Hi gents
Barneys Büssing conversation led me to the idea to present here, why you hear very little about me in this forum.
Some interesting documents I discovered recently focused my attention on another demanding project. What I would like to try is designing an entire vehicle in 1/25 scale with my CAD program. In the meantime construction is already at an advanced stage. What is all about?
The Büssing MTW 55 is a German heavy prime mover from 1917. There have been few documents and pictures until I discovered a spare parts list full of drawings.
(https://images49.fotki.com/v1680/photos/4/3824994/16426959/Oberkail_1918-vi.jpg)
And here the same vehicle in CAD:
(https://images12.fotki.com/v1677/photos/4/3824994/16426959/Fahrzeug-vi.jpg) (https://images14.fotki.com/v1676/photos/4/3824994/16426959/Motorklein-vi.png) (https://images20.fotki.com/v1678/photos/4/3824994/16426959/2319_59_27Seilwinde_135Print3D-vi.png)
Now most CAD work has been done but problems have only just started with the printing of the files. It is frustrating to see what I get different from print services all around the world! Here an example:
(https://images20.fotki.com/v1678/photos/4/3824994/16426959/Rahmen-vi.jpg)
So the actual start in the analog modelling adventure is at the moment rather sluggish.
But as soon as I have some results on my work bench I will post an update here. ;)
Hello Peter, thanks for showing, I didn't know the Büssing either. I'm curious how it goes on.
Maybe you already spoke to the person who did some 3-D printing for Volker. He is in Germany and apparently very good. -- Russ
Very Unusual - just What I like - please keep us posted with your updates
Barney
Thanks for your thoughts!
When I posted this project in another forum, some members there showed some interest to puchase the 3d parts. So I hoped to find a way to print the parts in a good quality in SLA but still attractively-priced. The well known market leader offers very good quality but at a high price – no one would buy it ! Neither I wanted to share my files, this due to bad experience in the past.
So I tried various suppliers all over the world with the results shown above. It seems, that an own resin printer would be the key to success, the more I could place the supports on appropriate places. Alas this is not an option for me !
Let's see what the future might bring!
Cheers, Peter
Hello Peter, in 1:22,5 I would certainly be interested in such a kit, only 1:25 deviates too far.
Hi Helmuth
The files could easily be scaled to 1/22,5. But I don't know whether printing would be possible in such big dimensions... and imagine the costs ::)
Indeed, that would become a huge model, about 10' (25,5 cm) long ! Mine in 1/25 scale is already big :D
(https://images14.fotki.com/v1676/photos/4/3824994/16426959/IMG_20220622_155952-vi.jpg)
Hi Peter
As someone with two 3D printers, who prints daily, my comment would be that the files shown are not set up for easy quality printing (on a resin machine at least). That may impact quotes offered.
If the plan is to print then the parts should be prepared with that in mind and consolidated/broken down to suit. You don't want to sprue them as this generally has no useful function in the print process and limits orientation and support options. But it's digital so a minor rearrangement is easy to do.
Large scale is also an issue as print time and resin cost will be far greater in 1/25 than they would be in 1/35 or 1/48. It's doable, but development costs are higher. I've had quite a lot of experience rescaling models and generally speaking upscaling works pretty seamlessly (albeit with higher possible detail). So it should be feasible to develop the model in a smaller scale to save cost and then upscale when the major issues are all sorted.
Quote from: Lawrence@NZFinescale on October 24, 2022, 05:26:24 PMAs someone with two 3D printers, who prints daily, my comment would be that the files shown are not set up for easy quality printing. The parts should be prepared with that in mind and consolidated/broken down to suit.
Thanks Lawrence!
That's exactly what I did originally. The model is constructed in 1/35 scale to check printability. Rescaling is easy to do afterwards. The engine for in instance is devided in several parts (engine block, carburettor, exhaust, cooling circuit). Each part leads to several files, as I want to save all important steps in case of a computer crash or annother mishap. In this way I don't have to go back to square one.
Now I discovered, that printing those parts at Shapeways (Fine Detail Plastic) costs much more this way than when I sprued them. I tryed different arrangements until I achieved the best price.
Some other parts were printed in SLA, each in a seperate files. But as I can't control the position of the supports, they are often at the wrong place or (in this example) parts are broken !
(https://images34.fotki.com/v1681/photos/4/3824994/16426959/IMG_20221016_114507-vi.jpg)
And this learning by trial and error is what makes the whole thing so expensive.
