I found this site and link on another model site.. interesting concept.. The brick patterns are produced by an algorithm written by a programmer, who based on his testimony is not an experienced model builder.
http://paperbrick.co.uk/
I have attached a small screen shot of the pdf output in S scale.
My print was a bit glossy, but there may be ways to overcome that based on the paper being used. I used whatever paper was in the office printer.
So far the downloads are free.
RichD
I have done endless experiments with printed brick, and I can only speak about my experiences in 1:87. I have tried all sort of printed brick patterns, (scalescenes, clever models and numerous photoshop experiments). Printing on different papers with inkjet and laser printers. Even carving mortar lines. Nothing with satisfying results!
However, I have to say, that printed paper brick does work excellent when viewed in a photography. In that case it is far superior than any 3D brick, because the missing depth is not visible in a photo. As soon as you look at a paper model in reality the missing texture becomes apparent.
There is no easy solution. At least not for 1:87. Larger scales are different, as many of the members here have proven.
If you emboss bricks printed on a textured paper like the 90 lb. Lanaquarelle cold press I've often mentioned, the effect can be quite good. Except, of course, at the corners unless you to to extraordinary measures.
Well, maybe not as extraordinary as Nick's brick by brick approach but nonetheless tedious, as Marc's example on another thread suggested.
Here are a couple of examples of my own brick art, one from a photo, the other from just doodling around.
Russ
Here's the other one.
They look better printed out at 1:48 and neither is good enough for my own modeling; they need work or to be completely replaced. But they may give you an idea what you can do with a camera and Photoshop.
Russ
Rich -
Thanks for posting that site.
I gave it a try at 1:32 scale, using the Antique Multi brick set and a header bond. Printed the resulting file on Epson Premium Luster photo paper. Of course that paper is too shiny, but the perceived texture, coloring, and randomness of the burnt bricks is outstanding. But I did observe some artifacts of the software repeating a pattern. Approximately every 3-1/2 inches (measured horizontally) a run of vertical mortar lines is very slightly wider. It's a minor difference, just enough to be apparent. And there's a similar repeating wider horizontal mortar line approximately every 1-1/4 inches.
Curious, I tried another brick set, Wessex Mixture, and stretcher bond. This combination yielded mortar lines of consistent width.
Now for the real test - another printing of the Wessex Mixture patter, this time on Epson Cold Press Natural paper (100% cotton base textured heavy paper with natural whites, as opposed to bleached.) WOW!!! Looks very good. Ready to cut out and glue to a plywood wall.
Mark
My fast trial came out not so bad in 1/32
I just need to round up the right paper and I'll be good to go
thanks!
MPH
Happy mashed Potato Day! : - )_)
For larger scales brick by brick is the way to go. As I said, any photo is hard to judge, the ultimate test is the naked eye.
@Mark .. re: artifacts. The guy that hosts Paperbrick, Derrick Stapleford has a link where he asks suggestions or advice. Just tell him what you had a problem with. I emailed him a while back telling him that I had posted a link to his site on RRL and he promptly replied. His email is - derrick.stapleford@btinternet.com
I guess I'm missing the point here. I visited the site and looked at the artwork. The creator generously offers it for free and, yes it is scalable. So what? It is crude.
To be more specific, it's cartoonish and seems inappropriate for the kind of modeling we strive for. Yet some of us seem enthusiastically to embrace it. Why?
I'll happily rescind my comment if one of you shows us a highly realistic model using those printed digital bricks. But I'll cackle and gleefully say "I told you so" if you don't. I doubt anyone using that primitive computerized pattern of rectangles will be able to raise it to a realistic enough level.
You guys know I embrace technology and any kind of innovation, especially a shortcut that yields superior results. But I suspect the bricks in question will be a dead end for us and I find it baffling that they show up on this forum.
Russ
I believe the fellow's effort is honorable and commendable. However, even though he is using actual photographs of individual bricks to generate the random pattern, the same individual bricks in his library are repeated throughout the pattern and that is why some of the believability is lost. Also, the mortar is just a straight line and has no texture.
Here is an example and close-up of a pattern generated in HO scale when I chose random settings. I am not a brick expert (courses, etc.) so any of the choices seemed just as good as the next to me.
Parameters:
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.narrowperspective.com%2Fimages%2FRandomBrickParam.jpg&hash=b2814d50e97a7b303644c94ac0b62dc01eac296a)
Actual size of sample:
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.narrowperspective.com%2Fimages%2FRandomBrickActual.jpg&hash=eebb90a3a165b8efb0aaa4ffd81b167f7b28be4f)
Close-up of sample:
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.narrowperspective.com%2Fimages%2FRandomBrick.jpg&hash=39a1977b292ffcd35b04f8f84c944b89d87fe85a)
Note in the close-up the brick on the top left corner is the same one as in the bottom right corner. Also, there are three of the same brick in the bottom course and the brick on the left of the bottom right corner is repeated twice in the bottom course and found again in the top course.
It does appear to me in the close up that these are actual images of a single brick. As I've stated above perhaps the pattern is not random enough or the mortar takes away from the illusion.
I wonder if the fellow added mirror images of each brick as well as upside-down images would that help?
Jaime
For one thing the lines are too dark...at most he should use a med grey...or a "shaded"/gradated line that is darker at the top half than at the bottom (to imitate the sun/light shadow in the recessed mortar joint)
To get an older looking wall it might also help if the line had a very slight bit of a ragged or deckled edge; to hint at, or give the impression of, worn or slightly chipped edges of the brick.
M
I agree the grout should be a lighter Gray color.
I think the printed brick would work well in interiors of buildings, esp in the smaller scales.
There are posibilities.
