Hello;
I am searching for information regarding central European forest industry in the hope to realistically model a Logging railroad or Walbahn
I have been following Jacq's Sawmill model development for over a year. It has been very informative. A number of forum members have helped Europe based Jacq Damen to understand the forestry industry in western North America in order to develop a fantastic and realistic model. This is a fantastic community.
I do not have the modeling skills of Jacq, but I am attempting to reverse the knowledge transfer. I am located in North America and would like to model central European logging railroad, loading site and small sawmill(s) at around 1900 to 1930s. I am modeling in 1:87 scale. I have noticed via the internet that the European modeling community misrepresents the logging industry about the same as the North America modeling community does to the American logging.
Sawmill: It appears the Europeans utilize the Gang Saw (up-down or gatter saw) versus the band saw. I have a found number of pictures of these gang saws, both with the historic one blade waterwheel drive up-down saw and the later multi-blade versions. However, in 1910 would it have been possible to power 4 gang saws (for small timber) with a water wheel?
During this search, I have also not discovered any documentation of the mechanism used for moving the timber and lumber within the mill. In more modern times this operation is mechanized. Prior to the mechanism – some rather graining photos show tall rail cars being used, but little definition is available as to how the log initially loaded onto the saw and how it might be rotated after a gang saw cuts a number of boards at one time.
Railroad: Europeans did not typically use standard gauge rail in the forest. The distances were short and flexibility was warranted. Rail was typically 600mm or 750 industrial Feldbahn. These would terminate at a mainline station and venture off into the forest. Some of the forest rails were temporary and would be moved when the timber was removed. Die Neuhauser "Bockerlbahn" was only active for 2 years however the Spiegelau forest railroad was active from 1908 until 1958.
Not all timber was destined for the lumber mill. Some timber was destined to be under ground Mine posts for the coal mines. Timber was preferred due to the "snap" made when the post neared failure as an alert to failure. Carloads of short round timber is a common scene at transfer yards in central Europe in the early part of the century.
Timber Loading: Mechanized timber loading onto the narrow gauge and standard gauge was limited. Most of this was manual. It appears that labor was readily available in the European forest. Smaller diameter logs were loaded by rolling logs up skid log ramps. Using small wooden wedges to prevent roll back and "Sapie" (cant hooks) to pull the logs up the ramp to load the logs onto the rail cars. The Short mine timbers were loaded by hand by hardy workers.
Larger log loading was accomplished by chain hauling. A tripod post was arranged with a pulley and a chain was passed around the log. This 2:1 ratio would pass back to the tripod and then to a winch. I do not know what these are called, but they appear in the 1930's. Prior to this men or horses pulled from the far side of the rail car.
As you can tell I have done some research: However, most of this is based on limited readings. I would appreciate any references which can enhance this knowledge.
References:
Up-Down Sawmill
Taylor Mill
http://chapterhouse2.nhvt.net/users/momaw/taylormill/taylormill.htm#intro
Sturbridge Mill
Gang Saw
http://www.buntbahn.de/modellbau/viewtopic.php?p=272519#272519 Model
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAihZ2c9JWw&feature=search
Newhaus Bockerlbahn
http://www.fischhausen-neuhaus.de/bockerl/langfassung/l_bf_neuhaus.htm
Paul
Paul (2)
do you read german or french ? I'll have a look in my archive what I can find.
Jacq
Paul,
I have numerous catalogs pertaining to equipment mfg. by O&K, Henschel, etc. specifically for logging rr's in Europe and by European operators in their colonies. Not much on the sawmill and production end....but a good amount on the rail end. let me know if you are interested and I can scan and post some of it.
Somewhere I also have some pics of sawmill yards in France and Germany sometime around 1900-1918.....will see if I can find them.
Marc
Jacq; I can work through German publications with the help of dict.leo.org which is very good at translating technical terms correctly. It helps if the books have illustrations or math equations to accompany the words.
At this time I am interested in as much material as I can digest.
BTW: A link to a model of a O guage Holzverladeeinrichtung (Timber Loading Device ?)