Now I am in contact with a manufacturer who showed interest in producing a small batch of my Büssing in SLA technique. If this WOULD be case, I would have to redesign some parts, as he could print much smaller details (which I had to simplify yust to make them printable).
As you have seen, there are a lot of « would » and «could» in the whole thing...
Well, it still looks impressive to me.
Stuart
Well I meant to say Peter, it's looking very nice.
Welcome to the world of 3D prints by the way - your experience here is typical. There is CAD, there is printing and then there is model production - The latter being the optimal fusion of the two. 'Optimal' being somewhat subjective and machine/resin dependent.
Shapeways FD is a different technology to the common LCD resin printer, and different constraints apply. These days I would rate the print quality as poor for our needs compared to a decent resin printer, but it does have some advantages.
Using the resin printer for producing models is generally quite cost-effective. The cost for one offs being in the work up rather than production per se. My two images attached sum this up!!
In terms of support placement, you should be able to discuss this with your printer. However you do need supports, so it's often a balance between print quality and part clean up. Understanding the printer constraints helps in part design as the worst issues can often be avoided. Bear in mind that any technology has its limitations and it may be easier to spend 5 minutes filling and sanding rather than chasing absolutely perfect prints.
Hi Lawrence
I noticed the quality differences too. Although I was very pleased when I received my first SLA printed wheel, while sanding and filling the few imperfections parts broke apart. When I realised at the end that there was more a pile of rubble then clean work I threw the whole thing frustrated into the bucket.
(https://images49.fotki.com/v1679/photos/4/3824994/16426959/IMG_20221020_1146022-vi.jpg)
So I went back to Shapeways and their Fine Detail Plastic which is not the leading edge of technology but a solid basis. Of course you have to clean it up and to sand it.
(https://images46.fotki.com/v1682/photos/4/3824994/16426959/IMG_20221010_122233-vi.jpg)
But you are right : With a resin printer, much more would be possible... I just have to find THE right provider ! :-\
I'm a fan of your stuff.
Resins vary a lot in their strength, impact resistance, detail, hardness etc, etc. I use two for the most part. The first has good performance properties but is a bit translucent so does not look great unpainted (fine with a coat of primer though). The second is somewhat softer and has great detail, ideal for figures and things without large thin sections. There is also the possibility of a castable resin with transfer through to bronze. The latter is a good option for small fragile parts.
I do offer 3D printing to modellers on a commercial basis. Being a modeller myself I'm generally able to determine what's going to make the customer happy in regard to support placement and so on. I'm in New Zealand, so not really optimal for helping you, but I'm happy to chat about approaches if you wish.
Thanks for the very kind offer! In the meantime I played around with Chitubox which seems rather quick to learn and I am looking forward to have first results from a regional provider soon.
What made me unsettled is that I don't know what approach promises the greatest success. I took a quick look on your homepage and discovered this breathtaking item :
(https://images15.fotki.com/v1674/photos/4/3824994/14463210/NZfinelines-vi.jpg)
Caption : A finely detailed one piece resin print representing the firebox and cab fittings of the NZR K class 4-8-4, in 1:64.
Obviously You are able to print such complicated items in one go; all parts as one file ! So this should be able with my parts too and I do not have to dissect everything just to arrange it in Chitubox (or similar programs) or do I understand that incorrectly?
Thanks Peter
Understanding print setup will really help you get the best results. It's probably best to let your supplier do the actual set up though as resins and machines vary in their performance.
With resin printers it comes down to the arrangement of parts. Something like a tree with upwardly angled branches needs no support at all. A tree with a weeping habit is almost impossible to print as every branch needs support - at the thin tip. So with the boiler backhead, many of the elements can be unsupported if printed in the correct orientation and so it is not quite so difficult as it might seem. In Chitu (which I do not use) you'll be able to search for 'islands' (=unsupported regions). In simple terms, any arrangement of parts that eliminates or minimises islands in need of support is likely to produce a better print.
Spoked wheels can be quite problematic. If printed vertically most spokes can be unsupported but any close to horizontal will need support and almost inevitably look slightly different to the rest in the print. Printed flat the front of the wheel comes out really well, but the rear face does not. For cast loco drivers this is fine as the rear face will be turned up anyway.
So for your wheels I would look at dividing them into the tread + outside spokes + 'hubcap' and separately inside spokes + rim + hub, or something along those lines.
In terms of drawing practicality, leave all of your parts separate. Only combine them when producing the print file, leaving the source as separate parts. It will just make your life far easier.
