Work in progress: Westinghouse boxcab electric

[steammodeler]

Hauk,
Your modeling of the Westinghouse boxcab is outstanding! Many modelers shy away from taking on multi process projects using several different techniques or materials. Brass scratch building from the ground up is very time consuming, and from my humble modeling experiences takes a lot of trial and effort in many cases to make just one part at a time. As you mentioned you have been working on this project for several years; I often think that I'm the only one that it takes several years to build a project!
The replys to your thread are very notable in the fact that often many modelers tend to rank their own modeling success only by the number of views, or replys to their internet postings. (I'm kinda aiming this at John's replys)
I don't believe that is a good "gauge" of any modeler. Often when we see modeling like your boxcab, or Marc's masterpieces, Chuck Dones modeling among other fine modelers, I'm not sure that we don't hesitate to reply because we simply feel that we are not on that level. The masters and beginners alike in our hobby that share their experiences, good, bad, triumphs, or failures, encourage all of us to do better and try new ways of modeling.
Case in point: I wanted to bring my modeling to a more confident point, but felt limited by off the shelf parts, or basic scratch building techniques. The only way I could get fine brass parts was to make them myself. (Here comes the thread hijacking) I had to learn photoetching myself and not have to rely on more costly and time consuming out-sourcing. After more than a year of internet how to research I'm able to produce most, not all, of the parts I need for my projects.
Using a simple process called "toner transfer" photo etching with pretty good results is possible by just about any member on this site. Without taking over your excellent Boxcab thread, let's look at the basic process. As you mentioned; a graphic program is needed, I use coreldraw, as it is one of my own industry standard off the shelf graphic programs. A pretty good resolution 1200 DPI or better laser printer, an iron, ferric chloride(the acid), a submersible aquarium heater, and a chemical resistant "bucket" or container for the acid, and some cheap gloss photopaper. With the exception of the graphic program, these materials can be found and purchased for under $100 US about anywhere in the world. There are of course going to be other acids, films, and processes available, but this is a good entry into photoetching.
Design your part using the graphic program, reverse the art, and print it out on the photopaper in the highest resolution possible for your printer. Prepair a piece of brass sheet, no thicker than .005 to start, (I'm etching .016 now for my McKeen motorcar bodies) Clean the brass sheet with the finest steel wool available, removing any gloss from the sheet. Wipe clean using a non petro based solvent; I use acetone. Do not touch brass with fingers, as oils in fingers will not allow good toner transfer. With the iron on it's high setting, toner side of art toward the brass, carefully iron the art to the cleaned brass sheet. Apply even hard pressure, but don't slide the iron around as it will smear the toner on the brass. With the photopaper now stuck to the brass, emerse in warm water with a bit of dishwashing liquid and soak until the photo paper can be pulled away from the brass. This takes some doing as it comes off in layers. If the transfer was well done it can be scrubed with a nylon brush with no damage to the image. Once clean and dry, the brass can then be put into the heated acid "tank" and etching takes only a few minutes. I have posted this method in perhapes a little more detail on a couple other modeling sites, including my own Tracksidemodeler.com but wish to encourage modelers to expand their own abilities so we can all add to our own for better and better results in our hobby.
Hauk, I'm only trying to add to your quote,"So if anyone have tips & tricks on soldering, machining in brass or any other related subject, get in the thread! Feel free to hijack the thread" I hope this brief info is helpful to other modelers and thank everyone here for the "soapbox" to add.
Here's a couple of quick photos to show it is possible to do this at home.
The art on photopaper of the parts I needed:

The home etched parts:

Some other parts I needed:

The toner transfer before etching:

The end result, a working HOn3 wood side dump car:


James

[Ray Dunakin]

Great tip, James, and a beautiful model!

[Chuck Doan]

Excellent info, and a wonderful model indeed! I would be afraid I'd squish it trying to operate it.

[Hauk]

Case in point: I wanted to bring my modeling to a more confident point, but felt limited by off the shelf parts, or basic scratch building techniques. The only way I could get fine brass parts was to make them myself. (Here comes the thread hijacking) I had to learn photoetching myself and not have to rely on more costly and time consuming out-sourcing.

