I've recently started to build a Willamette donkey. I found the original on Chuck's Fotki site at this address :
http://public.fotki.com/ChuckDoan/prototype_pictures/willamette_donkey_engine/
I guessed the overall dimensions from plans in the Gazette and Timbertimes of analog models. It happened that they were compatible with a reuse of an empty aspirine container, and this is how everything started looking a bit miserable.
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The donkey job will be to hoist small boats for basic repair works on a diorama closely inspired from Dave Revelia's "Boat repair diorama" featured for instance here
http://www.modvid.com.au/html/body_revelia-boat_repair.html
and also in the 2004 Logging, Mining & Industrial Annual.
After some pondering about the fact of buying expensive rivetting tools or trying to scratchbuild one with the material available at home, I decided to use 'manual method' and to drill a myriad of holes, to be filled with adequate castings. As a math teacher, I often use a basic drawing program that allows to create precisely sized pdf files which when printed make excellent templates. This is how I did the drilling templates below.
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The two thin ones were taped to thin sheets of styrene and using a scriber, I marked the location of the holes. Then I MEKd them to the boiler and when the MEK and styrene were dry and solid, drilled the holes.
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The wider one was directly attached to the boiler, holes were drilled through the paper and the paper was then removed.
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More holes were then drilled to insert the various devices located all around the boiler. Some of the locations were guessed but with the help of pictures and the dimensionnal hint of the space between rivets, it doesn't look so bad.
Here is a shot of a S scale model I had done ten years ago.
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The model I'm currently building is an O scale one.
That is pretty much the way I would have gone about it. Then somebody like Paul, Marc, Jacq, Marty, or one of the other guys shows how to do it in a way I never would have thought of. So now I'm waiting for somebody to ask, "Why didn't you simply ...?" But heck with that; nice job, Frederic! --Russ
Looking good so far!
Frederic,
Great looking start. Being able to use a drawing program to produce your templetes must save a lot of layout time, time better used drilling rivet holes :D ;) ;D.
Are you going to drill the tell-tale holes in your stay-bolts? I'm sure Russ will expect to see them ;D ;) :D.
Later
Rick
here's a awesome site
http://wegmuller.org/logging/index.html
Quotehere's a awesome site
Thanks for the hint. Some very interesting plans and sketches there, plus the photos.
Rick, it certainly would be a shame not to try making Russ the happiest of the men, but for an ignorant like me, "drilling the tell-tale holes in the stay-bolts" is quite an esoteric sentence...
Frederic,
this looks like a great project. I am a bit concerened that the Willamette is a much bigger machine than would be needed...but no big deal. I will see whay I have pre-scanned that I can pull out to help you.
Below are some images from the 1925 catalog (my original not the OSO reprint...so no copyright problems)
Duplex Loader
Thank you Marc. I agree on the fact it's a bit oversized, but I had the luck to have Chuck's pics with all their details available, so it seemed a good compromise. And it will fit easily in the space available on the dio.
Thanks for the pics. Even it it were not to build a model, I love these beautiful technical drawings.
Let me wish you a good recovery from your biking problem...
Watching more closely Marc's pics reminds me of asking a technical question : what's the use of the sprocket chain visible on the first pic and located on the side opposite to the engineer?
Frederic,
I am not familiar enough with the technical aspects of the machines to be able to tell you what those chains were for.
Here is more along the lines of what I thought a setup like yours would use/need.
Here is a spec sheet for that one.
AHD Details
AHD Details 2
AHD Details 3
AHD Details 4
AHD Details 5
AHD Details 6
AHD Details 7
AH& D 2-Drum Hoist
AH&D 2-Drum Hoist Spec sheet.
AHD Builders Hoist
Lidgerwood 2 Drum Hoisting Engine
Lidgerwood Parts 1
Lidgerwood Parts 2
Lidgerwood Parts 3
What a fabulous amount of information, Marc! Many thanks.
I must say the AH&D two drum - two winch would certainly fit the job very well. And with the much simplified rivetting pattern, it wouldn't be a drama to restart from zero.
