For the past 30+ years I've been working in 1:48 mostly North American narrow gauge prototypes and the time has come for something completely different. For several years I've been collecting information on British industrial and light railway narrow gauge with the long-term view of building a small operating diorama in a larger scale. My eyesight isn't what it used to be, this getting old business is for the birds, and doing the level of work I do in 1:48 is requiring ever stronger vision appliances, which I find to be less and less enjoyable. I will continue with the 1:48n3 projects that are currently in the works but have begun the drawing process for this new project in 1:24.
The old photo below, taken ca. 1899, is the scene to be modeled.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Froughboy.net%2Fimgs%2FKatieBelgrave.jpg&hash=b68e00af42db5600f86a4bbf3fed19189696aa24)
It is the Belgrave shed on the Eaton Hall Railway, an estate railway built to serve the Duke of Westminster's country residence at Eaton Hall. The loco in the foreground is Katie pulling a couple of loaded goods wagons. The railway was built in 1895-96 to connect the Hall to a transhipment point with the Great Western Railway's Chester-Wrexham main line at Balderton approx. 3 miles distant. Total track length of the railway was 4 1/2 miles including sidings. Traffic on the railway consisted chiefly of coal, road metal and building materials although there were passenger excursions for shooting parties and other social occasions. My primary reference source is the excellent book Sir Arthur Heywood and the Fifteen Inch Gauge Railway by Mark Smithers, published by Plateway Press in 1995. The photos here were all scanned from the book, hence their somewhat less than crisp appearance.
The photos below give somewhat clearer shots of Katie at Belgrave, built in 1896 by Abbot & Co. to specifications set forth by Sir Arthur Heywood, a strong proponent of light narrow gauge railways. In 1:24 the boiler diameter is just large enough to hold a Faulhaber micro-motor which I'll use to power the loco. The photos above give a good sense of the size of the tiny loco: overall length 8', wheelbase 3', width over bufferbeams 3'10", height to stop of stack 5'11" - it's tiny even in 1/2" scale. The loco was scrapped in 1926 except for the frame which most recently was stored at Ravenglass on the Ravenglass and Eskdale Railway.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Froughboy.net%2Fimgs%2FKatie1.jpg&hash=b3c1d21a600fe8b9f7e8a8256dfb3401714706b2)
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Froughboy.net%2Fimgs%2FKatie2.jpg&hash=0970b6d4461e0a36a78ad4e13a4d4639a66a69b5)
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Froughboy.net%2Fimgs%2FKatieDrwng.jpg&hash=049ee8cea5fe416c3ed6734c98c4dc4c57c684b1)
The Belgrave shed is still in existence. The photo below shows it in 1947 approximately 6 months before the remaining railway was scrapped. It's a substantial brick structure, 20' W. x 39' L., at least substantial for the diminutive equipment it was designed to hold. I'm definitely going to need to talk to some of you experienced brick layers before beginning construction on the shed. Fortunately I have preliminary drawings of the exterior which I'm using as a primary reference source to produce my construction drawings. Unfortunately I have only one fairly dark shot of the interior which doesn't yield much information. I expect I'll have to resort to creative license on interior details.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Froughboy.net%2Fimgs%2FBelgraveShed.jpg&hash=16014275167ac04c2aa89b3bf69305ec43e82805)
Of course, if anyone out there has photos or more information on Katie, Belgrave and the Eaton Hall Railway, I'd be most interested in hearing from you.
Paul
Paul,
very nice. if the boiler diameter is approx 2'6" you have enough room to fit a good size faulhaber. The smallest with 12V has a diameter of 8mm with a length of 20mm. You can easily fit one of the 2230 series. The length will fit within the boiler. Another good alternative is the 2619 flat gearmotor. You can also get good results with a Maxon motor.
Jacq
Thanks Jacq:
I have a spare Faulhaber 2020C0121S (same motor used in the Mich Cal Shays) which is the motor I intend to use. With the internal gearing, it's one of my favourites for small locos. It should fit vertically above the rear axle which will allow me to add sufficient weight to the boiler. At this point I'm thinking of making the boiler core from a solid brass turning, milling out a cavity for the motor. I have some Maxon and Canon motors as well, but they're too large and I don't think nearly as efficient as the Faulhaber.
Paul
Nice prototype, very attractive. I especially like the brick engine house.
