Jacq's Logging Project Discussion

[jacq01]

 
  Pat,

  there are a couple of photo's in Polkinghorns book Pino Grande, in the Finescale Railroader logging, mining and industrial special(s) about the Pino Grande by Mallory Hope Farrell, the photo archive's of the Washington State Uni. and photo's found while searching the web.
  Clear evidence is hard to findt and as have been pointed out, each mill followed it's own rules in building and because of all the machinery seating, dirt and sawdust it is difficult to distinguish board ends. In case of the McLean mill in Alberny the planks are laid across the structure.
For some drawings http://bcheritage.ca/drawings/sites/site3/site3.html
I have a large number of photo's of this mill from the web, but I cannot find back the URL.

Looking at the kind and directions of loads applied to the structure, especially in way of the logdeck with the logturners, the 2" planks do not add much strength.  A 16'0" long and 6'0" dia log of approx 10 tonnes rolling down a 12° slope is generating a heavy loading on the rollway and turners square to the direction of the planks.

On another topic of the planking. The photo's investigated, are not clear in the nailing of the planks. Are they nailed at every joist or only at the ends and in the middle of the length ?  Plank length 12'0" with a joist spacing of 2'0".


Jacq

[marc_reusser]

Jaqc,

In US wood frame constuction of the period, board were as a rule generally staggered. It is no more difficult to replace a board in a staggered plank format than an un-staggard.....you still have to measure and cut/trim, regardless.

Staggered planking does actually help in two ways. It does assist a slight amount with lateral shear (the idea is to create a form/type of shear panel/plane) and it also helps by not placing all the end loading of a plank in a single joist (by staggering them, the non spliced joist offers a bit more resistance  to excessive deformation of the joist....hard to explaind without a diagram....but it does help)...also, by staggering the planks, you are not stressing and weakening the joist in the same manner as one that has two carry all thends....because with the ends, comes twice the amount of nailing (2+ nails from each board end) from the boards into the joist.....where-as in a staggerd formation, the through joist has just one set/pair of nails....this not perforforating a single joist quite as much. If one were to do non staggered framing, it would be best to either use a wider joist, or double-up the joist inder the seam.

....however, there was probably an exception to everything.

In US wood frame construction, (regardles of how you are doing your board layout), the boards are nailed into each and every joist.


Marc

PS. I know I have several e-mails to get back to you on....sorry about the delay...just a lot going on. Also want to talk to you about the mill boilers before you start on them, I have an idea re the parts & details for them that may help you.

[Belg]

Jacq, I could never have said it any more eloquently then our friend Marc has. Again please don't take my comments as a negative critique it just seemed that for someone like yourself that does so much research it would be strange to not follow period construction methods. I did a Google search for sawmill interiors and found very little in the way of a clear shot of any floor, all old B/W pics and so much dirt, sawdust, chips, I'm not sure there was even a floor under there. I will continue to watch your progress and enjoy the patient research you do. I'm adding this link just because I found it to be very nice lot of pictures, http://flickr.com/photos/upshift/2477623992/in/set-72157604560161098/

Have you or anyone else found any good referance shots of the big wheel lumber carts? I had posted a question a couple of years back and really still don't understand how they were loaded or worked. Thanks Pat

[chester]

Pat, thanks for those photos.
I think that spacing of joints and nailing of the floor boards to the joist had a lot more to do with the random lengths used for the flooring rather than anything structural. Having lived in a town surrounded by 7 sawmills, I noticed that for their own uses, they exercised frugality and tended to use lesser quality lumber for their own wood construction. Saving the longer lengths and premium lumber for sale. Frankly in my observations, most of the pits were on solid ground and had the machinery mounted on individual concrete pads just big enough for the machine. Of course my experience doesn't go back that far in time and is limited to northern New England.

[jacq01]

   Thanks for all comments,  staggering board ends is a standard practice in Europe too.

   I am familiar with it from te laminated structure in a number of yachts I designed and built.  3mm thick strips
   first diagonally 45° than 45° in the other direction, than parallel to the framing and finally parallel to the waterline.
   
The choice to line up the board ends as I did was based on some vague photo's, the 12" wide joists at 12'0" spacing and remarks in the book Lumber about replacements in the logdeck area due to moisture and wear.
more probably my glasses were dirty when scrutinizing old photo's on screen 
 

....however, there was probably an exception to everything.

Thanks 

I doubt if there will be much visible of the board ends and their positions when all machinery, dirt, bark rests, sawdust, etc. will be in place.

As I have run out of scale lumber and have to wait for the arrival of a shipment, I am preparing the next actions.
I have not received all material to start casting the live rolls, hopefully next week.
In the meantime I worked out the functioning of the simonson logturner and have started in brass and styrene
with the arms, bearings and cilinders.


 

Here a 1:48 cross section showing the top of the 3 different arms and canting hook together with arms and cilinder in open and closed positions to determine strokes and cilinder lengths.  A planview is in the making.

Marc,   I'll soon post the module drawing with mill and associated buildings , incl boiler- and power house.
 

Jacq

[marc_reusser]

In western mills ...especially of this size, they seemed to use prety good quality lumber. There was the feeling that the wood supply was endlesss. There were even millions of top grade pure clear lumber used (wasted) in building even the trestles and flumes for these operations. The photos of the Hume Bennet mill under construction show a very high quality and standard of construction. Companies like HB for example  even used perfect logs for their skid roads and cribbing....note also the nice quality of lumber used in the shacks in the background.



