Would this roof leak? I say yes because of the lack of half bonding. What's your opinion?
thanks, Philip
They seem to be very poorly laid and would probably let water through.
Wheather the roof would actually leak or not would depend heavily on the type and quality of the underlayment.
I suspect this picture is of a model so the water damage would be minimal.
Rick
Rick, I'd say 1x purlins for that era, spaced wide enough to nail them down. Not my work but I agree with you. 2 or3 in a row with verticals lining up is a recipe for leakage.
more buckets please........
thanks!
The areas with lined up gaps would definitely be an issue. I can't tell from the photo whether the cap/ridge planks are properly lapped in relation to each other (it was common to see one plank lapped a bit past the face of the other at the ridge joint/seam...I would guess 1/2" or so. I have even in some instances seen this taken to the extreme with a lap of up to 2+ inches. I would guess the reason for this was likely to slightly shelter the seam, so that when the lapping board shrank, or seperated, it would still somewhat shelter the gap/seam.)
Marc
the answer is No it wont leak!
Why you ask? becasue it doesent rain in your layout!
MPH
Ask a simple question? get a simple answer : - )-)
Yes , it would leak and it also looks crap .Everything about it is wrong and who ever built it wants to scrap it and do it again properly . Sorry if I've offended anyone here but to me the whole roof looks dreadful .
Nick
Hmmm, Phillip, I think I know where that roof comes from too....
Nick, best stay on this side of the forums. That type of decent honesty may not be as well received where this model is taking shape. If it makes you feel any better, some of the other elements of the model aren't too bad (he has been listeneing to helpful advice, and the modelling has improved, which is the main thing), but I think you were fairly correct with your in depth analysis of this particular roof :D
With the current state of that roofing job though, it would lend the mill engine uder it to a few more rust streaks and water damage I would be thinking... ??? ;D
Cheers,
Dan
PS; Phillip, can we leave it in your hands to report back to the other guys with the good news... ::)
I agree with Nick. -- Russ
I recently built a structure from a laser kit company and the shingles seemed to be manufactured in such a way that they always bonded incorrectly when rolled out of the strip. The vertical space would always line up every 3 or 4 shingles. It was maddening and made the entire roof job a dreadful task. I ended up scabbing/cutting the shingles in order to correct the bond issues.
Has anyone ever used real shingles scratch cut from a builders shim pack? I bet that making your own would eliminate all the issues discussed with these pre-manufactured laser shingles.
Philip
Quote from: Philip Smith on April 07, 2011, 04:50:28 AM
Has anyone ever used real shingles scratch cut from a builders shim pack? I bet that making your own would eliminate all the issues discussed with these pre-manufactured laser shingles.
Philip
Well, I've used those to level a workbench ... but that wasn't really the question, eh? ;D
The very, very tip of the thinnest shims might be useful ... but seems like it would be easier to get a chunk of cedar (or whatever) and a good, old-fashioned hand plane ... experiment with getting the right depth for the desired thickness and have at it. I haven't actually tried this for roofing, but it hasn't been too long since I took down an interior door and planed the bottom to clear a new carpet ... the shavings looked "interesting" from a modeling perspective. Cheap to make too! Oh ... added benefit ... if you can use all the wood shavings for modeling, you don't have to vacuum after your carpentry ... just sweep 'em up and put them in a shoebox. ;)
Oh, and I've seen discussion not too long ago of using some disposable cedar wraps that are used for grilling food. Haven't seen them in person, so dunno about the actual thickness of those ... wood plane allows control there.
Cheers,
Dallas
Also, is it me or is the grain running across the shingles? A shame because it is neat work but lacking knowledge of how the prototype works.
J
Quote from: Malachi Constant on April 07, 2011, 05:14:46 AM
Quote from: Philip Smith on April 07, 2011, 04:50:28 AM
Has anyone ever used real shingles scratch cut from a builders shim pack? I bet that making your own would eliminate all the issues discussed with these pre-manufactured laser shingles.
Philip
Well, I've used those to level a workbench ... but that wasn't really the question, eh? ;D
The very, very tip of the thinnest shims might be useful ... but seems like it would be easier to get a chunk of cedar (or whatever) and a good, old-fashioned hand plane ... experiment with getting the right depth for the desired thickness and have at it. I haven't actually tried this for roofing, but it hasn't been too long since I took down an interior door and planed the bottom to clear a new carpet ... the shavings looked "interesting" from a modeling perspective. Cheap to make too! Oh ... added benefit ... if you can use all the wood shavings for modeling, you don't have to vacuum after your carpentry ... just sweep 'em up and put them in a shoebox. ;)
Oh, and I've seen discussion not too long ago of using some disposable cedar wraps that are used for grilling food. Haven't seen them in person, so dunno about the actual thickness of those ... wood plane allows control there.