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armin-berberich.de%2FBilder%2520Ausstellung%2F100_1512.jpg&hash=c519b81a3e196dd5116f5505fbd3c1ba54b22493)
I have seen similar devices in photos of Wegscheid Station. Those items appear to be more portable and clamp to the rail car or rail.
Paul
I happened to have this (and the following stuff) on my laptop for an article I was writing...as you can tell by the elephants, it's India, and not Central Europe, but the equipment is all O&K, including the crane being used to load the logs.
M
Here are some reduced scans I had floating around on the LT. I believe they are all O&K. (sorry about the quality, but they wer only for reference while writing/researching).
M
Bottom two cars were specifically built for the Royal Serbian Railway Co.
Bottom car is for transporting small quantities of cordwood or pulp wood.
The top two cars are for Cordwood or pulpwood, the bottom two are for the transport of cut boards.
Paul
Here are a few links to French pages featuring surviving sawmills of the Vosges, in the north east of France.
I don't know if you read French. Based upon what is written, there still were 'haut-fer' (the French name for the oscillating sawing mechanism) in 1910 (and in fact much later).
A sawmill still running the 'old' technology on this page : http://www.mylorraine.fr/la-scierie-du-lancoir-dernier-haut-fer,article1905.html (with a video and a diaporama featuring a number of pictures).
Another sawmill in the Vosges : http://hautfer.pagesperso-orange.fr/haut-fer.html
with a plan of the mechanism : http://hautfer.pagesperso-orange.fr/images/mecanisme.jpg
An still another one : http://www.les-mille-etangs.com/pme25.htm
Another one in a slightly southern part of France : http://henriphoto.over-blog.fr/article-scierie-de-haut-fer-dans-le-nord-de-la-haute-saone-37304792.html
A historical article on the haut-fer with a few pics : http://membres.multimania.fr/hautfer/histoire-HF.html
A youtube page showing the work of the sawmill and steam mechanism : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFCfbHT40eI
Links to pictures :
http://www.fdmf.fr/images/articles/481_art_ov_1208883271.jpg
http://www.fdmf.fr/images/articles/1006_art_ov_1253993469.jpg
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Haut-fer_Malfosse.jpg
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Zell_alte_Saegemuehle_25052007_01.jpg (in Austria)
The building and waterwheel : http://www.fdmf.fr/images/articles/1007_art_ov_1253993959.JPG
Paul,
here some links to sawmill area's and means of transport.
http://www.muehlenverein-rodachtal.de/18529.html?*session*id*key*=*session*id*val* (http://www.muehlenverein-rodachtal.de/18529.html?*session*id*key*=*session*id*val*)
http://www.wwa-kc.bayern.de/projekte_und_programme/doc/floesserei_frankenwald.pdf (http://www.wwa-kc.bayern.de/projekte_und_programme/doc/floesserei_frankenwald.pdf)
most logging was in the forrest of the old Austria/Hungarian empire in present countries like southern Poland, Tchechie, Slovakia, Hungaria,
Roumenia and Austria, Jugoslavia, etc. In the Harz a narrowgauge line still operates, but if they transported a lot of timber I don't know.
below a link to a line stil operating, which I hope to visit summer next year.
http://www.wassertalbahn.ch/frame.html (http://www.wassertalbahn.ch/frame.html)
http://www.eichenberger-waldbahn.de/uebersicht.htm (http://www.eichenberger-waldbahn.de/uebersicht.htm)
Here a link to a H0 ( and other scales ) for feldbahn cars and loco's.
http://www.carocar.com/html/fb-fahrzeuge_teil_1.html (http://www.carocar.com/html/fb-fahrzeuge_teil_1.html)
there is/was a beautiful white metal/brass H0 model of a 5 gang "gaettersaege" I used it in my H0 sawmill.
goolge for "gattersaege" this gives lot of samples with further links. similar for "Saegemuehle" or "Scierie"
Jacq
Thanks all: It will take me some time to digest this information. Keep the information coming!
