I have been listless lately in regards to modeling, so I started looking around for a new future unfinished project and I came across some old pictures in my reference files. Down in Australia there are 2 old Fordson tractor locos at the Australian Narrow Gauge Railway Museum Society (ANGRMS) in Woodford Queensland. They were used by the by the Caledonian Colliery for many years, up until 1965 in fact. The first was built in 1928, and a second in 1938. Both were built using the running gear from a 4-6-0 steam loco pilot truck (bogey), and topped off with a Fordson tractor. I liked the long sporty wheelbase, and of course the use of a Fordson was certainly appreciated since I have come to own another Danbury Mint diecast that has nothing to do. My model is based on the 1928 version.
I used the many photos on the ANGRMS website to make a 3D model in Solidworks. It is mostly finished; I just need to figure out the steering-wheel-operated brakes and then I should be able to start getting some parts printed. Although the design is heavily based on the prototype, I will be doing a free-lanced version. I have found that trying to be utterly faithful to a prototype can be a real inspiration killer, so we'll have none of that here. I also have a Fordson F and these used Fordson N units. They are nearly identical, but there are enough detail differences to be noticeable. It will also be un-powered; I have no desire to engineer a hidden drive train nor sculpt and paint a driver. I will need to find someone to turn the tires, but I already have some awesome scale roller chain from Kyosho that Hauk had recommended a few years back when I was planning my monorail model.
So, I guess time will tell if this becomes anything more, but I did enjoy getting it this far.
The prototype:
http://www.zelmeroz.com/album_rail/qld/lrrsa/jk_lrrsa170-25.jpg
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First off, this looks like it'll be a terrific project!
Second, your CAD drawings are amazing!
hi chuck
look at the Illawara Light Railway museum south of sydney they have another one that is a bit different
regards kim
Chuck, I'm trying to get your graphics to load at midnight Pacific time and can't. There's nothing at all visible below your text, not even an icon, but when I right clicked on the vast blank space I found an option to open the image in a new tab; it lined to Fotki. And then Fotki failed to open. My guess is their server is down but, for the tenth or eleventh time, I urge everyone to upload their actual images here, not links.
Considering your reputation, and if I'm not the only person to experience frustration, I predict Fotki will be stormed en masse and obliterated. Or at least chastised.
Russ
Same here at 6:50 am EST...interesting text - no photos
I will be watching this as I plan on building some sort of tractor loco someday.
I too love the Fordsons so between you and Gordon I should be able to cobble something together.
Marty
Chuck,
Words like "1/16", "rail tractor", "2 foot (600 mm)" always attract my attention ... will follow this thread (and your progress) frequently and with interest - even I don't have a diecast Fordson on any shelf ... ::)
What a pity, that wheelbase would not match my purposes, apart from the fact it appears a bit rustic and would be far too loud serving at a hospital supply railway ... ;)
BTW: How do you like these?
http://forum.e-train.fr/trains/download/file.php?id=333882 (http://forum.e-train.fr/trains/download/file.php?id=333882)
http://forum.e-train.fr/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=77949 (http://forum.e-train.fr/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=77949) (scroll down)
They seem to be the only diesel powered rail tractors/locomotives running on 400 mm track ever.
Quote from: finescalerr on March 03, 2015, 12:15:41 AM
Chuck, I'm trying to get your graphics to load at midnight Pacific time and can't. There's nothing at all visible below your text, not even an icon, but when I right clicked on the vast blank space I found an option to open the image in a new tab; it lined to Fotki. And then Fotki failed to open. My guess is their server is down but, for the tenth or eleventh time, I urge everyone to upload their actual images here, not links.
Russ, no problem at all over here!
Cheers
Chuck - Thanks for the wonderful drawings!!!
I have been intrigued by these two Fordson-powered locos for a couple of years at least. I want to build one of them in 1:13.7 scale so I'll be watching your build with great interest.
Bill Martinsen
Hmm looks like the pictures are back for now. Fotki is so behind the times, I don't know how much longer they will last. I think they were down for maintenance.
Thanks Ray! Thanks Gerald and Kim for the additional loco information. I think one could spend several lifetimes modeling only industrial railroad stuff.
Bill, M., when I get the design finalized I can scale them up for you. I am basing them off of photos and a couple of pics with someone holding a tape measure. Should be very close, but not likely exact.
Marty, if I finish this you will need to add a third rail in you enginehouse for some posing!
Yep, the drawings and photos are visible now. Wonderful little critter. The steering wheel must be very useful. I like the chain drive on the side. That's not an easy thing to draw in 3-D although, with your experience and expertise, you probably cranked it out in a few hours.
Gerald, I like those rusty (rustic?) critters you linked to. If you or anyone else wants, I have a variety photos of small Plymouths and a collection of critter photos. When I finished the final NG Annual I finally dumped my 20 year old scanner. My all-in-one printer/scanner prints well but scans badly so any photo scans I might do would be mediocre at best.