This focus on color and photo renderings of individual bricks is misdirected. It should be focused on ways to achieve the 3rd dimension. Because you can make the bricks photo perfect, but paper brick is not going to be right until it has the 3-dimensionality of bricks and mortar. That is the bottom line.
@Curb .. just like point out that you can select the mortar color .. http://paperbrick.co.uk/index.php?action=browsemortarcolours
I have been carrying on an exchange with him and he's looking at apply light and shadow to the mortar. He certainly seems willing to work to improve the prints ... he's a programmer that is just getting into modeling as a hobby. I pointed him at the thread and the suggestions to improve the brick sheets.
Dave's comment is really important. However generous the programmer may be, the results lack artistry and realism in two crucial ways.
Many of you have criticized the "artwork" for being too perfect, insufficiently random, and lacking proper coloration and you are absolutely correct. But, even in a model as small as HO scale, art is only part of the issue. The rest is texture. Dave's laser cut brick walls have three dimensions. They suggest human imperfection and the ravages of weather. The best we can do with even my photograph of a brick wall is to scribe the courses. But that still leaves all brick faces on the same plane.
If the absence of random height and depth seems too "nitpicky" to some of you, remember what forum you are visiting. This isn't a "how to weather your Plasticville" group; it is a "how to get as close to perfection as possible" group.
To my eye, the best way to achieve that is with a laser or with superior artwork and some kind of individual or semi-individual brick technique, at least in random spots (e.g., an overlay) and with interlocking corners.
Stay focused, guys. "Keep your eye upon the doughnut, not upon the hole".
Russ
What's wrong with doughnut holes!? :-\ ;D
I believe in th fine line between the doughnut and the hole. :P ;D
M
"I believe in the fine line between the doughnut and the hole."
Unfortunately, we all have known that for some time. In fact your mom asked me and your doctors to talk to you about that ....
ssuR
In my opinion, short sighted as it is, remember a "Potato" has hundreds of eyes, it all comes down to scale "viewing" distance, each scale has it's detail viewing limits, sure if you have a magnifying glass you can find every flaw, but when viewed at a scale distance, what can you see, but more important what does your eye see? If you look at an impressionist painting close up all you see is a bunch of dots of color, but when viewed at the correct distance Viola! Masterpiece!!!
I thing we can all agree for foreground work nothing beats brick on brick, or board on board, but right past foreground and from middle ground to background what can your eye see? We are all different, build to what you can see, or what others can see.
I think that for foundations and quick buildings in the middle to back ground it looks rather convincing, and if you do what "Unc" does and embellish it you can get "believable" results! Don't forget all "Masterpiece" paintings are "two dimensional" fooling your eye to be three dimensional
MPH
MFA CSULB 1979
::)
Agreed, but fine scale modelling implies detailed foreground work as Russ said. And a flat sheet of paper brick will betray its lack of depth at middle or far range, when the light strikes it at a certain angle and reflects back a solid sheen. On the other hand, a model with depth and texture that looks good close range will look good at any distance.
I'm also not sure how appropriate it is to compare a painting to a scale model. If you take the concept to the extreme, it doesn't really hold together. To demonstrate what I mean about the division between painting and model making consider this-- If Picasso painted an abstract impression of a chair, it would still be a painting. If a model maker could somehow reproduce this Picasso chair in 3d, it would no longer be a scale model, it would be a sculpture. Two different art forms.
Dave
Feel I have got to jump in on this thread ................. no disagreement over all the comments over "finescale work" but I do think we are missing the most important point here.
This gentleman has devised a programme, stated very clearly that he is not a model maker and has welcomed suggestions for improvements. I have already suggested one or 2 things, such as including 1/35 scale in the scale options ............. had an e-mail back from thanking me for my comments and I see that he has amended his options accordingly. Hopefully in the future he can add correct brick patterns for around doors, arches etc ........
So we have a guy trying to do something for the hobby, willing to listen and amend his work .............. think it would be a lot more positive to say thanks its a good start and here are some ideas for improving it even more, rather than dismiss it out hand.
I may never use the printed brick work as such but will more than likely use it as a template for laying card brick slips over ..... and it will save me a lot of time drawing out all the various brick patterns.
So lets please welcome what the guy is trying to do & as he asked help him improve it
Thanks gfadvance for you comments.
Your comments and clarity are exactly why I posted this link in the first place. To me, there is a difference in what type and purpose of model is being built. If it is a forground model, that will get lots of close up attention, sitting on the edge of a railroad layout or a diorama, then one approach is warranted.. with all the scale detail in all the correct proportions etc.
But on the other hand, if the model is going to set back a foot or more.. and noone is going to be able to distinquish whether the morter lines are scale or have depth, then anything that helps create the illusion of reality in a shorter period of time, should be fair game also.
Thanks again for your voice of reason.
I too left this gentleman a couple of comments and he responded within 24 hours and was also very appreicative..
Rich D
If Picasso painted an abstract impression of a chair, it would still be a painting. If a model maker could somehow reproduce this Picasso chair in 3d, it would no longer be a scale model, it would be a sculpture. Two different art forms.
Dave,
Pablo Diego José Francisco de Paula Juan Nepomuceno María de los Remedios Cipriano de la Santísima Trinidad Ruiz y Picasso
Was a cubist, so he wouldn't be painting a abstract to begin with and if someone wanted to make a model of a Abstract chair, it would still be a model or a copy.
Media defines form, so a sculpture would always be a sculpture.
Finescale, is our devotion, our passion, our muse, or what ever "term" you want to associate with it, but modeling and painting is art, and I have said this a million times there is no bad "ART" only bad art critics, Art for Arts sake
I say go with it if it makes you happy
MPH
I think we should focus our ideas about this subject.