A very interesting post
It´s a notch up on the craftsman scale to do the actual etching yourself!

I chose to outsource the actual etching job for several reasons.
I feel that two-sided etching of parts with large half-etched areas (lots of relief detail) is pretty ambitous even for very dedicated home etchers.
Some of the parts I etch are so small that they require perfect indexing of the two photograpic films. I dont have a good enough printer for this kind of originals, so I would have to use a pre-press company even if I was to do the etchings myself. The graphic films are the most expensive part of the whole process, a set of films cost around USD 150. The actual etched sheet of brass costs around USD 50. 

Even the extremly skilled etchers I use have problems with some of my parts. But these people take pride in their work, so they do the work over again with no questions asked and at no extra cost. I can not give Chempix enough praise, and I really reccomend their services.

In these images you can see some of the variations even a company like Chempix has to deal with:

In the first image you can see that the parts are slightly overetched (holes too large):



Chempix agreed that the parts in the  first picture was not up to their standards, so they did another sheet:



Remember that these parts are around 3,5X3,5 mm (0,12" X 0,12").

And just to show how small you can go:


But this does not mean that I am not mighty impressedwith what you have achived by etching in your home workshop!

[marc_reusser]

Havard:

For such a short and simple question, you packed a lot in there that needs to be addressed/considered.....so my answer is going to somewhat long and rambling, disjointed....and end up being ambiguous in some aspects.......I will post this in multiple parts so it is easier to read through and address any questions/comments an input by everyone.

First off, as to what paint to use:

Taking into consideration the EU laws/requirements, your choices are probably limited to acrylics, and the Humbrol oil paints. (not sure if Revell makes oils...but from what I have read and seen on European forums) I would stay away from any Revell paint....and I do not know if you guys can get Model Master oils.

I also assume that since this is an operating model it will get a bit of handling. Now as you know, I generally don't do metal/brass models......but given past painting experience, if at all possible, I would suggest a good lacquer or oil based type primer....something that will really bond to the brass and cure well.....this really needs to hold, as everything else that follows will bond to it. Then for the paint itself.....assuming the handling, of the loco, you will most likely have some kind of varnish...likely satin that will be the final...or almost final coat (this will come up again in the weathering  part).....so now comes the question of how you want to approach the painting, and what steps/techniques you want to go through and include.

A brief side note here as to process....if your base colors are acrylic, you can use artists oil based filters and washes directly over them with no problem (though some models still put a clear satin acrylic coat over them for control/personal choice purposes).....if your base colors are oils, you will definitely need apply a clear satin acrylic coat over them, so as to protect them from being attacked by the turpentine/white-spirits...........this may influence your choice in what paints to use.

Now....personally I really like the Tamiya paints...despite their limited colors.....but I do not know how they would hold up to a lot of handling, even after being sealed with a clear coat....one would assume they should be fine....but having no experience with touching models repeatedly, I can't say. Just by their nature the Humbrols should hold up well......but despite their wide color range, ...I am not a big fan of working with them....I find them OK for small brushwork details and weathering...but have never really gotten the hang of them for airbrushing larger areas....some people really like them and do well with them...but not me....maybe it has to do with their drying/curing time and my impatience to keep going...I also have not been able to get a good feel/fit for the thinning ratio....but those are my problems.

The Vallejos are really beautiful paints....but....they are not the easiest to work with in an airbrush, and take some practice and getting used to get the right mix [I now generally thin about 50-paint to 50-thinning material....... the thinning material consists of a mix of their "thinner" (which is basically the un-tinted base] and distilled water. I mix the thinner and water together first....then add this to the paint, and mix well.].....the concern I have with using the Vallejos is that they are IMO a somewhat delicate/fine paint (insofar as the surface finish and the look/feel).....they are great for figures and static models and such...but without trying it, I personally would have concern on a model that is handled..especially in the same areas.....of course this might be alleviated/mitigated and made inconsequential by the clear coat.

