Laser Board (aka Polyester Impregnated Kraft Paper )

[RichD]

Has anyone seen the thread over on Sawmill Creek (woodworking Site) about Polyester Impregnated Kraft Paper.. also known as Laser Board and what you can do with it for model building.

There is one person (Dave Fairfield) who has laser cut windows and ladders from this stuff and it looks incredible.

The thread you want to look for is:http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=94412&highlight=laser+board.

Any thoughts or similar experience?

Rich D

Attached is a photo of Dave's work with this kind of paper

[marc_reusser]

Rich,

Very interesting. Thanks for posting. (unfortunately I can't see any of the pics without joining).

It would be worth looking into this material once they get it sorted/figured out what it is. I for one couls see numerous applications for building ones own laser models with this....especially for stuff that is made of steel...such as locomotives, amor, vehicles, and any myriad of decorative iron detail parts.

Marc

[RichD]

Marc...
I saw this product was available at Dick Blicks as stencilling or oil board.  I may go buy some and see what it is like. 

I was also hoping Russ might see this and give it a try also.. as another alternative to strathmore for scale windows, doors and especially as a substitute for metal items.

What caught my eye on the other forum site was the first thing they mentioned was the model railroad hobby as a potential group for using this material.  I am going to send the individual who made the windows a note and see if he is also one of us.. and invite him over here.

Rich D

[finescalerr]

I was enthusiastic about Strathmore because you can paint or STAIN it and it embosses beautifully if you want to add grain or nail holes (for example). It therefore seemed a good substitute for laser cut plywood for doors and windows. The material you describe might be a good substitute for plastic in some applications, as Marc suggests. While a laser can burn through styrene, it's touchy because the plastic melts. I assume that wouldn't be a problem with Laser Board. Thanks very much for the tip!

Russ

[marc_reusser]

Marc...
I saw this product was available at Dick Blicks as stencilling or oil board.  I may go buy some and see what it is like. 

I
Rich D

Rich,

If you read through the discussion you will see that one fellow notes that the oil board from Dick Blick is not the same......and will not hold the paint well...but he may be wrong.  Let me know the result of your tests.

Marc

[LaserM]

I'm not sure if anyone is still interested in this topic or not.  I have some experience cutting a number of materials with lasers.  The photo looks like it might be clear adhesive-backed polyester on a Kraft liner (non-stick backing paper).  If so, this material is used primarily for making labels.  Note how thin it is in relation to the dime. 

Polyesters (Mylar) usually cut very nicely with CO2 gas lasers leaving a nice clean edge with a very small burr along the face edge.  These parts could be pealed from the backing paper and stuck to something.  The adhesive is usually a very clear acrylic pressure sensitive type, meaning that once you stick it down, apply a bit of pressure and leave it for awhile, it better be where you want it.  Polyester by itself, generally does not always adhere to well to paint, ink, or normal adhesives.  However, in this case, the surface has been treated to take printing ink which means it will also take paint and adhesives.  Compared to other label materials, it is a bit pricey.  Compared to normal modeling supplies, it is very cheap.  There is a white version that has an even better cut quality and a metalized version available.

If it indeed a laminate board, I have not tried cutting this before but I would think it should cut nicely.  Here is a Mylar/Kraft multilayer product:
http://www.iec-international.com/fcm/fcm.htm

Thicker polyester such as drafting mylar also cuts and etches nicely with a laser. The edge burr can sometimes be removed completely if it is first laminated with a thin film of polypropylene. 

One of the best materials I have ever seen for use with laser cutting and engraving surface texture was a thick PE labeling film that was heavily filled with some sort of white oxide.  It was especially suited for ink jet printing and thick enough to scribe a beautiful brick pattern into the surface.  I would imagine it would emboss well too.

[finescalerr]

Mike, when you are in the mood, it might be helpful to everyone were you to expand on all that with a "tutorial for beginners". Some of us have found that laser cut Strathmore makes far better doors and windows than molded styrene. There are probably many other uses for laser cut materials in finescale modeling. I, for one, would love to learn what is possible and what materials are best suited to what applications.

By the way, don't be shy about signing your name to your posts. We're all friends here. -- Russ

[LaserM]

Russ,

Another night owl I see. 

I am more than a little intimidated by the average skill level of the modelers that post here.  However, I am comfortable talking lasers.  I'd be glad to put something together.  I'm not familiar with Strathmore.  From a brief internet search, it appears to be a fine quality cardstock. Do you get any discoloration of the cut or etched edges?  But your essentially correct.  You should be able to get better edges with a paper stock than a polystyrene.  However, with a bit of R&D, I am certain we can find better materials for this process or even a selection of materials for a range of effects.

I'd be glad to write up something about laser cutting and materials.  I tend to be long winded when I'm on my turf and you will probably be sorry you asked.  Let me think on it.

In the mean time, here is an example of what can be done.  This material was selected to optimize the edge quality of a packaging label.  You may have noticed that your laser cut paper has a slight bevel to it and if it was preprinted, there is probably a relatively large white edge to the cut.  Label guys don't like this.  Here is one solution to this problem.

I have attached a photo showing magnified laser-cut labels.
The top label is laminated paper stock cut against Kraft liner.
The bottom label is laminated white BOPP stock cut against Kraft paper.
Both were printed before the PP lamination was applied.
The reticle is in millimeters with the small marks at 0.1 mm intervals.