On the one hand, any hobbyist should feel completely justified in approaching his own models in whatever way he wants, whether or not he has an ounce of talent or taste. In other words, hobbies exist as a creative pastime where you satisfy yourself regardless of what others do or think. As you guys know, in Outdoor Railroader and Finescale Railroader, I tried to promote that principle by publishing every photo I received, even when the model was horrid.
But, on this forum, our aim is to build ever better models, not to take unnecessary shortcuts by deliberately using inferior materials. This isn't a forum about background models and toy train layouts. So a defense of the programmer or the use of his (currently) crude artwork is out of place ON THIS FORUM and ONLY on this forum.
In other words, I don't disagree with anybody's opinion about what he wants to use for a background structure on his layout and I applaud the programmer for trying to help and for wanting to improve. But his work ain't ready for prime time and this is an inappropriate place to showcase it. Think about that ... and then ask yourself whether you would display a six year old's drawing of stick figures next to a Rembrandt. Similarly, when you read a comment, please respond mainly to the reasoning behind it rather than to individual supporting sentences.
So, to repeat my earlier challenge: If one of you guys can turn that PDF brick stuff into a credible and impressive model, I'll be happy to change my opinion about its relevance. So far I've seen nothing but verbal justification.
Russ
My point about the abstract impression of a chair was that a model built in the style of Picasso would not be a good scale model of whatever actual chair Picasso interpreted. It would convey very little information about the the 1/1 prototype chair, though it might be a very interesting sculpture.
Its relevant to model making, because distortion caused by straying from the prototype and or using inferior materials and shortcuts, without the conscious application of artistic skill is just distortion. Call me a bad art critic, but I will be so bold as to say most model makers, myself included, lack that artistic skill.
Dave
it's like baseball, given enough time a practice everyone should be able to hit a pitched ball, and then here comes the curve ball and then the splitter, and so on,...............there's plenty of art out there and plenty of modeling out there, but who's to say whats good and just plain bad? but I have seen ordinay materials turned into majestic art, just look at the Watts towers! :'( :: :o ;D
they just don't hand out the term artistic genius ;)
MPH
It sounds like we are agreeing then. The difference between watts towers and a big heap of junk was the innate artistic sense of Simon Rodia. Rodias are rare. In painting, the hand and personality and interpretation of the artist is desirable, its part of what sets it apart from photography. But a model is a technical thing, ideally it shows everything of the prorotype and nothing of the hand that built it. Its more a blueprint than a sketch. Stray too far from the prototype and its no longer a model. Which is why I don't think its fair to compare a scale model to an impressionist painting.
QuoteSo, to repeat my earlier challenge: If one of you guys can turn that PDF brick stuff into a credible and impressive model, I'll be happy to change my opinion about its relevance. So far I've seen nothing but verbal justification.
Russ
What do I get if I pull it off???...is this really a challenge you want to put out there for me? ( in reality, my other commitments won't allow me to do it.)
...tell you what, I'll do it in exchange for getting the Mag delivered here to Cali before it being shipped to the rest of the world.
In this whole discussion I have to side and agree with what Gordon has said. I applaud the gentleman for taking the time and effort to do/create this, and be responsive to, and interested in, feedback. If more mfrs in the RR realm would take his approach to trying new technology and methods, and being responsive to the needs of their customers, we would have far better and diverse products.
I for one would not be adverse to using printed brick in the right application for a foreground model...heck I have already used printed siding for such.
M
"I could play basketball as well as Kobe Bryant if I really wanted to. I just don't want to." -- Russ
Marc.. I am glad to read your input. I was hoping this community could help/suggest/assist with a new idea and/or approach. I have left this gentleman several ideas based on the comments in this thread.
Some of them were:
- Use a randon number generator to select the images of brick being 'laid' up so that they don't have the re-occuring pattern some have found. but also being careful not to let the randon generator pick the same image 2 times in a row..etc
- I suggested he ask for other people to offer more brick images to choose from.. so that his universe of brick is larger
- I also suggested he experiment with real images of mortar. It will be harder, but he could overlay the brick images with mortor images and give them a more rugged appearance some have mentioned.. This should be a good challenge to him as a programmer.
- and I suggested he suggest the best way to print and the best paper to use that would reduce the glare and shine.
A shot of dullcoat might help to reduce the glare.
What I have not suggested yet is that he 'invent' some kind of embossing tool (like a roller with 'tiny' impressions) to pass the printed paper though. If someone has access to a machine shop, something could be tried.
For my scale (S) the indentation of mortar lines would be very very slight. At 1/4" depth (typical mortar line where I live) that would be .25/64 = .004 of an inch. I am not sure how many would really be able to see it except under a lens. However, I do believe that if you ran a finger nail over it, you would feel it.
If my ideas work, then this would be a nice and quick alternative to plain paper bricks.. at least for the foreground models.
Thanks for your comments Marc
Rich D
Dave
With all do respect, no I am not agreeing with you and now that the gauntlet has been dropped by our imperial leader! Marc will charge forth and pick up the gauntlet and prove once and for all that it can be done! C'mon Marc! Don't let me down! ::) ::)
MPH
Anyway, I'm not saying there is no potential in printed paper brick. I believe there is. I just don't think making each printed brick a unique photo of an individual brick is heading in the right direction. Because that doesn't solve the larger issue of depth and texture and until that's addressed, its all moot.
And I don't think depth/texture problem is insurmountable, I just don't think it accomplishes anything to brush the issue off as some form of artistic impressionism, just because the problem doesn't pose an immediate solution. To me, its more interesting to look at it as a technical problem to solve.
The first thing I would look at is how to completely kill the sheen of printed paper so that it looks more like masonry, and less like wallpaper. The problem, as far as I've gone with it is, that using matte paper produces less crisp printing than shiny or finely textured paper. Which means the paper needs to be made completely matte, which means adding a matte coat or phsysical texture. None of the my usual matte varnishes gave me the results I wanted. I have some brick paper sold by MicroMark in which they tried to solve some of the texture/depth problem by adding a pebble finish. Which looks fairly ridiculous in person, so that's out.
