1/87 Fishing Trawler

[DaKra]

Hey Russ, that sums it up.   The current "craftsman kit" style is a distortion and re-distortion of John Allen interpretations.    Plus its much easier and faster to build a model when you aren't burdened by such concerns as proportion, prototype, precision or quality, and "details" are just dumped out of the box to fill up space.  And its immune to criticsm, sheilded as it is by the "caricature" defense.   What I really want to know is why it doesn't just go away?   Why can't people see this stuff is ugly and meaningless?

Your music analogy is too kind.   The standard for these kits is past Charlie Parker wannabees.  Its well into Elvis impersonators and drunken Japanese businessman Karaoke.   Its just stale comedy now. 

Dave

[RoughboyModelworks]

The design of that Emporium Seafood structure could only be appreciated by those who haven't been blessed with the gift of sight.

Paul

[finescalerr]

Manufacturers sell tasteless caricatures because tasteless hobbyists buy them. The most important thing I learned when I was in broadcast news is that the lower you set your standards the larger an audience you will attract; eventually it became more than I could live with so I quit. And, after twenty years, my tolerance for decay in the mainstream hobby industry finally is wearing thin. -- Russ

[Frederic Testard]

I must say I feel very proud to belong to a group that's such blessed with the gift of sight, and I fear the day when all the blind people have been cancelled and one has to find new criterions to sort the few survivors... I have seen many places in real life as messy as this wharf. I understand that a whole layout made of messy places is indeed a caricature, and I understand that one has the right not to love caricatures, but I've been feeling more and more uncomfortable for months about the despiteful comments adressed to a vast category of people. I see very well how excellent craftsmen people on this board are, and I am often blast by what they display, but I really cannot understand how the fact of despising others could make these excellent craftsmen better, be it by an epsilon.

[RoughboyModelworks]

Frederic:

You should know by now that by and large, we're a group of opinionated, obstinate and grumpy old men, not that that's a bad thing.  The important point about this forum is we're not afraid to speak our minds honestly about how we feel. Importantly, we also give credit where credit is due, that's an increasingly rare commodity in this age of "political correctness" and "diplomatic doublespeak." Yes, we can be harsh at times, but it is generally for good reason. We don't intentionally offend anyone and if by chance we do, I think you'll find we'll be the first to apologize and own up for doing so. I'd rather have one person here say "there's something not right about this" rather than see a bevy of shallow praise. I think you'll see that there is also a great deal of genuine respect here, though it can be displayed in rather unusual terms at times. Sweeping generalizations are always dangerous and there are always exceptions. Two beliefs I do see as common to at least the active members here are an abhorrence for crass commercialism and shoddy products.     

Paul

[DaKra]

Agreed, Paul.   A forum like this one is outside the comfort zone for many people, I believe that was the point Russ made about the correlation between lowering standards and increasing audiences. 

But I do think the point here is a general unwillingness in this country to really look and think about the subject matter and then treat it with respect of historians and craftsmen.  Instead, the trend is to make a poor joke out of it.   

It is a case of commercialism and sinking standards and that is fair game for criticism.  It is not about who's skills are better than others.  At the end of the day, it takes the same skill and time to glue sticks into something that looks like a place where real people once toiled over the tools and vehicles of their trade, as it does to slavishly copy an elaborate piece of smack-you-in-the-face nonsense.     

My question is about how and why the hobby has trended away from thoughtful work and towards a commercialized false standard typified by the kit in the link I posted.    As usual for this company, the advertisment claims the model is a "typical depiction" of a historic era and location, which is just not true.   

Dave

[finescalerr]

And I want to add a post script: Pointing out flaws or lapses in taste need not necessarily be snobbish or deprecating. Thirty years ago, when I was trying to break into jazz as a professional, a bunch of L.A.'s top musicians did a recording session with me -- for free. Among L.A. musicians, that is a really big deal. But that didn't stop my mentor from announcing I'd hit a clam (wrong note) in one of my solos even though another guy thought the note was fine. They also sometimes criticized the hell out of the way a well known musician played on an album or in a live performance. They were doing the same thing as we do here: Pointing out what is not so good, even by a "big name" jazz guy, so I and others could learn what is good, what is mediocre, and WHY.

That is how I learned. Sometimes one of them would tell me I should learn the melody to a tune. Sometimes somebody would suggest I stop playing a tune until I learned the chord changes. I suppose I could have taken offense and felt bad. Instead I learned the damned tunes better!

That is what this forum is all about. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Russ

[Frederic Testard]

Yes yes yes.

Uncle, I personnally have no real problem with criticism towards my personnal model jobs. Even if I may sometimes not share the point of view of the person who criticizes, I often find something to improve from his or her comment. I even have no problem with criticisms coming from people who have shown skills worse than mine, because the gift of sight and the gift of craftsmanship are quite different, and not being able to make something doesn't mean you can't see the necessity of the thing (it's easy to find music comparisons for this. I'll never play the Rhapsody in Blue but can hear a clam in it...).
You'll note that there's a whole group of good modellers who simply will answer any criticism from someone they consider less good than them : "Show me first what you do", and will never accept - or very reluctantly - what I said above. To which I don't belong : I can take the heat, even if it comes from a bad cook.

