This is a technique used by armor modelers & Sci-fi (MaK/SF-3D) modelers, and I thought some here might find it interesting or useful for their work.
Cast steel surfaces and parts will often have cast on builders info, mfr., serial numbers etc.
This will describe an approach to making these on "rough-cast" and "sand-cast" metal surfaces.
There are several things that can be used to represent/make the numbers/letters:
Numbers from model/kit sprue tabs. The ones shown below are samples from varous kits and mfrs., note that they come in various sizes and mfrs.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rbadesign.net%2FTERRAPIN%2FReusser%2FCast_Numbers%2FSprue2.jpg&hash=69adb41f1d73a98487b14ebd9eac4141fe1a9622)
Plastruct makes plastic letter & number sets. Interestingly both sets shown below came in packages noting them as 1/16" tall (part# 96001, PABT-2)....yet the are evidently quite different in size ::) ;D.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rbadesign.net%2FTERRAPIN%2FReusser%2FCast_Numbers%2FPlastruct.jpg&hash=3067b1df583d26c4e3532526275e6c0df7021dfc)
LionRoar Models makes a PE set (#LAM042):
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rbadesign.net%2FTERRAPIN%2FReusser%2FCast_Numbers%2FLionroarLetters.jpg&hash=2c5f4bc7d6ddacc10ae3778c9155b6dab3de4560)
To use the sprue tab numbers, use a new sharp Xacto blade to carefully slice the number from the tab:
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rbadesign.net%2FTERRAPIN%2FReusser%2FCast_Numbers%2FCastNumbers2.jpg&hash=468f947e6c20ad13ba34f56297f4a8cc9ad10114)
These are then individually placed/adhered along a pencil line, using liquid adhesive:
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rbadesign.net%2FTERRAPIN%2FReusser%2FCast_Numbers%2FCastNumbers1.jpg&hash=1961ef710f30253e5b4e41e67f825c8dd35aba05)
When dry, and old brush and Mr. Surfacer 500 (Other products such as thinned putty, can also be used) is used to create the cast texture by stippling the putty filled brush onto the surface (texture can be controled by type of brush used, speed/motion of stippling, length of stippling time, dryness/viscosity of Mr. Surfacer, and repeat applications), note that I tended to fade/thin the texture a bit around the numbers so as to not obscure them with Mr. Surfacer.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rbadesign.net%2FTERRAPIN%2FReusser%2FCast_Numbers%2FCastNumbers5.jpg&hash=b732343198ae52799dae850489b2435132cb303d)
The end result with a sprayed on coat of MR. Surfacer 1200 primer. In this case the surface of the numbers has been slightly sanded flat (this is not necessary....it was just an experiment).
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rbadesign.net%2FTERRAPIN%2FReusser%2FCast_Numbers%2FCastNumbers3.jpg&hash=0e800a9eeac6ee40a224ac8078058e00f6d5a34b)
This image shows the application on a model. Here however, the Plastruct numbers/letters were used. Note that they tend to be a bit heavier than the sprue tab numbers. The Plastruct numers/letters are also "thicker" than the shaved sprue ot PE ones, and these were sanded to about half their thickness/depth after application. Cast texture was then added as described above.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rbadesign.net%2FTERRAPIN%2FReusser%2FCast_Numbers%2FCastNumbers4.jpg&hash=bcd85d636c03be56874af5a6ff9886325290e965)
Cheers,
Marc
Marc, nice lettering, but I think that putty texture looks a bit various and overscale. Would not a stippling with a stiff brush and solvent give a more even and finer surface texture?
Hector
Hector,
You are correct about the texture. Most casting textures that we see are much smoother/finer and pretty consistant....these would be best simulated with "dry spraying" paint with an airbrush, or stippling as you mentioned.
I am using a much coarser/random technique/pattern...to simulate the cast steel such as that found on WW2 era armor like the Russuan IS2's & T-34 turrets...which was really heavy and random.
I was also just informed on the MIg Forum, that Archer Dry Transfers, Now makes raised resin decals for this sort of thing, as well as rivets and other such details.