Russ
Supposedly they operated the brakes with the steering wheel. But I can't find any pictures that show any brakes at all. The chain was easy in Solidworks. I just made the inner link and the outer link and then patterned them in a line or around the sprockets. Pretty cool because I can predict the exact number required.
Quote from: Chuck Doan on March 03, 2015, 07:41:43 AM
Bill, M., when I get the design finalized I can scale them up for you. I am basing them off of photos and a couple of pics with someone holding a tape measure. Should be very close, but not likely exact.
Thanks, Chuck. You are indeed a gentleman.
I think I probably have the same set of photos you have and, like you, I see no evidence of brakes on the wheels.
Bill Martinsen
Hi Chuck,
Glad to see this model covered on the forum. As for the steering wheel brake thing, I'm not sure of the exact method of the mechanism, but somewhere in the engineering of the bash process, the steering link must have been diverted to convert the steering arms as brake levers instead. I believe they operated in much the same way as a brake wheel would on a common piece of rolling stock. Always thought it looked weird having a steering wheel on a piece of machinery that you technically can't steer, until I was told that it was something like turning left applies the brakes.
Given that most of these styles of loco's were cobbled and bashed units, it would be quite reasonable to do some of your own creative engineering on the underside and essentially design your own brake mechanism. I imagine it would have been driven as unwinding the brakes and then just let the clutch out to engage the chain drive.
Cheers,
Dan
Chuck,
that's an interesting prototype! I'm looking so much forward to see this come alive. The axle bearings seem to be completely open: I'm asking myself how they'd grease them?
Sure you've seen this one, too:
http://www.zelmeroz.com/album_rail/qld/jf-hr/caledonian/fordson-rev.pdf
About the brakes: Where have the brakes been positioned at the rubber-tired Fordsons? If it is included to the gearbox there would be no need for additional brakes. If so maybe they simply left the steering wheel to give the driver something to hold on to?
Volker
Great project Chuck.
On the brake thing, Given that the hubs on the rear axle have brake shoes and drums with a brake pedal one would think that they would be used.
However those brakes may have been a little to "light duty" for full safety so perhaps they added a drive line brake drum assembly, or in this case maybe an axle assembly, operated by pressure using the steering wheel.
The old drive line brakes on trucks weren't that great but would probably be more positive than the drum brakes relaying through all that chain link slop on this drive system.
Will follow along once again :)
Rick
Thanks for the info Dan! More to think about.
Yes, Volker, that was the drawing that made me decide to build. Opened it up and went Uh-Oh. I really liked the look. On the steam loco that donated the wheels, the bearings were inboard of the wheels. I also wondered about why they were open, but the are. On the rusting remains you can clearly see the Babbitt material.
I have seen several other Fordson locos without any brakes. I am told that once you disengaged the engine, the friction of the worm drive brought it to a halt. I have also seen Fordson tractors pulling heavy trailers without brakes.
Thanks Rick, since there are no sanders either, I am assuming there weren't any real grades on the line. I also see no provision for adjusting the chain slack as seen in factory built engines. A very rudimentary design that apparently worked for many years.
Hi Chuck,
Congratulations on a great challenging project.
Clear to me is to see to see in the drawing that the steering gear is a gear lever goes.
Therefore, the gears are shifted with the steering wheel.
The shift lever to be seen for the reversal of the direction of travel.
According to the "Fordson Manual " it says "For normal operation the transmission brake was provided ,but from 1929 a hand brake was available which operated internal expanding bands in drums fixed to the rear wheels " The Steering wheel I would think is just there for something to hang onto ! Only the tracked version used the steering wheel to operate the the brakes .
and yet another one with no brakes - drive was from the gear box through a shaft
Barney
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages51.fotki.com%2Fv1560%2Fphotos%2F2%2F1908522%2F10924935%2Fphoto-vi.jpg&hash=28c5a29a78e573e2d8cd5ca3b0cd029b805ad4ec) (http://public.fotki.com/SRMacc/fordson-narrow-gaug/fordson-001-jpg.html)Hosted on Fotki (http://www.fotki.com)
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages45.fotki.com%2Fv153%2Fphotos%2F2%2F1908522%2F10924935%2Fphoto-vi.jpg&hash=e31ff5b5ea4ac3eaa428d533279560f2a320edc9) (http://public.fotki.com/SRMacc/fordson-narrow-gaug/trc-1-jpg.html)Hosted on Fotki (http://www.fotki.com)
Russ,
Quote from: finescalerr on March 03, 2015, 11:55:21 AM
Gerald, I like those rusty (rustic?) critters you linked to. If you or anyone else wants, I have a variety photos of small Plymouths and a collection of critter photos.
... thanks for your offer - I really like the small Plymouths, but acutally even they are "too big" for my purposes ... imagine the french diesel critters I discovered only measure approx. 170 x 60 cm ... like a bath tub (more or less) ;D
Cheers
Chuck I can't believe I missed the start of this thread.
Guess I was buried in snow so I couldn't see over the top it to see your new adventure.