I read that at Spiegelau the the original (oval) trucks were fragile and did not last many years. Spiegelau later converted to the rectangular trucks as shown for the Royal Serbian Railway.
Jacq: The only white metal model of a Gatter Saw I can find is the Mo-Miniature (http://shop.strato.de/epages/15222754.sf/de_CH/?ObjectPath=/Shops/15222754/Products/20100) Sägegatter which appears a bit more modern than what I see in Grainy pictures from 1910-1920. The Saw blades are poor representatives in white metal. I have contacted the company - but it appears they desire a minimum order of 30.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fshop.strato.de%2FWebRoot%2FStore%2FShops%2F15222754%2F4A0D%2F7665%2F2585%2FE861%2F3CB0%2FC0A8%2F28BA%2F9E30%2F30100_0020_S_00E4_gegatter_0020_H0.JPG&hash=d71c204c89639368568a4c65453d958fc960378a)
Marc: The Elephant photo indicates that these hoists were "production" items and as such must be in a catalog. However, from the angle of the photor, these could be small cranes. Do you know what date the Indian photo was taken?
Paul,
the Mo[Miniature saw is a model of saw from the early 20th century and belt driven.
If you have troubles getting some stuff from him or some other firms, let me know. Maybe I can help.
I have built it and it is a wel done kit. I replaced the blades with paper ones and later with nickle silver strips.
Jacq
Paul,
The photo of the Cochin operation is c.1905. It is almost positive that the crane is from O&K as the RR purchased everything for it's operation (including all the incline equipment, etc.) in one shot from them. The crane is one of those small loading cranes often seen on European RR loading docks or quays (unfortunately I do not have a O&K "General Catalog" to check it against) It is likely installed on some form of cribbed or concrete base...unlike US operations that were often more "temporary" in construction, this was very solidly built and engineered. Just for your interest, this line was built and operated by the British, but used all German equipemnt....but then this was pre "Great War".
I actually noted the Serbian cars, because I wanted you to ignore them....they are likely broad, meter, or std. gauge....and are not the square frame cars you are making reference to (and likely a special order item). I have a copy of the O&K "Spezial-Katalog No. 863" from 1916 for "Land und Forstwirtschaft Bahnen", from their distributor in Vysocan (near Prague)....this catalog has several styles of the square cars you are referencing (fwiw. the Indian operation also used the square frame cars)....I will scan the pages and post them.
Insofar as saw blades go, you might be able to use and cut into the correct length pieces, the PE bandsaw blade that comes in the HO scale Keystone Models bandsaw kit.
Marc
PS...Till I can get to scanning those images, here are two catalog pages from the Georges-Marien-Verien Co. ...I am not sure if these were for light locomotive or animal powered use.
Again...I know it's not Europe....but I happened to have these on the HD, and they are O&K equipment...so maybe of some interest....the top one is Argentina, and the bottom one is Paraguay.
Found that I had already scanned the timber truck pages from a different O&K catalog (same info as in the Czech catalog....just with English info/text)......
Pg2
Pg 3
Hmm...looks like I will have to scan the Czech catalog after all...there are some further variants in it that are not on the preceeding 3 pages.
...there are also some photos of logging operations/lines in there, that I will scan as well.
Marc
Here is another image of an O&K Firewood/Pulpwood car I found on my HD
MR
Marc
Quoteyou might be able to use and cut into the correct length pieces, the PE band saw blade that comes in the HO scale Keystone Models band saw kit.
Perhaps it is my searching skills, but I can not find any Keystone Models band saw other than the entire Band saw Mill kits at high prices.
Based on how small the teeth are on these saws, shim stock might substitute.
Paul,
i don't know if you are still working on this project, but I picked up the atached image a few weeks back. It's not Central European...and I don't know what time frame....But I believe around WW1
Its in France, and looks to be a tie mill....and possibly a general lumber mill as well.
Marc
Marc;
Thank you for all the wonderful photos. These make good references. I am still working on this project. However, I made the mistake of picking up 2 history books on European Sawmills. These are in German and extremely difficult to translate.