I'll have to think to it seriously. Is there any place in your catalog with more dimensionnal data (length, width of the frame, maybe a scale elevation)?
I'll allways find a way to use the Willamette project, and the Willamette catalog I've just ordered.
Wow, thanks for posting all that detailed info, Marc! That single drum hoist, could it be used as a mine hoist?
Frederic :
No scale drawings so far. Will look some more. Al Armitage and Some others did scale plans for these types of hoist engines.
Ray:
In a pinch you might be able to, but there are actually specific ones desogned for mines....I have them somewhere in one of my catalogs....they tand to have lerger spool capacity, and they are lever controlled. Many of them do not have a bouler, as in a mine the steam would be supplied by the main boiler/boilerhouse. I will post them whan I run across them.
Marc
Thanks, I would appreciate that!
Frederic....Going to hijack your thread here for a few, to post the images of the Clyde Iron Works Mine Hoists for Ray....these are from their 1912 catalog.
Clyde
Clyde
Clyde
Clyde
Clyde
Clyde
Clyde
Clyde electric
Clyde electric
At this time, this concludes our Mine Hoist section.
Hi Frederic,
QuoteRick, it certainly would be a shame not to try making Russ the happiest of the men, but for an ignorant like me, "drilling the tell-tale holes in the stay-bolts" is quite an esoteric sentence...
I don't know if your serious or not but will take it that way. The stay bolts were used to hold the fire box sheet and the boiler water jacket apart and in stable position. The "rivets" around the bottom section of your Willamette boiler are actually stay bolts. The stay bolts had a hole drilled into them from the outside and if any of them broke or cracked they would leak steam/water creating a tell-tale to the operator so he would know they needed repair. What usually happend in actual operation is that a nail was driven into the tell-tale to stop the leak and the nail sticking out acted as a marker for repair at the end of the logging season when the equipment was refurbished.
The attached sketch isn't real clear but shows the general idea.
Later
Rick
That was quick! Thanks! I think one of those hoists might be just the ticket for one of my older mines.
Ray,
I found Lidgerwood catalog from 1893 in my library, that has a bunch more mine hoisting engines, they are all pretty sim to the ones already posted, though one design has a side elev. drawing (no scale)....I can scan and post it if you want.
Frederic:
I am sorry, but I have to say that I am glad that you are not going to use the Willamette for your project (as these were really logging specific engines), and changing to a smaller unit. FWIW There are two smaller units (hoisting engines) shown in the 1925 catalog,...I am sure you will see them when you get yours....that are sim to the ones I have posted by the other mfrs.
One thing that really pointed against the use of the large Willamette (other than it being a logging engine) is the fact that logically a used boiler for a maritime facility like yours would most likely come from one of several places: either an old boiler and winch set-up salvaged from a ship, and old boiler and winched salvaged from a dock (they used to have them for loading and unloading cargo), or a second hand/used boiler from some kind of construction company.......in any case they would all be of the smaller size. I have the instruction sheet drawings for a CHB 2-drum hoist engine..(not to scale)......I will scan them and post them along with a reference dimension. I also have a drawing (I think from a Bill Roy Plan Pack) for a single drum "utility steam donkey" that was used on the docks in San Francisco, that I will scan & post here.
Marc
Rick : thanks for the explanation about the holes and, sometimes, nails in the bolts. I had seen some of these nails and had no idea about their use. Now, I know.
Marc : no problem with the additionnal pictures, this is not hi-jack but cultural tourism. And I agree on the more prototypical aspect of the smaller machine, not too logging looking. Thanks for all the information, and in advance for all the new images you plan to add.
Hi Frederic,
I went back and looked at Chuck's pictures again, you can see the tell-tales in the stay bolts clearly. Look at the plain rivets in the lap seam or the bond seam around the top, they look the same as the staybolts except for that small hole.
Good choice changing machines, Marc did a good job pointing out the reasons. Now you will have to build a log loading/transfere scene so you can use the 9 1/4 X 10 ;) ;D
That does resemble one of Bill's drawings.
Later
Rick
Thanks for giving a second look, Rick.