Great CAD drawings. Looking forward to the progress on this.
Jerry
A slightly clearer view of the Trail's tractor.
Chuck-- Get me info on the wheels/tires and I'll see about making some. I recently finished a set of lead truck wheels for an SP narrow gauge #18 in 1/20... a project that will probably not go much farther, but it sure was fun to START. My wheels are cast in epoxy, which should work fine if the model will not be asked to run. You can reach me at farmall20@gmail.com (hope that's not a breach of Forum etiquette).
By the way, there is a home-grown slag train loco on display in Douglas, Arizona that has a Fordson powertrain angled through the cab floor to power the wheels. The truck side frames have the mark "Douglas, AT" (that's Arizona Territory) cast in the side, showing that it was built before 1913 when Arizona became a state. I've been wanting to get down there to get some pictures one of these days...
What was the purpose of spiral spokes??
Quote from: Ray Dunakin on March 07, 2015, 09:18:42 AM
What was the purpose of spiral spokes??
Spiral spokes avoided fracture during shrinking process while cooling down the cast parts, when casting steel quality wasn't that good yet.
Cheers,
Volker
Who else would know something like that? I am impressed. -- Russ
These are worth a look at https://slatersplastikard.com/assets/pdfs/WC-16NG.pdf They are 16mm to the foot but I think the large curly spoke Glyn Valley one would be close in diameter and wide enough
One I started in 1/16 scale but never finished -well you never know one day !
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages15.fotki.com%2Fv587%2Fphotos%2F2%2F1908522%2F10924935%2Fphoto1-vi.jpg&hash=e375f38a77eec1e75e31e7bd989cde84a49338ee) (http://public.fotki.com/SRMacc/fordson-narrow-gaug/co1-jpg.html)Hosted on Fotki (http://www.fotki.com)
Barney
Thanks Volker!
Shhh! Don't tell anyone that is a New Zealand prototype in the photo (Southland, where they get 20 feet of rain a year)!
Good project Chuck !
Barney, the beginning is very nice.
Thank you Dave for the offer! And everyone else for the information. Thanks Kevin for the picture. Definitely a good group to hang with! One could build hundreds of Fordson based locos and never repeat a design.
The internet is amazing, and I am not referring to cat videos (this time). I e-mailed the museum where these engines are kept asking if they knew of someone who might have more pictures beyond the ones posted on their site. A fellow named Terry Olsson put me in touch with Greg Stephenson who took the original pictures. Greg mentioned that he was going to out there this weekend and he would check out the brakes. Well, this morning I received some excellent pictures showing exactly how the brake worked (one shoe on the left rear axle.) How great is that!
I will draw it up and post it when I get a chance.
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Here is the brake (items in green). The ball end attaches to the Fordson steering arm. Only one wheel was used.
Outstanding. Thanks, Chuck! -- Russ
Thanks Russ!
Here is the rigging connected up.
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That is not a brake. it is what i would call a "slow" maybe!
Marty
It's not even much of a parking brake!
Those drawings are so good, why bother to build it? -- Russ
I have trouble managing inertia on model locomotives. I imagine that thing is much the same when you leave your trust in just one shoe :)
Cheers,
Dan
Dan, I like the weirdness often found on homemade equipment. Must have worked since these lasted into the mid-sixties in use. What is unknown is how many drivers quit after their first run. :o
Russ, why aren't we satisfied just taking pictures of trains, etc. Many people are. Why do we have to build a miniature of them too?
I have no idea, I'm just glad we do.
Chuck your drawings are as good as your models or those real life buildings you do.
I have no idea, I'm just glad we do. Amen Chuck.
Jerry
Thanks for tracking down the brake info, Chuck. Now that I see where it's located and what it looks like, I can see parts of the apparatus in the photos I have. I've looked at those photos many times and never realized I was looking at some of the brake linkage.
Bill Martinsen
Chuck, being the stickler for detail that you are, I think the steering wheel needs to be modelled as slightly out of shape, pulled out a bit in one spot, and have finger nail marks pitted into the grip, from where each driver would have encountered that "STOP, STOP, STOoooooOP" moment of the days work ;D
Cheers,
Dan
Hee hee, good idea Dan. Interestingly, one of the locos currently has a bashed in front.
Thanks Jerry!
Bill, I am glad I contacted them and they were so nice to take the pics for a nutty modeler.
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I wasn't planning to build the canopy, but I am having second thoughts. Would only add 6 to 9 months to the build.
Chuck -
The canopy adds a lot to the quirky good looks of this unique critter. I'd say it would be well worth the extra months of effort. ;D
Bill Martinsen
Chuck...I'm with Bill all the way. The canopy will add a lot of interest to this little loco.
Gordon Birrell
https://www.flickr.com/photos/gordonbirrell/
Count me in as another vote for the canopy!
Add my vote to the list. -- Russ
Chuck id be interested to see it with a canopy only covering the driver. But I think a canopy of any sorts will add to the quirky nature of it.
