Question for the group. For years I have used variations of the india ink/alcohol mixture, as well as Silverwood and other commercial stains to represent unpainted wood. The effects are as desired when treated, but I notice that after a while under flourescent lights the wood gets lighter and lighter, until it looks untreated. Anybody else noticed this, and come up with a solution to the problem, or should I be using another technique. TIA
-Younger
Flourescent lights put out more UV than incandescents, UV light tends to be harsher on dyes. I believe you can purchase a UV filter, which might help. Personally I prefer incandescents, they more resemble sunlight, and can be dimmed nicely.
I have noted the same thing as Younger, but my model room is lit by incandescents, and still stains and washes fade out over time. No solutions from me either, sorry.
I think the solution is to keep building new models!
May be this is why so many railroads get torn down after being finished?
Sorry I am of no help either.
-Marty
Jerry,
Maybe try using acrylic washes like Doug Ramos does....or "working wet" with acrylics like Per Olav Lund does.
I have for the most part moved away from the silverwood (and was never a fan of the IA)....as I feel the acrylics give you a far better range of color and and hue, and the finish is more opaque...thus resulting in a more realistic appearance Iespecially once you get into the 1/32 stuff you're doing). I belive the acrylics will give you more lasting color permanance......plus its more fun stuff to buy. ;D
Why not see if Doug will do a small cliinic/demo at the next meet.
M
Marc beat me to that suggestion. It seems to be about the only alternative. -- Russ
Thanks, guys, I'll see if I can get some info from Doug.
-Younger
Unless I'm mistaken, Doug's info, step-by-step, is in the current Narrow Gauge Annual. -- Russ
Quote from: finescalerr on November 06, 2011, 01:33:31 PM
Unless I'm mistaken, Doug's info, step-by-step, is in the current Narrow Gauge Annual. -- Russ
Well , if you don't know for sure , who can we ask to get confirmation that it is ?
Nick, go stand in the corner. -- ssuR
I have flourescent lights in my workshop where I have a large 1:20.3 diorama I have been building for a few years. I used Silverwood in a couple of places and noticed after one year the wood almost bleached out. I re-coated with Silverwood again and by year two, almost the same result. I never thought about the cause being attributed to the lighting. Inever really liked the results of Silverwood or black ink/alcohol dyes mostly because there is no color variation. I'm glad i did all of my other wood treatments with acrylic paints. This winter I plan to work with oil based washes and see if i get better results.
David
I only made the observation, that these special energy saving fluorescent illuminants/bulbs let stained parts of a modell appear in quite a different (greenish) colour compared to daylight, while taking photos of it ...
BTW: I'm not trying to be more Catholic than the Pope or a nitpicker, but I'm curious if "flourescent" is the american spelling of "fluorescent" ... or in this case simply a misspelling ... ???
It is a misspelling.
Fluorescent bulbs come in different color temperatures. By choosing, for example, 9300K bulbs you should see no "green" tint.
Russ
Isn't true color (or as close to natural light) somewhere around 5000-5300K?
Gerald,
When shooting photos in flouresc. you can get rid of any discoloration/tint, by manually pre-setting your "white balance" on the camera.
I think that as more people switch to fluorescents, by choice or by mandate, they're going to discover a lot of things in their homes becoming faded or damaged by UV.
Sorry for the misspelling of "fluorescent". My Windows 7 Spall Check misses things form time to time.
David
Quote from: davidkilby on November 08, 2011, 06:12:50 AM
Sorry for the misspelling of "fluorescent".
Never mind, David - was just curious in case there would have been spelling differences ...
Quote from: marc_reusser on November 07, 2011, 01:34:13 PM
Isn't true color (or as close to natural light) somewhere around 5000-5300K?
... [nitpickingion]approx. 5500k (daylight forenoon/afternoon)[/nitpickingoff] ... ;)
Quote from: marc_reusser on November 07, 2011, 01:34:13 PM
When shooting photos in flouresc. you can get rid of any discoloration/tint, by manually pre-setting your "white balance" on the camera.
THX, I tried to avoid taking photos with fluorescent lights ... but had already a look in that bl**dy manual (which seems to be pretty incomplete) ...
I think fluorescents come in three basic color temperatures, around 5000 K, around 6500 K, and around 9300 K. I may have been mistaken about 9300 being "daylight"; instead 6500 may be a more typical color temperature for daylight. If I weren't in a hurry at the moment I'd look it up for you but I have to leave in just a minute and still need to get through the rest of today's posts.