Cheers,
Dallas
Yes Dallas... the tip of the shim ;D You always make me smile.
I'm sure with a belt sander a pile could be made in short order. May just head to sinking creek lumber and conduct an experiment. Basically sand something to nothing. cut repeat....... typical on a scaled down version.
Philip 8)
That's a good way to make a helluva lot of sawdust, man! Get a plane ... sharpen the blade ... slice it thin like crappy cold cuts ... no big mess to clean up. -- Dallas
PS -- With the belt sander, once you've gone too far you've just converted a shim into a pile of sawdust. With the plane, if you don't like the thickness you just reset the blade and make another pass. Single piece of decent wood will give you a lifetime supply. But, hey, if you wanna snort sawdust ... have fun with it! ;D :P 8)
Must use a belt sander to taper effectively...
exhibit 101
this is why those laser cut shingles suck.....they are the same thickness :o
Philip
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.silvatimber.co.uk%2Fmedia%2Fcatalog%2Fproduct%2Fcache%2F1%2Fthumbnail%2F9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95%2Fe%2Fa%2Feastern-white-cedar-shingles-rustic-profile.jpg&hash=9f9fcffbe53aa93f4a66e2afb11af1e321cef60a)
I wonder how crazy this would be? On a miniature level. It looks like RTV to me ???
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bruincorp.com%2Fimages%2Fthumbs%2FcedarImpressions02.jpg&hash=1177f6cab2c67f232315ee56fa8d9ef6130b33d1)
here is a pretty good illustration.....note the taper, thin to top, start strip doubled, and alternate courses not aligning.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.watkinsawmills.com%2Fimg%2Fshingleapplication.gif&hash=e15c69c0498a9a27a8531db2a99be4e33a179a25)
i love the idea on using the plane shavings.
what about curl?
definitely going to try them on my next roof.
-marty
Phillip
I love that diagram, if you have ever seen a real shake roof, you would see above the eave line where the tar paper stops, you can see through the roof , it looks like Swiss cheese. My parents replaced there shake roof and when I climbed in there attic I was surprised to see all the light coming through. Water has no prejudice; it will find the lowest spot, automatically! So shake roofs by nature are designed to drain, to the lowest point. When you see all those holes you say to yourself how could it not leak? But it doesn't!
So I say again the shake roof in question looks like hell but it won't leak!
MPH
It's not uncommon to see light through a shake roof. They don't leak because the shingles swell when they get wet. Seeing light through the first course at the eaves is when the person roofing didn't use a starter course under his first row of shingles. Marc's observations for the ridge planks is correct. However my preference is to comb the ridge with shakes and not use boards.
With regard to modeling shake roofs. Anyone with a penchant for good cigars will notice some terrific thin wood that comes inside the cigar box just perfect for shakes in smaller scales. Smoke 'em if you got 'em boys.
I think the more typical approach at the eaves was to gang the nailing boards to create a solid sheathing area there, rather than do shingles on spaced nailer boards....but I guess that depends on the era and type of structure you are doing.
Marc
I've saved a bunch of Shorpy photos to my rooftops file, like this gem.
http://www.shorpy.com/files/images/4a09190a.jpg
ummm...no "gem" to be seen.
M
Take a look at the roofing of the building in the very lower right of this photo
http://www.shorpy.com/node/10266
Dang. Shorpy's addictive ..
gotta wonder if the roof leaked after this crowd
http://www.shorpy.com/node/10265
Hhmmmm,
Reading back through this thread this evening I am slightly confused, nothing new there, It almost sounds like some of you are talking like a shake and a shingle are one and the same. Except for being made of wood they are completely different and installed in a different manner.
Well actually it wasn't always that way. Back in the day, lets say before 1800 all shingles were made from shake blanks and were hand tapered and smoothed with a draw knife to lay flat and installed over various kinds of under framing.
Starting in the early 1800's Shingle sawing machines started to be developed and improved.
The upshot of this is that a SHINGLE is sawn on all surfaces and all shingles are of a uniform size. They come in different lengths to be used for different pitched roofs, and different exposures to the weather.
A shake is a rough fully split piece of uniform length but of random width and thickness, although a more modern method of producing shakes uses a biased sawn blank so you end up with a shake that is rough on the weather side but smooth on the the down side.