Katie looks hot... :D ;D :D
This I will be watching for... Nice choice...
being the brick kinda guy.... I really like the engine house as well
Mike
Paul,
You may find some additional info on these 2 sites, usually 1/24 scale on on 16.5mm track to represent 15" gauge railways.
There have been a lot of models made on this site over the years to represent Sir Arthur 's vision, try a search through "prototypes" as well
http://forum.gn15.info/index.php
http://forum.gn15.info/index.php
Gordon
Paul,
these recent photos may be of some interest
http://s251.photobucket.com/albums/gg315/gomphus_photos/Real%20Railway%20Stuff/Eaton%20Hall%20Railway%2025th%20July%202009/
Gordon
Gordon:
Thanks for the links. I wasn't aware of the Gn15 forum... I'm going to have to spend some time browsing through there, looks like there may be some valuable info. I know of several sites with photos and videos of the "reconstructed" railway and equipment. I remember discussion of this back in the early 90s when work was going forward on the reconstructed Katie (photo below). What I'd like to find are photos of Katie's reconstruction in process, but so far I haven't had any luck. I think they would be very informative. I must say though, I've never thought much of the reconstruction/remodeling of the Belgrave Shed (photo below). It certainly looks like a committee job struggling with issues of economy and architectural indecision. However, at least they didn't replace it with a quonset hut or some similar atrocity.
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Froughboy.net%2Fimgs%2FKatieRecon.jpg&hash=d3c1602124f1e60db02ae3947a72edeca1832e16)
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Froughboy.net%2Fimgs%2FEatonHallShed.jpg&hash=40339227aeb92a9787ab3e2ec5ce7a24f3620244)
Paul
Paul ,
You're going to love me . About a month ago I was within a couple of miles of Eaton Hall when we made a family trip to Chester . I had no idea it was there . Not that I would have gone there if I had . But if you had made your request sooner I'm sure I might have persuaded the rest of the family to make a detour .
I have been looking through my back issues of the British narrow gauge magazine called "Narrow Gauge & Industrial Railway Modelling Review " , bit of a mouthful, and so far have come up with one or two references . I'll let you know more when I've finished looking .
Nick Ogden
Paul,
glad the links were of some use , here are some more which are a bit more obscure and not so obviously linked to any searches you may have made
http://www.perrygrove.co.uk/History1.html
http://stevebennett.fotopic.net/c672671.html
I live not that far away - and in american distance terms right next door so happy to get any info I can for you - the gardens and railway are only open to public about 2 or 3 times a year and I don't think the next open day will be to next spring but will check.
Gordon
Sorry forgot to add this one
http://www.greatnorthernsteam.co.uk/
These are the people who built the replica, believe they are still building a 7.5" gauge version so it might be worth contacting them for a chance of getting some build shots .
Mr Brownstone - you may want to have a look at this site as well - you can buy yourself a fully working Traction Engine ;)
Gordon
Thanks Nick - looks like it might be worth making a detour too at some point, though I understand they're only open to the public on a few occasions per year. Makes you wonder what they're up to the rest of the time... :)
I am familiar with the Review. I have a complete run through issue 31 but admit to not seeing it since. I used to write a column for it when Michael Brown was editor. When Michael retired, Roy took it over again and he evidently decided that my contributions were no longer require... :( Such is life.
Thanks for the additional links Gordon and I will likely take you up on your offer to get more info at one of their future open days. I was aware of the Perrygrove Railway site and their collection of Heywood equipment. I didn't know of the Great Northern Steam site, what a terrific place. I'd sure love to spend some time hanging about that shop being a general nuisance... ;) It's hard to imagine how they maintain such a business in today's economy but then there has always been greater support for historical preservation and reconstruction in the UK than there ever has been in this country. It's wonderful to see this kind of work continuing.
Paul
A very interesting choice of prototype, Paul!
I applaude when people choose unusual prototypes.
Its also nice to see an interest in "foreign" prototypes on the forum. Makes the forum feel even more comfy for a follower of "foreign" prototypes like myself.
Speaking of British estate railroads, there was a really nice article in issue 168 of the Model Railway Journal on a layout based on the Sand Hutton Railway, an 18" gauge estate railway. Ok,this paragraph might be slightly off topic, but I was just looking for a chance to do a little plug for the MRJ! MRJ is my favorite modeling magazine (I consider the Modelers Annual a book, Russ!). Slightly eccentric, slightly archaic, but a fun and educational read. And it never fails to inspire!