Any ideas?
Dave
I have a alps four color printer and my friend is in R&D at HP, so send me a file and I will try and print them up for you and see what we get?
I can also use a finish cartridge after printing for different effects, now my alps is low tech in DPI that's why my friend at HP has access to some pretty amazing printers, if you could see some of the things he's done for me! Pretty incredible, heck if the economy gets any worse we might need to think about printing green backs! 8) 8) 8)
Just kidding FBI ::) ;D
MPH
Once again I will suggest using Lanaquarelle cold press paper if you want to print (and emboss) bricks. It takes inkjet printing well and has a textured (almost dead flat) matte finish very appropriate for brick, stone, and wood. (I have covered this subject extensively in various articles in my books, including the current Modelers' Annual.) Also several times on this forum.
In the case of brick and stone, at least, it's okay if the printed image is not quite crisp. Trust me; I've studied the results under high magnification. The main problem will be that all brick and stone surfaces will be on the same plane. Some of you dismiss that. That's either because you don't understand or because you are less critical. The latter is okay; the former can be illustrated.
Try using the attached image as your artwork if you want to mess with printed bricks. For goodness' sake, DON'T print on glossy paper or, for that matter, on any dedicated photo paper. And Dullcote over glossy paper is a waste of time. (Why must I explain these things so often?)
MicroMark's pebbled brick paper is horrible. Don't even consider it. Not only is the color and printing bad but the pebbling is just as Dave describes: ridiculous.
The majority seems to disagree with me on this topic so I guess I'll butt out and let you learn the hard way. And, before somebody says Marc will make those PDF bricks look good so everything Dave and I have pointed out is silly, I will say that Marc would have far better results with different artwork and I guarantee anything he might produce as the Devil's advocate won't be the result of a quick and dirty wash and a few dabs of pastel chalk.
Russ
Cool. Is there any color printer which applies films instead of ink? Or a color printer which uses a thick pigment? Because maybe a printer that applies pigment or film which has some thickness, would print bricks which have actual depth.
Dave
Russ, right on the paper, thanks for the reminder.
There are a couple of applications where I think printed brick might work OK. For example the front walls of residential tenements are often facades of fine quality brick, laid with great care and precision. From the sidewalk, they sort of look fake, because they are so perfect, smooth and on the same plane. Might be reasonable to use paper there. Don't know, need to try it and see.
And should Marc produce a prototype, refer back to Christian's comment early in the thread. Printed brick looking good in a photo doesn't count, printed brick looks awesome in photos. Its in person, under stereoscopic scrutiny of the Mk 1 eyeball where it counts.
Keep on posting to the thread, so's I don't feel ganged up on. ;D
Dave
Dave,
My neighbor is a graphic and packaging designer, and she has a really awesome printer (think it was an Epson...but not the cheap buy it at the Office Despot kind), that prints in completely opaque and matte inks....they are almost like an ultra thin layer of paint. She did some color comps for us on full bleed sheets, and I thought the stuff was airbrushed Guache, when I first saw it. I will ask her what the printer and inks are next time I see her.
Russ,
Of course it wasn't going to be a lickety-split operation to turn those into the "nearly indistinguishable from and individual brick wall"....but, it could be done...and would probably only take 1/3 of the time....which is IMO is a great for interior usage, or specific areas that are properly disguised and blended into the model.
_____
One thing I would like to point out, is that I think we are focusing here on one type of percieved brick and brick wall appearance. There are many old brick walls that are perfectly even in brick face and alignment, and where all the bricks have a slight satin surface......I have frequently seen these walls in buidings ranging from simple homes, to urban and huge industrial structures...yes even in completely derelict and abandoned structures that would give any decay-aholic an orgasm...with examples ranging from current day, to over 100 years old.....so this whole argument about dead matte, and what paper, (though good, informative and valuable) in some part only applies to a limited range/type of brick walls....and that limited idea of what a brick wall should look like is almost exactly that which guys like George Selios, Tom Yorke, and others of the charicature school espouse.....so IMO somewhat short sighted. :)
Marc
So I accosted my neighbor and asked what she had used.for our comps....apparently I was mistaken about the printer....it was done on a simple inexpensive HP- 5600 thermal inkjet, she said the trick was using a Canon matte photo paper. This allowed for the dead flat finish, the proper color rendition and the appearance of it being a layered opaque ink. She noted that one had to set the printer (output quality, saturation etc,) and image (dpi) settings to the proper/needed settings.
She was willing to do a scale test sheet for me, but I didn't want to bother her...and I dont have the time to find/download the image, set it up, email it and then muck around with it anyhow. :)
M
Remember, guys: Dedicated inkjet photo papers -- ALL OF THEM -- are very delicate. They have a surface layer of powder to allow minimal ink bleed. It's very easy to scratch or chip them when modeling and the result is white flecks you can't repair or touch up properly. -- Russ
Quote from: finescalerr on November 29, 2011, 08:43:37 PM
Remember, guys: Dedicated inkjet photo papers -- ALL OF THEM -- are very delicate. They have a surface layer of powder to allow minimal ink bleed. It's very easy to scratch or chip them when modeling and the result is white flecks you can't repair or touch up properly. -- Russ
"Always with the negative waves Moriarty, always with the negative waves."
So in conclusion . Brick by brick is the way to go .
Quote from: shropshire lad on November 30, 2011, 12:16:41 AM
So in conclusion . Brick by brick is the way to go .