About the brake: As far as I understood the regular braking was done by the worm drive so this was rather a parking brake?
And yes: CANOPY!
Volker
If its an Aussie based loco, and with our blazing sun, you'd better have the canopy.
Cheers,
Dan
Oh dear. Guess I'd better source some brass angle stock.
Good luck with the brass.
I am having more and more difficulty finding brass shapes.
The only game in the US is special shapes.
They show a lot of sizes but when you call the inventory is hit and miss.
Some are "discontinued" as well....
Please let me know if you find another source.
Marty
And maybe some rudimentary chain guards or more like fenders. I really don't want to hide the chain detail. Safety third!
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I'm also open to ideas for the roof covering. The first picture I posted is the clearest shot of the prototype I have seen. Kind of looks like metal sheeting to me. ?
You can make a judgment from that photo? I'd say it also could be tarpaper, just as you've drawn it. Personally, I'd go with something other than metal since most of the model is metal, the canopy has a wood frame, and the contrast between metal and non-metal is cool. -- Russ
Quote from: finescalerr on March 17, 2015, 12:08:51 AM
I'd say it also could be tarpaper, just as you've drawn it. Personally, I'd go with something other than metal since most of the model is metal, the canopy has a wood frame, and the contrast between metal and non-metal is cool. -- Russ
Ditto.
Cheers,
Volker
Here's another vote for tarpaper and wood.
Bill Martinsen
Chuck tarpaper and wood.
Like you said what's a few more months!
Jerry
Yeah, that's a good point you guys. Thanks!
And here's a suggestion from Nick, who asked me to post this image because ... well, because he's Nick. He writes, "With regard to the discussion going on at the moment about what Chuck should use as the roof covering for his new Fordson, I would like to put forward my suggestion. Possibly not the most obvious choice I grant you , but would make it look different!" -- Russ
Thatch would be different for sure!
HAHA. Thats classic. Ill be willing to bet good money this picture was taken somewhere here in africa.
Ive seen some crazy things on this crazy continent. That ranks right up there.
Russ, please let Nick out of the corner. Being alone over there for so long is beginning to have a negative effect on him.
Finished the design. Added the wood box mounted in the front. Assuming it was for odds and ends like spare coupler links and tools.
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And I sent of a starter kit to Shapeways. Should be able to begin building soon I hope.
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SHOOOT!
Can anyone order a "kit"????
Marty
That will be gorgeous. I love the drawing. -- Russ
Marty, PM sent.
Thanks Russ!
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HooDoggies that's neat!
This will be a real beauty. Can't wait to see the first steps.
No wonder Marty wants to do one!!!
Jerry
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I received my "kit" today. Excellent service from Shapeways, and the Post Office who delivered it a day early. I gave the frame a quick coat of primer and now I will let the tractor sit on it for a while to see what happens. The attachment points of the heavy die-cast will bear down directly over the wheels and hopefully it will all stay nice and straight.
Is the tractor body from the same manufacturer as the one you so extensively modified? -- Russ
I like the end beams flush not dropped down.
Which will you do?
Could the sways parts be used for lost wax casting the parts in metal(brass)?
Marty
Yes Russ it's a Danbury mint item.
Marty, they offer a wax printing service for casting, but the size is limited to just under 4" long. I don't think this material would melt out cleanly, but I don't know for sure.
The dropped beams were unique to this design. Actually, very strange.
Wow! Seeing the printed parts makes me even more interested in this project. Love it - love it - love it. ;D
Bill Martinsen
Hi Chuck,
Hum, yum, yum! Nice project and still with the Danbury Mint Fordson tractor!
Franck
Test fitting the chain and journals.
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Starting to paint some parts
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Nice! I love the paint on those wheel centers, looks very much like old, greasy metal.
Glad you had some time to model. Adequate. -- Russ
Quote from: Ray Dunakin on May 22, 2015, 09:36:30 PM
Nice! I love the paint on those wheel centers, looks very much like old, greasy metal.
Ditto. How did you achieve that look of creeping oil/grease residues at the wheel's back side and for the build up grime and grease? This looks very good, Chuck.
Volker
Thanks!
I first did a coat of Krylon flat black primer, followed by Vallejo Model Air Burnt Umber airbrushed on. Then a thin coat of Polly Scale Grimy Black. Then I applied a mix of Mig pigments, rust black and tan. Then I added a mix of brown and black oil paints and fine powdered dirt to the face. Based on reference pics, I added some "grease" seep thru to the slots and a bit on the farside. The pigments wicked up the oils in a surprisingly pleasing fashion. Still seems to be visible after a couple of days of drying. Happy accident! I think the oil paints are going to work well for grease, just have to allow plenty of time to dry.
Looking good.
How are the printed parts working out?
I emailed you about painting mine, may be I have an old address?
Marty
Sorry Marty, I was out of the office last week. Clean them WELL. I use Acetone and then a good soda-blasting. Then Acetone again. Any residual wax will leach through paint and eventually cause a sparkly powder to emerge (It brushes off, but that assume you can reach it with a soft brush).