A contractor friend of mine at on time purchase very large and long 12x12, 16x24 & even some 30" deep timbers that were salvaged from an old abandoned sawmill (they were part of the building) in Northern California.....they were perfectly clear, and still straight and true, after all these years.

Marc

[shropshire lad]

What did he do with them , Marc ? Turn them into 4x2s ? I hope not , because I guess they would have been nicely seasoned by then .

  Nick

[danpickard]

Jacq,
Nice seeing the progress on this build.  I'm afraid I'm with some of the others that the boards would probably look better staggered.  Even if there was a propotype practice of doing it like you started out doing, it doesn't seem to have been overly common, and hence it just doesn't look right to the eye.  Pat, the link to those abandoned sawmill shots were pretty cool, nice colours, details etc...unusual to find something unoccupied for so long, yet still so "clean" looking and almost maintained.  There were a few shots of repaired floor sections in amongst them, so Jacq, your floor isn't entirely incorrect.  Marc, thats a decent crib bridge, especially when you get the idea of proportion with the couple of guys with their horses in the bottom left of shot.  I always like to see shots like this, that could make potential excellent diorama pieces.  Not so much for the actual subject, but more to have the original pic on hand so that when people comment on the likes of "but they wouldn't really build a bridge with logs that big", you can prove then wrong.  See Jacq, prototype for everything...

Dan

[marc_reusser]

What did he do with them , Marc ? Turn them into 4x2s ? I hope not , because I guess they would have been nicely seasoned by then .

  Nick

Na, he's a nutty Swiss trained Master Carpenter.....he went and used them to do a timber frame house (I think he was having an Amish moment)...all mortised & tennoned fastened with wood pegs (no nails)....I guess just like a I an equally nutty Englishman I seem to know.    .


Marc

[jacq01]

   
    Following sketches show the arrangement of machinery and drive points.
   
   

   The sawdust conveyor set up at ground level
   

   I think that seen the required power to drive all these items, 2-3 drivelines are necessary.
   The headrig , first row of live rolls, 1-2 transfer tables and slashersaw  drive 1
   Loghaul, resaw, live rolls around resaw and transfer table                   drive 2
   Edger, live rolls cut off saw and sawdust conveyors                          drive 3
   This means 2-3 steam engines or Corliss engines ? 

   The machinery arrangement is. according to info I gathered, a standard set up. Only I do not know the position of cut-off saw and slasher saws.

  The question on the number of drivelines is based on power requirements of machinery as given in the book Lumber and the amount of power to be transmitted to the differen users. I have a nice old handbook on the theory of beltdrives. 
  Any help to work out a correct driveline system, waste conveyor layout and requirements for power house is very much appreciated.  This enables me to lay out the groundfloor with bearings, seats and steamlines.

  Despite the bleak prospects, all a rewarding and healthy 2009.

  Jacq

 

 

[jacq01]

    Here one of the photo's with non staggered boards :

   
     Hull-Oakes mill (photo from HABS-HAER)

    Secondly, a very interesting historical overview of logging in northern california.

    http://www.trainweb.org/foothill/logging.pdf

    Jacq

   

[jacq01]

   Here the set up of the first module with the sawmill and associated buildings.

   


   

   

   Jacq

[danpickard]

Jaqc,
Nice composition with the artist impression views, and I like the use of the angles on the layout.  Leaves lots of guiding lines for the eye to follow. The scene also has a good sense of ballance, with the busy mill at the end, bit of "tranquility" with the floating logs waiting in the middle pond, and then the managers house? overseeing operations from the opposite bank. The end view into module 1 will make for an interesting examination into the workings of a sawmill too, especially to the general public if this is shown at exhibition.  Nice framing proportions too with the use of the valance (I gather this is like a boxed in diorama style presentation).  Please continue...

Dan
PS nice old Hull-Oakes image too, good find.

[marc_reusser]

Jaqc,

I agree with Dan's comments.


BTW...I found the images below on the web, and thought they might be of interest/use.


Marc

[jacq01]

  I am picking up the PUR foam boards which will form the base of the mill module today, pending on what the weather will be after a night of relative heavy snow, with all it's travel consequences.

  Marc,  sorry to read of your furry friend.
 

Also want to talk to you about the mill boilers before you start on them, I have an idea re the parts & details for them that may help you.

Please send a mail with detail / suggestions. Is the Western Scale horizontal boiler a suitable model?
  Pipe fittings are also offered by WS, you mentioned Grandtline. What do you recommend as I don't want to make my own. The first batch cast rolls did not come out satisfactory, only 2 were fully cast the rest was had too many imperfections, air and not fully filled cavity.

  The boiler- and power house visible on the mill and dam photo of the Hume-Bennett appear to be concrete constructions. Is my observation correct?

  Dan,
  the artist impression shows 2 of the 4 modules/segments of the layout. As you remarked, the set up offers a lot of viewing lines and details to atract the attention. The boiler- and powerhouse are open on the viewing side ( cut open along the module line) showing boilers, steamengines and all related piping.  I start normally with 2-3 modules to be able to allign the track correctly. When I am satisfied, I start with the mill module as it has the most details to be finished.

Jacq