I thought this might interest you. I think this is not only an example of great modelling, but also a thought provoking subject.
http://www.kartonbau.de/wbb2/thread.php?threadid=11054
This is fantastic! Yes it makes you think, stop you're whining about I can't find the detail parts I looking for! Scratch build them! I love that its paper, but what I saw could be done in styrene just the same. I love the Tires, the tire rack, and the ease of which he built it, one step at a time. What scale is it? It looks larger than 1:24, but I saw that it was as long as his keyboard. Really doesn't matter though, it's a work of art. Thanks for the link.
Gil
On page 3, the builder tells that the length of the truck is 35 cm (14"). It's not really an answer to the question since I don't know the length of the original but it gives a clue about the size of the model.
Well, in fact it's in the title : 1:25. Kit by a manufacturer from Poland named Renova, the last one in the page linked there : http://www.renova-model.com.pl/index.php?f=modele
And here is another thread about the building of the same kit, but with more building hints.
http://www.kartonbau.de/wbb2/thread.php?threadid=4149
I regularly visit the Kartenbau website. Marc told me about it a couple of years ago. I have found some magnificent examples of fine modeling there in the Vehicles section. (The Architecture [structure] modeling is mediocre so don't waste your time.) I previously have posted examples from that site. The current thread I have been following is http://kartonbau.de/wbb2/thread.php?threadid=21375 (http://kartonbau.de/wbb2/thread.php?threadid=21375). I urge all of you to check it out. It is a 1:25 scale narrow gauge locomotive.
As Gil suggests, the paper modelers, mostly from East Europe, use paper in the same way we use styrene. The advantage is that you may use a laser to design a kit for yourself from whatever paper works best.
Most commercial vehicle kits are 1:25 scale, whether military or railroad or industrial, and the more critical modelers sometimes mention that the quality of some paper parts falls short of excellent. Sometimes they scratchbuild new parts from different paper. The best modelers also often buy laser cut aftermarket parts (when available) to replace or augment those from the original kit they find of sub-standard quality or things missing altogether. A "kit", by the way, is simply a book whose pages are of varying weights of cardstock. The parts may or may not be laser cut or printed in color depending on the manufacturer. In all cases, painted models blow away those where the builder is satisfied with printed parts.
The results can equal anything you have seen in brass or plastic. I will post a few photos here if you want.
Russ
Please, post some, Russ.
When I read your comment, I remembered this link to paper built locomotives you had posted a moment ago. Very, very impressive.
I am seriously thinking about some O scale paper detailing for my current project.
Add a second request for pic's, ................ this stuff is simply sublime - marvellous. I just wish it was easier to read the text in order to glean techniques and tenets, the pic's are great but leave important questions unanswered.
At least to my tiny mind.
I often look at that website, too. These paper modellers have made an art and science out of turning 2d shapes into 3d structures, which is always useful knowledge for model building and lasering. Funny how the paper kit seems to be an Eastern European passion. I guess in the years of not having access to good plastic kits, they made the most of an inexpensive medium. Can't keep a good man down.
Dave
I never cease to be amazed at the things being accomplished by skilled paper modelers! Truly impressive, and very informative to see how even the most complex shapes can be built up.
Here is what really attracted my attention to the 1:25 narrow gauge locomotive build for which I posted the link: The drivers. Look carefully at these laminated beauties -- paper soaked with CA and enhanced with putty. Then check out how they look after paint. Yes, the treads are painted! -- Russ
QuoteThese paper modellers have made an art and science out of turning 2d shapes into 3d structures
Many of these models are built like the originals, formed from flat sheet or cast. He describes the construction of a cast pipe junction made from putty. The tread of the wheels is painted on with automotive body putty applied in one go while swinning the wheel by hand on a suitable size drill. He than sands and polish by hand with the wheel chucked in a dremel. Just simple materials and handtools, I love it....... ;D ;D
Jacq
I formerly assembled all my paper parts with white glue, due to the extra time it allows for adjustment. When I switched to slow curing CA I noticed the paper absorbs the excess glue so 1) glue smears disappear as if by magic, and 2) paper becomes extremely strong and 3) can be sanded and shaped without fuzz or delamination. I think paper is seriously underutilized as a modelling medium by all but the paper kit guys.