Russ
Russ,
the common compact fluorescent lights/bulbs available over here range between 2300k and 8000k, to match daylight it has to be >5000k, 6500k recommended ... 8)
The tricky bit is to find a suitable bulb with the favoured colour temperature, as over here they are going to establish these special energy saving fluorescent bulbs in many different shapes, so in some cases the whole range of colour temperatures is simply not available, i. e. regarding circular shaped fluorescent bulbs ... >:( ... and if you finally got lucky and find a matching one, they charge you up to EUR 50,00 for a single bulb ... :o
I had a recent discussion with one of my lighting suppliers about this whole issue (as I wanted to get some bulbs for my workbench from him), and he brought up a couple of interesting points.
Though the 5300 -5500 K ;) range is the "daylight" range, ...apparently much more important is the CRI (color rendering index) ......pretty sure this is the term...having a brain-fart at the moment....regardless, this is the index that rates how accurately the color of the subject is being rendered (100 being the absolute/top end)...unfortunately very few mfrs actually note or list this anywhere on their boxes...they use meaningless generic terms like "warm", "cool", "sunlight", "daylight" "tru-color" etc. .....so you not only want the K-range, but also the CRI.
He also noted that currently (at least with what we tend to get in the US)....the Flourescent bulb market is very poorly regulated, and there are only very "general" standards...so every mfr has a different description of say "daylight"....and to make things worse...there are no definite testing stamdards (in regards to color and light quality) that each bulb has to meet.....so you can get wildly varying hues from two of the same bulbs from the same mfr (I have personally noticed this just recently when I bought two GE from Home Despot....one went blue, and one went magenta....which does not work very well when using them both to light a model for photography)....this is because there are apparently also no exacting standards as to how, and how much gas and such is placed into the bulb, ...which can also often mean that despite saying a bulb will last 3000 (or whatever) hours....it may suddenly burn out on you in less than a week.
M
Quote from: marc_reusser on November 08, 2011, 02:30:55 PM
....it may suddenly burn out on you in less than a week.
... so even bulbs suffer from burn out ... ;D ;D ;D
(sorry, but I could not resist punning on that one)
Gerald, go stand in the corner! -- ssuR
Quote from: finescalerr on November 09, 2011, 12:17:21 AM
Gerald, go stand in the corner! -- ssuR
... will there be some company, comfy chairs and some booze today ... ? ... GD&RVVF ... ;D
Quote from: mad gerald on November 09, 2011, 12:30:36 AM
Quote from: finescalerr on November 09, 2011, 12:17:21 AM
Gerald, go stand in the corner! -- ssuR
... will there be some company, comfy chairs and some booze today ... ? ... GD&RVVF ... ;D
No . I took them with me when I finished my last sentence . Sorry .
Nick
Some really interesting points made here. I was looking recently to improve the lighting over my workbench. What do you guys use and recommend as far as lighting fixtures, bulb colours(daylight, warm cool) etc go?
Hi All,
don't know if this is of any help but here goes... I have tried all manner of lighting options in my studio for painting and finally have a setup that works for me. Lighting becomes a real issue this time of year as I am doing a lot of detail work on my paintings and the winter light levels here require me to use the studio lights all day for the next few months.
My studio is 4.3m x 4.3m (about 14 feet square) and is primarily lit with 4 energy efficient 1500mm (5 foot) T8 58w 'cool white' Triphosphor Fluorescent tubes. I find the colour rendering on these excellent and the stated CRI is 85 (When I did the maths I reached a figure of 89) which is sufficient for me with occasional help from a halogen light. I am paying £30.00 for 10 tubes. As with all 'energy saving' bulbs they take a little while to come up to temperature but enable me to work an 8 hour day in comfort (the first time I haven't suffered from real eye fatigue)
Link to the lights I use is here...
http://www.sylvania.com/BusinessProducts/LightingForBusiness/Products/EnergyEfficientProducts/T8/default.htm (http://www.sylvania.com/BusinessProducts/LightingForBusiness/Products/EnergyEfficientProducts/T8/default.htm)
There are newer lighting technologies out there but for the time being I am sticking to the T8s as I am really happy with them.
BTW if you look at most of my photo's of models they have been taken under these lights with no additional lighting. A few examples here...
http://www.finescalerr.com/smf/index.php?topic=1321.30 (http://www.finescalerr.com/smf/index.php?topic=1321.30)
hope this will add something to the discussion.
James
Quote from: marc_reusser on November 08, 2011, 02:30:55 PM
I had a recent discussion with one of my lighting suppliers about this whole issue (as I wanted to get some bulbs for my workbench from him), and he brought up a couple of interesting points.