Lawrence's little tutorial is worth its weight in gold. -- Russ
I take it the check (cheque) is in the mail?
Sorry, Lawrence. Only an invitation to go stand in the corner is in the mail. -- Russ
I love that prototype vehicle! It's so funky looking! Sort of looks like a truck body mounted on a tractor.
Thanks all for your contributions!
Quote from: finescalerr on October 26, 2022, 07:30:35 PMLawrence's little tutorial is worth its weight in gold. -- Russ
@Lawrence
Indeed, you are a huge help! I hope I understood all right and I will separate all complex parts into own files.
In the meantime I tried to arrange the supports with reference to your suggestions in Chitubox. Already turning the wheel and omitting the wheel spruds reduces the number of the supports quite a bit (It has still enough of them). Now I can modify some and fix them into the right place. And I will divide the wheel in some smaller parts too!
With spruds...
(https://images15.fotki.com/v1673/photos/4/3824994/16426959/Screenshot2-vi.jpg)
Without spruds ...
(https://images46.fotki.com/v1682/photos/4/3824994/16426959/Screenshot1-vi.jpg)
Now I have to go back to my workbench – there is much to do!!
Peter
Hi Peter
Hopefully Russ forgives this esoteric digression (or provides actual gold for it :-))
Yep, what you have here looks about typical for the conventional wisdom and should work. There is a calculation to get the angle optimal for surface quality but provided the layer height equals the pixel dimension the answer is 45 degrees.
Note however that the purpose of support is not only to eliminate islands, but also to provide sufficient mechanical stability to resist peeling forces and prevent distortions of the part. This is rather hard to predict with any precision and is generally resolved by trial and error. If the part does move you'll end up with prominent layer lines at points where forces changed significantly. These are particularly annoying when printing at an angle as they are more obvious than they would be if horizontal to the model.
The conventional wisdom, as far as I can see, is predicated on 'I have a model I need to print', rather than 'I want to create a model from print optimised parts'.
The attached water vat could have been done in 1 piece more or less as you have done the wheel. However I separated out the base and printed it upside down (the detailed face here is the bottom of the vat) ie NO support. Note that it has a chamfered base to counteract the widened 'foot' that occurs with layers attached to the build plate. This is hidden in the assembled model. The vat was printed flat as shown with what I call knife edge support (shown here in green). The contact area with the part is continuous, but optimised to be as thin as possible. Note however that it is vented to avoid hydraulic issues. After printing it is easily removed and the edge trued on a sanding board (the only clean up needed). The steel hoops are added from monofilament later and sit in the printed location grooves.
This is my preferred approach to 'engineering' subjects. Advantages are:
* print time is minimised
* resin volume is minimised
* clean up time is minimised
* print quality is typically optimised.
* quality on similarly angled faces is uniform (not always the case with a tilted build)
* mechanical stability is generally good and easier to predict.
It doesn't always present the best solution, but generally does.
I would look to do your wheel in 3 parts if I were doing it.
1. The tire - done as the vat above
2. The hub, rim and spokes divided into 2 or 3 parts - inner and outer -done as per the tank base.
For the hub parts you would need supports, but the attachment of these would be inside the wheel so less visible. As the wheel is in multiple parts clean up would be very much easier.
In short, I would be designing part breakdown to minimise supports and optimise printing right from the outset. You can print more or less anything. The quality of the result, cost to get there and effort for clean up can vary a LOT depending on the efficiency of part design.
I hope this helps. Optimising supports and orientation is another skill set to learn. Hopefully your print supplier will advise or do it for you.
Now it isn't just a little tutorial; I am currently studying my first semester of 3d engineering ::)
Lawrence, thank you very much in advance for your support! I don't know if I can put all this into practise, but it will help me a lot on my way to better results. And, may be, my future provider of the heart will learn something new too ;)
Kind regards
Peter (From the opposite side of the globe...)
My pleasure.
In your case, where you want to scale up later, minimising supports will save you a lot of trouble as supports do not scale well.
Last year I mentioned that a French producer showed interest in printing a small batch of my Büssing in SLA technique. In the meantime the cooperation has grown steadily. This also means that I had to redesign the major parts, as he can print much smaller details and designig a kit demands much more then doing that for my own.