If you don't want to deal with trying to mix the right ratio for airbrushing with the Vallejo "Model Color" line....they do make a line called "Model Air" that is pre-thinned and meant specifically for airbrushing....though they don't have all the colors avail in this line. I prefer the control of mixing my own (and I rarely use a color as it comes in the bottle anyway)...but give both a try and see what you like.

What I really like about the Tamiya and the Vallejo,(when applied properly) is that they dry real "tight" to the surface and allow the small details to show well and clearly.


M

[Hauk]

When I built the pilot plates for the engine I used cosmetic hex bolts and nuts.
Since then I learned that www.scalehardware.com offers *working* nuts and bolts with a key width of 0,8mm (0,03"). I just had to get me some of those, so I ordered some bags even if I had no immidiate use for them. Just to try them out I mounted a couple of parts on a pilot plate:



And boy, do I wish I had discovered these babies some years earlier!
Its just so more neat and convenient to actually bolt everything together rather than covering the delicaties with blobs of solder.... With the Miniature socket wrenches from SH, assembling is just plain fun!



OK, so this is a shameless plug for SH. But they offer some great products, and the service is top notch. I am totally dependent on small businesses like SH for my modelling needs, and if more people know about them, the longer they will probably be in business!

Exit commercial, back to the regular program.

I dont know if it was a blessing or a curse in disguise, but the further I got along with this project, the more I realised that 0-scale is the practical minimum size for a *lot* of hardware and details that I wanted to include on the model. These bolts are a good example. I think they are probably the smallest size you could make a working nut/bolt and I would not even want to try to handle a smaller bolt even if it was available. As covered in an earlier post, many of the etched parts are bordering on the imossible small.

Before choosing 0-scale, I did seriously consider building models in S-scale using H0 wheels and mechanisms. Exact meter gauge is 15,6mm in  Sm, so H0 gauge is around 10% too wide. But I am glad I didnt go this route, because even if there is a lot of H0 stuff out there, you would always end up compromising.

I have choosen a pretty unusual prototype, but a lot of he equipment is preserved on the museum railroad (located just a 50 minutes drive from where I live, and some of the work on the mechanism was actually done in the shops of the full scale railroad!), and I have a lot of drawings and documentation available.   I also knew that some of the people most interested in my models would be very familiar with the prototype. So what I am aiming at is museum quality, no less. Maybe a bit ambitious, but why not?

This is something I have realised along the way, and I think I would have been very frustrated if I had invested a lot of time and money in the wrong scale for achichiving my goals. But thinking about it, It could have been pretty nice to have the model in 1/32 scale!

Regards, Håvard H

[Hauk]

Havard:

For such a short and simple question, you packed a lot in there that needs to be addressed/considered.....so my answer is going to somewhat long and rambling, disjointed....and end up being ambiguous in some aspects.......I will post this in multiple parts so it is easier to read through and address any questions/comments an input by everyone.

Yes, its almost absurd to phrase the question as broad as I did. But I am happy to see that you took the bait!
Regarding choosing paint, I think I am leaning towards Humbrol, Tamiya or even cellulose car paint.

I have good friends that restore cars professianlly, and they have access to old fashioned cellulose based car paint. A lot of very talented english custom painters svear by the stuff, and I would like to do some tests at least.

Primer is a big topic in itself. As I said, I have tried Tamiya fine surface primer, and it seems to work fine. I also tried to bake it for some hours at around 100 deg. C, and that seemed to harden it a bit. Maybe I should try some of the etchprimers that many people reccomend, but that stuff is said to be quite nasty, and it is not easy to get hold of here in Norway. Availablity is quite important.

What I really have to do is make some test work. I have a lot of semi-useless bodyparts for the engine from early test etches, and they could be put to good use this way.

A tip I would like to test is one that British painter & weathering expert Martyn Wylch offered. He often blackens brass models before painting, so that if the model get a scratch or the pain chips, at least the "wound" will be black or brownish rather than gleaming brass. But from my experiance, blackening potions often leaves a residue that can be wiped off. I have read that to avoid this, you could try diluthing the blackening with distilled water.  Again, testing has to be done.