... FULL ACK, especially because I'm one of the individual brick laying fraction too ... ;) ... apart from the fact, that I additional to that would like to improve on the chip board brick walls (http://www.finescalerr.com/smf/index.php?topic=1468.0), but it was impossible to find a workshop/copy shop who would do that kind of laser cutting chip board 'round here: "Sorry sir, but we don't accept orders like
THAT!" ... Germany sometimes seems to be a wasteland regarding service and customer orientation ... :P
Quote from: marc_reusser on November 29, 2011, 02:08:35 PM
... One thing I would like to point out, is that I think we are focusing here on one type of percieved brick and brick wall appearance. There are many old brick walls that are perfectly even in brick face and alignment, and where all the bricks have a slight satin surface......I have frequently seen these walls in buidings ranging from simple homes, to urban and huge industrial structures...yes even in completely derelict and abandoned structures that would give any decay-aholic an orgasm...with examples ranging from current day, to over 100 years old.....so this whole argument about dead matte, and what paper, (though good, informative and valuable) in some part only applies to a limited range/type of brick walls....and that limited idea of what a brick wall should look like is almost exactly that which guys like George Selios, Tom Yorke, and others of the charicature school espouse.....so IMO somewhat short sighted. :)
... for example this one, at least about 300 years old, reconditioned about 100 years ago ...
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.feldbahnmodellbau.de%2Fgallery%2Fimage.php%3Falbum_id%3D11%26amp%3Bimage_id%3D302&hash=b0eebf6411305b5a5cbe1f9be3cf0a05f5166c46)
... OK - a little bit dusty at the moment, but I do not have a photo of the other side(s) yet ... (mumbling: "got to find another one ...") ...
Cheers
EDIT ... so here's another one .. not
that old, but with the above mentioned appearance (slight satin surface):
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.feldbahnmodellbau.de%2Fgallery%2Fimage.php%3Falbum_id%3D11%26amp%3Bimage_id%3D339&hash=05065bec6ec465244a0915d0ce1f86d445f8d23e)
Russ's focus on coarse brick I think is correct because, although its a bit of a cliche, it is indeed common in the 1/1 world and, in my experience, the hardest to realistically reproduce in miniature. Its basically the gold standard for brick. If this can be done, then any other type can be done. Personally I've set my expectations a lot lower for what can be done with printed paper.
Here is an example of the above-referenced front facade brick, very common around here. It is very regular with high contrast between the brick and mortar, but without a lot of depth between them. It is completely matte. On this particular wall on Smith Street in Brooklyn, the mortar has been brought right up to the brick surface. In 1/1 scale, viewed from across the street, depth is almost imperceptible. Without the sun at a steep angle casting shadows, it looks like a perfectly flat wall. So in 1/87 or smaller, its a possible application for printed paper, which is high contrast, zero depth.
Which leads me to wonder how much depth needs to be added to 1/87 paper brick for it to stop looking like a slipshod phony veneer and start looking like a wall composed of individual units. Maybe in applications like this, not every mortar line needs to be indented, maybe just some random embossed bricks, or mortar lines, is enough to break up the surface. Or maybe it only needs to be completely matte without a hint of sheen. Maybe some texture can be added by pressing the paper with sandpaper, maybe before printing, so it doesn't chip the ink. I don't know, I'd need to test it.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi655.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu276%2FDaveKrakow%2FSmithStreetBklyn.jpg&hash=a4d85f85a3f2fd6bb7636b4a2b793ec5d32633d5)
I have removed the last several posts, including my own. Some were funny but things went too far off topic and nothing was really worth saving. Instead I would rather see this discussion focus on the most effective ways to represent brick, whether with paper or other materials or a combination. The debate about perception and modeling standards, while sometimes frustrating, also could reveal some lessons. All of us are better modelers and philosophers than comedians or politicians. -- Russ
OK, I read Russ' last message and although this is not paper, I thought some might be interested in this material/process. At the last Crafstman Structure show, Jimmy Simmons of http://www.monstermodelworks.com/ (http://www.monstermodelworks.com/) had a new (to me) brick pattern, laser cut into basswood.
He uses raster cutting with the laser to cut these from a photograph, not layout lines, so the result is more life like.
He offered a sample at the show so I painted and finished it to see what it looks like.
I used WalMart gray primer and then acrylic colors over that. Then using my cornstarch mortar technique and an overcoat of matte spray to get the finished product. I really like the results and he also offers this product in a newer brick pattern.
As a comparison, here's some laserboard material from Rusty Stumps Scale Models http://www.rustystumps.com/proddetail.asp?prod=L1502 (http://www.rustystumps.com/proddetail.asp?prod=L1502), cut using a layout and vector cutting. The aged brick pattern is good but not with the depth and authenticity of the photograph cut product.
I used the same finishing process on these.
the basswood bricks look pretty good!
I'd like to see some larger images.
-Marty
Very interesting! This is the first time I have seen anybody offer this commercially. I have tried Rusty Stumps brick sheets, but I was not happy with them at all! I think I might have to give these a try.
The first time I have seen this brick engraving into wood was by good old Dave Krakow in his CSS09 in his Stanton Street diorama.
http://vectorcut.com/Diorama
But we are drifting off topic anyway since a laser and a printer are hardly the same.
Until color pigment 3D printers become available, of course! ;D
Christian is so damn modest he shows off my tired old stuff, and hides his own new stuff under a bushel. But yeh this is an apples to oranges comparison. Though I do wonder what would happen if 3d lasered card brick was run through a color printer with some sort of brick colored graphic. I mean, besides jamming up the printer.
BKLN...that is an interesting comment. I don't have a Makebot Thing-O-Matic... but this would be an interesting experiment. 3D printers are usually thought of or used for a full 3D item... but what if someone used a 3D printer to 'only' lay down a thin layer of bricks on a substrate of somekind. Like a brick facade, only a few thousands thick (a raised surface). The mortar lines would 'NOT' be printed, they would be in the same plane as the substrate.