Link to archers main page with the release note:
http://www.archertransfers.com/ (http://www.archertransfers.com/)
Here is the link to the actual product listing page for these items:
http://www.archertransfers.com/catSurfaceDetails.html (http://www.archertransfers.com/catSurfaceDetails.html)
Marc
Thanks for the link Marc - going to have to check out those Archer Dry Transfers. I've used the Slater's letters/numbers in the past with some success, typically on masters destined for molds. The real trick is to get the letter spacing correct and the character baseline straight. Nothing worse then looking at lettering where the individual characters are all over the place, this way and that, more crooked than a politician ;)
When using the Slater's product, I generally lay out the lettering on the computer first to get the spacing and alignment right, then print out a to-scale guide. This I glue to a thin flat brass strip, ca. .010" thick (thick enough to give a reference edge, but thin enough to curve round a surface if needed) a little wider than the height of the letters and long enough to contain all the characters but not so long as to get in the way or interfere. The top edge of the brass strip becomes the reference base line for the lettering. With that temporarily fixed in position onto the surface to be lettered, I use the printed guide to get the letter spacing correct and the top edge of the brass strip as an alignment edge for each individual letter, the base of which is set against this edge before being glued into place. The only time you run into a problem with this is if you have to use a character with a descender, such as lower-case y, j, g or q or 0, O, C, G, Q which (in most fonts) actually sit slightly below the base line when set correctly. In these instances, I set the rest of the characters in place, remove the brass guide and set the remaining characters individually, using the already set lettering as a guide. It's damn fiddly work, but it's always give me good results.
Bill
Those Lionroar letters, are they actually metal as the package seems to imply?
John
They're Chinese!! Leave well alone :( Use Slaters.
Hector
Trouble is, Slaters appears to be plastic and I want metal. Actually I'm looking for a way for a non-engraver to do some lettering on some patterns. Any ideas?
John
John,....yes, the LionRoar ones are brass.
Slaters???.......what are they and where can one find these? What sizes do they come in?
Marc
Marc, does this help? http://www.slatersplastikard.com//7mm%20Products/slaters%20alphabets.htm
Somebody in the U.S. carries or used to carry the line. I saw it at the Denver Narrow Gauge Convention a few years ago.
Russ
John, is there no-one over there does etching to your designs? Please don't use Chinese.
Cut 'em out of wire and bang 'em with a hammer, but not Chink sh**.
Hector
As I mentioned previously, I worked for 12 years for the #1 EDM dealer in the USA. The company tried to distribute a Chinese sinker machine. The manufacture literally could not understand that we wanted a reliable machine that seldom broke. When it did break, which was quite often, we wanted spare parts that actually fit and worked. I kid you not that they told us "You have a machine, so why are you complaining that things don't fit and work"? Since I was doing the graphics and trying to find some way of promoting this 'fecal matter', I was so glad to see it gone. This is first hand and no exaggeration.
I know that the real way to do this is with a 3D pantograph. Ozark has in fact offered to give me one. Unfortunately like Hector and his boat, there just isn't enough room in my little garage to put one. Maybe Dave knew that when he made the offer. I would like to learn to engrave, but know zero about it. Never seen it done and have no clue what tools to start with. The letters I'd like to make would generally be in the .060" range.
John
Damn John... if they want to give away a Pantograph machine, I'll find room for it... ;D ;D
Bill
I don't want to be a party pooper and I have resisted comment until now but, guys, can we please limit our modeling discussions to models and techniques? Even the comments about Chinese products are somewhat off topic because many good products also come from China. Chinese factories generally build to an importer's specifications; they have to or they'll lose the business. Blame importers for sub-standard products.
When I started this forum, I was hoping to attract the cream of the modeling community and, through their participation, create a place where we could learn from the best. Well, some of you are here but, instead of continuing to share modeling ideas, discussions wander off topic. That tends to discourage some potential contributors. A few privately have commented that, when the discussions wander, they feel funny about bringing them back so they just keep silent.
Let's keep our off-topic comments in the "Blue Room" and use the modeling forum areas for posting photos and contributing way cool techniques. Would that be okay?
Russ
QuoteTrouble is, Slaters appears to be plastic and I want metal. Actually I'm looking for a way for a non-engraver to do some lettering on some patterns. Any ideas?
Accurate Armour and Scale Link in the UK both produce sheets of photoengraved letters/numbers similar to the Lion Roar ones. Scale Link's web sales use an oddball security system, but Accurate Armour are very good to deal with.
Kevin,
Thanks for the added info.
Accurate armor makes great stuff and is easy to purchase from/deal with.
Marc
Fair dos, Russ.
Scale Link will be very good, all their stuff is. I don't know about Accurate Armour, but I've heard they make good gear.
A pantograph engraver is a good thing to have IF you have a cutter grinder and the jigs to hold them, otherwise you'd need to be a robot to grind the rather odd little cutters correctly. They need a slight angle at the end and a little "back off" so they don't rub, rather than cut. Once they cut well it's a remarkable machine that can turn out lovely work. You can make patterns from styrene sheet, wood, chewing gum and string, it doesn't matter as long as you have something to follow, or you can use it as a VERY light mill. I did all the detail work in the sides of a bulk road carrier in 1/48th scale in on mine.
And the inners of the commander's hatches on an Alvis light tank master for Barton Miniatures. It's just a lovely piece of kit to have around.
