave Revelia at the The Suncoast Center for Fine Scale Modeling .

I'm sure he might be interest.  They have the Muskrat Ramble by Geoff Knott there.

And the Dolly Varden by Laurie Green  & John Hunter.

Both of display.

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on October 08, 2015, 12:36:52 PM
Jacq, I, too, am very sorry to hear your news. If you do contact Dave Revelia, please mention my name and remind him your layout appeared in the Annual. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on October 08, 2015, 01:06:12 PM
Jacq, it was good to see your name pop up on this forum again, but the reason for it wasn't what I was hoping to read.  Really sorry to hear of the health battle and the reality of it.

I can also suggest Dave Revelia would be a good person to contact as a potential curator of the layout.  He was exception to deal with when we moved Dolly Varden over to Florida, and I believe your layout would fit in quite well to the Suncoast display (providing there is room).

Wishing you all the best,
Dan


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: danpickard on October 08, 2015, 01:08:15 PM
Side note...
Jerry, it was myself and John Hunter that did Dolly Varden.  Laurie Green wasn't involved in this project.

Cheers,
Dan


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on October 08, 2015, 01:13:16 PM
Sad news. I hope you'll find another way to fill your time, and wish you the best.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Mobilgas on October 08, 2015, 05:51:53 PM
jacq,  Sent you a PM  ;D


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on October 08, 2015, 09:52:26 PM
Side note...
Jerry, it was myself and John Hunter that did Dolly Varden.  Laurie Green wasn't involved in this project.

Cheers,
Dan

Sorry Dan.  My mistake.  it was you of course who did the Dolly Varden.

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: jacq01 on August 17, 2017, 01:49:36 PM

 Finally found the emotional balance to sell the house and move to a very nice senior appartement. The layout has been donated to friends to see or it can be modified to show it in a museum. All my tools and gear has been divided between good friends who can use them.
 I still will visit friends and museums all over the world when possible as I ordered a very lightweight electric wheelchair enabling me to chase trains ( and girls )
Jacq


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ray Dunakin on August 17, 2017, 07:19:12 PM
Jacq, it's good to hear from you again!  Selling off the house, etc. must have been tough, but it sounds like you're in a good place.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: lab-dad on August 18, 2017, 06:08:44 AM
Glad you made it back!
You can always critique our stuff and keep us in line!
Did you get flames or racing stripes on the chair?
 ;)
Marty


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Bill Gill on August 18, 2017, 06:25:53 AM
Jacq, It is good to hear you are doing well and have found places for you and your layout. Yes, as Marty suggests, check in and keep the forum in line :)


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on August 18, 2017, 11:40:52 AM
I think all of us have missed hearing from you, some of us very much. It's been a long time. As other suggest, at some point the athlete evolves into the coach. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on August 19, 2017, 05:41:55 PM
Glad to have you back with us.

Jerry


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Design-HSB on August 20, 2017, 08:00:10 AM
Jacq,

I was very lucky to meet you personally at an exhibition and would be very happy if we met again.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: 1-32 on August 21, 2017, 02:23:22 AM
yes i was also very happy to meet you in March.
cheers kim


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Ronald on December 15, 2017, 08:05:05 AM

The layout has been donated to friends to see or it can be modified to show it in a museum.
Jacq

Hi all,

I also was long time away from this site.....  Good to be back!

Last year in May Jacq reached out to us (the group of friends) because he had to move his stuff out of his garage. I offered to jacq to store the layout at a place I rent to store my classic American cars. So on the 3rd of July we picked his stuff up and drove back to our part of the country where the layout would be stored.

Our drive:

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4515/39070145471_df2dd803f0_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/22wuH4M)20160703_184726 (https://flic.kr/p/22wuH4M) by Ronald-45 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52307730@N06/), on Flickr

Loading the layout:

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4600/27292792469_7ed89c7c66_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/HzLGkp)20160703_123816 (https://flic.kr/p/HzLGkp) by Ronald-45 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52307730@N06/), on Flickr

Secured for the transport:

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4736/38359865184_f41639f2f9_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/21rJktW)20160703_133518 (https://flic.kr/p/21rJktW) by Ronald-45 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52307730@N06/), on Flickr

And in my storage:

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4536/39070145071_9a886efe5b_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/22wuGWT)20160703_194229 (https://flic.kr/p/22wuGWT) by Ronald-45 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52307730@N06/), on Flickr

Which stores 3 cars:

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4562/38359958234_9eeaa310ff_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/21rJP9f)20171202_145706 (https://flic.kr/p/21rJP9f) by Ronald-45 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52307730@N06/), on Flickr

What will happen to the layout? I don't know. For now it is save and maybe we will revive it for a future exhibition.

Grtz, Ronald.


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: Mobilgas on December 15, 2017, 09:58:58 AM
You can always ship it to the US ill give it a good home on my new On30 layout;D


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on December 16, 2017, 02:28:18 PM
Many is the time that I helped lug that layout in and out of shows , seeing how quick we could set it up . I think about three quarters of an hour is the quickest . Hopefully it will go to a good home . It is getting a bit tired now and could do with a bit of a make over .

  Nick


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on December 17, 2017, 02:59:47 AM
I could say the same about myself! -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: shropshire lad on December 17, 2017, 03:22:36 AM
I could say the same about myself! -- Russ

 Russ,
   
    I am sorry to be the one who has to tell you , but you are way passed the "bit of a makeover " stage . It would have to be a fully restoration job to make any significant difference to you . Which leads on to the next question , is there enough money in the budget to finance such an undertaking ? And at your ripe old age , would the cost v. benefits justify such a huge investment in time and manpower ?

  I think that to get a clearer idea of the feasibility of such a project we would need to get a surveyors report .

  I hope I haven't spoilt your Sunday !

   Nick


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: finescalerr on December 17, 2017, 02:41:45 PM
Sorry, Nick, I didn't have time to read your whole post because I must resume satisfying about a dozen beautiful girls in thong bikinis, each eager to cater to my every whim. -- Russ


Title: Re: Jacq's Logging Project Discussion
Post by: TRAINS1941 on December 23, 2017, 04:29:02 PM
Nick it would look very nice at.

Suncoast Center for Fine Scale Modeling

I'm sure Dave could bring it back to life.

Jerry