Encouraged by Russ I thought I could post some pics of my latest work. And it fits better into this category as it represents a « Dürkopp 80hp » artillery tractor of the German Army in WWI.
All files are now done. It is in 1/35 scale and a small serie will be produced by a French company (as already my Büssing tractor).
Meanwhile I have learned a lot more about CAD design – in particular to combine parts on request of my producer to reduce the opportunities for copyists. Never imagined that :'(
Hope you like it!
Cheers, peter
This model will really be worth seeing. It must have taken weeks to draw. Please post photos if you or anyone else builds it. -- Russ
Quote from: finescalerr on March 04, 2024, 11:44:53 AMPlease post photos if you or anyone else builds it. -- Russ
'IF'. A soul destroying concept for a kit designer!
Most modellers have a collection of unbuilt kits, and it's a sad fact that most of the kits I send out never actually get built. That's the reality that keeps Mr Airfix and Mr Tamiya in business but to a small manufacturer it's a bit sad at a personal level (although it keeps me going too).
Very interesting prototype. The rear wheels in particular seem rather complex.
Quote from: Lawrence@NZFinescale on March 04, 2024, 11:51:41 AMMost modellers have a collection of unbuilt kits, and it's a sad fact that most of the kits I send out never actually get built.
At least one will be built - my own example ;D That is also the case with my «Büssing». Although the kit is very detailed there is a lot to improve yet. I do this with my own etchings and some scratch building as you may see here:
Frame.jpg
One of the aspects considered positive is that it's not my intention to earn money with this hobby. I do what I would like to have as scalemodel on my desk, someone does the printing for me and as a small financial contribution, I get some small payment. This is far better, then printing my parts at Shapeways that costs a lot and the results aren't useful.
Cheers, Peter
Simply beautiful to look at!
Thanks Frithjof, that's really nice and friendly! But compared to your outstanding work I feel very inadequate gluing bits of plastic together!!!
Here is a suggestion, Peter: Feel adequate. Your modeling skills are terrific. -- Russ
You have chosen some really special prototypes for your models. I am impressed by the realization in the model.
Bernhard
Thanks all! Well, it's really something special, having researched those strange vehicles for about forty years, and suddenly there is an interest on the (...very small) market.
BTW, there was also a 100hp Dürkopp tractor, that would have surpassed all! It was a truly amazing sight and my alltime favorite:
(https://images15.fotki.com/v1685/photos/4/3824994/16604406/100hpVerdeck-vi.jpg)
Unfortunately, I have no idea, how the monstrous rear wheel was positioned within the frame. There must have been some modifications not only in relation to the frame (due to the wheel's bigger diameter) but also in relation to the transmission, as the chain sprocket has moved above the frame, and much more!
Alas, according to the producer's philosophy to bring out the most reliable prototypes, the big Dürkopp was not an option – sadly!
And suddenly things went very fast. The producer posted the test sample on his FB site. It would seem that everything fits together rather well...
(https://images49.fotki.com/v1679/photos/4/3824994/16604406/Yury_2-vi.jpg)
(https://images15.fotki.com/v1685/photos/4/3824994/16604406/Yury_3-vi.jpg)
I am quite pleased with the final outcome !
I'm quite pleased with it, too. -- Russ
Great looking beast!
What is that big hump over the engine on the prototype, by the way?
Quote from: Hauk on March 07, 2024, 11:15:38 PMWhat is that big hump over the engine on the prototype, by the way?
If I understand correctly, you are talking abvout the enlarged bonnet and radiator on the 100hp version?!
Already back then attempts were made to update existing parts or components without great effort. After the order of the German high command, the existing 80hp design (my scale model) was adapted to the requirements of the much bigger engine (100hp) by simply adding a second floor of bonnet parts and by enlarging the radiator upwards. This was partly made with already produced radiators for the 80hp version. You can make out the point in the grille very well (picture at post #9).
(https://images14.fotki.com/v1689/photos/4/3824994/16604406/100hpHump1-vi.jpg)
A beautiful model!
What a great model!
The 100hp tractor is quite a beast, with a very unique appearance.
Thanks gents!
There is a long way to go before I will/can start with the Dürkopp. I am a very slow modeler, and as I am would like to do this specific vehicle found by American troops in 1919 I have to dismantling one or another part (e.g. the bonnet). But a vehicle in rainy conditions could be a new challenge... But first: I have to build the Büssing now!