Dave
So, Dave, how feasible would it be to laser cut a bunch of scratchbuilding items from paper from a marketing and profit standpoint? I'm thinking about doors, windows, brick walls (varying thickness bricks, probably with adhesive backing that would stick onto a subwall representing mortar), cement stuff like sidewalks or structure materials, even parts for vehicles (cars, boats, rolling stock, locos)?
Considering the rapidly declining hobby market, topnotch paper items conceivably could replace some plastic counterparts and certainly could compete with many wood parts. And, by paper, I include that resin paper you have referred to.
Russ
It would be great.
A technical question about the laser cutting process : would it be easy, when the drawings are made, to change the scale of the provided items and have the laser cutter do the work in the new scale?
Hi Russ
Marketing and profit... hm... I admit ... not really subjects I've got a lot of expertise in and I'm well out of the main stream of this hobby in most respects. So I can't comment in any meaningful way. I could make some sarcastic observations though! ;D
I choose my subject matter out of personal interest or a particular modelbuilding need. I really enjoy designing scratchbuilding accessories and I've been adding them slowly to my little assortment of things, like the cardstock letters and fire escapes. Not getting rich but I thrive on the feedback.
Re: cardstock windows and doors, these are available from some of the other laserers, and of course there are the Tichy and Grandt line products in plastic. All are fine products, I see no need to add to the selection of what is already available.
I'd be interested in suggestions though. I like your idea about separate sticky bricks. And I do have plans for my HO brick wall designs and a few other new things which I will post as I develop the prototypes.
Hi Frederick
Changing scales is very easy in theory. The graphic is scaled up or down by a certain percent to achieve the new scale.
In practice, its not always so simple. This is because some things stay constant, like kerf (width of laser beam) and material thickness. So a perfect O scale window might just end up as a burned out frame in HO unless things are adjusted. Or a nice HO window would have thick parts in O. Or a kit with tab and slot connections is a problem because the slots in the graphic are for a particular material thickness, and will need to be sized independently of the rest of the graphic. Generally speaking, its much easier to go from small to large.
Sorry I don't seem to have simple answers this time!
Dave
Aside from the Crystal River Strathmore doors and windows, I am unaware of any other seperately available items of top quality, at least in 1:48. As for the styrene products, Crystal River's blow them away because the dimensions are so much more accurate and, of course, because they are built up and that makes painting so much easier. Grandt's dies are wearing out and it is my understanding that, as they go, there are no plans to replace them.
It seems a wide assortment of laser cut paper products could help to revolutionize scratchbuilding. Nobody will get rich from selling them but someday they may make up the highest quality assortment of details ... assuming one or more guys take the plunge.
Russ
Unc
Rusty Stumps Scale Models now makes O-Scale windows and doors in paper. I have never used them but I think Young Martin Jones may have at one time.
Jerry
as Crystal Rivers was not able to supply me with the windows needed in short time, I used Rusty Stumps windows.
Very well done and a very good price. I have used the non reinforced paper ones. After a coat of Humbrol primer, they are painted with Vallejo colours.
Jacq
Thought you may be curious enough to see these? - all from paper - and a bit of thick paper - and a little bit of thin balsa.................. but pretty much mainly from paper.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi180.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fx248%2FAndismodelpages%2FBelle%2520Lane%2FNo6-Stellas-a-1.jpg&hash=e7dcb83e926fa318958bc860d9acd7371f919c26)
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi180.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fx248%2FAndismodelpages%2FBelle%2520Lane%2FSantos-frontage-011.jpg&hash=f133f3f1c1c172c853efb22d856aeafe2dbb93d5)
Santo's Restaurant slash Coffee shop................ 1/24th, Gn15 or 1mm=1inch.....Take your pick, not deadly accurate I know but my child's eye is more than happy with the scaling. And I know they don't compare to what's to be seen elsewhere on these here pages, but these have to be robust enough to be "played" with, and they're really just distant backdrops for a little Gn15 layout I'm trying to build one day!!!!!