I have been using Mr. Surfacer spray can as a primer. The grey and the 1500 black work well and seem to be durable. I have used Vallejo acrylic and Polly scale with no problem as a top coat. I'm sure enamels will work too, but I don't know if the Mr. Surfacer is a good base for enamels (kinda hard to read the can).
Epoxy and ACC work well for bonding.
Hope that helps some!
Great to see you working on this again. Beautiful job on those wheels.
Jerry
Got the running gear parts primed. Had some setbacks with the painting before, so hopefully it will go better this time.
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Good to see you making parts again.
They kook great.
Now just keep going with the updates.
Jerry
Please find time to work on this model. I, and probably everyone else, will be fascinated by your progress. -- Russ
That's sneaky doing the wheels and treads separately...
Why?
What happened with the paint? Was it a FUD issue or just a paint issue?
Oh, and we need to talk about your 1/16 gas-pump and pastels........
-Marty
Originally I was going to make the tires steel (or rather have someone turn them for me) for the look. But then I decided to try printing them and see if I can get a steel finish I like. So the steel option is still open and that's why the parts wound up separate.
The issues have been with the FUD wax and the sparkly powder. I thought I had cleaned them well, but the powder leached thru. Twice. It takes about two weeks for it to start to show up. I have had mixed results; some parts clean fine and never show sparkles. I am beginning to think some parts may be more porous than others.
Well, it's almost the end of November and I have built almost nothing this year. But the summer has ended, the yacht is in dry dock, and the pretty girls have removed their thongs and put them away until the spring. And so, back to the modeling grind.
I seriously underestimated the frame for my loco. The 3D printed frame sat all summer with the tractor perched on it in the hottest room in my house. All seemed well, but once I started cleaning the wax off, it began bowing and yawning enough to convince me the FUD material was too unstable to use. It was also a fair bit undersize to my 3D model, almost an 1/8" short and a 1/16th inch narrow.
The prototype uses C channel structural steel, with no thick cast sections often found in small loco frame design. The die-cast tractor weighs about 3/4 of a pound with the wheels removed, so I needed something thin yet strong to support it.
Earlier in this topic, David Fischer offered to assist in some casting, so I contacted him to see if I could cast the frame pieces. He expressed doubt that they would be stable enough in the thin sections required. He recommended building the frame up with individual pieces of styrene and metal for greater rigidity. This seemed more work than I wanted to do, but eventually he convinced me to give it a go, and this is what I am doing. I'll write it up in detail when I get more time.
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Here are the side frames in primer for flaw detection. I go through many prime and strip sessions.
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I attached the frame sides to the journal pedestals yesterday. I hung a few other parts on to get a feel for it. The end beams seen here are printed, but I will be making styrene versions. The FUD material is too unstable in these thin profiles. (The toothpick will be painted and weathered in the final model)
Thank you David, for the assistance! What a Forum is all about.
Im curious, likely too late but why not do the frame in steel?
Would be easy the shear and bend up.
Looking good none the less, glad your back from the yacht and babes.
Mj
Maybe easy for some, but I have virtually no metalworking tools or skills. :( I used K and S brass strip, plus a smaller strip to get to the correct height. I am well behind the many ace fabricators on this forum. But one does what one can. ;)
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Good job on that frame.
looking good chuck but will it work.
kind regards kim
I'm glad you are back at the bench and look forward to watching all this come together. -- Russ
Great solution!
I like what you did.
Very accurate dimensions too and plenty strong now.
-Mj
That's a nice beam, but i'm impressed with the strength of that toothpick! :) Good to see this project again.
Very good DIY solution with the beams - I'm looking forward to your progress. I think it would have been a bit difficult to mill the profile's sloped shoulders and fillets, unless there's a 5-axis machining center available.
Cheers,
Volker
Nice job Chuck. Looks really good and glad your leaving the yacht and girls alone for the winter.
Wait a minute you don't have winter there!!!
Jerry
Hi Chuck
I love you "DIY solution" with the beams. What a result with basic modeling techniques!
Quote from: Chuck Doan on November 22, 2015, 12:50:41 PM
All seemed well, but once I started cleaning the wax off, it began bowing and yawning enough to convince me the FUD material was too unstable to use.
I am a bit anxious now as my Transmission wheels (In fact, Volker created them!) are the same FUD material. Is there a risk that they will behave in the same manner one day? :-\
One more question to your JB Weld fillets:
When I had to fill up panel lines to engrave them anew, I had to learn that the filler should have about the same consistence as the surrounding matrerial. This was the key for smooth surfaces. Up to this day I used SuperGlue with Baking Soda. Now, would that mean, your JB Weld is about equally hard as Styrene ???
Thanks, Peter
Peter,
Not to hijack Chucks thread but in my opinion the JB weld is darn close to styrene as far as hardness. I have used both quite a bit but never together - yet!