Gaebeler, Jürgen Volkskundlich-historisches Sammelsurium über Sägemühlen und Sägen
ISBN : 978-3-941300-15-6
Gaebeler, Jürgen Frühgeschichte der Sägemühlen ISBN 3935638-20-5
There appears to be great deal of pride in the old sawmills in the German Schwarzwald. These are a bit older than the mills of 1900 I am searching to replicate. Like all books on the subject, they spend more time discussing the saws, and less on the process of getting wood to and from the saw. I would like to know how the logs and lumber are moved within the mill.
Paul
Anlage, Einrichtung und Betrieb der Sägewerke
By Georg Braune published H. Costenoble, 1901 available at Googlebooks.com
This shows some interior sketches of a sawmills for the pre-1910 era. This should be a great deal of help.
I am looking for another book
Edgar Finsterbusch, Werner Thiele: Vom Steinbeil zum Sägegatter; Ein Streifzug durch die Geschichte der Holzbearbeitung. Leipzig 1987, ISBN 3-343-00275-5
German Logging tools are a bit different than those used in North America. Some of these might have been used on the central US and Northeast where the loggers were immigrant central Europeans with centuries of experience in the forest back home.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapie primary log loader along with Cant Hook
http://www.binder-krieglstein.com/holzknechtmuseum/html/sappl.html
The favored tool was the Sapie. It was not uncommon to have the bark stripped off the log in the forest with a Zugmesser. Logs are often photographed bare of bark. I believe this is because the logs were dried in the forest not at the mill
http://www.fotohintermann.de/portfolio/Waldkirchener/pages/190106Wei%df%20K%e4thl%20Kopie.htm Not a high res photo, but shows industry track layout.
Sägemühle Kottingwörth
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg404.imageshack.us%2Fimg404%2F6315%2Fsgewerkmi2.jpg&hash=a4c23b35d080c43a467fee76098ce140aeca213a)
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg443.imageshack.us%2Fimg443%2F8020%2Frtselbild0064ux7.jpg&hash=9513248c35582178fa722f65cc3303fe0988c9f1)
from the DSO www.drehscheibe-foren.de
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bdyg.homepage.t-online.de%2FBuenos_Dias%2Fspiegelauer_waldbahn_spiegelau%2F6_1_alter_hauptstrang_hauptstr%2F6_1b_alter_hauptstrang_hauptst%2Fswb-01_hauptstrecke_2007_348heh_sws.JPG&hash=821a5659679a0c6c38cbca6902603deb311159f9)
Quote from: glaskasten on January 11, 2011, 11:14:54 AM
I am looking for another book
Edgar Finsterbusch, Werner Thiele: Vom Steinbeil zum Sägegatter; Ein Streifzug durch die Geschichte der Holzbearbeitung. Leipzig 1987, ISBN 3-343-00275-5
I found this: alibris books (http://www.alibris.com/booksearch.detail?invId=10471966536&pwork=7083522&pisbn=9783343002757&siteID=5Nv03vHgBCI-ftSeT80ssm2Mf9ypxH72PA). Perhaps you could order the book there.
Looks like a great subject for modeling once you gather all the info needed. I wonder if sawmills in Germany were as "messy" as American operations.
John
http://www.muehlenverein-rodachtal.de/18529.html?*session*id*key*=*session*id*val* (http://www.muehlenverein-rodachtal.de/18529.html?*session*id*key*=*session*id*val*)
http://www.muehlenverein-rodachtal.de/4554.html (http://www.muehlenverein-rodachtal.de/4554.html)
Waterpowered mills in middle Germany with lots of photo's
Jacq
I found a book on Google Books whihc documented the I am not certain the Google Books link works for all parts of the world. Book is Anlage, Einrichtung und Betrieb der Sägewerke By Georg Braune, published in 1901. http://books.google.com/books?id=k1QDAAAAYAAJ
This book has a good sketch of the loading device shown previously. Image is on page 132.