Oh Dear......... now it appears I've just posted those in order to make excuses for them??? Sorry about that - just trying to join in a bit!!?
Beautiful work, some of the best brick I've seen in that scale. No excuses necessary. Please show more!
Dave
That drive wheel looks fantastic!
Andi, I love your building! Excellent work. I'm especially curious about the curtains in the main window. How did you make those?
Andi, I think you have convinced me to build with individual paper bricks rather than embossed sheets. Also, I am very pleased that you and a few others have tried building with paper and obtained such good results. There is something very satisfying about transforming a basic material available virtually anywhere into something that looks as though it were made of something else altogether.
Maybe I should start a modeling challenge: Build a (simple) model from paper. The only guy I know who would balk is Marty. He built a pretty nice structure flat but just didn't feel comfortable with the medium.
Russ
Good idea, Russ. And if Marty grumbles against it, it will increase the others' chances to win (nothing... - I add it before you ask : what?).
Andi, this is a great looking building. Sometimes I even consider the possibility to insert some brick buildings into my all wood modelling when I see all this fine work.
Guys, here is a link to a USA based paper model maker who is giving away a pretty nice model in either HO or O scale for download well worth a look. Clever models is the name of the company. Pat
http://kitforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3588
Andi: Wonderful building front. Didn't you have an SBS on this project on one of the other forums? Perhaps you could republish it here. I expect there are many here who would value seeing it.
Russ:
That paper driver is outrageous. You say the tread is painted. Do you have any sense what he used for that purpose?
Paul
I think those pre-printed paper models with the fancy texture graphics are a lousy half measure and steer a serious model in the wrong direction. The typical North American mindset with these paper models is they can be slammed together and plopped onto a layout big, cheap and fast. Usually when any criticism is offered, they are "fine for background model if you don't look too closely". :-\
The best paper models utilize paper as a structural medium in the same way that wood and styrene are used in conventional modeling, to form a 3 dimensional structure that is then painted and weathered. Like Andi's beautiful model. That's paper at its best.
Dave
thought I would show another example of a 48th scale model where the buildings are 90% paper.
enjoy
Bernard
Paul, here's a rough translation of the paint he uses: "I use Ölemail from Humbrol, or (increasingly frequently) Model Master. I do not use acrylic paints because I somehow do not like."
I have used ModelMaster and assume you have. They have a "Metalizer" series that you apply, let dry, buff, then spray with a clear coat. It's very good and I think part of the reason he got such an outstanding finish.
Bernard, did you build the lighthouse?
Russ
Hi Russ,
yes I built the model from scratch, with the objective of securing a major award. I was fortunate to win Best in Show at the Australian Narrow Gauge Convention.
the model is fully detailed with a complete interior, including an office and a complete workshop & lighting. the purpose of the building is the servicing of the channel markers, some of which you can see on the deck, therefore a complete "workshop" is incorporated into the interior.
the tower is also completely detailed with all framing exposed, a sprial staircase with 180 brass treads. The lantarn Cupola is build from brass with a copper dome. A complete mirror assembly is located at the light level into which a discharge lamp has been fitted.
water is plaster painted with oils, and the "beach" formed with very fine sand & natural stones for "boulders" Since this is "Seal Point Lighthouse" there are a couple of seals on the rocks. By the way the dinghies are also scratchbuilt from paper.
Have fun
Bernard
Really great thread. and some beutiful work by you guys that posted their builds. Bernard, I would love to see more pics of the details on this build.
Dave.....how about laser cutting from paper all the individual exterior and interior steel plates, "L" & "T" beams for the pontoons on a 1/35 Whippet ;) ;D ;D ;D.......the same parts for a MK-V would be equally great. ;D
MR
If you draw them in Adobe or Corel, I can cut them.