Though the 5300 -5500 K ;) range is the "daylight" range, ...apparently much more important is the CRI (color rendering index) ......pretty sure this is the term...having a brain-fart at the moment....regardless, this is the index that rates how accurately the color of the subject is being rendered (100 being the absolute/top end)...unfortunately very few mfrs actually note or list this anywhere on their boxes...they use meaningless generic terms like "warm", "cool", "sunlight", "daylight" "tru-color" etc. .....so you not only want the K-range, but also the CRI.
He also noted that currently (at least with what we tend to get in the US)....the Flourescent bulb market is very poorly regulated, and there are only very "general" standards...so every mfr has a different description of say "daylight"....and to make things worse...there are no definite testing stamdards (in regards to color and light quality) that each bulb has to meet.....so you can get wildly varying hues from two of the same bulbs from the same mfr (I have personally noticed this just recently when I bought two GE from Home Despot....one went blue, and one went magenta....which does not work very well when using them both to light a model for photography)....this is because there are apparently also no exacting standards as to how, and how much gas and such is placed into the bulb, ...which can also often mean that despite saying a bulb will last 3000 (or whatever) hours....it may suddenly burn out on you in less than a week.
M
Interesting you say that Marc, as I've been wondering how to accurately replicate true sunlight with flourescents. Too many layouts I have seen just plop in a generic flourescent they bought at Home Depot, and it throws the whole mood of the scenery off. Everything is too blue or white, causing the balance of the colors to be off the mark.
I tend to model central California logging. As you are a California resident, you know the sun behaves bit differently then a setting in the east or midwest. In that particularly dry region, everything is accentuated by the warmness of the sun...the rotting wood, the yellows of the grass and even the dirt is a much more lighter and drier than any other area you find. This is very difficult to model realistically with commercial lights, and I trying to comprehend how this can be done. I think one of the reasons Chuck's models look so good is because he shoots in real sunlight, and all the details are much emphasized in different texture and matter than they would if it was done with studio lighting. To me it gives a much more realistic feel to the overall scene.
-Brandon
James,
thanks for your additional input ...
Quote from: james_coldicott on November 09, 2011, 05:07:50 AM
Link to the lights I use is here...
http://www.sylvania.com/BusinessProducts/LightingForBusiness/Products/EnergyEfficientProducts/T8/default.htm (http://www.sylvania.com/BusinessProducts/LightingForBusiness/Products/EnergyEfficientProducts/T8/default.htm)
... these things look the part, regarding their specifications (and your photos) ... I started already researching, if this kind of illuminant is available in more kinda bulb form too ...
Marc,
You are completely correct. The CRI (color rendition index) is the deciding factor and the closer to 100, the better, however it must be combined with the higher temperature to get the desired effect. I photograph all of my wife's handmade jewelry for the website and brochures and did considerable research on the subject of lighting for photography.
You're lighting supplier was right on point as most professional photographers will tell you the same.
I have found some good on line bulb stores that list ALL the factors, including CRI. I suggest one might go to these sites and either buy from them or try to find the same product locally. Take a look at this page and you'll see the CRI listed (as they do for most of their bulbs) but again the higher K is also required.
http://www.bulbs.com/Spirals_&_Bent_Tubes/results.aspx (http://www.bulbs.com/Spirals_&_Bent_Tubes/results.aspx)
Regarding fluorescent layout lighting: It's okay if you want the diffuse light typical of a hazy or overcast day. If you want clean shadows and the contrast typical of sunlight, though, you'll need incandescent bulbs (including halogen) unless there's something else out there I'm unaware of. -- Russ
This information was sent to me by Bill Gill:
Chuck, Saw your post on the Westlake forum about concerns over Silverwood fading. I don't know what its made from, but if it includes iron filings like the homemade vinegar and steel wood formulas it probably will fade/change when exposed to light like medieval writing inks made with iron gall.
see:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ink (scroll down to "writing and preservation" to see comparison of carbon inks and iron inks)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_gall_ink this link has a less pessimistic view of iron gall inks.
This is a topic that constantly floats in the back of my mind whenever I'm making a model. (Must have rubbed off from working a while in a museum, even though I wasn't directly connected with preservation of stuff),
I'm always dismayed by model RR articles recommending using a fine tip Sharpie to color the gaskets around windows on a locomotive or to touch up small paint chips. Those markers fade pretty quickly in bright lights and fade overtime in less light.
"Permanent" markers or inks are misleading because most only mean that they are water resistant, and have nothing whatsoever to do with their light fastness or not (mostly they are "or not").