(https://images49.fotki.com/v1679/photos/4/3824994/16604406/7184478881_a7d025d242_h-vi.jpg)
When I look at those photos Hannibal's elephants and Star Wars AT Walkers ponderously slogging through the mud come to mind.
The thing that gets me is the crank handle to start the thing!!
I am often astonished over absolutely perfectly built models presented in various social media i.e. facebook. Yes, it will always be easier to talk one's own successes but to me failures accompany us at every step in our hobby and those are the experiences that move us forward. Nevertheless, at the moment they are rather boring , so here a new chapter in the story of a (to some extent) novice in the matter of 3D designing.
Looking from the distance, progress on my «Büssing» doesen't look so bad (and I am still happy with the subject)!
(https://images20.fotki.com/v1684/photos/4/3824994/16426959/1000018247-vi.jpg)
But I wonder what happened here:
(https://images49.fotki.com/v1680/photos/4/3824994/16426959/1000018249-vi.jpg)
...and here:
(https://images12.fotki.com/v1686/photos/4/3824994/16426959/IMG_20240320_170448-vi.jpg)
The printed parts are often warped (dash board / cabin floor/ rear wall) or full of cracks. I have read, that it's able to righten such problemn in heating up the resin parts in hot water. But what means hot water : 50°C, 60C° or even boiling water?
Hi Peter
Your experience is typical.
Unexpected artefacts are a bit of a hazard in 3D printing, especially if pushing the envelope a bit. They tend to be particularly noticeable on mechanical and fabricated things, less obvious on the organic. Quite a bit of my time is spent optimising models to address this.
Such things are mainly due to the forces involved in parting the model from the vat membrane at every layer. Those forces (I'm told) are a 4th power factor of the area (ie double the area and the forces increase by 16). Layer area is constantly changing in prints like yours (and mine), sometimes significantly, which can cause distortion and layer shifts. All of this also imparts stresses to the cured plastics, which can cause distortion over time. Ironically, tiny models can often be easier than large models as a result. I think some commercial processes work a bit differently and thus produce a more inherently stable product.
Much is made of the rigidity of the 3D printer Z axis, but I'm unconvinced. The reality is that many models are relatively flexible during printing, which makes the structure of the machine moot. Model orientation and support has a huge bearing on all of this, but every approach has it's pros and cons and the best option is often something of a compromise. More support will generally give better shape fidelity, but then you need to deal with extra supports - which may, or may not, be problematic in each case.
Choice of resin is very important and the condition of the vat membrane also has a significant impact.
Resins vary, but you can generally straighten them with hot water. Boiling is often fine, but the model can get too soft. Frustratingly, heating can be a short term fix, with parts reverting over time. I imagine you need to heat sufficiently to relieve all the stresses in the print for long term success. In my experience best results for this are achieved by having a jig to hold the model in the desired position during heating and cooling. I have 3D printed such jigs, but obviously they need to be of sufficient mass and strength so that it is the model that moves rather than the jig. There are heat resistant resins that probably make better jigs too. While I haven't made a study of it I suspect a good jig might sometimes over do the correction so that when the model relaxes it assumes the desired form.
Personally, when it comes to modelling sheet metal or thin section I prefer to go to etched brass. 3D prints are fantastic, but not the solution to all problems. Most significant to me is that they do not handle sustained forces well. A resin bogie with pinpoint axles will tend to spread due to the outward force due to the pinpoints. This will obviously depend on the weight on the vehicle as well. For this reason I used an etched structure for bogies with a 3D printed cosmetic sideframe. Mixed media can be very useful in stabilising prints.
After reading all of the above, I'm glad I chose a laser instead of a 3-D printer. As Clint Eastwood muttered in (I think) Dirty Harry, "A man's got to know his limitations." -- Russ
Quote from: finescalerr on March 21, 2024, 04:37:42 PMAfter reading all of the above, I'm glad I chose a laser instead of a 3-D printer. As Clint Eastwood muttered in (I think) Dirty Harry, "A man's got to know his limitations." -- Russ
Dirty Russ...?
It's not that bad. Every medium and technique has it's pros and cons. Plenty of pros to resin.
Hello Lawrence
First, I really appreciate that you took the time to answer my questions in detail!