And to take this even further, the 3D print (object) could actually be the master for a brick impression mold.
So depending on the resolution of the 3D printer, the brick could be very very scale with texture also.
Any additional thoughts/comments?
RichD
Quote from: DaKra on December 08, 2011, 09:55:50 AM
Though I do wonder what would happen if 3d lasered card brick was run through a color printer with some sort of brick colored graphic. I mean, besides jamming up the printer.
;D ;D ;D
I would think this might be one of the cases where the laser would beat the 3D printer due to resolution. But that's a guess.
But let's get back to paper bricks. Obviously, the ideal solution would be to laser engrave printed paper. To a certain degree this works. But the alignment of print and "laser pattern" is very delicate. Right now there is no easy solution.
Well, the topic is actually a comparison of paper brick against other methods, right? If so, that means a printed photo of a brick wall must be competitive with Jimmy's or Dave's laser bricks ... or Marc's individual chipboard bricks ... and ultimately Nick's individual plaster/clay bricks.
Jimmy has promised me a sample of his bricks. When it arrives I'll shoot a close up. He plans to offer them in all scales.
So the idea of using any kind of device to add texture, depth, and variety to printed bricks is spot on ... but how the heck would you accomplish it?
As I see it, paper currently wins on color and realistic photo appearance but, depending on the kind of wall, loses on texture. And remember the corners!
Russ
I'd say paper is the winner regarding corners. Simple score and fold. If you wanted to be fussy, adjust the graphic for proper appearance either side of the fold.
The following comments only apply to HO and maybe O scale. Larger scale needs individual brick pieces.
There are a couple of of embossed printed papers. Germany's "Faller" comes to mind, a weirdly colored brick that has been around for at least 30 years. The concept is good, but the problem is that the texture is embossed rather than cut. And the alignment between printed brick and stamped brick is the other big problem. And then there is the problem of material thickness. In order to stamp the paper, you need a certain paperweight, but that prohibits folding around corners.
Another possible option would be professional printing with a raised ink. This is ink is heat activated and has a slightly bubbly texture. (often found on business cards of used car dealers, stripers or cheap lawyers) A really good printer could run a high res 4color print and add a clear texture ink. The problem here is obviously the investment into a full print run.
I am not sure if Thom of Clever Models is still hanging out here, but I am sure he has some experiences to share about this.
How about silk screening the way decals are made (sometimes) but over laser engraved brick?
Actually the laser engraving would be unnecessary, if the silk screen pigment were thick enough. Just a silk screen brick pattern on grey, lightly textured, mortar colored paper would work.
I have seen the raised ink stuff. Generally dreadful.
What would be the advantage of silk screening over hand embossing an inkjet printed matte photo? Time? The photo would look better and hand embossing goes much more quickly than laying individual bricks.
Having tried and seen the results of shortcut methods (like embossing), I might be inclined to lay individual bricks, whether printed or painted paper/card/chipboard, even in 1:48. In HO I would emboss (if my mind, hand, and eyes could withstand the torture).
The ideal would be to combine a photo with Dave's laser bricks.
Russ
Press type printers line up color layers all the time. I wonder if there is a desk-top press type machine that could carry a critical alignment.
One thinks an old Gutenburg style press (non-roller path) could handle Dave's lasered brick sheets because of the vertical-only path and the opportunity for precise alignment.
John
So many options... Paper can be amazing.... especially when modeling board on board with strips of paper... Frederick Testard is amazing with paper.
I have also had success engraving the brick onto .030 chipboard...
Paper is good modeling material but not necessarily better than wood, styrene, plaster/clay, or even metal (depending on the application). I think its strongest asset is that you can print a photograph on it; that is what sets it apart.
Using bits of chipboard in place of individual plaster bricks, for example, still results in a wall you must paint. Few people can paint a brick (wall) to look as realistic as a photo of a brick (wall).
So how do we print photos of actual bricks on paper and then cut out the bricks so they have the imperfect and chipped edges you an create with plaster or clay? How could we use use laser engraving to achieve that effect on a printed paper sheet without scorching the mortar?
If somebody solves that problem, it might be possible to replace painted bricks with printed bricks. But until that day, the brick-by-brick approach (by Nick, Marc, Marcel Ackel, and others) is probably the best I've seen
Russ
Quote from: finescalerr on December 11, 2011, 12:55:46 PM
Paper is good modeling material but not necessarily better than wood, styrene, plaster/clay, or even metal (depending on the application). I think its strongest asset is that you can print a photograph on it; that is what sets it apart.
Using bits of chipboard in place of individual plaster bricks, for example, still results in a wall you must paint. Few people can paint a brick (wall) to look as realistic as a photo of a brick (wall).
So how do we print photos of actual bricks on paper and then cut out the bricks so they have the imperfect and chipped edges you an create with plaster or clay? How could we use use laser engraving to achieve that effect on a printed paper sheet without scorching the mortar?
If somebody solves that problem, it might be possible to replace painted bricks with printed bricks. But until that day, the brick-by-brick approach (by Nick, Marc, Marcel Ackel, and others) is probably the best I've seen
Russ
All this talk of printing pictures of brickwork onto card and paper suddenly reminded me that this sort of thing has been done to an unsupassed standard for decades at the Pendon Museum in Oxfordshire , England out of card .I haven't managed to get there yet , but if Jacq is reading this he will confirm what I'm saying .Check out their website http://www.pendonmuseum.com/index.php
There is a book called " Cottage Modelling for Pendon" by Chris Pilton , published by Wild Swan , that goes into great detail how they go about making their buildings . Bearing in mind that it is all modelled in OO scale the level of detail they achieve is greater than most people can do in O scale .The biggest shame about the book is that it is mostly in black and white so you can't get the full effect that they manage to achieve . Worth tracking down a copy if you are interested in this sort of modelling .