If it is critical you could always use styrene softened in solvent for the filler.
Mj
Thanks Jerry, I will try to dream about the girls and the yacht tonight and remind them.
Peter, I don't think you will have any trouble. My frame was 2.5 x 6.8 inches and the sections were very thin. I have not had any issues with FUD parts otherwise. I just pushed the envelope a bit too far this time.
I used the JB just as a test, and it worked fine. But I wasn't trying to re-work anything afterwards, so I don't know how well it might re-scribe. I have used it to build up shapes, but I haven't cut into it. Might be kind of crumbly in thin sections.
I will write up what I did, it required virtually no re-work after application. It does seem to stick to styrene; I tried soda-blasting the fillets and they stayed fine.
Last year I experimented with making rivet heads by applying tiny dots of thick CA onto barely marked location dimples on the side of a pair of HO flatcars. The technique worked fairly well. More recently I experimented using JB Weld instead and when the timing was right, the method worked even better because the JB Weld was more viscous and stayed in place better. There are a couple rivet heads that spread out a little in both cases. The CA is very brittle and really hard to clean up. I haven't tried gently scraping away the excess JB Weld yet. The rivets are very small and might just pop off the styrene. Fortunately the piece represents old rolling stock and a couple mashed rivets don't look out of place. However, Some day i will make a test strip of rivets on some scrap styrene and see how ell the JB Weld can be reshaped when that small.
The JB weld is easy to scrape or sand. I often use the 5 minute version for minor fills. I used the regular stuff for my fillets so I would have lots of time to work it. As Bill says it is viscous and I had no spreading after my fillets were formed.
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The prototype frame is welded together, so I started testing some ideas for weld seams. As I had successfully used JB weld for my fillets, I decided to try it for welds.
So far: Apply with a small brush (brush can be cleaned with acetone) along desired seam. Let it set for approx. 3 hours and then work with a tool made from brass tubing. The JB weld is very forgiving and it can be pushed around with a sharp toothpick to even up/form the edges.
This is a test frame. I gave it a quick coat of black primer. Macro shots taken from 1/2" away. Looks promising so far.
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Press lightly into seam with the cut side down.
That looks friggin awesome!!!!!!!
Marty
Ok, I actually thought those were shots of the prototype welds, and wondered for a moment what happened to the shots of the model! Yes, it looks that real!
Wow. That's convincing. Do I get it right that seam diameter is approximately tubing diameter or a bit less?
Cheers,
Volker
Wow, guess that's why they'll call it "JB Weld(ing seam)" from now on.
Simply unbelievable! For years the military modeller branch is discussing HOW to do realistic weld seams. And you are simply going to your work bench and are doing the most finest welds I've ever seen...
Knocked out!
Peter
Hi Chuck,
Awesome work, and a breathtaking realism! What type of JB Weld did you use? The steel reinforced expoy?
Franck
What we would expect amazing work.
Jerry
It is not for nothing that Chuck is one of the best modellers in the world :)
Thanks very much! It's pretty rare that something works without a lot more testing.
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Here is the weld as it looks when first brushed on with a 5/0 brush. Plenty of time now to go run errands or what not.
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This is the product. It is the original JB Weld, not the Quick Weld.
The tube I used for the tool was .046 inch diameter. The weld seam was about .03 inch wide.
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I thought this was kinda neat. The front of the Fordson tractor on my locomotive mounts to the frame using a modified dropped front axle. I needed something strong to support the heavy die-cast tractor, so I had a brass part "printed" by Shapeways. What they actually do is print a wax master from my model file, and then use that to make a lost wax casting. Cost about an hour of my computer time and 17 bucks. Not bad for a one-off custom brass casting. It has some minor layer lines that I will remove and then I will have my first structurally useful printed part!
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In the meantime, I have been bogged down adding approx. 40 nuts and bolts to each frame side. Very boring, but I am almost ready to glue the frame together (it is just taped together for the pictures).
Awesome!
Yes, and wonderful, too. How will you remove the layer lines -- by sandblasting, filing, some kind of sandpaper, or what? -- Russ
Hi Chuck,
as always great as you build your models.
I found myself just once more the thread unfortunately seen by no detailed information about the roller chain, since the dimensions and the source would interest me closer again.
That brass casting looks good (and almost as strong as the toothpick posted previously). I'm curious too how you will clean it up.
Just to be clear about the cost - the computer time was yours? and the $17 covered the wax master and the lost wax casting by Shapeways? That sounds like a good deal.
Wow that is unbelievable. Your work is just beautiful.
Jerry
Russ, I have already cleaned most of it; I used sandpaper and files. The lines are very shallow, but it does take a bit more effort than the FUD material .
Helmut, the chain is made by Kyosho for radio controlled motorcycles. It is 3mm pitch. I bought it on Amazon.
Bill, the 17 dollars is the cost from Shapeways less shipping. I think a very good deal for a single custom part. And they do it all, and the part is delivered in a little velvet pouch. I don't know what my computer time costs. I could never have fabricated a part for that cost, and it would not look as good.