But this is not the point I wanted to make here. Maybe the lack of precision of my English doesn't help me write the things exactly how I think them. What I can hardly understand is how a full category of people could be so despisable as model railroaders seem to be when one reads a number of posts here. I think that, at least, a bit of literary nuance could be used, and that using it would not make the people who speak worse modellers. To answer more specifically Paul's comment about "political correctness" and "diplomatic doublespeak", I have recently noticed a trend among an increasing number of people towards "political uncorrectness" and "undiplomatic simplespeak". I find this trend as inadequate as the first one, and observed that it is generally a rhetorical comfort used by people who want to put their contacts into difficulty, most of the time without opening any space for dialog and argumentation. What do you think model railroaders will want to share when they read the comments mentioned above, if moreover they are afraid to be answered the dreaded "show me first what you do" they certainly have heard before?

[jacq01]

 
Frederic,

What I can hardly understand is how a full category of people could be so despisable as model railroaders seem to be when one reads a number of posts here. I think that, at least, a bit of literary nuance could be used, and that using it would not make the people who speak worse modellers.

you are aware of the fact that some 2 years ago I started on the RR forum in search fro information on sawmills and logging operations.
The comments and reactions from so called experts on the very good, valuable and correct advise I received,  was such that I decided not to post there anymore. It was the start of my participatin here.

When you mentioned Kirks Troels work, I visited the forum again for the first time...... Lovely details, good craftsmanship, nice atmosphere but suffering from the general trends of cramping too much into a too litte space, taking away the effect each individual scene can have. Hardly or no natural transitions.

Re the detoriation of values and standards, there was a newsflash today, here on TV,  regarding the steps the teaching staff at Harvard is taking against the pranks and stupidities done by students during lectures.
It all has to do with respect and certain standards.......even in modelrailroading. When at university I was openly confronted with my mistakes and I learned the value of direct critism. But also to defend my views and to discuss differences. There is a saying in Holland " Soft doctors leave stinking wounds"

The best is to leave opinions ventilated here within the constrictions of this forum, here they are understood within the context.  If ventilated  on other forums, they will not be understood as they are based on completely different philosophies...

Jacq

[DaKra]

Its just human nature to want praise and be defensive about criticism.   It is a problem when people with a low threshold for criticism are permitted to set the limits for acceptable discussion.  Jacq is right.  That form of political correctness is part of how standards are lowered everywhere and how commercial manufacturers such as Wonderbread have been able to create and maintain a false perception that their crappy products are high quality, high nutrition, wholesome or "accurate depictions."   

Dave

[David King]

I think I understand what you are trying to say Frederic, and to some extent I agree.  The people in this forum have a different kind of goal in mind with their modeling than the typical model railroader, but I don't understand why all those model railroader's that aren't interested in doing the type of modeling promoted here should be so harshly denigrated as a group.  So what if someone prefers the caricature style of modeling?  It's their money, their time, their model railroad.  Just because we don't like it doesn't mean it doesn't have some value to him.  I'm sure to that type of modeler we look kinda silly too, spending so much time on a single model and being so preoccupied about technical accuracy in something they view largely as an adult toy.  It's all about what each individual wants to get out of the hobby. Different strokes for different folks as they say.

I think the values we share in this forum can be promoted without being so negative toward those that are interested in a different kind of modeling.

David

[finescalerr]

Frederic, your English is easily good enough to explain what you mean. (Frankly, I am amazed you can communicate so well. Moreover I respect your intelligence and your opinions.)

I guess sometimes we, including I, sound too harsh or too critical or too broad in scope when we launch into a tirade. I doubt any of us would write with such fire on another website or for print. But, on this website, we are talking to our peers. Sometimes we may speak too strongly. If so, it usually is out of frustration.

David King makes the point that people have different goals and preferences and perceptions: I could not agree more. And I have put my money where my mouth is. When I published Outdoor Railroader and Finescale Railroader I would print photos of models by every reader, whether the model was good or horrible. I did that not just because I agree with David's philosophy but because I want to encourage everyone interested in hobbies, crafts, and the arts.

I usually reserve my criticism for those in business. Dave (DaKra) began that jab at business with his condemnation of "caricature kits". I agreed. That is because I hold business to a higher standard than the consumer. Even though I realize it is idealistic, I would have business lead by example, not cater to an ever lower demographic with the hope of making more money. The steep decline in our culture, education, politics, and business ethics is a direct result of the attitude of catering down.

By contrast, higher standards in several fields generally were maintained from the 1920s through the 1950s, an era almost everyone would acknowledge as the Golden Age of American culture.