(https://images34.fotki.com/v1681/photos/4/3824994/16426959/Screenshot124-vi.png)
I tried to transfer Lawrences suggestions and I will save all parts in seperate files. The producer will recommend what can and cannot be put together
(https://images15.fotki.com/v1685/photos/4/3824994/16426959/Hinterrad_getrennt-vi.jpg)
The rear wheel in 3 parts: tire, rim and spokes and hub.
The only negative aspect will be the usual scale 1/35. Initially I had planned to print the vehicle in 1/25 scale ...
Cheers, Peter
That's cool. Couldn't you still print some in 1/25th for yourself?
Quote from: Ray Dunakin on January 13, 2023, 10:10:57 PMCouldn't you still print some in 1/25th for yourself?
Ray, of course I would still like to do so and I did a lot of attempts in the past month. However I have already invested a lot of money with very sobering results. So first I will look forward tot he results of my 1/35 scale model!
(https://images12.fotki.com/v1686/photos/4/3824994/16426959/Sammlung-vi.jpg)
Here the same wheel experimentally arranged in Chitubox. From my point of view, that's a real improvement; there are much less supports and they are all on the back side oft he wheel.
(https://images20.fotki.com/v1638/photos/4/3824994/16426959/Chitubox-vi.jpg)
Cheers, Peter
P.S. Coincidentally, today a new parcel arrived with some simple sencils to paint the wheels of my other (limping) project. Absolutely unusable – it is almost cheek !!!
(https://images15.fotki.com/v1673/photos/4/3824994/16308211/IMG_20230114_132943-vi.jpg)
Quote from: Peter_T1958 on January 14, 2023, 06:55:52 AMRay, of course I would still like to do so and I did a lot of attempts in the past month. However I have already invested a lot of money with very sobering results. So first I will look forward to the results of my 1/35 scale model!
Well done Peter.
Welcome to the world of finescale 3D printing. There is always one more tweak or improvement one can make and most finished models pose on a mountain of test pieces, failures and early versions. Experience tells you what should work, but even so there are surprises (good and bad) and resins, settings and hardware can have a large effect.
Quote from: Lawrence@NZFinescale on January 14, 2023, 09:34:50 AMWelcome to the world of finescale 3D printing.
Oh dear, things get serious! But I have to get through this stage now and that's why I am working restlessly on my first commercial project – huh!
But now that I have researched more then thirty years on subjects like that, I thought it's time now to share the collected knowledge in any form. I was therefore very pleased about the offer from this French producer:
(https://images12.fotki.com/v1686/photos/4/3824994/16426959/StGeorgemodel-vi.jpg)
@ Lawrence
Thanks a lot for your hint! I did some trials in « Blender» to realize this curtain:
(https://images46.fotki.com/v1682/photos/4/3824994/16426959/Curtain_Orig-vi.jpg)
(https://images49.fotki.com/v1679/photos/4/3824994/16426959/curtainleftsmall-vi.jpg)
Nice job on the curtain.
I'm not sure I understand the first part of the post - Is that the advance notice for your kit or somebody else's?
Hopefully yours - and, if so, well done!
You are right, this was not clearly formulated. To be more precise: That is my kit which is produced by that company - I couldn't lift that by myself ...
OK, it's (still) not in my prefered 1/25 scale, but at least the project is moving forward. :-\
First fitting of the parts without glue as to be seen on the St. George Model's facebook page.
(https://media.fotki.com/2v2ecDPiqxAGC7F.jpg)
(https://media.fotki.com/2v2ecDPPGxAGC7F.jpg)
This is really an impressive model, Peter. But there seems to be a lot of rework and detail work waiting.
Bernhard
You are right. It's just the first test run. There is still a lot of work to be done! And it's a real challenge for me, as we conduct all correspondence in French :-X
Impressive in spite of its imperfection. -- Russ
Always exciting when projects move forward.
Very Nice - a very interesting model
Barney
I do especially admire the steep cad learning curve you've passed within some rather short time. And the parts look really promising! Congrats so far!
(I)t's a real challenge for me, as we conduct all correspondence in French :-X Peter
Peter, You seem to be handling that challenge very well. I'd be swamped even if all the correspondence were in Emglish.
Quote from: Hydrostat on April 18, 2023, 10:31:02 AMI do especially admire the steep cad learning curve you've passed within some rather short time. And the parts look really promising!
