Westlake Publishing Forums

The diorama base looks like it will be as exacting and well modeled as the rest of the scene. Have you decided on how you will make the water?

I have read countless tutorials on epoxy resin water. This seems the way to go, but I have no idea yet, how to simulate water flowing around the pillar at different speeds.
As a consequence there must follow another thin layer on the smooth surface. But what kind of stuff???



BTW: Is it possible to sand and polish epoxy resin when dry?

hi peter.
tricky question.
to me thinking of expoxy resin you have to disturb the surface.polishing wont work as it will destroy the transparent nature  of the resin.what i would do is to get the resin to cure at different rated.
1- pour your 2 part resin.
2- wait till that first stage is hardening, then with a brush apply some of the hardener to the ares that you want distressed  thus creating a rippling affect.
i personally have never tried this approach but it is where i would start .just see where it will end.
kind regards kim

just another thought dont use a brush use a eye dropper.

Hi Kim

I know, you have a lot of experience with epoxy water. So, thank you for your advice!
The question that raises from time to time: Why not Polyesther Resin? The stuff, that is used to poure in insekts and small pieces of jewelry!
It seems to harden glass clear, is sandable and can be polished.
But I haven't found a modeler that used this in his layout.
Is it too difficult, too harmful or can it lead to cracks at bigger surfaces?

The example of lightly swirling water that you posted reminds me of horizontal surfaces that had resin quickly applied and quickly cured. The slight 'swirling' effect was accidental, though, and not controlled.

Some modelers create wave effects by manipulating the resin surface just as it begins to gel. They use disposable brushes and hair driers. I think it possible to use small fine tools like toothpicks, needles, thin wire instead to gently create swirling patterns in the smooth surface at that point.

Here is a discussion of polyester vs polyurethane. I have used both, but neither in a modeling application. Polyester is definitely sticky and odiferous!  https://www.artmolds.com/polyurethane

A friend unfamiliar with woodworking recently tried using Minwax water based wipe on polyurethane to refinish a table top because it sounded very simple to apply. The product is as thin as water and can be recoated within a couple hours.
http://www.minwax.com/wood-products/clear-protective-finishes/wipe-ons/minwax-water-based-wipe-on-poly
The product was applied both with a foam brush and a lint free rag. Even though it was applied very thinly and quickly, the friend reported it began to set faster than he could maintain a wet edge. He also got a few tiny bubbles in places near the edges. He reported that the finish set and cured with a slightly rippled surface like water, some areas did not settle out and level, so they were very slightly raised above the rest when looked at at a low angle with a low angled light source.
That sounds a bit like the effect you are trying for, if it can be controlled.

Just this week a model railroading person I am in contact with used a resin product called Magic Water for the very first time to pour a large HO scale harbor. He made three pours of two full boxes to get the depth he wanted. He liked the results which were a glass smooth surface. He then brushed on  Liquitex acrylic gel to create a slightly rippling surface all over, so it's too late to ask him now what the Magic Water surface looked like when examined up close at a low angle. The Magic water cures relatively slowly which leaves time for manipulating the surface.

I haven't found a description of what kind of resin this product is, only that it was supposedly designed for modeling water, dries crystal clear, won't yellow or crack and can be poured in multiple layers.
http://www.unrealdetails.com/

Hi Bill

Thank you very much for your interesting and informative thoughts. Meanwhile I've googled about epoxt resin. It's obviously a science of its own, What I am looking for is a product, that is getting stiff so that I could sand and polish it. Magic water seems to remain slightly flexible - not ideal for this pupose.
Here, what I intend to do after completion of the groundwork:



1. Some layers of epoxy resin up to the upper edge of the woodwork (light blue part).
2. Sanding and polishing of the resin surface (Now, if this is possible at all...).
3. Overcoat of a thin coat (resin/acrylics?) with lightly swirling effects done with a hair drier
   or so (dark blue part).

So I need a base that is stiff enough to be sanded and polished down to an absolute flat surface, before applying the last lyer.

What's about several layers of epoxy resin or acrylic resin floor coatings? Just an additional idea

What about using a piece of acrylic sheet which is solid to start with?  Since you indicate you are going to top coat it with a material to give the surface its ripples it could be machined to a close fit and polished first. 

Peter, If you are going to apply a final thin layer on top of your base layers of water and if the top layer is a different material than the base layers, then you might not want a highly polished base layer in order for the top layer to have better mechanical adherence to it. Also I believe urethanes yellow over time. "Clear" epoxies mostly start out with an amber tint at least

I have read about aircraft modelers who have "fixed" small scratches in a clear styrene canopy by dipping the canopy into "Future" (now Pledge acrylic floor care). They suspend the canopy so the excess acrylic drains off an end. When that dries it looks crystal clear and the scratches have disappeared. I have tried it with small pieces of clear flat styrene cut for window glass and it did give the entire piece a bright, more transparent (if that is possible) appearance. So I do not think you have to polish out all traces of your sanding in order to get a transparent finish.