Quote from: Lawrence@NZFinescale on March 21, 2024, 10:06:19 AMIronically, tiny models can often be easier than large models as a result.
More support will generally give better shape fidelity, but then you need to deal with extra supports - which may, or may not, be problematic in each case.
I hope that I will not be repeating myself, but this is an point I feel is most important. As I wrote before, I have to combine parts on request of my producer to reduce the opportunities for copyists. This results in rather large resin parts.
(https://images12.fotki.com/v1681/photos/4/3824994/16426959/Test_1-vi.jpg)
As I was told, the market for such rare niche products is highly competitive, especially taking into account that reserach work is is extremely time-consuming (Ok, I have studied these tractors for about 30 years, so that's quite some basis). Obviously, in this way it's almost impossible to do a scan of some parts to create a new product in a simple manner.
QuotePersonally, when it comes to modelling sheet metal or thin section I prefer to go to etched brass.
According to the producer's philosophy these kits are done strictly without etched parts. I agree completely with you, that some parts would better be done with sheet metal or etched brass. So, for my own kit I am building now and fort he «Dürkopp» I have already ordered a sheet of PE parts.
(https://images49.fotki.com/v1680/photos/4/3824994/16426959/PE_1-vi.jpg)
You may see, I m subject to significant rigidities in many cases, but on the other hand this way I get my own model printed.
What I will do now is trying to righten those warped parts with (almost) boiling water with the help of a good jig as you describe it further above !
I get it Peter, I really do.
Hi gents
In the course of discussions my two projects are now totally jumbled up. So I will move along this thread, as both vehicles are essentially military tractors.
While the « Dürkopp » is en route to the customers, I am still struggling with my first own kit, the «Büssing».
The following pictures show how many parts have been broken due to the very brittle resin and had to be repaced with plastic parts. In many cases I have to add tiny parts made of brass, as only soldering allowed sufficient stability (i.e. etched chains).
And yes, even for myself progress is very slow. I managed to build the mounting brackets of the ventilator only after five unsuccesful attempts or in other words: after two weeks...
(https://images34.fotki.com/v1690/photos/4/3824994/16426959/Side1B-vi.jpg)
(https://images20.fotki.com/v1684/photos/4/3824994/16426959/Side2B-vi.jpg)
Just one small personal remark yet. As for all my works there is a weird thing - I have to vistie the place where the origin had been photographed. Some might
consider it a quirk, but form e it is essential to see the area where all that happened. So as it happened, on the way to the Netherlands last week, my family and I passed the small village «Oberkail» where the photo was taken in 1919 ::)
Even at this stage we can tell it will be a terrific model. -- Russ
Quote from: Peter_T1958 on April 29, 2024, 11:44:51 AM... how many parts have been broken due to the very brittle resin and had to be replaced with plastic parts. In many cases I have to add tiny parts made of brass, as only soldering allowed sufficient stability (i.e. etched chains).
Looking good.
Mixed media is the way to go in my view. No one material or method has all of the answers. Manufacturer's will generally try to use fewest materials on economic grounds of course.
Resins are not created equal either. If you have the option, there are resins that will be less brittle and produce more robust parts. There may be a trade off in print speed, cost or some other print parameter though.
The result of your efforts is definitely remarkable. And I can well understand your fascination for the research.
Bernhard
Is that the transmission on the front below the radiator?
Quote from: Ray Dunakin on April 30, 2024, 09:50:32 PMIs that the transmission on the front below the radiator?
It's a
cable winch, to pull the heavy artillery pieces into position. It could work in both ways – to the front and (over a
large pulley) to the rear.
(https://images12.fotki.com/v1686/photos/4/3824994/16426959/1000019781B-vi.jpg)
So far that is the most impressive view of your intricate model. -- Russ
Peter, it is obvious that you are an absolute master at translating you extensive research, and your experience with CAD and 3D resin printing into some amazing and extremely unique models. As I have been learning the processes and methods required to produce even fairly simple 3D prints I am truly mesmerized by your creations.
Stuart
Hi Gents
At least, all that boring breaking off, patching, glueing, filling, sanding and cursing finally leads to an outcome.
