OK, so I have read and looked and read and looked at a lot of 3D printing stuff.
I have in mind to do some small(N scale) stuff that I have had percolating in my head for about 2 decades.
There has been a lot of work shown here that is very nice, but wont cut it for what I have in mind. The Fineline .008" is just too course. Their Microfine Green looks interesting though, has anyone actually used that?
And maybe what I have in mind just is not possible(yet)?
Who knows what is the best available?
In my travels I found this useful chart comparing a lot of printers:
http://www.additive3d.com/3dpr_cht.htm
From that chart I found this new interesting low cost printer with high resolution:
https://www.asiga.com/
Thanks,
Paul
Paul,
Is your plan to buy your own printer?
I used Shapeways FUD material to get these printed.
The photo doesn't show it well, but the detail was very good. 2nd photo is the SketchUp drawing.
Gee, I thought you guys would be all over this...
I am not sure but I think the Shapeways FUD is not going to cut it for the quality I am looking for.
I am going to look into some of the jewelry forums and see what I find there
Paul
The Microfine green is the best I have seen so far, but it is very expensive and limited in size. Several of the Finelines materials are offered in .002 or .004 resolution. Paul Rayner may be able to add more informed info.
Quote from: SandiaPaul on July 23, 2012, 12:37:30 PM
Gee, I thought you guys would be all over this...
I am not sure but I think the Shapeways FUD is not going to cut it for the quality I am looking for.
I am going to look into some of the jewelry forums and see what I find there
Paul
The solidscape wax printers will give you a very good resolution with a minimum layer thickness of 0,0127 mm. But you have to make a metal master from the wax part, or use the metal part as a one-off part. Quite expensive if you only need one part. Jewellers use these machines quite a lot.
Regards,
Hauk
Paul and I have discussed this via. PM but thought I'd weigh in on it publicly with my thoughts. 3D printing resolution is getting better and better. As Hauk mentions, there are Solidscape precision printers capable of printing layer thickness of .0127mm, Objet and 3D Systems have printers that can print layers at .016mm. Currently the finest resolutions are available for wax prints which obviously can't be used as final parts, but as patterns for investment casting. Finish quality is dependent upon the geometry of the piece being printed, alignment of the part on the print platform and the print material used. At current technology levels, these machines are capable of producing very fine masters for jewelers, product designers and modelers in larger scales. Even though print layers are decreasing, minimum wall thickness (for consistent reliable results) still hovers around .007", minimum detail rendition is around .004". At the present time, I don't believe it would be possible to achieve smooth finish, high quality, accurately detailed parts in N Scale at least at anything approaching an affordable price. The good news though, is 3D printing is ranked as one of today's fastest growing technologies. New materials and printing capabilities are announced on an almost daily basis. So, six months or a year from now, who knows what prototyping opportunities will be available to us.
Paul
Thanks for the replies gents...
I am almost feeling like I need to experiment with 3 or 4 different methods. And maybe wait till the resolution gets better!
I think I could maybe even get what I want with laser cutting, right now photo etch is looking like the best way.
Thanks,
Paul
Thought I would stick my nose into the thread. There's a lot of (good) discussion on layers, resolution and so on. Here's a .. I think .. a pretty good idea of the highest resolution available from Shapeways. These two 'bearing blocks' (?) .. were printed by Shapeways in their FUD (Frosted Ultra Detail). The red arrows are pointing to blobs that are bolt-heads. The minimal detail thickness for FUD is 0.1mm/0.0039"
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages57.fotki.com%2Fv647%2Fphotos%2F2%2F1709102%2F10374449%2FBearingCluster-vi.jpg&hash=cec6f1e0c5ec67c3fa7010586eded59d1dd1b89a)
take a look at this:
https://www.asiga.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=91
I have ordered a sample part, not my file, one they choose and send out.
Looks pretty good...
Paul
Quote from: SandiaPaul on July 26, 2012, 02:19:08 PM
take a look at this:
https://www.asiga.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=91
I have ordered a sample part, not my file, one they choose and send out.