Todays codes require that, wood SHINGLES should be installed with the thicker lower ends raised on wood strips (both over a solid layer of roofing felt on the roof sheathing) so that the shingles can dry out.
Wood SHAKES are rough split with very uneven surfaces, and can be installed with overlapping layers of felt between the layers of shakes (wood strips are not as necessary, but can be used, also).
This doesn't even get us into "board" roofs. Of course all of this is academic for me since the new installation of wood shakes or shingles has been illegal in this area since the 1970's because of wild fire hazard.
But I have worked on quite a few of both types throught the years.
Rick
Quote from: NORCALLOGGER on April 07, 2011, 05:49:37 PM
Hhmmmm,
But I have worked on quite a few of both types throught the years.
Rick
Thanks for the lesson Rick. Was poking around Youtube late last night looking at the different types, both hand and machine made.
Dallas, I'd like to see the method of shaving these. I'm not grasping how it's done or the end resulting profile. A mini SBS would be nice.
Chester, please elaborate on this combing method. I remember Norm Abrams ala (this old house) capping a gazebo. Was it combed?
I have seen many roofs with light coming through, some with leaks others not. The ones with sky showing leaked.
Philip
Philip, this recently finished little garden shed has a combed ridge cap. Each shingle on the ridge is alternately over lapped with the shingle on the other side of the roof. This method is often done on sidewall shingles to outside corners of a house also so as to eliminate the need for corner boards. It should be noted that any respectable builder here in New England will use red cedar for a roof and white cedar is reserved only for side wall shingling.
Really Nice Chester!
thanks!
Quote from: Philip Smith on April 08, 2011, 06:20:17 AM
Dallas, I'd like to see the method of shaving these. I'm not grasping how it's done or the end resulting profile. A mini SBS would be nice.
Philip
Sure it would. After you try it, make sure to post your photos and notes! ;D
In response to the original notes about folks being dissatisfied with laser-cut shingles, I mentioned that using a plane to shave thin wood pieces MIGHT be a useful idea ... AND that I hadn't actually tried it. Now, if I do get around to trying it before you do, then I'll post the photos and notes ...
Meanwhile, still suspect that there are a variety of solutions, including material scavenged from cigar boxes, ultra thin veneers, wood shavings and so forth. So, get going roofers and let us know what works. 8) :P
PS -- This might be a convenient way to get the thin cedar sheet:
http://www.sierrascalemodels.com/cedar.htm
Chester, is it common for a decent roof guy to lay such perfectly aligned courses (virtually no stagger in the parallel lines)? I saw similar work in a black-and-white photo in TimberTimes and thought that it might have been the work of a particularly meticulous roofer.
Also, when the shingles age, will the contrast between the light and dark wood remain at about the same level or will everything kind of blend into a monotone?
Russ
Russ,
When I spec shake or shingle work I generally have to specify the look I want, straight/aligned or staggered...and if I choose staggered, then i have to specify to the roofer the amount(s)/range....after which he makes up a 10x10 sample area for review and approval.
Marc
Quote from: Malachi Constant on April 08, 2011, 06:28:00 PM
Quote from: Philip Smith on April 08, 2011, 06:20:17 AM
Dallas, I'd like to see the method of shaving these. I'm not grasping how it's done or the end resulting profile. A mini SBS would be nice.
Philip
Sure it would. After you try it, make sure to post your photos and notes! ;D
:P
I intend to... and hope others participate!! after reviewing Chesters advise about roofs & walls.
Marc: Sounds like your speaking from experience! tear it off! :-\
blend into a monotone??? Good question Russ.
Philip
Note: I retitled this thread for easier future search reference
Quote from: marc_reusser on April 09, 2011, 01:32:54 AM
Russ,
When I spec shake or shingle work I generally have to specify the look I want, straight/aligned or staggered...and if I choose staggered, then i have to specify to the roofer the amount(s)/range....after which he makes up a 10x10 sample area for review and approval.
Marc
Marc ,
Is that a 10 foot x 10 foot sample you are talking about ? Sounds like a big area as a sample board . What do you do with it afterwards , as it can't be used ? Or do you take it home and build a shed underneath it ?
Nick
Strange the Shopy link comes and goes. Worked yesterday but not today. Anyway, the photo I thought was interesting is of Eureka Colorado.
http://www.shorpy.com/node/7409
Or you can go to shorpy and search "Eureka 1900". I save the photos to files according to subject matter headings that interests me, like roofing for this one. Makes it easier to find them later.