Well, you know the donkey is being built for a diorama that I will offer to one of my friends. And my main modelling scale is Sn3. I may end with a Willamette to offer too... ;)
Frederic,
Sorry for the delay...had to get to my office and the scanner.
Below is sheet 1 of the drawings from the CHB 2-spool kit....I do not know what the scale of the drawings are, or if they were all the same...but the scribbled in dimensions are from measurements taken of the actual kit parts...so you should be able to use them as a starting point to build from.
Page 2 of the CHB kit
This is a scan of a loose Xerox I had.....I believe it may be from a copy of one of Bill Roy's (McKenzie Iron & Steel) donkey plan sets....it has that look, but not sure.
Hi Marc, Frederic,
Those CHB plan sheets look like they are from the 1/4 scale AH&D hoisting engine kit that they released many moons ago. I have a complete set of those around here somewhere that I used to build a 1:20 scale three drum hoisting engine on skids a coupla years ago. Good plans, build into a nice engine.
Later
Rick
Marc, Thanks for sharing those. Just what I need for more research. The overhead view takes the guesswork out of boiler orientation.
What is the difference between round and conical rivets other than appearance?
Of all the companies, were the boilers manufactured by the same company? There is a distinct difference between boilers. Some, as the one Frederic is modeling has a strip of metal holding it together with a 4 row rivet pattern and the others are 2 rows overlapping the start point. Willamette 4 and dolbeers 2?
Sorry for butting in Frederic.
Philip
Philip:
I really am not that knowledgeable on the actual construction practices of the builders, but as far as I understand it, the various companies all built their own boilers. Some may have used boilers from a special "boiler builder/mfg."...but I can't really say. John Taubeneck, is probably the definitive historian on donkey engines. Last I heard he was working on a book about the various mfrs., but I don't know the status of it at this time.
One thing to also remember is that the Dolbeers were really the one of, if not the, first incarnations of these for logging application (though there were other sim looking ones by other mfrs). Willamette engines came later and were much larger and far more powerful and complex.
Early on there were also a shop-built or local-built variants that are far less to little known, but followed or copied the designs of the more popular mfrs. Some local foundries/iron works even went as far as making copy castings....most often to replace broken parts on engines from nearby operations...but this on occasion evolved into copies of, or variants of, engines by local shops.
There were distinct differences between donkey engines from the various big mfrs. (Willamette, Washington Iron Works, Smith & Watson, Clyde, Skagit, etc.) even from the same time period. There was also an evolution of the engines as the operations and logs got larger, and the environment in which they operated and the tasks they needed to perform became more complex and tasking.
Rick:
You are correct. The plans are from the 3-drum AHD....However the drawings posted show the complete 2-drum portion......the third drum was in a seperate added frame assembly, and shown on a seperate/additional plan sheet.
Thanks for your last posts, Marc. I printed the CHB plans. The two sheets didn't seem to be scaled with the same factor but at least eaxh sheet was coherently scaled.
I think that there's a small discrepancy in the plan from above since at 44"the diameter of the boiler should be only 2" less than the 3'10" width between the I-beams. I decided I keep the boiler diameter at 44" and slightly increase the width, and the length accordingly (it's only 0.2" more than what it would be at an exact 6' long). This will definitely be a smaller engine than the initially planned Willamette. With the help of your posted pictures from the catalog, it should be a pleasure to build, and to be as fashionable as Jacq, I think the build will feature some paper modelling.
If anybody built this type of donkey - or has pictures of a real one - I'll be very glad if they can post additionnal pictures on this topic.
Hi Phillip,
QuoteWhat is the difference between round and conical rivets other than appearance?
It is my understanding that appearance is it. The round head, conical, and flat head, rivet were just different looking with the same basic requirements for head diameter, shank diameter and shank length, for the material being rivited. The countersunk head rivet is the only one I know of that had different set requirements, that is more distance required from the sheet edge to the shank hole because of the countersink.