Lawton's idea of using a piece of clear acrylic sheet for the base layer may be a good solution if there is not a cutaway view of the side of the river. If you consider that option, "cell cast acrylic" is the most optically transparent and it also is harder and machines more cleanly than either "extruded" (the least strong or flat) or "continuous cast" (properties are in between the other two). Cell cast comes in different thickness and in opaque and transparent colors. You might find a source that uses it and get samples to try or even a piece large enough for your diorama.

Here is one more, perhaps impractical ($$$$), but intriguing possibility:
At a model railroad show I saw some excellent architectural models that were laser cut and laser etched into clear cell cast acrylic. The company also made details parts including a laser etched clear acrylic concrete sidewalk. They etched fine cracks and extremely shallow surface irregularities into the sidewalk. So my thought is, what if you drew the swirling pattern of water you want for you bridge abutments and had that laser etched into a piece of cell cast acrylic thick enough to be the water you need. Then you could either perhaps polish the acrylic, which works well and would further enhance the fluid appearance of the surface, or perhaps instead simply coat the etched sheet with a thin layer of "Future" instead of polishing?

Dave Krakow (Vectorcut) is a member of this forum. He hasn't been active in awhile, but he makes amazing laser cut details in laser board. This project might be something he could

Epoxy resin can shrink, another reason to think about whether it's your best choice. Don McKenney, a very good modeler, found casting resin "unforgiving". Instead he "painted the bottom of the pond with acrylic artist's paints (blues, greens, and browns), then applied a thick layer of Liquitex medium viscosity acrylic gloss medium and varnish. It turned out beautifully. It cleans up with water and produces no toxic vapors or smelly fumes." -- Russ

Peter, IMHO don't go down the epoxy route it yellows , you will never beat it's "creep" factor and is to me just too unforgiving

In this thread http://www.finescalerr.com/smf/index.php?topic=2435.45 , about halfway down there is a link to a very fine warship builder and how he does his water ...... Which is As Russ suggested is the Liquitex method.

By using his wave technique of forming them using a the Liquitex medium and then over coating with their  glaze I think you could achieve the results you are looking for  I.e. Paint on the shape of your ripples and tidal patterns then use multiple coats of the glazing medium to smooth out and provide the high gloss you need for water. Not in his class of work but you see in the thread the windblown ripple effect I achieved using his methods

Again it only an opinion but the huge advantage this method has is that you could do the water as a seperate piece shaped to fit around your pillars , rather than the all or nothing approach that a resin  provides, which ever type you use. As you glaze your piece you will get a build up of glaze on the edges but dries to a hard but very slightly flexible finish and is easily trimmed ..... Any slight gapes can be filled after fitting in place with more of the glaze, with the same optical properties it will not show

Peter, please accept my apologises ......... Just had a look at the thread I mentioned above and I can see you had already seen it and commented.

Sorry for repeating

Hi Gordon

Thanks for reading my thread and ...there is no need for apolgises. It's a tricky thing and I have the feeling that I am treading water the more I am searching for a satisfying solution.
This link I found recently:

http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=33880&whichpage=16

Peter, The RRL Forum thread you posted is a good example of how a new resin pour will hide any scratches from sanding the previous pour.

Here is a more recent thread from RRL Forums about pouring Magic Water right to the top edge of the border of the scene, then adding ripples with Liquitexhttp://railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=40790&whichpage=53
The water pour begins about halfway down this page and runs for several pages before it's topped off with the Liquitex gloss gel.

Both of those examples demonstrate that the Liquitex can work well for surface effects - but I think the effects you seek are less random, overall windblown ripples covering the entire surface and more directional current lines, swells and swirls. The Liquitex should be able to do that too with a bit of practice.

How about this (simpler than the previous off the wall laser etched ripples!) Find or take a photo looking straight down at a pattern of water that you like. Place a piece of clear acrylic sheet on top of the photo and with a small brush "trace" the major lines and patterns directly onto the top of the sheet with the clear Liquitex gel. That will give you the directional flow you want. see how that works and then modify it as needed.

My sense is you are much more comfortable with the high level of precision and control you can apply to constructing the structure, but it is the irregularity and randomness of the transient flow patterns of the water that is holding you back. If that is so, give some method, any method, a test run without any intention of ever using it. Try pouring, swirling with a toothpick, painting with a fine brush, painting with your finger, whatever, and actually see what results you can create

Thanks for that interesting link. Looks really like a promising approach and the result is very convincing. As both products aren't available at the site I still have some time left to improve the river bed. But I will give them a try!

Quote from: Bill Gill on August 03, 2016, 03:57:03 AM
My sense is you are much more comfortable with the high level of precision and control you can apply to constructing the structure, but it is the irregularity and randomness of the transient flow patterns of the water that is holding you back.

You are right. Creating landscapes isn't my thing at all. Aware of that, I prefered to start with the groundwork at this stage. If it don't work, I can start over again and again as I am used to! (Actually I did the cast supports for the lower bearings for the fourth time...)



Cheers, Peter