Back to the , the Katie seems like an excellent subject to be modelled in etched brass and maybe lasercut steel. A 1/24 model would be qite similiar in size and complexity to this engine in On3:
http://ljungz.com/trains/trains.html (http://ljungz.com/trains/trains.html)
This is a model of photoetched brass and lasercut steel parts for the siderods and stuff. This project was a big inspiration for my own boxcab-project.
I am really looking forward to more postings on your project!
Best regards,
Håvard H
Thanks Hauk...
MRJ is a great mag, I've always found it a wonderful source of inspiration, superb modeling and outstanding model photography. It's unfortunate that it's so difficult and expensive to get in this country.
The Sand Hutton Light Railway is another favourite. There is some good information on it in Mark Smithers book An Illustrated History of 18 Inch Gauge Steam Railways (well worth investing in if you can locate a copy). Also the Narrow Gauge Railway Society published a small book by K. E. Harley titled The Sand Hutton Light Railway that has a great deal of information along with locomotive and rolling stock drawings.
I had intended to spend this weekend working on construction drawings for Katie. However, as is so often the case (especially when you get older) life has a way of interfering with art so I made no appreciable progress. Hope to get back to the CAD program later this week.
Paul
What a neat subject! One of the most fun parts of building an unusual subject is the research.
I'll be wataching this on very closely.
Quote from: Roughboy on September 13, 2009, 07:06:38 PM
MRJ is a great mag, I've always found it a wonderful source of inspiration, superb modeling and outstanding model photography. It's unfortunate that it's so difficult and expensive to get in this country.
The process of subsribing to MRJ directly from Wild Swan (the publisher of MRJ) is bordering on the absurd. Neither MRJ or Wild Swan have a company email adress. Subscribers have to call some person privatly to get subscribtion information (involving long codes for bank transfers etc). I just gave up on this, and order the magazines from a reseller twice a year.
I order them from Bob Pearman Books (http://"www.pearman-books.com"). He accepts PayPal and I have never had any trouble ordering from him. It is really nice to receive the magazines in packages of four. He charges £3,75 (around $6,20) for the recent issues. Postage is actual shipping cost by regular email.
A little warning though, this is what I would call a "Gourmet magazine", and my liking for it could very well be called "an aquired taste". But hey, we have to read something between the Modelling annuals!
By the way, Wild Swan has some really nice modelling books, I would especially reccomend the latest one on painting and lining.
Yes, MRJ is a real pain-in-the-butt to get. I used to be able to pick up the occasional issue at an international newsagent just off Dupont Circle in Washington, DC when I lived back east. After moving to Calif, I was able to get some through colleagues in the UK from time to time, but even that got to be too expensive after a while and it was always inconveniencing someone else. So, now that I live in the cultural desert of central Calif (can't even get Uncle Russ' books here ???) I've basically given up on MRJ, hoping that one of these days they'll move into the 21st century and offer online ordering and so on. I don't understand the mindset of any publisher in this day and age who doesn't maintain an online portal, but they are a touch eccentric... ;) The closest thing I've found to a web site for them is http://www.titfield.co.uk/WSmain.htm (http://www.titfield.co.uk/WSmain.htm) so perhaps things are looking up...
Wild Swan is an excellent publisher for those here who don't know their publications. I have several but my favourite by far is Martyn Welch's The Art of Weathering, hands-down the best book ever published on weathering railroad models (that is until Chuck Doan writes his!).
Paul
Really neat project idea.....I look forward to seeing this develop, and how you go about it. Will be a great lerning experience for all here I am sure.
M
Thanks Marc... I'm looking forward to spending as much of the weekend as possible working on the loco construction drawings, hopefully with some progress. Had planned to do that last weekend, but ended up in the hospital instead which tends to put a damper on modelling activities as well as most everything else for that matter.