Regards, Håvard H

[lab-dad]

Havard,
I have found that "blasting" the brass provides excellent paint adhesion.
I have used baking soda with good results and other fine mediums designed for the task as well.
I have even used sand on more durable models.

There is a tool called an air eraser that looks like an airbrush designed just for this task.
When I finally finish the Corliss I will used the baking soda to prep it for paint.

Also I have found the Vajello paint very delicate.

-Marty

[Chuck Doan]

I have had problems with brass wire and shim stock after blackening. It often "sweats" even if I rinse it well. Sometimes takes days to show up.

[John McGuyer]

I am totally blown away by the photo-etching. Bob (Uniack) and I have been discussing doing it for some time to do a variety of parts, but I have chickened out (read candy-ass) for two reasons. The first goes back 30 years when I was a factory racer running RC cars. I etched my own circuit boards and they were awful. We didn't have all that wonderful stuff like computer programs and ink-jet printers. The etching material also etched everything in the shop. The other is a friend who is a far better modeler than I am and is getting some done. He has been telling me to go have it done and do not try yourself. Well, it appears you are doing sensationally well on your own. I for one would love to see a longer thread step by step of you making those parts. I'll even leave comments.

John

[RoughboyModelworks]

John and Hauk:

That's fantastic etching work you guys. There's an English firm I worked with about ten years ago or so (and for the moment I can't remember their name, but I'll dig it up out of the archive. They tell me the memory is the second thing to go!) that specialized in photo-etching. What impressed me about them was their ability at the time to produce multi-layer etching. They could etch only part way through the brass to produce reliefs, raised edges and so on. Their work was incredibly crisp and clean. I'll dig through the archive and see if I can come up with a name or reference.

Hauk: another company for miniature fasteners is http://www.jimorrisco.com/. They produce metric fasteners down to 0.50 UNM and 0000-160. They produce an excellent product but are very expensive especially in the smallest sizes.

Preblackening brass prior to painting is a good tip, but sweating can be a problem. I found with fastidious cleaning and prepping before blackening (I dipped parts in an acid etch bath first) the sweating would be minimized. As far as paints are concerned I always use automotive lacquers for the primary coats and follow up with enamels for weathering. I've never had much luck with acrylics, but that's probably just me. I create wash effects with the enamels using enamel thinners over the lacquers without risking damage to the lacquer finish below. Also makes it easy to clean up mistakes such as when your airbrush burps blobs of enamel all over the place...

Paul

[marc_reusser]

James,

Great SBS info on the PE. Thanks for posting, I too for one would be really interested learning more about doing at home, and working with ordering PE parts.........I have so many projects where I could use this....but like JOhn, basically been a chichen about persuing it.
One of my own neurotic concerns is figuring out all the of parts I need for all the diapsrate ongoing models...drawing them, sending them out, and then realizing I forgot some [:-Banghead

M

[marc_reusser]

Havard

Ok....back to painting.....

Having worked for years with automotive lacquers, I am a big fan of them....at least for full sized stuff....I have never used them for small scale models....I have some concerns about pigment size, and how tight they lay down on the surface around details (though a local professional loco painter, Jerry Spoelma, here in town gets some beautiful results with them).  I guess it depends on how fine the specific pigments are in the given lacquer, how thin you apply the layers, and how well your airbrush atomizes.  The same concern is realistic with acrylics as well (and there are a lot of cheaper non scale-hobby specific acrylics that are really mediocre or crap for fine workmanship)....it's just that I have more experience working with the acrylics on scale models.  I think the paint type is definitely something you should experiment and play around with. Whatever paint you choose keep in mind the painting approach(es) you plan to take/use, CM (Color Modulation), Fading, Pre-shading,  Scale Effect, etc.....these often will require smooth and subtle color or shade transitions, so the paint does need to atomize very fine, so that the blend is not blatantly visible.

I have my druthers about the blackening, for the reasons mentioned, and from personal experience dealing with paint coming loose more easily over blackened brass parts.