Incidentally , trying to use the brick-by-brick approach on anything smaller than 1/48th scale is shere madness and demands that person be carted off by men in white coats .
Nick
The buildings at the Pendon Museum are truly outstanding and so is the scenery - have been there. Remember the buildings are small and I´m not sure their techniques would work for larger scales. Anyone visiting the U.K. should try and visit Pendon - about an hour from London by train plus a short cab ride from the train station. Their web site is really weak....too bad!
Anders
Yes, their website is really disappointing despite the magnificence of the modeling. And, even in 1:48, brick by brick requires a special kind of insanity; it is mind numbing enough just to scribe a couple of square inches let alone to place individual bricks.
But, more importantly, so far nobody has come up with answers to my questions. Could it be that there is no satisfactory answer?
Russ
Quote from: finescalerr on December 12, 2011, 12:34:47 PM
...... brick by brick requires a special kind of insanity; it is mind numbing enough just to scribe a couple of square inches let alone to place individual bricks.
Russ
Speak for yourself there.... I for one find at a kind of and enjoyable stressful zen.
"Well, the real reason that you've been sent over here is because they wanted you to be evaluated... to determine whether or not you are mentally ill. Why do you think they might think that?"M
Right... well, I was eyeing the doughnut, as Russ likes to say, and tried embossing brick onto paper, by hand, from laser cut wall. Which was easy enough and gives fairly pleasing results.
Here is a quick test on a 2x2" square of some printer paper. This is embossed paper, no laser engraving involved.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi655.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu276%2FDaveKrakow%2Fpaper1.jpg&hash=37d69f9f46155d22f7c686550ecfcac6c921ce6f) (https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi655.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu276%2FDaveKrakow%2Fpaper2.jpg&hash=9100c4e383f2713e4635afbb157d0fda3bca1845)
So that is one step further to good paper brick. Next step would be cutting an embossing tool to match a good brick wall graphic.
Dave
What did you use to emboss that?
This high tech tool :)
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.webstaurantstore.com%2Fround-toothpicks%2Fround-toothpicks.jpg&hash=5ebbe7d5c966d4702538a84c0ef899ce3d3e6268)
So that's what you have been doing all day!!!
Do I detect some surface variation among the brick faces? Is it standard 20 lb printer paper? Can you figure out a way to register an embossing tool precisely to an inkjet print?
Nice donut!
Russ
@ Russ, yes there is surface variation. Package says 22lb paper. Registering the embossing tool to the the graphic is not really a problem since its done by hand. Ideally the graphic would have regular spaced bricks, so that a small embossing tool could be repeated over the surface to make a larger sheet. Tool would fit into the grooves left by a previous row and self-align.
@ BKLN, yeah, between naps. ;D
Actually, Dave, I was thinking about taking an inkjet printed photo of a real brick wall and embossing it with some kind of tooling to produce multiple copies, for mass production.
But an idea just popped into my thick head having nothing to do with printing: What if you made a wall, such as the one you created with a laser. Then you make a female version of the same wall with resin or whatever. Register the two. The result is a press. You put a sheet of paper between them, push down, and the result is 3D bricks. You could create a thousand copies if necessary.
Now how do you do the same thing with an inkjet photo?
Russ
What use is making an embossing press for just one wall configuration? What happens if I want a different configuration. What if I want different door and window sizes, or different headers. Same goes for the whole "photo of a wall" idea.
I'm sorry...and maybe it's just me...but I think this trolly has gone off the track, and we have beaten the same horse a couple of times in this thread.
Wasn't the whole intent of this thread to explore ways that EACH INDIVIDUAL MODELER could create the walls they wanted or needed from paper?
Whenever you create a mold, a press, or a photo to emboss, you are making one wall type...so unless you are planning to make a kit with specific walls, these processes are pretty worthless, because you are absolutely limiting creativity, design and diversity. ......so pretty much useless for scratchbuilding, unless the builder wants that specific design/layout.
Quote from: marc_reusser on December 13, 2011, 03:38:11 AM
I'm sorry...and maybe it's just me...
... nope, me too ...
Quote from: marc_reusser on December 13, 2011, 03:38:11 AM
... but I think this trolly has gone off the track, and we have beaten the same horse a couple of times in this thread...
... FULL ACK ...
Quote from: marc_reusser on December 13, 2011, 03:38:11 AM
What use is making an embossing press for just one wall configuration? What happens if I want a different configuration. What if I want different door and window sizes, or different headers. Same goes for the whole "photo of a wall" idea.
.. I think every mentioned method or attempt has it's value, but not in general use ... IMHO wall building brick-by-brick (regardless if REAL miniature bricks, chip board or paper bricks) seems to be the most time consuming ... as well as the best way ...
Cheers
In H0 or 00 embossing gives very credible results, as seen in Pendon and some other layouts.
In larger scales imho nothing beats Nick's method of brick by brick using scale size spacers and the correct bond.
Finding the right bricks and colouring them is the biggest challenge.
Jacq
I don't think we are off track here. But we are not discussing anything new either. Dave's approach is neat, but not the answer. I think his experiments with the laser are way more accurate and his simple recipe for painting seems to work just fine. Again, I can only talk about O-scale and HO-scale here. Anything larger should be done with individual bricks.
But while Marc's approach is certainly more authentic, it also not efficient for everybody. I make city buildings - I need brick sheets. And yes, I did try to emboss printed paper in the same manner, but I was just not happy with the results. Embossing is exactly what it says it is. It is manually compressed material instead of cut , which means that the results is a "bubble brick". That effect can clearly be seen on Dave's sample.
So until I see the perfect laser engraving of a printed brick I will stick with styrene and and hand painting.