Whippet in 1/15 scale out of cardboard. Check it out.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v116/bigtank/?start=620
That's sweet. Nice painting and weathering as well.
Thanks for the link.
Bernard, you MUST post more photos of the light house! -- Russ
Dave, would you be able to cut from a pdf?
Frederic,
On the pdf, the short answer is no.
Laser cutting works with vector based graphics, like Corel or Adobe. It interprets vector lines below a certain width as cut lines, which it traces precisely. And vector lines above a certain width, it will raster engrave. Pixels are raster-engraved. Pixels are fine for surface engraving but not cutting.
However, if the .pdf originated as a vector graphic, and depending on how it was saved, I might be able to convert it back to vector format and use it for cutting. Otherwise, its pixels to the laser.
I hope that was clear. Did you have anything in particular that you are considering laser cutting?
Dave
Dave, I still have in mind my pagoda project with lots of wood adjustment, plus as a mind who loves the travel as well as the destination, if I know something may be done, I become more creative.
And if the pdf comes from a postcript style file, with commands such as "set linewidth", "moveto", "lineto"?
(In fact, I can directly write the postcript...)
Hi Frederic
I'm not sure but the best way to find out is if you sent me the file, or a portion of it. If its usable in vector, I'd be happy to make some test parts and send them to you free. That way you can see if this is something you'd like to pursue. Of course any files I get are kept confidential and erased at the request of the sender.
Dave
Thank you, Dave. I'll have to think a bit of it, but I'm definitely interested by your proposal.
Can you PM me some hints about the pricing for custom laser cutting?
Dave, would CAD files also work for you? Can you convert them to the necessary format? Some guys here probably have CAD programs. -- Russ
Hi Russ
I don't know, I never tried to download or work with a CAD file. But I think at least some CAD graphics software has an option to turn a CAD file into a blueprint type vector drawing, which I can then open in Adobe and work from. My friend who works in Rhino has sent me files to cut using that method.
Lasering is pretty much 2D, plus some engraving. Its up to the guy who gets the parts to work them into 3D. Which is why the methodology behind these East European paper models is so interesting to me.
Hi Frederic,
I sent you an email.
Dave
Thank you, Dave. I got it. Now I am in the 'thinking process'. People often call it a nap...
Dave, that is why I like paper modeling, too. I can design 2-D parts in Auto CAD and build them into a 3-D model. And special parts that need cutting go fast on the laser.
In contemporary digital recording, ribbon microphones, a 1930s design, have made a huge comeback because their naturally smooth and silky tone compliments the "grainy" sound of digital so well. For the same reason, I suspect the use of laser cut cardstock and resin board are due for a modeling comeback.
It is doubtful the trend would start with railroad guys because modeling is such a secondary interest for most of them and because the majority is rather uncreative. Rather it may gain its first foothold in military modeling or perhaps some other areas. Unless somebody like you creates card models that the Great Unwashed perceive as a better choice than plastic or wood.
Russ
Russ
I seriously can't imagine any circumstances where paper would make a comeback as a mainstream model medium in the USA especially among armor modelers. Plastic, brass and resin cover everything.
Dave
Card can be equal to or better than wood, styrene, or resin for some structure, rolling stock, or scenic components. It will never replace styrene as long as the market is strong enough to justify the tooling costs but, considering the dismal state of the craft hobbies, expensive mass production may not be around forever. I'm not saying it's an either/or proposition. But I do think if kits move to mixed media construction, card will have a shot for some things. -- Russ
Its true, card is great stuff and extremely useful, extremely underrated, for miniature work. I have a few all-cardstock mini kit designs I'll take commercial this year, then we'll know a little more if the US MRR market is ready for such a thing.
Dave
My guess is that your timing will be premature, Dave. If the quality of your mini-kits is terrific, some people will buy them but most probably will ignore them. In five or ten years, though, it is possible that some plastic or even resin stuff will disappear and create a vacuum for card. The price of wood kits has been rising and someday card may become preferable, if for no other reason than cost.