Primer:
Zusammenbau_10klein.jpg
Preshading:
Zusammenbau_12klein.jpg
First coat of paint:
Zusammenbau_13klein.jpg
Hmm, all that pre-shading turned out as obsolete. Perhaps, the difference between the brown primer and the black shading was too little. So I have to work more with washings and filters.
Still a long way to go, but now I can start already with the funny part: weathering!
Hope you like it!
Cheers, Peter
Peter,
I had to look up 'preshading'. It's hard to tell if it worked or not from the pictures. Maybe green color wasn't thin enough?
Pre-Shading seems to be a rather model-making related technique like drybrushing to get a special impression to the naked eye. I'm not sure if it is necessary or even helpful for taking pictures of models, but of course it dpends on what you're after.
Cheers,
Volker
Hi Volker
'Preshading' is a term originally borrowed from the aircraft modelers. There it was used to darken panel lines and to break up large areas i.e. surfaces of wings or to recreate highly stressed skin on the fuselage. Later, military modelers adopted this technique on tanks etc.
You are certainly right, when you assume, that the color wasn't thin enough! But moreover it was a rather ambitious goal trying that on such complex surfaces with all details already fitted. It was simply impossible to put the right amount of color at the right spot and even in the right thickness. To be honest, I was just happy to get the color where it should be in the midst of ol those rods, nuts and bolts.
It was an attempt, that failed, but there are more ways for darkening and braking up the surfaces... ::)
In many cases, pre-shading can look good but not necessarily realistic ... maybe similar in that way to a woman's makeup. -- Russ
Quote from: Peter_T1958 on May 23, 2024, 04:06:35 AMPerhaps, the difference between the brown primer and the black shading was too little.
I think that is exactly the problem. I have used black preshading on light grey primer, and even then the effect is quite subtle.
Love the models, by the way!
The first steps look good. I can imagine how difficult it is to paint every angle of such a complex assembled model.
Bernhard
Thank you very much, gents! After a coat of post-shading (as the pre-shading didn't work ;) ) I was trying doing some sctratches, washes and pigments on the frame. I am very rusty with my painting attempts - a lot has vanished since my last project. Slowly but steadily ...at this pace, it could take 10 years to complete the job! ;D
IMG_20240528_163859~2.jpg
BTW, the wheels and other details have not yet processed.
Peter, It's lloking good!
You're making progress. I know how you feel when techniques that once seemed natural, now after not using them for some time, require more effort to reproduce. But hang in there. Sometimes along the way new methods seamlessly join in with rediscovered existing ones and new effects add to the finished results.
I think it looks quite good already in that state! For sure you're on the right way. I think those things must have been quite oily and greasy?
Volker
I agree with Volker. I already looks extremely good. -- Russ
Quote from: finescalerr on May 28, 2024, 11:51:20 AMI agree with Volker. I already looks extremely good. -- Russ
Ever the modest chap, eh , Russ !
Whoops! I forgot the "t". Nick, go stand in the corner! -- Russ
Quote from: Hydrostat on May 28, 2024, 11:08:21 AMFor sure you're on the right way. I think those things must have been quite oily and greasy?
Volker
It must have been quite oily but also wet and dirty, and I am working on that. The original was photographed by an American soldier on a rainy day in February 1919 at Oberkail (Germany). It stood there diabeled and looted of all useful things (tools, spare parts, etc.). I will try to come the original as near as possible, but that is a long procedure. Not only the dirty, oily appearance is a task, new for me is the approach to portray a wet vehicle after some rain shower. I don't even know how I will archieve that...
Zusammenbau_18.jpg
Quote from: finescalerr on May 29, 2024, 12:10:04 AMWhoops! I forgot the "t". Nick, go stand in the corner! -- Russ
I'm not going to go stand in the corner for your failings , this time it is you who should go there . And you can't take any bikini clad beauties for company .
Oh, very well, Nick. I'll stand in the corner. And while I'm there I'll think about Peter's excellent model. -- Russ
Quote from: Peter_T1958 on May 29, 2024, 02:00:11 AMIt must have been quite oily but also wet and dirty, and I am working on that. The original was photographed by an American soldier on a rainy day in February 1919 at Oberkail (Germany). It stood there diabeled and looted of all useful things (tools, spare parts, etc.). I will try to come the original as near as possible, but that is a long procedure. Not only the dirty, oily appearance is a task, new for me is the approach to portray a wet vehicle after some rain shower. I don't even know how I will archieve that...