The seam riveting that you asked about had mostly to do with boiler pressures and leakage. The early boilers like the Dolbeer's were of relative low pressure and usually used a simple lap seam with one or two rows of rivets. Later, as boilers and machines became more sophisticated and boiler pressures increased better/tighter seams had to be used. The Butt seam with lap plates inside or outside with more rivets to increase the strength of the seam and spread the stress over a larger area became common.
Marc's brief history in the post above is spot on, especially the information about copying parts. I guess patent rights wasn't a big worry in the early days, or maybe it was mostly a case of nobody finding out about the copied parts due to the remote locations.
Frederic,
I apologize, I don't mean to sidetrack your thread. As I mentioned earlier I built the AH&D 3 drum in 1:20 scale from that set of plans and have a build log on a CD around here somewhere. I'll gladly send you a couple of pictures but it will have to wait until after the 15th as I am leaving for Alaska in the morning.
Later
Rick
No problem, Rick. All sources of information are great. Good trip to Alaska!
Here are a couple of sources of information on boiler rivets and stay bolts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPsrdp-4RmI
http://chestofbooks.com/crafts/scientific-american/sup7/Riveted-Joints-In-Boiler-Shells-Continued.html
http://www.herculesengines.com/Steam/Boiler%20Construction/index.htm
Later
Rick
Very interesting links, Rick. The video wes quite a surprise for me. I hadn't imagined the rivetting job was so hot...
Great news. I suddenly remembered that in Steve Harris' book "Logging with steam", where he described how he built Mich-Cal Shay #2 in 1 1/2" scale and some other well sized goodies, there also was the description of the building of a donkey. So I hurried up to my copy and was delighted to see it was a AH&D donkey, precisely the two drum hoist model with the frame extension for the second drum.
Since these articles are step by step instructions aimed at the modeller who wants to build the model, they feature complete plans and many explanations, that will extensively complement the great documentation provided by Marc.
Found these, and thought they might be interesting....
Thank you for the new images, Marc. The progress on this project may seem slow - and indeed it is- but in fact, I used some of my free hours, when my girl dances and my son plays the trumpet, to translate Steve Harris' 1 1/2" to the foot measurements into O scale dimensions. Now I have accurate dimensionnal data for a good number of parts of the AH&D donkey.
Hi Frederic,
Back from Alaska and thawed out.
I found some pictures and text from my AH&D build (5 years ago). I have a PDF file of it but can't see how to load it on this forum so will go with some pictures and text from another source.
I will start a thread in the "Gallery" forum so I don't clutter up your build thread. It may take a few days to get it all posted.
I hope it will be of some help to you.
Rick
Thanks, Rick. The first images are already very informative - and also display a superb model.
Hi Frederic,
Here are some pictures I had been looking all through my files for.
This is the 1894 Lidgerwood double drum hoisting engine that is on display/in operation at Fort Humboldt in Eureka, California.
This little engine spent most of it's working life on a barge in the bay as a pile driver power source.
and was donated to the logging display at Ft. Humboldt a number of years ago.
In the first picture we are getting it fired up and ready for the weekend festivities "Donkey Days" and in the second picture (wearing the green hat) is yours truly working as the Donkey Puncher.
Later
Rick
thats up close and personal!
Philip
Here are a couple more pictures from "Donkey Days" last year that are only sort of relevent. They are of the Little steam locomotive "Falk" with yours truly at the throttle. Being relevant to donkeys by way of the patent holder, John Dolbeer, this locomotive was built by Marschutz and cantrell of San Francisco in 1884, and worked in the Redwood forests of Humboldt County it's entire career.
Retired in 1927 it was put on public display, fired up again for a celebration in about 1939 then retired again. Donated to Fort Humboldt/State of California it was rebuilt and refitted and put back in operation in 1986. It is now fired and operated at least once a month all summer long during the steam up festivities at Fort Humboldt along with her more or less sister engine, "Bear Harbor #1", also built by Marschutz & Cantrell in 1892.
Neat little engines.
Later
Rick
Too cool!
Thanks for the additionnal pictures. They being somewhat personnal adds to the nice gift you make for us all.
I love this little "Falk" locomotive.
Just ask Gordon ( or Russ) to put up some photo's of Falk.....:D ;D
Jacq