Page of book (http://books.google.com/books?id=k1QDAAAAYAAJ&dq=Holz%20verlade%20einrichtung&pg=PA132#v=onepage&q&f=true)
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbooks.google.com%2Fbooks%3Fid%3Dk1QDAAAAYAAJ%26amp%3Bpg%3DPA132%26amp%3Bimg%3D1%26amp%3Bzoom%3D3%26amp%3Bhl%3Den%26amp%3Bsig%3DACfU3U2GHgIMTrsz53hBFqOMx2jYoSU1zg%26amp%3Bci%3D177%252C337%252C717%252C542%26amp%3Bedge%3D0&hash=3c1c1c8015a63c817a2b7e6d766c4a6d7bcafe32)
My best estimate from translating the book is the device was built by Jul Wolff & Co in Heilbronn.
There are a number of other sketches in the book for devices associated with the European industry.
Paul
The Widegren Wooden Railroad system developed in Sweden by K.A. & E.H. Widegren. Photos from a 15 page sales brochure printed in French and English.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-5jBqbEZWLGc/T29RwciRrPI/AAAAAAAAAxE/RS0cU5ZgOis/s510/Widegren-3.jpg)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-LM9nTPHIXj4/T29RwY2bQgI/AAAAAAAAAxA/Ly_b2ZpScdU/s566/Widegren-2.jpg)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-PQrQDQr2SpM/T29Rwj_ghmI/AAAAAAAAAxQ/cx0MHwaMQkU/s545/Widegren-1.jpg)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Bk1LSfR-684/T29RxadTiLI/AAAAAAAAAxY/Vw2pZeQzu9U/s544/Widegren-4.jpg)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-pvhMUA8NeK4/T29RxyfdDII/AAAAAAAAAxg/ozkM8iZIHFA/s525/Widegren-5.jpg)
At least one company was seriously considering using this system this side of the pond.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-BNhMpWL0wbU/T29UnBC02SI/AAAAAAAAAxo/WlaRW7TGJ28/s805/Widegren-6.jpg)
Interesting... appears to be similar to a pole road but a little more elaborate.
That Widegren wooden railroad system is fascinating. I've seen many photos of railroads that used logs or dressed timbers for tracks, but none that used such a novel method for keeping the wheels on the "rails."
Bill M.
Whats interesting to me from a technical standpoint is that the wheels are solid rubber. The letters refer to drawings put unfortunatly those have disapeared over the last
90 years. However there are some specifications given in the following letter - The surviving originals are carbon copies thus the dark background.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Aa90gblb6A8/T2-s2tBBOcI/AAAAAAAAAx0/fm4LHMza2zs/s800/Widegren-7.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-pdPDm9pC6Is/T2-s3DpDX3I/AAAAAAAAAxw/HE9XNtw8NL8/s800/Widegren-8.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-7M90tEoXSPg/T2-s5hnd2mI/AAAAAAAAAyA/Mpd1asLij0s/s800/Widegren-9.jpg)
G'day all,
regarding the here mentioned Widegren wooden railroad system I'd like to add another railroad on wooden rails I came across recently (and accidentally):
The so-called Cecilwood Vest Poket Railroad in Fishkill, NY, USA .. a miniature system (14" gauge line) with 2 miles of track, built almost entirely from discarded lumber and metal, running on wooden tracks with strap-iron reinforcement:
http://carendt.us/scrapbook/page105a/index.html (http://carendt.us/scrapbook/page105a/index.html) scroll to 1920'S PRIVATE RR USED RECYCLED MATERIALS TO 'WORK THE FARM' approx. in the middle of the website
or have a look at POPULAR SCIENCE MONTHLY December, 1923 (pages 40 and 41)
http://books.google.de/books?id=0ioDAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA2&dq=POPULAR%20SCIENCE%20MONTHLY%20December%2C%201923&hl=de&pg=PA40#v=onepage&q=fishkill&f=false (http://books.google.de/books?id=0ioDAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA2&dq=POPULAR%20SCIENCE%20MONTHLY%20December%2C%201923&hl=de&pg=PA40#v=onepage&q=fishkill&f=false)
Cheers