Paul
Came across a short video from August 2005 of the reconstructed Katie at work at Eaton Hall. Love that waggly bit valve gear.... Click link below to view the video, at least I hope it works, never had much luck posting video links. If it doesn't work, the video is posted on the Roughboy]=http://roughboy.net]Roughboy (http://=http://roughboy.net) site.
http://roughboy.net/imgs/eatonparklong.wmv (http://roughboy.net/imgs/eatonparklong.wmv)
Video credit is © G A Cryer, http://www.geoffspages.co.uk/raildiary/eatonpark/index.htm (http://www.geoffspages.co.uk/raildiary/eatonpark/index.htm) where there are a few more photos and a shorter video.
Paul
Paul -
Thanks. The video link works fine.
The valve gear linkages are quite complicated on that little machine.
Mark
I downloaded the movie, but when I try to run it (using QuickTime Player) it says, "This file is not a movie."
Ray:
Movie is a .wmv file (Windows media). If you are using Quicktime on a MAC, download the free version of Flip4Mac from Apple and you will be able to play .wmv files in Quicktime.
The movie is posted on my site http://roughboy.net (http://roughboy.net) and you can watch it there without downloading, though depending on the speed of your connection, you may or may not get sound. Video quality is not that great to start with. Alternately I have a Quicktime version of the movie that I could send you if you like.
Paul
Ah, I see. Thanks!
Quote from: gfadvance on September 11, 2009, 02:32:25 AM
http://www.greatnorthernsteam.co.uk/
These are the people who built the replica, believe they are still building a 7.5" gauge version so it might be worth contacting them for a chance of getting some build shots .
Gordon
Gordon:
I contacted Great Northern Steam and they told me that James Waterfield built the Katie replica. I also contacted an old friend, Andrew Neale who is working on a full-size Katie. He has offered to put together an info pack for me so I'm awaiting more details and confirmation on that from Andrew. He confirmed what I was afraid of, that no original drawings or documents concerning Katie's construction survive, apart from the Abbot & Co. boiler drawing (still in business btw). On a hunch, I contacted
The Engineer (based on some Smithers references) in the hopes that I could convince someone to do an archive search through their late 19th century issues. That seems to me unlikely, but you never know, certainly worth a try. If I can get accurate enough information, I may go ahead and publish my drawings for any future modelers who want to attempt this loco.
Paul
Guys, I'm wondering if someone could help me with settings or somehow fixing my version of wmv files, please pm me if you can help and I will explain my dilema and delete this. Thanks for any help Pat
Mike Dekker in Denver is/was very heavily into Heywood stuff and produced most of the better drawings (there were allegations floating around at one stage that Smithers had lifted some of Dekker's drawings for his book without due credit). Would he have any more information on Katie?
That's a possibility Kevin... thanks for the lead.
Paul
Paul,
semi useful link http://www.7-8ths.info/index.php?topic=16680480.msg25398#msg25398
Thanks Gordon. I'm awaiting my info package from Andrew. He did mention that the frame construction for Katie followed very closely the construction principles of the 0-6-0s, though obviously much simpler. Smithers made much the same assumption, go I'm going forward based on their assumptions.
Paul
Hello, Paul.
A little company in Scotland called N-Drive Productions already produces a Katie in 0-9 for 9 mm.gauge. I'm sure an e-mail to Neville would tell you from whence came his drawings and information.
I don't have the e-mail address with me, but give me half an hour and I'll put it up.
At present I am about to start a brass master for him of "Effie", an even smaller prototype than "Katie". And I will possibly be doing a master of a Heywood loco in 7/8" scale too. It is very strange having models on my bench which go from 2mm scale , through 7mm and 1/32nd to 1/12th!!
The best of luck with this project and thanks for picking one of our quirky little chaps.
Of course, Sir Arthur was deadly serious about his choice of gauge. Despite having enough money not to need to work (what we English used to call "a Gentleman"), he did achieve a decent degree in Engineering from Cambridge.
Check out his fancy "radiating" axles for the 0-8-0 loco. Who'll be the first to replicate that in the smaller scales?!!
Nurser
Hi Paul, OK, so not exactly half an hour!
The e-mail address is n.driveproductions@yahoo.co.uk
Give him a shout. His name is Neville Kent.
Cheers.
Nurser:
Thanks for the lead, much appreciated... I'll get in touch with Mr. Kent and see where that leads.
Effie is a TINY one, but cute (not a term usually applied to railway equipment). If any loco could ever be called cute it would be Effie. I'm assuming the master is in one of the larger scales, at least for the sake of your eyes!