I've been watching Nightshift on YouTube and looking at VMS products. I'm not saying it would be easy, but the materials and techniques are out there.
I know the work of Martin Kovac, and of course, as a professional modeller, he can handle all the different techniques with ease and quick too. I also have a lot of Ammo and MIG stuff on my desk, but you all know, it depends not only on good products.
So I had to recognise all over the years that all those tutorials may give you a basic idea how to approach a desired effec, but you (or at least me) I got NEVER the same results. :(
An example: Ammo and other brands offer some good stuff called «WET EFFECTS». They do give the impression of wet, and therefore slightly glossy surfaces. What it doesn't take into account is, that the wet surfaces are always in some degree darker then the dry ones.
So, again I rely mostly on an old-fashioned technique to do the weathering: oil colours (of course in combination with up-to-date products).
Cheers, Peter
Quote from: Peter_T1958 on May 30, 2024, 12:16:35 AMI know the work of Martin Kovac, and of course, as a professional modeller, he can handle all the different techniques with ease and quick too. I also have a lot of Ammo and MIG stuff on my desk, but you all know, it depends not only on good products.
So I had to recognise all over the years that all those tutorials may give you a basic idea how to approach a desired effec, but you (or at least me) I got NEVER the same results. :(
An example: Ammo and other brands offer some good stuff called «WET EFFECTS». They do give the impression of wet, and therefore slightly glossy surfaces. What it doesn't take into account is, that the wet surfaces are always in some degree darker then the dry ones.
I know what you mean. Personally, I've found that I can generally replicate the individual demonstrated effects pretty well. I'm not doing military vehicles so the overall effects are not usually what I'm after (and I'm not Martin Kovacs). What I have found is that the EXACT product can be important with layered techniques. Some enamel thinners are more aggressive than others and some acrylics more resistant. Likewise some clearcoats protect well and others not so much (or maybe I'm using them incorrectly). Nothing worse than some weathering technique that removes earlier work!!
I haven't used them myself yet, but the VMS pigments and binders looked interesting for mud, both dry and wet. Certainly the images on their website are convincing.
Modelling in excellence
Barney
Thank you Barney (the king of scratch building!). And here another work in progress photo. The pigments are on - I love this kind of weathering work, although, the rear wheel solely took me half a day and a lot of neck pain. ::)
Zusammenbau_22klein.jpg
BTW. the toolbox isn't weathered yet, because I have to place there a decal. I decided to redraw all decals, IMHO the kit ones had not the right font - and it is an old-style German script... :o
Ersatzteile.jpg
So far the model looks outstanding. I'm glad to learn it took so many hours to weather. I once spent two days weathering a locomotive and began to doubt my sanity. -- Russ
Again another update. And I have some serious doubts now about my sanity too - I have worked the whole day on those b***y rain marks and now the whole work space is filled up with damps of turpentine.
Here a comparison picture...
Zusammenbau_38.jpg
Peter, it looks like you've figured out how to do rain marks. Excellent results.
Interesting to compare the look of your field battered vehicle with the pristine wagon that greenie posted on his old wagons thread.
Might be a coincidence or not, but I had exactly the same thought when I saw Greenies newest cration (and his wagons are really work of art).
To be honest, I had become a litte bit weary of all that weathering – would be fine to do something that looks bright and clean, I thought for a moment. :-\
It looks quite good but if you have any doubts, remember this: A model rarely seems good enough while we work on it but may look terrific when we see it a year later. -- Russ
Certainly looks convincing to me.
Stuart
Thanks gents for your words! The project is nearing completion - some paint here and there and some details are still missing (lamps, ladder, etc.). And that's why isn't glued together yet, just assembled for the photo - to be seen at the knock-kneed rear wheels :-\
Zusammenbau_47.jpg
As I wrote before: actually motivation is within limits, but maybe I can bring myself to create a small base of a wet road to underline the wintery conditions...
It certainly looks satisfactory, with or without a scenic base. A truly excellent model of an interesting vehicle. -- Russ
What Russ said!
The joy of the modeller:
You'll be in that state where you've created something very few others know or care anything about, to a standard few could aspire to. You know more about that thing than anyone else in the world.
It's OK. We understand :)
This is a truly unique and fascinating model with an excellent finish.
Bernhard