If you expect little or nothing in return for your efforts for a few years, eventually you may find yourself a "pioneer" in the cardstock field like Grandt was in plastic details. One never knows, do one?
Russ
Hi Russ
OK I'm looking forward to that time in ten years when Craftsmen are Craftsmen again. :D Meanwhile I'm small enough to thrive on a very small market niche. I'll leave the mainstream to Bar Mills and the rest.
Dave
Please let us know what you produce. If possible, make it available in 1:87 and 1:48.
Incidentally, I saw either an ad or a description of your New York brick building kit in that online model railroading publication. Considering the high quality of your products, you might consider a small ad in my books if you have a little extra in your budget. Or at least let's figure out a way to give you a little banner ad or something on this forum. Remember, there are thousands of lurkers here, all interested in modeling yet few aware of your product line.
Russ
Hi Russ
Your offer is very thoughtful, thank you! At the moment I don't have enough to offer to make advertising worthwhile. Maybe later this year I will think more about an advert.
When I have demo versions of the all cardstock kits done, I'll show them here.
Dave
Preview photo of my first laser cut all-paper mini kit in HO scale.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi655.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu276%2FDaveKrakow%2FDeskandChair2.jpg&hash=2566c11ed2f0003f814aa9110ba7eb32b92dc4e5)
More later.
Dave
Whoa!...Very Cool. Crikey, that's small! Builds up clean.
Just out of curiosity, can you give me a rundown of the various thicknesses of the impregnated papers and other such stuff that are available/you use.
Marc
Holy moly! That's amazing!
I know you are good but that's over the top! And thank you for pioneering a great product in a "novel" material. -- Russ
I love it too, Dave. Do you have plans to offer the music instruments visible on your web site?
Thats beautiful!
Any plans for O scale furniture?
-Marty
I like that office suite. I would buy one.
Thanks everyone for all the feedback. When I have a few more sets designed and the instructions written and illustrated, I will put them online for sale. In keeping with the whole "mini" concept, they will be inexpensive.
Marc
The card material I use is about .015". Its very strong, and can be doubled up for thickness if the part isn't too fiddly. For example, you can see the seam in the chair seat where two pieces are sandwhiched. The other standard thicknesses I work with are .008" paper (flimsy but great for surface details like hinges) and .03" micro plywood.
Frederic
The antique piano on my website is too complicated and the wrong era for an HO kit, but I have an idea for a player piano you might find in a saloon, and maybe some other string instruments.
Marty
O scale is a possibility for the future. I need to source thicker material or adapt the designs to the scale.
Dave
I'm a bit surprised that it's easier to go from small to large. It's the opposite for our kits. we make them in O and scale everything back from there.
Many of the items mentioned in this thread are things we have created but not laser cut. If any one wants to partner up on a product, lets talk.
As Dave said and I concur none of us are getting rich doing this. It's not a trivial thing to create something new. there needs to be market demand and support.
We put up a formerly retired kit for free download for the holidays. It will be available until Dec 26th. It's our rail maintenance shed in O and HO scale. It was very popular and i think you'll enjoy it. Go to the freebies section of our web page.
Enjoy and have a happy holiday.
Thom & Dave
Clever models
If any of you guys is interested in entering a model in the Challenge for the December 2011 Modelers' Annual and you don't want to scratchbuild, Thom's freebie might be a good starting point. Suggestion: Print a couple of copies on a textured paper from Michaels Craft Stores or an art store. Use something like sketch paper with a slightly pebbled surface for more weathered wood; Strathmore Bristol Vellum for newer paint. Cut it into individual boards and assemble it board by board as though it were wood. Check out his texture sheets while you're there. -- Russ
Great idea Russ and thanks Thom and Dave at Clever Models.
Anders ;D
Dave the desk and chair are amazing. I have a steel bridge arted out. I'd love to see what it would look like with your skills behind it. I've said it before on other forums. Your doing the best work out there by a wide margin. you set the bar.