Yes, Sir Arthur was definitely a "Gentleman," and a committed individual who could afford the luxury of pursuing and promoting his interests without the nagging concern of how to pay the gas bill this month :) Funny how that interferes with our pursuits... ;) I'm still trying to get my mind around the radiating axles, can't imaging trying to replicate those in miniature and have them be functional. I expect someone with a great deal more machining talent than I have could manage it.
Paul
Paul,
I'm not sure if you got my PM about my chum Ken for drawings, but if not let me know and I'll see what went wrong, if it did! He has drawings of just about every item of Haywood stock.
The master I'm doing is only British O scale (1/43.5), but running on 9mm track. And yes it IS tiny, but I have a new client who wants 16mm scale stuff. Now that, I can actually see with my glasses ON!!
Best,
Nurser
Nurser:
Yes I did receive your PM about Ken and replied to it... hopefully the reply went through. Haven't had an opportunity to contact either gentleman yet, but will do so shortly. Thanks again for the leads... I'll keep you posted.
Effie in 1/43.5 is TINY... just about 2" long if my mathematic skills aren't failing me completely...
Paul
Paul, I think it struggles to reach even that!
I haven't done anything with it just yet as I'm completing an even tinier Wisbech and Upwell Tram Loco in 2mm scale!!
Happy to help.
Best,
Nurser.
Hector/Martin/Paglesham/Nurser ;) ;D....great to see you posting here again....always enjoy your insight, knowledge and the beautiful work.
Paul; the radiating axle....is that like/sim to the O&K "Klein-Linder" type of axle.....if so, I believe I have a catalog drawing of those (and I think a 3D cutaway image as well), if you are interested...and it's of use for machining reference ;) ;D
Marc
Quote from: Nurser on October 12, 2009, 03:44:56 AM
I'm completing an even tinier Wisbech and Upwell Tram Loco in 2mm scale!!
Nurser.
Holy smokes... you must be working with a microscope on that!
Marc: I'm not familiar with the "Klein-Linder" axle specifically. The Duffield Bank radiating axle allowed the wheels to radiate in tandem about the axle while the axle remained perpendicular to the frame, allowing the locos to negotiate tight curves. Essentially there were two axles, the primary steel axle which passed through the bearings and connected with the counter-weights and side-rods. The wheels were connected to a larger diameter hollow iron axle which fit over the primary axle. The two were connected in the center by a ball joint and pin, allowing the outer axle & wheels to pivot on the primary axle, all while rotating. Quite an ingenious system. Would be fun :o (in the full masochistic sense) to make one up as a scale machining challenge. Yes please, I would certainly be interested in looking at your catalogue drawing and cutaway -- curious to see if it's a similar solution to the problem.
Paul
Marc, thankyou...the numerous names were due to my not being able to log in suddenly and then not being able to get the original name back on, so I had to keep coming up with new ones!! Nothing to do with secrecy, I assure you. It seems impossible to keep a secret on the ether, doesn't it? Just my limited computer savviness, I suppose.
The Heywood Collection website has a drawing of that ingenious axle also. Aparently Heywood came up with it before Klein-Lindner(Linder?)
I doubt it would be needed for anything below 32nd scale and even then would be a tour de force of machining and setting up.
The Tram engine is now finished and so I begin a master for "Effie" in 0-9, which will be a stable mate for N-Drive's "Katie", also in 0-9, but in resin. This one will be in white metal, so have a bit of weight to pull all those strange vehicles they had. There was even a sleeping car!!
Cheers,
Nurser
A very entertaining and informative thread.
Here ar a couple of links that might be interesting to people reading the thread:
http://www.perrygrove.co.uk/heywood-collection.html (http://www.perrygrove.co.uk/heywood-collection.html)
(Yep, I know a link deeper down in the site was posted earlier in the thread, but what the heck...
http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/LOCoLOCO/heywood/heywood.htm (http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/LOCoLOCO/heywood/heywood.htm)
Regards, Håvard H
Welcome back Nurser. Missed you.
John
Havard... thanks for posting the radiating axle link, much appreciated.
Nurser: well just for shits and grins or perhaps it's early onset of dementia, but I've started a 3D CAD drawing of the radiating axle. I'm hoping by the time I figure it out the engineering in CAD, I'll have some idea how to machine one... should be fun. Will post drawings here when completed.
Paul