Thanks Ray and Jerry!
Chuck; how do you attach the front dropped axle to the frame?.....Allan
It rests on what was formerly the front spindle bosses. I am going to install some pins in the bosses and make matching holes in the top of the frame sides and then glue it down. Then some fake nuts and bolts. Almost all the frame parts are pinned as well as glued.
I finally finished the construction of my frame, and I gave it a quick primer coat in order to spot any flaws. It will be "washed" off later.
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Some close-ups of the JB Weld "welds". The cast texture on the journal pedestals was also done with JB Weld, sponged on and then sanded a bit when dry. The weld spatter was done with JB KWIK, applied with a sharp toothpick. Before it sets, the JB forms a near perfect round spot. I will be adding some more before the final paint job.
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Weld beads are fantastic Chuck!
Congratulations,
Franck
Won't be long now!
Stunning
Did you do anything to the chain?
Marty
Really stunning work! The welds look perfectly real.
Thanks guys! Marty, so far I just made the lengths I need. I need to install it before the final treatment.
That is utterly disgusting! How can anybody so accurately miniaturize reality? -- Russ
Phew, i love those welding seams. Cast iron appearances is coming along nicely, too. I guess you sanded the square sloped washers for journal pedestals' fixture?
Cheers,
Volker
Thanks Russ!
Volker, I made a fixture to sandwich styrene strip between to different height brass strips. Then I scraped the styrene with an X-acto blade to create a taper. Then I cut each washer to length.
Wow!! Fantastic work as usual. Those seams perfect.
Jerry
Weld spatter? Ahh, of course! ::) ::) ::)
Seriously, I've never noticed them anywhere before...
Love those weld lines. Looks awesome. Do you keep track of the hours you spend on a project?..... Allan
Beautiful. Looks like JB Weld can do a lot.
Thanks! Alan, no, never.
Great to see this coming together! Love the weld spatter. I know that the REAL loco would be painted (probably several layers thick) but a couple of those welds finished "raw" would be fantastic-- a repair or modification with scorched paint, soot, and rust around a shiny bead would really show off the accuracy of this technique... just a thought! Keep it up-- this is looking wonderful. DF
Thanks Dave! Interesting idea. I am planning a multi-layer finish, and I'm hoping all this will still be visible afterwards. Lot's of paint tests to do first.
I don't know about all of you, but I what confuses me is the fact, that there is no slightest sign of imperfection in Chuck's work. Yes, yes, Chuck, I know you are doing a lot of tests first ;)
But compared to what I am able to do myself and to what I see in severeal forums around, there is no light and shade in your work. I am always striving to show here my work in its best light, but ... I do know (of course) what I failed to achieve.
So, hats off to such outstanding results!
I'm sure you will see the imperfections, light, and shade soon, Peter. Chuck hasn't detailed or painted anything yet. Just wait! -- Russ
Better late than never...one year old!
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Many happy returns!
Well Happy Birthday Chuck!!
May your second year be filled with more wonderful accomplishments...
Jerry
Thanks Jerry!
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Front mount, part 2. When I had the first mount printed and cast, I omitted the little ribs that the Fordson axle had alongside each hole. This was because they were smaller than the minimum detail size. But after I saw how nicely it came out, I submitted a second model with the proper detail and crossed my fingers. This is how it looks after some sanding and a couple of test primer coats have been removed. I added a couple of 00-90 brass bolt heads to the top, and some pins to the bottom side that will key into my frame.
Wow, that looks fantastic!
I doubt anything could look any better. -- Russ
That turned out well. Nice to see that crossing your fingers is a viable aid for pushing the envelope on resolution :)
Chuck it is always such a pleasure to follow along with your work, you commitment to achieving a particular effect is one of the great aspects of you models. being able to create a convincing sloppy welding job by leaving the welding splatter just blew me away.
Michael
Well done Chuck !
Like I said. Year two and we have raised the bar even higher.
Excellent work Chuck.
Jerry
Thanks! I was pleased that the details printed, and survived casting. I didn't think to factor in any shrinkage, but it seems to fit.
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Beginning the scary part. I found time finally to get the base coat on my frame. I used Tamiya TS-1 Red Brown from the spray can. It goes on thin and smooth. From testing, I found that it is impervious to burn thorough from chipping techniques. I am currently testing different paints to use for the final coat.
I built a simple stand to hold the frame for painting and final weathering.
Hey that looks great Chuck!
Gosh I thought you forgot it in the rain outside. :o
Then I remembered it don't rain in California.
Good to know the Tamiya is so tough.
Marty
Sweet!
Chuck, wait a moment! If babelfish translated more or less correctly, you DO NOT use any primer? Tamiya TS-1 Red Brown direct from the spray can is your priming color? And that will resist the chipping/weathering process to follow? ??? ??? ???
Happy birthday little critter - looking good in fact excellent or even better
Barney
Thanks!