Looks pretty good...
Paul
Looks interesting. While we wait for the pictures of the samples, here are pictures of a Print-A-Part (RIP) and a FUD Shapeways part compared:
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.folk-rovere.org%2Fmj%2Fbilder%2Fkisvogn_PAP_w.jpg&hash=089d0e45c3734c57d0accd895157455c7bef6034)
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.folk-rovere.org%2Fmj%2Fbilder%2FKisvogn_Shapeways_w.jpg&hash=7c29c01af8c0e5c0c3d619946aaf03ddf792eb13)
Regards, Hauk
I read in the news today that an updated 3D printer is available for about $2,100. http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2416414,00.asp (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2416414,00.asp)
Its maker claims to have sufficient resolution that post production work is unnecessary. If any of you guys with knowledge of this stuff has a comment, please elucidate.
Russ
I also read that the MakerBot folks are working on a desktop 3D scanner that looks promising.
0.004" corresponds to:
At 1:87 scale, .35" steps
At 1:64 scale, .26" steps
At 1:48 scale, .19" steps
At 1:32 scale, .13" steps
At 1:16 scale, .06" steps
Even at 1:16 scale, that's a significant texture. Seems to me, we need some pretty fine resolution to achieve our goals...
Mark
I have also noted that some users are quite happy to leave layer lines showing on their parts. Even some mfgs. who use 3D printing for their patterns do not bother to clean up the lines, which is pure laziness (or poor eyesight?).
So what constitutes post production is a moving target just now, and I wouldn't trust the sales pitch of a printer company. Show me.
Quote from: marklayton on March 11, 2013, 06:14:42 PM
0.004" corresponds to...
The Vipers have a layer thickness of 0.002", If you can afford it...
At the moment I can't imagine why I would need a 3D printer even if costs only $2,100; it would take a lot of business with a service bureau to reach that figure. But if resolution goes higher as prices go lower, in a few years we might all own a 3D printer.
The more important question is resolution. Is 0.002" pretty much the finest available? Even that would seem slightly coarse for 1:32 scale and below. It reminds me of the early (top quality) 300 dpi laser printers. The text looked very good unless you used even a slight amount of magnification. 600 dpi was much better and 1200 dpi pretty much nailed it.
How many more generations until we have 3D resolution analogous to 1200 dpi?
Russ
In the pictures posted by Hauk, the lines left by the printer could be representative of wood grain on the bin sides, but would be out of place where a metal part is represented.
With machine costs coming down and resolution going up, its just a matter of time before many of us will be able to afford to make our own parts. When that happens how long will it be before there is a market for the programs for the parts are offered for sale?
Quote from: Lawton Maner on March 12, 2013, 06:27:30 PM
With machine costs coming down and resolution going up, its just a matter of time before many of us will be able to afford to make our own parts.
I am really looking forward to to the first customer reviews of the FormLabs 3D printer. FormLabs samples look very promesing. Their printer has a slightly better resolution than Shapeways FUD parts. With a price tag around $3500 it is within reach for small businesses and ambitious modellers.
The Form1 is expected to ship around May, and I guess the user reviews will start to flood the net right away!
I hope they will include macro photos. If a particularly useful review should appear in a language other than English, could you please offer a very brief report for the verbally impaired? -- Russ
When the CEO of my company saw what we spent last year on 3D printing, he okayed my department purchasing our own printer. The one we're looking at does 16 micron layers, but I'm guessing the boss will balk at he 120k price tag. Our proposal includes the option of defraying costs by renting out printer time- I'll keep you all posted on that, especially if we can make it affordable to non-production types, like us modelers.
We switched to a new printing company, and just got back our first pieces. I only wish I could post the images. Side by side with actual injection molded production samples, the only giveaway as to which are which is the color. Our minimum feature size for X-Wing ships is .2mm, and these prints are as crisp as the 3D models on my screen. (That minimum is NOT the minimum for the printer, it's the minimum size for production. I'm sure the printer could go much finer.) You can't even see the printing lines. With any luck, it'll be the machine we get to print in house. I don't recall the model number, other than it's an Invision printer tat runs around $120k.