Dave
I actually saved that image in hi-res to my HDD as a reference a year ago and have studied it two or three times. From the camera angle I have been unable to determine the shingles' exact alignment (even or slightly staggered). Warped shingles and other aspects of the photo make it difficult to interpret what I see. But I love that photo. -- Russ
Russ, being a cabinetmaker, my carpentry skills tend to be a little retentive so my courses are generally straight as a dye. And yes, in less than a year those shingles will all be quite monotone.
Nick,
Most often we have the sample done directly on the roof, that way one can view and experience it as it will look in it's final appearance/installation. The look and appearance has generally been pretty well hashed out by the time the sample goes up, rarely do we have to tear the whole thing back out. [not so the case with slate roof or clay barrel tile installations....there we start with a 4x8 sample mockup on plywood, this then gets adjusted and manipulated by me, the roofer then takes this sample and does a partial roof section for review and approval....if ok he continues roofing...but more often than not this large sample area needs to be adjusted till I am satisfied (as the roofer, or his crew, did not grasp the appearance of the sample....or they thought I would be too stupid to notice that they did not follow it.)
Marc
I'm not really sure what the debate is about here. I assume its about whether or not vertical gaps (butts? -- not sure the technical term) line up on adjacent courses of shingles.
Obviously a roofer will try to avoid this. But wood shakes are random widths (I suppose because they are split from logs of random widths). I know from laying virtual shake shingles in computer graphics, that avoiding vertical gaps lining up is not easy at all. Unless there is some roofers method I don't know (I know next to nothing about actual roofing) I don't think its humanly possible without going back to previously laid shingles and rearranging them.
I could be wrong, but I think the Shorpy photos tend to confirm this. In the Eureka photo and others, I do see occasional vertical gaps lining up.
Dave
Quote from: DaKra on April 09, 2011, 03:54:19 PM
I'm not really sure what the debate is about here. I assume its about whether or not vertical gaps (butts? -- not sure the technical term) line up on adjacent courses of shingles.
Obviously a roofer will try to avoid this. But wood shakes are random widths (I suppose because they are split from logs of random widths). I know from laying virtual shake shingles in computer graphics, that avoiding vertical gaps lining up is not easy at all. Unless there is some roofers method I don't know (I know next to nothing about actual roofing) I don't think its humanly possible without going back to previously laid shingles and rearranging them.
I could be wrong, but I think the Shorpy photos tend to confirm this. In the Eureka photo and others, I do see occasional vertical gaps lining up.
Dave
It is perfectly possible and ,in fact ,an overriding requirement that there are no straight joints in either a shingle or shake roof and any roofer that fails to achieve this ought to change professions . There is no excuse for not having a proper bond for the very simple reason the shingles/shakes are made out of wood and wood can be cut or split to suit whatever size is required . This is made all the more easy by the very fact that the shingles do come in different widths and the roofer just finds a suitable shingle out of his pile . In fact, he ought to have various stacks of different widths so that he doesn't need to waste time sorting through them .
A good roofer will be looking ahead of where he is working making sure that he doesn't make life awkward for himself further along down the line .
Laying a shingle roof is a piece of cake compared to laying one with old handmade plain clay tiles , where you can easily pick up and put down twenty tiles before finding one that fits . To get one of those roofs to look good takes quite alot of time , skill and patience . Anyone care to see a picture of the roof on my house ? Shout me down if I am taking this "off topic" .
Nick
Nick,
I didn't realize you had put the roof on the house??? ;D Hell yes we want to see it!!!
Jerry
I profess no working knowledge of 1/1 roofing, so I go by what I see in the photos. For example, a detail from the above referenced photo from Eureka. I circled some lined up butts in green, there are more in the photo if you look for them. No doubt there were more meticulous roofers, but from what I've seen, this isn't unusual.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi655.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu276%2FDaveKrakow%2FEurekaCObutts.jpg%3Ft%3D1302400236&hash=db536bbd5dd966d75a396b9590d8af258294713c)
no objections Nick. post the photos!
very educational so far.....
Philip
As far as I recall/understand, the general approach/spec for wood shingles and shakes installed over 1x4 or 1x6 spaced boards is:
SHINGLES:
Board spacing is equal to the shingle exposure (which depends in shingle length, roof slope and installation)
Shingles should be lapped/offset 1-1/2" min. with gap in course below.
Joints in alteranate courses should also not align.
Shingles should project beyond the rake to act as a drip edge
Shingles should project over eave 1" to act as drip
First course ("Starter Course") of shingles at eave are doubled up/stacked (with offset gaps)
Shingles should be spaced 1/4"-3/8" to allow for expansion.