!
Peter, I chose the Tamiya because it sprays on very smoothly, and was a good starting point as a rust color. I did a lot of testing on styrene, and I found it to stand up to chipping with water or Windex. In fact I left a heavy coat of Windex on a piece until it evaporated with no effect to the paint. I have been chip testing Polly Scale, Vallejo Model Air and Tamiya paints, and I have never yet burned through the base coat.
I have also had good success with the Mr. Surfacer primers, both Grey and Black (there is also a new Red Oxide color). In this case, I wanted to minimize the number of coats so I wouldn't cover up my weld and cast texture detail, so I went with a single rust colored base.
None of these paints are as effective on metal; I am using a Krylon metal primer for my brass parts.
And now we now why Chuck gets such terrific results: He does test after test and refines his techniques before actually working on the model. That is something I must emulate. -- Russ
Actually I am worried that I will ruin all the work I have done so far. I have little confidence working on "metal" weathering. All of the brilliant work going on in the military model realm can be as intimidating as it is inspiring. Mostly I am trying to find techniques that will allow some do-overs. Thankfully the hairspray chipping method seems to allow a complete scrub off, at least on sample pieces.
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Notes, research pictures and paint test pieces. AKA as a cat trap.
(Shhhh...it's working)
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Quote
I have little confidence working on "metal" weathering.
Thanks for your explanations. Indeed, priming metal parts, that's another story. And you have some of them on your very interesting project, so I will follow your thread with great interest.
BTW. For my last efforts in this direction I used the "Weinert-Grundierung", especially designed for metal surfaces. It worked, but I haven't finished the weathering of the parts yet... :-\
Chipping and weathering on metal remains a challenge and always will be something of a gamble.
Cheers, Peter
Thanks for the info, Peter! I will report on how well the brass parts work out.
While researching railroad equipment for painting reference, I frequently came across examples of what I will call "topographic layering". This is when a previous paint job is poorly scraped or prepped before a new coat is applied. Often, several levels of paint can be seen under the top coat. There are often brush marks, contaminants and debris in the paint as well.
In the Spring 2010 issue of the Logging, Mining and Industrial Annual, there is a photo article of some small Plymouth diesels. From a distance they look to be in pretty good condition. But in the close-up views, it is clear that the freshest paint was applied hastily and not much time was spent on the prep. The visible layers tell a story of time (and poor workmanship!)
I am intrigued with the idea of doing a similar type of paint job on my tractor locomotive frame. I am experimenting with textures and chipping for now. Eventually I will start playing with colors, tones and additional weathering. I can't say for sure if I will do this, but it is fun to play around and try to copy the kinds of rough paint often found on industrial equipment.
The piece shown is approx. 5/8" (16mm) x 1 7/8" (48mm). This scales to about 10" (254mm) high in real life, which is the height of my frame.
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A bit closer view.
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Chuck-- The frame is looking fantastic... no turning back, now! Very interested in your layering experiments-- I, too, have always been intrigued by the surface textures of well-used industrial equipment and I think you are on the right track. The sample is very convincing. Keep it up! DF
Quote from: Chuck Doan on April 18, 2016, 11:12:08 AM
Actually I am worried that I will ruin all the work I have done so far.
That does make strong motivation for testing materials and techniques!
You are so right, Ray!
Thanks Dave! The technique so far: First, the Tamiya red brown as a base coat. Then hairspray followed by Dullcoat to seal it. Then light brushed coats of Polly Scale Tarnished Black, then chipped an hour or more later. Then another light coat of hairspray followed by an airbrushed coat of the same Polly Scale paint. I am going to try different shades of Black and grey soon, and some different paint combos. Mostly I have been trying to get the under chips to be visible through the over coat without looking too thick.
A current example:
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.fotki.com%2F1_p%2Crtqdgrqdfdffffbxttwtggwwkwwf%2Cvi%2Fwrqfwtgqbxbsgrftrgkxkdgdwrbqd%2F9%2F777399%2F10366138%2F2886423029_43134704020061161_o-vi.jpg&hash=879476798e440144c957a3b5d83542030ac219af)
Great information Chuck!
FWIW; I used rustoleum etching primer for the brass parts on my models. you need to be careful not to put too much on. On the detailed parts i decant the spray bomb stuff and air brush it on. I use as little as possible and it seems to stick rather well.
Marty
Chuck, If I'd done all the work you have completed so far I'd probably be stuck testing indefinitely. Good to see you're testing and proceeding.
Chuck looking real fine.
God you just gave us a small book on techniques on chipping. Thanks for all that information.
Jerry
One of you smart guys needs to come up with a "paint layering" paint mask.
Some type of post it sticky backed laser cut sheet of random splotches (holes) that can be reused several times to build said layers.
I'll take 25% of the profits for coming up with the initial idea. ;)
Mj
Marty, go stand in the corner. -- Russ
Well it certainly convinced me "test it and research it " I think I will start again or probely start fishing or better still sleeping
Barney