I have experimented with some Pigma Micron markers (from art stores, A.C. Moore and Michaels among other places, though suddenly harder to find). They say right on the barrel that they are archival, waterproof and non fading. They come in several size tips and in a red, blue, green and burnt sienna brown as well as black. So far, so good.
I have some really nice Pelikan Drawing inks in a couple shades of brown that can create some great looks on wood, but alas, they too are pretty fugitive. Even some "India" inks have iron in them and can fade. I have (had?) an older article from some old museum publication that studied the fade resistance of a number of brands of India ink because that was/is what many curators use/used to write I.D. numbers (on top of a small white shellac coated area) on the artifacts. The researchers found some black "India" inks faded and others were corrosive as well.
I think (but am not sure) that Pelikan (Koh-i-noor) India ink and Koh-i-noor Fount India #9150-D (a non waterproof India ink for fountain pens) are strictly carbon black inks and will not fade or corrode materials. There are also one or two Higgins India inks that are just carbon black, but I don't know which specifically.
I also experienced first hand a surprisingly different kind of "fading" on the tiny HO layout my son and I are building. A stone bridge abutment has driftwood piled against the upstream side of one end. The driftwood was carefully selected small twigs that had a beautiful silvery sheen that nothing else I've tried closely duplicates. It looked great for several years, but I suddenly noticed that the wood seemed "new", all the gray had vanished and the wood looked raw like it had just tumbled downstream that day (still acceptable but not what was intended). I knew it couldn't have faded even though that side of the layout did see strong sunlight in the winter. A close examination with a magnifying glass turned up some tiny little critters on the wood. They had eaten the silvery oxidized surface right off the wood! I have no idea what they were. I'd heated the wood in an oven before gluing it to the layout, so they must be in the house. A bit of rubbing alcohol did them in and so far all has remained Ok, thought the beautiful natural silver color has not returned.
Hi Guys
is anyone still using the old Rotring India ink with ammonia formula for ageing / silvering wood. I would suggest that this is still a good formula that stands the test of time under fluro's and other intense lighting.
have fun
Bernard
Quote from: finescalerr on November 10, 2011, 11:38:26 AM
Regarding fluorescent layout lighting: It's okay if you want the diffuse light typical of a hazy or overcast day. If you want clean shadows and the contrast typical of sunlight, though, you'll need incandescent bulbs (including halogen) unless there's something else out there I'm unaware of. -- Russ
You can probably get nice sharp crisp shadows with the Flour...but to mimmick the hardness of the halogen, you will likely need the type used by photographers with the 4 bulbs in a reflector.
....or maybe the 110/120v 1200w 5500K 93-95CRI bulb that I saw the other day. I think it was around $190.- per bulb...whatever it was, I nearly fell over.
M
You don't have to spend that much money. A $25 halogen shop light can do the job for photography. If money were a problem, modified shop lights on a layout would do just fine.
Marc, please don't terrify the readers. They are gentle folk and mean no harm.
Russ
Russ -
Do you have an online source for that $25 halogen shop light,
for great photography? Wanna share?
Carlo
A few years ago I found a dual lamp halogen shop light at Home Depot and remember it was very inexpensive. I guess the price went up a couple of bucks because I just looked it up:
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-202066789/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053 (http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-202066789/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053)
This light is not ideal for photography but is adequate if you're on a budget. I shot several photos with it when I was too lazy to whip out the Arri Fresnel lamps. Many variations are available with both single and double lamps at reasonable prices. I mentioned that alternative to get youse guys thinkin'.
Russ
Lights, camera, Action!
O.K C.B, I am ready for my close up ::)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOLypkY8LMc
MPH
Loving those bright lights!
Lately I have been experimenting with creating acrylic stains. The formula is very simple. Dilute the acrylic color of choice with an equal portion of water followed by the addition of alcohol at 20% of volume. My students have used this on a wide range of wooden projects with excellent results.
Searoom
Guys, I think this might help resolve Daylight Light temperature issue.
The best way to purchase fluorescent lights for your layouts, workshops etc, is to buy them from an electrical supply company or lighting supplier, not Home depot or Lowes etc.
The best working temperature range is from 4600 to 6000K (kelvin) any brighter you will get headaches and/or sunburn, seriously.
Here is a chart to give you an idea of the temperature equivalents are. The normal tubes are 3000K-warm white and 4000K-cool white
http://www.mediacollege.com/lighting/colour/colour-temperature.html
Plus if you buy these high range tube be sure to ask for the clear plastic UV sleeves to put on the tubes to stop/slow the bleaching effect.