Here is an interesting shot from "alainj" on a french forum. The craftsmanship is excellent, but despite all the three dimensional work, it is still recognizable as paper. The mortar lines are just not there.
http://teamtrack.xooit.com/t912-Traction-Avenue.htm
If you want to spend a considerable amount of time (between naps of course) to make a prize-worthy donut hole of an individual diorama model then by all means put on the tri-focals and build the 1:48 or 1:87.1 wall brick by brick.
If a goal is to make a street scene or town street in addition to other endeavors (i.e. a layout) then another method is necessary. I think if someone like Dave could make sectional embossing masters that could be arranged in a box like strips from an old linotype machine one could have some flexibility with efficiency if embossing was the method of choice.
John
Not sure what is going on here:
http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=35132
wowzers
Quote from: Chuck Doan on December 13, 2011, 03:59:12 PM
Not sure what is going on here:
http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=35132
If you click the link to his blog, there are more details ... he prepainted the material, THEN laser cut the mortar lines:
http://www.randomrailroad.blogspot.com/
Nice work! And absolutely a step in the right direction.
Wow! Looks to me like he's solved the "how to make realistic bricks using paper" question, at least in 1/48th scale. Too bad it requires having your own laser cutter.
I think you could come very, very close with a photo of a brick wall and an embossing tool. The brick faces, unlike those Dave created, are all on the same plane. Nothing necessarily wrong with that, depending on what you are trying to represent, but it does have its limitations.
I'll be gone for about 24 hours but if this subject is still being discussed when I'm back, I'll try to remember to shoot a photo of embossed printed brick so you can see what I mean.
Russ
Here is a good example of Paperbrick done in On30 and unless you are less than 12'" from the building its hard to tell.
This is the layout of Troels Kirk, a Danish Artist living in Sweden modeling the US east coast, posted on the Railroad-line Forum. I've seen his work in person and it is very impressive to say the least.
This picture is part of vol. 4 of 5 in an ongoing thread of his ever growing layout. Have a look, the picture is about the fifth post down.
http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=32687&whichpage=38&SearchTerms=Coast,Line,RR,vol.,4.
All his buildings are card stock or foam coreboard finished with laser-jet printed brick or hand painted paperstrips. I think this is quite amazing considering he's an artist not a model builder.
Ralph
Ralph, as you know, since you've visited there, he hand paints over all his brick to get the desired results so it is not truly a printed brick. It is more of a pattern guide for Troels to follow when he improves colors or adds his weathering.
Dave,
90% of the work on his brick walls is done in Photoshop,(the shadows the shading and enhancing the colour), the weathering streaks and rust are brushed on.
Ralph
I had promised some photos and last night I had a chance to shoot them. First is Jimmy Simmons' 1:87 scale "new brick" laser cut wood sheet. -- Russ
Next is Jimmy's "old brick" sheet, also HO scale. His samples arrived yesterday. The separate column on the left is how he handles corners: A two sided laser cut piece that abuts the main sheet. -- Russ
Finally, Jimmy's (Monster ModelWorks) chimney and trim pieces. Again, HO scale. -- Russ
Jimmy's chimney is on the left, by the way. It is laser cut on all four sides.
The photo below is embossed paper inkjet print. I think I posted an image of the original artwork a page or two back on this thread. It's pretty obvious where the embossing ends and you lazy guys who think you can skip that step had better think again.
Russ
This final shot may be superfluous because it's a close up. The bricks are 1:48 scale. It's nothing more than an inkjet photo I printed on some artist's pencil sketch paper from Canson (I think) and embossed with a rounded finishing nail. It lacks the brick-to-brick surface variation Dave (Dakra) achieves with his VectorCut products but, of course, you don't have to paint or weather a photo! -- Russ
I think the printed an embossed paper brick looks pretty good. In conjunction with other wall details (cables, signs, lintels) you should get a convincing result. You might also want try to cut out a couple of bricks, and replace them from the back. I tried that unsuccessfully with HO printed brick, but it might work 1/48.
Quote from: finescalerr on December 21, 2011, 01:25:52 AM
This final shot may be superfluous because it's a close up. The bricks are 1:48 scale. It's nothing more than an inkjet photo I printed on some artist's pencil sketch paper from Canson (I think) and embossed with a rounded finishing nail. It lacks the brick-to-brick surface variation Dave (Dakra) achieves with his VectorCut products but, of course, you don't have to paint or weather a photo! -- Russ
Newb' here to the forum (been lurking about for a year or two).
Russ, I like your embossed brick. Could you not use a flat burnishing tool to vary the surface of random bricks to change the surface angles. It might reflect the light enough to give it that random surface that we try to achieve for older brick.
I have been experimenting with laser cut brick in N Scale for some time with various results. I am finding that matt board painted in various shades and then cut through the dark matt to show the light matt underneath for mortar works well (at least in small scale stuff).
I also tried the embossing idea over a form as discussed from inkjet and laser printed sheets, but found that the indexing does not match the moisture changes from the inkjet printed items (the sheets stretched a slight amount by the time you get to the bottom of a sheet. On the laserjet, I got calibration issues, though slight, which casued errors in the grout line match up. This probably largely depends on the printer quality... and my limited skills.
Darryl
Quote from: CN6401 on December 20, 2011, 01:34:49 PM
Dave,
90% of the work on his brick walls is done in Photoshop,(the shadows the shading and enhancing the colour), the weathering streaks and rust are brushed on.
Ralph
Well, I just finished watching Troel's excellent DVD for the second time and he actually shows how he does his brickwork. It is as I said, he actually paints individual bricks different shades and dry brushes acrylic colors over the wall. He then adds shadows with his brush and then the rust and weathering. It is a nice looking job from 2 feet but there is no embossing, only the build up of some painted bricks.
I do know he does some preliminary color adjustments on the computer but most of his technique is with a brush.