[Edit: The printer resolution is 50 microns.]
Er, 15 microns. Derp.
The Details:
The company is Lightbeanm 3D (http://lightbeam3d.com/).
We had one set done on the Invisiontech Mini Multi Lens, using Nanocure RC 25 resin, at 50 microns. (Not 15.) The resin is sort of an orangey flesh color, and has a "feel" similar to styrene.
The second set was printed on an Aureus, using Photosilver resin, at 25 microns. (It is a grey resin similar to the grey a lot of model kits are made in, and also feels like it's styrene.)
We can only see the difference between the two resolutions by photographing them with a macro lens and blowing them up to about 50 times larger. The printing lines are mostly invisible to the naked eye. They show up a little on some of the flatter areas, but most of the aren't visible until blown up about 20 times.
Thank you for the input. Very interesting. -- Russ
Yes, thanks!
I third the thanks.
Hey guys if we all chip in it's only forty grand a piece!
Mj
Actually, the 60k did just as well, so it's only half the price! Blown up large enough, the 120k ones do show printing lines, but the 60k machine prints didn't, as we had those printed at a higher resolution. We wanted to see the difference between a higher quality machine with lower quality prints vs. a lower quality machine printing at a higher resolution. Based on these tests, we're no longer looking at the 120k machine, as we can get near-perfect prints on the 60k one.
Also, they have a deal for first time customers, 50% off your first print. Additionally, they have a more reasonable (but still a bit spendy) pricing for "Wait to Print"- essentially, you send them the files, and when they get enough Wait to Print submissions, they print them all at once. You might have to wait a few weeks, but the price is better. And they don't gang print like Shapeways, where they orient things all over the place. The system they use prints off of a moving plate, so all items must contact the plate at some point, which means all items will have the same orientation.
Fomlabs have now shipped the first batch of Form1 printers.
http://formlabs.com/pages/our-printer
While it wil be some time until they have shipped all preordered machines, this is great news.
As mentioned before, the Form1 has a minimum layer thickness of 0,001". This is comparable to the best prints from Shapeways and good old Print-A-Part.
I will post links as soon as I can find any first- hand reviews online.
An interesting article on 3d printing, pros, cons and people's perceptions.
http://gizmodo.com/why-3d-printing-is-overhyped-i-should-know-i-do-it-fo-508176750 (http://gizmodo.com/why-3d-printing-is-overhyped-i-should-know-i-do-it-fo-508176750)
I hope most of us are sophisticated enough to have anticipated the shortcomings and erroneous perceptions the author lists. 3-D printing is just another tool, like a table saw, plaster, or paper. All of us already know that, right? -- Russ
I see and use 3D printing to obtain detail parts for my models and structures. That special item that had to be built from tiny scraps can now be a one piece item. And if you need more than one, multiples are cheap enough from 3D printers.
I don't think these will turn into modeling complete structures or vehicles as a viable, cost effective alternative. Besides, I like scratch building, just not the tedious itsy bitsy detail making. I do know others enjoy that portion also and their modeling shown here is superb.
8)
One thing I don't see mentioned a lot id resin quality. I didn't realize how much it affects prints. In getting samples sent to us from different machines, you can see a wide range of quality/resolution from the same machine using different resins. We got some prints from a $10,000 machine that were as good as those from a $70,000 machine. It seems a lot of the machine manufacturers are developing their own proprietary resins, too, so over time, I think you'll see better and better detail being produced from the same equipment.
Also, my coworker bought a $2500 machine for himself, to play around with. We're going to see if we can get decent quality of it, before plunging in and dropping 70k on one for work. He seems to think that he can produce fine enough quality with it for our needs. I'm a little skeptical, but hopeful. If it works well enough, I know where next year's annual bonus is going...
That information about the resin is pretty interesting; it confirms something I had wondered about. Please keep us up to date on what you learn about the entire process, costs, and suitability for modeling. -- Russ