Thanks guys for your feedback. Concerning the «learning curve» I am a little proud too, but I am also in a real fix now. My computer has reached its limits in such a way that I can take a walk to the bakery while saving a larger file (e.g. the assembled frame) ... >:(
Time to evict the bats and spiders from your wallet and upgrade. Maybe Russ will open a category to discuss electronic projects. ;D
You may think you're kidding, Lawton, but I'm very interested in computers, built my own from 1992 until 2012 when I moved from desktops to laptops, and would not object to adding such a category to our forum if it were relevant to enough of us. -- Russ
Quote from: Peter_T1958 on April 19, 2023, 10:58:15 AMConcerning the «learning curve» I am a little proud too, but I am also in a real fix now. My computer has reached its limits in such a way that I can take a walk to the bakery while saving a larger file (e.g. the assembled frame) ... >:(
While it may be time for an upgrade, your workflow can influence performance a lot. Obviously I do not know what you are doing or if improvement is possible but as an example from AutoCAD: If you select objects and then the operation things are very slow (if there are many and/or complex objects). If you select the operation first and then the objects it is MUCH faster (can be sec v minutes). Either route works and the difference is imperceptible until the project gets very large but can become significant. There are other examples where similar and equally acceptable results can be achieved much quicker by changing the method slightly.
It is also worth looking at detailed performance when things get slow. If the choke point is read/write then installing an SSD may be a quick fix (and you can move it to a new build later)
Impressive work Peter.
I have just recently purchased a 3D resin printer but have yet to produce a finished product with it. I suppose there will be a significant learning curve ahead of me but I am looking forward to the challenge. Looks like you have done a masterful job of working out some of the kinks with your project.
Stuart
Hmmm, a new computer isn't within my budget at the moment, but one indicator that an upgrade is inevitable might be the fact that whether I select objects and then the operation neither the other way: the process it is not noticeable faster :-\
Thanks anyway for your help!
Quote from: Peter_T1958 on April 21, 2023, 06:52:20 AMHmmm, a new computer isn't within my budget at the moment, but one indicator that an upgrade is inevitable might be the fact that whether I select objects and then the operation neither the other way: the process it is not noticeable faster :-\
Thanks anyway for your help!
It's a problem I suspect most digital modellers suffer. I certainly have, and a computer upgrade will more than likely help a lot. However, my machine is not especially high powered. It is typically possible to keep files within practical operating limits - leaving resource hungry steps until the final output stage. Anything that contains many data points will need to be loaded in one go and will typically slow things down far more than a number of smaller objects with the same number of points in total. After all this problem is not unique to model makers and the software will generally have means to work with limited resources.
I don't think the truck should require outrageous resources. But if you've modelled the radiator core (for example) in high resolution then you may have made life difficult for yourself. You probably don't need to compromise the model quality to deal with such things, but may need to alter how you manage them.
Need to fix the spelling in your Da Vinci quote too, unless he wrote with a lisp :-)
Where in hell does he know that I am lisping ::)
Ok,ok, thanks for the hint! ;D
Finally we got there and so this is my last post on this subject. The edition was sold out within few days (Huh!!!), although I was a quite a bit worried about the high price (164 €)!
The promotional model wasn't built by myself. That would be useless, as I have usually ten or more years to finish a project ::)
(https://images20.fotki.com/v1684/photos/4/3824994/16426959/MTW-vi.jpg)
Congrats, Peter! Hope you'll get some refund for the work involved!
Good work, Peter. It must be a good feeling when all that work meets with interest from others.
Bernhard
Nice!
Most satisfactory. -- Russ
Awesome! Congrats!
Congratulations, Peter!
Great work and congratulations.
Thanks a lot!
BTW... It seems that I have found my new vocation. A new project is already on its way ;)
(https://images14.fotki.com/v1683/photos/4/3824994/16573324/Seite_klein-vi.jpg)
(https://images20.fotki.com/v1684/photos/4/3824994/16573324/Entwurf_7BstlKlein-vi.jpg)
Wow, that is so funky! What is the cylindrical object under the frame?
Thanks, Ray!
The cylindrical object is a rope winch. To me this is a highly interesting vehicle, all the more since there you can/could almost nothing find about it in the archives. But... I was able to get my hands on the sole and original user manual with some pictures and sectional drawings. ::)
BTW "Dürkopp" was a pre- and post-war manufacturer of sewing machines. May be of coincidence or not, the transmission housing looks a lot like a sewing machine...
(https://images20.fotki.com/v1684/photos/4/3824994/16573324/Getriebe_5klein-vi.jpg)
Cheers, Peter
Awesome!
Peter, Congratulations again, on your new vocation. Looks like another excellent project!