Hector
Kindt-Collins of Cleveland, OH sells pattern letters in aluminum, brass, and white metal. Sizes are down to 3/32" in Hair-Line Gothic. Check out http://www.kindt-collins.com/pattern/pattern.html (http://www.kindt-collins.com/pattern/pattern.html)
Mark Layton
Great link Mark. Thanks!
....errr, and belated welcome to the forum. Thanks for participating.
Marc
This swiss/japanes company has some very nice etched letters / numbers and plates.
http://www.h-r-f.com/aufsetzz.html brings you direct to the etched parts many in stainless or chrome.
I used them to number my swiss H0 loco's
Jacq
QuoteHave you seen either of the products you mention and could you comment on their quality?
Rich
I have the 1mm and 1.5mm sheets. You don't get a lot for your money, but the quality is good. I remembered after posting that I've also got the remains of some eastern European etched numbers/letters somewhere. From memory I think they were an Aber limited-run production. Again, they were quite good. I haven't seen the Scale Link sheet (haven't dealt with them much since the John Piper days), but as Martin says their stuff is generally reasonable quality.
Looks like there are a number of sources of letters. Thanks to all of you.
Terry Wegmann is a good friend and the fellow that does the pantograph work for Lloyd Asbury. He is truly amazing on that machine. I've seen him do the lettering on the base of an HO signal that is so small you need a magnifier to read it. But read it you can. For the really small stuff, he makes these strange single fluted cutters with a big taper. At .005" diameter, they are tough to keep from breaking. He usually makes a bunch of them and keeps replacing broken ones until he finds one that runs. It will then run for quite a while.
He might be over this weekend and if he has a signal, I'll try to get a photograph of the thing. No promises.
John
Apparently, John, Lloyd's off to Mehiko to live and bowing out, which is why my chum in Californicate has sent his D-Type masters to Harold Bradford, who is said to be the best currently pouring resin.
Hector
Hector
Lloyd's had a place in Mexico for some time (along with two senoritas. Eat your heart out Unc.). He's talked about leaving for years. Terry works with him every day so I'll get the straight story from him. When we talked for about an hour a couple weeks ago, he didn't say anything about it.
Have you ever done in engraving? I sure would like to learn.
John
Hi John, I take it you mean on a pantograph? If so, yes. I bought one in a fit of keen madness once and when I eventually got the hang of it someone gave me one >:(
Mine was a Taylor Hobson Model H, marked "War Finish" under the table. I also had the little cutter grinder, without which you got no chance of getting a smooth cut.
I used it to make bits of masters. First was the longitudinal ribbing on a bulk carrier trailer for an artic kit (you call 'em semis?). So really that was just light and very precise milling. Then I made a pattern for the commander's hatch in an Alvis light tank (Scorpion/Scimitar) which was a layered assembly. It worked a treat. It didn't take long to make a styrene pattern out of 60 thou sheet and the result made the client ask how the hell I'd done it, so that was a result, I guess.
I also used a pattern for a model locomotive wheel which I'd made when I was 14!! I knew I'd never find a proprietary wheel for this particular loco (a Hudswell, Clarke & Rogers 4-4-0 Tank for the Midland and Great Northern Joint railway), so instead of my French homework I made a 10 times bigger pattern from styrene sheet according to an article in Model Railway News (of beloved memory). I figured I might someday find a machine. Naturally that finished work on the model and by the time I had a machine I'd changed scales anyway. I still have that pattern somewhere 41 years later!! And the bits of the model I made at the time. Complete with impressed rivets, in 1/76th scale, at 14. Now can you see why I get pissed off with grown men who say they can't make things? I was no child prodigy, I just read books and articles and had no money, ergo made it. Thought, hey this is better than working for a living, so I became a pro.
Now, I can't be arsed most of the time. Difficult getting motivated these days.
If it's hand engraving you mean, then yes again, but not the florid detail on a Harley's cases or ought like that, just the panel lines on the 150 or so cars I've made brass masters for and that's done with a scriber and a graver, bought from the weirdest shop in England. A hand lithographer's and colourists' suppliers in Gt. Queen Street, London.
It's diamond shaped in section, ground off to a slope and held in a palm shaped handle.
And I've lost it and nuttn' I can find will sharpen up like it. I would imagine you can get them from silversmiths' suppliers like Shesto or Chronos.
Cheers, Hector
Hector
The pantograph I'm familiar with, it's the hand engraving that I've never seen done up close where I can get my grubby little fingers on the tools. Apparently they are some kind of chisels but what and how to control them to do such fine work is beyond me. I'd really like to be able to do that. Particularly where they do the lettering on coins.
I am also familiar with sinker EDM's, but really don't want to go there.
John