Surface Textures:

One thing you may want to consider as part of the painting process, and to add more depth/texture/detail to the finished model, is some "casting texture".  When looking at the prototype, do any of the surfaces have a fine sand or casting texture, if so you may want to add this using either the putty or Mr Surfacer method, or using the dry-spraying method.....you can also do this with sandblasting, but the chance there for losing detail is great. The nice thing about the first three methods, is that you can come back in with some sandpaper and smooth out the surfaces/edges/details that were then machined smooth on the cast parts during manufacturing.  Small details like this will help with weathering as well.

What were you thinking for loco color and condition?

While thinking about this process I have been assuming  that this loco is to be represented as an in-service engine that is maybe 10 years old, but has seen regular maintenance and care. There will be some fading of the paint in some areas, maybe a few areas of rain streaks, some grime/grease and dirt in the nooks and crannies and around the running gear; and maybe a few very small spots of oxidation round edges that get banged or wear, a bolt or two, and in nook or corner where water collects and get trapped......but all in a l fairly good condition and cared for loco.

I am also assuming  that the loco color will be something along the typical European lines.....a dark green, blue or brown...possibly a black, grey or red?

Next, the pro's and cons of the different techniques and approaches.......


M

[Hauk]

Havard

Ok....back to painting.....

Surface Textures:

One thing you may want to consider as part of the painting process, and to add more depth/texture/detail to the finished model, is some "casting texture".  When looking at the prototype, do any of the surfaces have a fine sand or casting texture, if so you may want to add this using either the putty or Mr Surfacer method, or using the dry-spraying method.....you can also do this with sandblasting, but the chance there for losing detail is great. The nice thing about the first three methods, is that you can come back in with some sandpaper and smooth out the surfaces/edges/details that were then machined smooth on the cast parts during manufacturing.  Small details like this will help with weathering as well.

What were you thinking for loco color and condition?

While thinking about this process I have been assuming  that this loco is to be represented as an in-service engine that is maybe 10 years old, but has seen regular maintenance and care. There will be some fading of the paint in some areas, maybe a few areas of rain streaks, some grime/grease and dirt in the nooks and crannies and around the running gear; and maybe a few very small spots of oxidation round edges that get banged or wear, a bolt or two, and in nook or corner where water collects and get trapped......but all in a l fairly good condition and cared for loco.

I am also assuming  that the loco color will be something along the typical European lines.....a dark green, blue or brown...possibly a black, grey or red?

The model is planned to represent the engine as it was after around 25 years of service (that would be around 1935).  I have seen no color pictures from the period, but from the BW pictures I have seen the engines are pretty gritty, with very noticeble rain stains and possible rust stains. 

The full size engines were bought for mainline use, but their pulling power were pathetic. Even the wooden passenger motorcars were far stronger. The three engines of this type were soon transfered into helper service, and after the Thamshavnbanen railroad bought new, stronger mainline engines (my next modelling project!) in 1917, they were sentenced to switcher service.

So think well-used switcher when it comes to the paintjob. But It should absolutely be a working engine, by no means an rip-track candidate! One should also remember that it ran on an electric railway, no soot and smoke from steam engines around. The railway transported copper ore, so the weathering should probably suggest this.

The paint scheme can be seen on this restored engine:


Its a lousy image, I know, and the blue on this restored engine is far too dark. An engine in 1935 would be a very faded and streaked blue. The red would also be somewhat faded, me thinks.

The trucks and underframe should be a very dark shade of grey, so that the details do not disappear under indoor lighting.

When it comes to surface textures, the only cast parts are the journal boxes, couplers and wheel centers. As these are brass castings, the already has a pretty ok surface texture.

The rest of the engine is mode out of steel plate.

Regarding the paintjob, I have studied very closely your thread on painting an small engine using the modulation techniques developed by military modellers. Was that project ever finished, by the way?

[Gordon Ferguson]

Hauk,

this is inspirational work - and one we can all learn from, look forward to seeing how it develops

but!

"Regarding the paintjob, I have studied very closely your thread on painting an small engine using the modulation techniques developed by military modellers. Was that project ever finished, by the way?"

I would never ask Marc that question