SHAKES:
Board spacing is equal to the shake exposure (which depends in shingle length, roof slope and installation)
As has been pointed out, good practice is to lay and lap asphalt roofing felt between courses.
Shakes should be lapped/offset 1-1/2" min. with gap in course below.
Because of the felt, it is not such an issue re. joints in alteranate courses aligning...if there is no felt then ther should be no alignment between alternate courses.
Shakes should project beyond the rake to act as a drip edge
Shakes should project over eave 1" to act as drip
First course ("Starter Course") of shingles at eave are doubled up/stacked (with offset gaps)
Shakes should be spaced 3/8"-1/2" to allow for expansion.
Shingles are generally 16, 18, or 24" in length. Shakes are generally 18" or 24" in length.
Marc
That's a very good treatise on shingle laying Marc. It's the one I try to follow but sometimes I'll cheat the 1 1/2" overlap down to 1" but NEVER in line for two consecutive courses. If the shingles are wet they can be touching as they will gap themselves when dried out.
Now to copy your post so it can be re-posted the next time someone asks.
Quote from: mabloodhound on April 10, 2011, 07:34:25 AM
That's a very good treatise on shingle laying Marc. It's the one I try to follow but sometimes I'll cheat the 1 1/2" overlap down to 1" but NEVER in line for two consecutive courses. If the shingles are wet they can be touching as they will gap themselves when dried out.
Now to copy your post so it can be re-posted the next time someone asks.
What he said. I should copy Marc's post and give it to new guys on the job.
One thing I'd like to note about construction techniques of all kinds. That is that for every craftsman on the job, there is that many different ways of building things and some that just don't know or care. And consequently there a lot of folks doing it wrong in real life, so to imitate even the incorrect method in our models can't be considered wrong because it does exist in our real structures.
Dave, it's really not that hard, just takes a little practice and forethought to lay a roof without vertical seams lining up. I'm just glad I can stand on the ground and supervise these days.
Quote from: chester on April 10, 2011, 08:25:56 AM
Quote from: mabloodhound on April 10, 2011, 07:34:25 AM
That's a very good treatise on shingle laying Marc. It's the one I try to follow but sometimes I'll cheat the 1 1/2" overlap down to 1" but NEVER in line for two consecutive courses. If the shingles are wet they can be touching as they will gap themselves when dried out.
Now to copy your post so it can be re-posted the next time someone asks.
What he said. I should copy Marc's post and give it to new guys on the job.
One thing I'd like to note about construction techniques of all kinds. That is that for every craftsman on the job, there is that many different ways of building things and some that just don't know or care. And consequently there a lot of folks doing it wrong in real life, so to imitate even the incorrect method in our models can't be considered wrong because it does exist in our real structures.
You are absolutely right , if someone wants to model a roof with straight joints because there are plenty of examples in real life ,then that is their right . If they do this knowing they are reproducing real life poor quality work that is fine , but the overwhelming majority of model roofs that are built with straight joint are done in ignorance because the modeller doesn't know any better. So unless it is clearly stated somewhere by the modeller that he is deliberately reproducing real life poor quality work he is likely to be lumped with all the other modellers who build these sorts of roofs in ignorance .
At the end of the day , whether built intentionally or in ignorance, a roof with straight joints will look crap ,
Nick
Here are a few pictures of the present state of the roof on my house .
The secondhand hand made clay plain tiles ( bit of a mouthful) are all individually bedded on with a dollop of lime mortar ( no cement used) after having been carefully selected from a big pile .
You will notice that none of the tiles are flat so it is a bit of a challenge to get them to lay nicely so that they (a) don't rock and (b) make the roof flow and undulate properly .
However , when done properly they do make the best looking roofs .
Nick
A couple more
Your house is going to be a real work of art when it's finished!
The roof tiles don't line up perfectly horizontally and the roof needs more weathering. I also question whether you've adequately captured the "feel" of a prototype roof. Moreover, in this case, I'm unsure whether the scaffolding really adds realism to the structure. -- ssuR
Nick
That is one hell of a nice looking roof.
Jerry
I'm with Russ on this, need more roof weathering. And who did your casting for that chimney? The twist looks a little crooked. ;D
Jimmy Page Castle!
Philip 8)
Photo has been doctored some to make it a full sheet print out, but its interesting with the moss and rot.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.btcomm.com%2Ftrains%2Fresource%2Fbrick_n_stone%2Frough_shakes.jpg&hash=5d1e866fe65dd06ceb625a3f82d363470d226a3f)
Large format here
http://www.btcomm.com/trains/resource/brick_n_stone/rough_shakes.jpg