In addition to this photo, I viewed these samples using a highly magnified stereo microscope that provides a better view of the surface as it is in 3D but it does not photograph well.  The stereo view shows that the paper edge is indeed a beveled edge while the BOPP edge is nearly vertical with no white edge at all.

The BOPP edge is so steep that I could not measure any slope at all, even at high magnification.  If any bevel exists, it is well under 0.05 mm.  Nor could I see any white edge.  This sample was taken from the outer edge of the laser 1 field but all cuts looked similar to this.

The paper edge shown is also typical of the cut edges.  This sample happens to be the second from the bottom, near the middle of laser 2 field of view but I did not see any difference between this and the top edge in the laser 1 field of view.  The white paper bevel measures 0.15 mm wide.

Both samples have a half-cylinder burm along the edge of the face.  This burm measures an estimated 0.1 mm wide by 0.05 mm tall.  Measurement was difficult because of the weld-like bead shape.

Mike

[finescalerr]

Cutting Strathmore with a laser does result in light scorching along the edges. So far that seems to have created little problem for those of us who have used Strathmore doors and windows.

What I was thinking about, though, were other applications where a laser cut material might be a better choice for construction than, for example, styrene, metal, or wood. Maybe laser cutting that label material you refer to would be superior to styrene for boiler wrappers for a locomotive or tank car, especially for the transition section on a wagon top boiler.

Maybe the use of the right kind of laser cut material would simplify passenger car roof construction. Maybe it could replace photo etched brass in some applications.

Those are the kinds of applications I have been wondering about: Replacing "traditional" methods or materials with innovative laser cut materials to simplify construction or to produce more consistently excellent results.

Russ

[LaserM]

I think I see where you're going with this and I think you are right.  I was thinking that a thick, self adhesive material could add texture and detail to any surface.  I was looking through my records about a 0.019" thick PE plastic film that is very heavily doped with white, low abrasion silicates.  This gives it a very fine grain, high quality matt white surface that reminded me of unglazed porcelain.  The low abrasion silicates allow it to be fed through laser and ink jet printers safely.  But what impressed me most about this material is that it's laser cut edges and etched lines were about as perfect as I've ever seen.  Absolutely no edge berm or discoloration with very little bevel.  This means that it should take high-resolution laser etchings very well and it would be possible (at least in theory) to laser etch an embossed-like 3D surface into it.  (Don't get too excited, I don't think there is a laser system that can handle the 3D etch ... yet, but a nice wood grain should be possible with deeper lines for the seams.  Concrete, slate, or brick surfaces should look even better.)

This material is apparently made in Europe by Herma.  I don't think it was custom made material.  I'm trying to find a source for it in the US.
Herma PE Laser (800)
Adhesive 64B
Release 510

There are probably materials similar to this that cut as well but I haven't stumbled across them yet. 
Other materials and finishes may work better for other surface effects such as a semigloss materials for metals and different types of linen paper for simulating cloths.

Materials used in manufacturing folding cartons (product packaging cartons) may have some uses as well.  This material has a high quality paper on the outside surface and a cheaper paper layer on the inside surface with a soft filler in the middle.  Look in your pantry or medicine cabinet for examples of these.  It is like miniature foamboard with one surface optimized for high quality printing.  Many of these do not cut all that well with a laser but some do.

Some polycarbonates (blister packs) cut and etch very nicely with a laser and can be easily vacuum formed.  The surface can be treated to take paint and ink.

Mike

[RichD]

I have a new picture of the work from over on the SawMill Creek site from David Fairfield.  it can be found at this link
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=89313

[rslaser]

 I like Laser board and have been using it now for over a year. I use it for windows and door overlays in all scales down to Z.  It engraves great, I even do true N scale brick and block sheets. Northeastern is the only supplier I know of and it's a manufacturer only idem, but I do stock it if you want to try some. For scratching it cuts easier the card stock and is way stronger with a 12000 psi tensile strength.
rich 

[LaserM]

I am not familiar with this material at all but I have laser cut and etched many different types of materials.  You have certainly peeked my curiosity. 

What thickness does it come in?  Is it adhesive backed?  Is it stiff?  Where can you get it?

Mike

[RichD]

To rslaser and LaserM..

Are either of you familiar with the Epilog II laser engraver that is built here in the US? Actually in Golden, CO.  There are going to be on a town near me and I was thinking about seeing what they can do.

Any thoughts?

Rich

[rslaser]

I am not familiar with this material at all but I have laser cut and etched many different types of materials.  You have certainly peeked my curiosity. 
What thickness does it come in?  Is it adhesive backed?  Is it stiff?  Where can you get it?
Mike

OK it only comes in one size right now at 1/64 thick but checks out at .014 to.015. No, it is not adhesive backed but I use 3-M 467 as backing on mine. Yes, it is stiff, in fact I have done Z scale building in only laser board see photo. As I said in my other post you can get it from Northeastern Scale Lumber but is a manufacturer only idem and not in their online catalog, but I do stock it and can get it for anyone that wants it.
I do have a Epilog laser and if your are interested you should go get them out. Their service is great, I ordered a part at 4 PM their time and was at my door 8:30 the next morning  and I'm in Oregon.
rich