If you grow up on a diet of Spam, prime rib will taste bad. Somebody must assume the responsibility to show the difference between quality and crap and, if possible, to influence business to produce quality. If not, literature descends into decadent gibberish, music trades melody for gangster rap, education is reduced to socialization and indoctrination, and hobbies become laughable.

Russ

[jacq01]

  David,

 it is not a matter of being denigrating, I do not look down on work of others, it is their effort. In that respect Frederic is putting the group
 in a certain perspective..........................If I am denigrating it is against the lack of realism.

 Again :
 

The best is to leave opinions ventilated here within the constrictions of this forum, here they are understood within the context.  If ventilated on other forums, they will not be understood as they are based on completely different philosophies...

 Jacq



 

[marc_reusser]

I agree that we often paint with a broad and what may be somewhat denigrating  brush.....but...and this does not justify it...... look at how much of the "other side" paints those that have shall we say more "focus and commitment" to detailed modeling......they are no better....on the RRL Forums for example, out of the tens of thousands of "atta-boy" posts, there are probably a mere handful of honest critiques and criticisms.....and should you happen to mention something that is completely valid...even in the most constructive way....there is a huge contingent that flames out, runs to the defense of the modeler, an starts to cry "it's a hobby...bla, bla, bala..", "We're in this to have fun....bla, bla, bla,"...."You're being nit-picky, and rivet counting...bla, bla, bla".....not only online mind you....but also via PM.  And they are mild compared to the "No Stinking Standards", and "We are Funner", and "I'ts my hobby" rants that you encounter in places like the ON30 Conspiracy.

None of us here is mean spirited,....we just tend to be a bit more brash and harsh in our commentary.....I cannot think of a single vocal and opinionated member here that would not offer his time, help, advice and research, if he were asked, or can ( I am talking about REAL in depth help and information...with some weight behind it...not just rehashed and watered down stuff)  That is truly more than I can say for the other forums I used to belong to.

Lastly....if you are concerned about political correctness or about our opinions being somewhat harsh....at least we are honest and open about them, and we receive as good as we get.......unlike and I speak from experience here, a place like the RRL Forum......The last straw that caused me to leave that forum was because two religious nut jobs complained to the administrators that my avatar was "offensive to their beliefs"....so the moderators simply took it down.....what was my avatar....a photo of a cartoonish looking Bobble-head devil doll in a tuxedo......and all the while allowing people to use avatars where peoples heads are getting shot-off, or that are pointing a gun at you, or that have Christ's cross in them.........talk about hypocrites, intolerance...and political incorrectness.

Like my tag line once said..."I would rather be hated for who I am, than liked for who I am not."  I would also much rather be amongst agroup of people that let me know where I stand and where I fall short, than one that says nothing but "good job", which gives me no guidance, motivation, inspiration or cause to evaluate my work/process/approach.

I learned long ago that any work or models you produce are just a "thing"...yes, you can be proud of them, happy or unhappy about them.....but they are not your life, or who you are....even if you put your heart and soul into them....in the end they are just objects.


Marc

[David King]

Even though I realize it is idealistic, I would have business lead by example, not cater to an ever lower demographic with the hope of making more money.

Yes that is very idealistic, but we do need some idealists in the world.   I'm sure it's a fine line and a tough decision for many business owners wether to go after more market share by compromising your ideals or hold fast to those ideals at the risk of failure in the business world.  Obviously you've held to the latter Russ, and we thank you for it, I just hope by some miracle it works out for you in the end.  

I lament the decline in culture as well.  There are far more hobby "artists" attempting to emulate Bob Ross than there are of those attempting to emulate Asher B. Durand, but maybe that's not such a bad thing?  If excellence were prevalent would it seem so excellent? Those of us on this forum appreciate and attempt to work at the very pinnacle of quality modeling, but that pinnacle is the very tip of a short pyramid with a very wide base. However, that makes the work of master modelers such as Chuck Doan all that more impressive.  

I beleive it's far more effective to preach the positive than the negative.  You are doing that with the publication of the Finescale annuals.  I always take the Modeler's Annual to my local model car club meetings and pass it around.  While most of the info in the Modeler's Annual relates very little to the interests of those in my club, they all appreciate the level of talent and skill demonstrated by those articles.  Showing what can be done with modeling, the best of the best and highlighting that and explaining how it's done to as many people as possible is the most effective way to market this ideal.  If someone sees what is possible yet is not interested, well that's their decision.  On the opposite side, if other types and levels of modeling are belittled by us, then we might get viewed as elitist snobs and possibly turn off someone that may have otherwise been interested.  I'm sure many modelers we never know about view this website, many of whom that get lumped into the "caricature" modeling genre, and if they see us just bashing their style of modeling they may automatically just tune us out rather than staying and perusing and learning and possibly some day even be inspired to give it a shot.

Now, I'm not saying that there really is all that much real "bashing" of other modeling styles going on here but many comments made here could be construed as such by the uninformed.  Remember, this is the internet, there's no telling who exactly is reading what you post in any forum.

David