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Author Topic: 1:8 Scale Gmeinder Feldbahn  (Read 23229 times)
Franck Tavernier
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« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2009, 04:12:42 AM »

Gentlemen, you forgot one thing...

With my experience in painting and modelling too, difficulties are inversely proportional to the scale! More the ratio scale is weak, more the difficulties increase! Don't forget that details are more visible in 1:8 scale than in 1:16 scale or 1:35...So, painting and weathering are more difficult to this scale! Moreover, With this scale you don't be entitled to error, a bolt in reality will be a bolt in 1:8 scale, etc...With this scale, you cannot cheat! And I think it's true with other large scale...if you want a finescale model! Is it true : Chuck; Marty; Gordon; Ken?

I made this model in 1:35 scale, with the goal to carried out the most realistic possible model, as well on construction as on painting…

We haven't all the same goal, the same sensibility, and like Gerd, I think that the builder of this Gmeinder has to like his model!

Chuck named Mig or Michael, like him or Marc (sorry for those which I didn't name), these boys have an approach and a sensitivity in painting  that everyone doesn't have!

For me it's not only a question of skills but a question of modelling approach, which are our goals in finality?

Franck
« Last Edit: December 30, 2009, 05:41:35 AM by Franck Tavernier » Logged

DaKra
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« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2009, 08:36:32 AM »

Frank I think the difficulties are about the same, if you consider the model in terms of resolution of detail per square inch of surface.   Every scale has its technical advantages/disadvantages, but ultimately a good model is not a function of scale, but of the builder. 

Dave
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Chuck Doan
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« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2009, 09:06:32 AM »

Mig recently did a 1/16 tank when he was used to 1/35th. He did say it was more tedious to do the chipping, etc in that size just because there was so much more of it. But his results were as excellent as his smaller stuff. Ahh, talent!

I would have been very aprehensive about painting such a large and excellently built model. For me the only hope would be the fact that it could be stripped readily due to the metal construction! I have no doubt I would need several do-overs.

It is true that weathering can be a difficult thing. MIg and others like him have raised the bar pretty high.






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finescalerr
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« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2009, 02:10:39 PM »

I don't know what the big deal is about. I can weather any model in any scale perfectly in less than 20 minutes with a secret technique I will never share. In fact, I won't even show photos of my perfect models so you guys can't figure out my secrets.

Somewhat less seriously, the level of weathering by Mig and some of you on this forum is a very time consuming, sophisticated process that requires significant talent and a very, very astute eye. The vast majority of hobbyists, even guys who excel at construction, are simply unable to achieve satisfactory results.

For that reason, all hobbyists could benefit from learning simple, effective techniques that produce the overall effect and are fairly foolproof to apply. Gordon Birrell, for example, seems to have discovered methods that bring his models to life, yet don't take forever to apply. (He comes to mind because I just read the thread about his latest locomotive model.) Others have achieved similar results.

If any of you wants to teach guys with limited artistic talent or skill how to achieve satisfactory results in a simple, quick, step-by-step manner, I would eagerly publish one or more articles in my Modelers' Annual.

Most of us may never be Rembrandt but maybe more can come close by painting by the numbers!

Russ
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Franck Tavernier
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« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2009, 03:10:28 PM »

Somewhat less seriously, the level of weathering by Mig and some of you on this forum is a very time consuming, sophisticated process that requires significant talent and a very, very astute eye. The vast majority of hobbyists, even guys who excel at construction, are simply unable to achieve satisfactory results.
Russ

Russ, that's the whole thing in a nutshell!  Wink

Franck
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DaKra
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« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2009, 03:44:18 PM »

Good idea on the simple weathering article.  I think introducing model railroaders to oil paint washes, and weaning them off of Alcohol-and-India-Ink as an all-purpose weathering agent will help a lot.   Otherwise, I think the most typical weathering mistake made by amatures is a tendency to go overboard.   Take the model in this thread as an example.  Had he just left it alone, or given it a light oil wash and quit, it would look respectable.   No special skills required.

Dave
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« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2009, 05:06:40 PM »


It is true that weathering can be a difficult thing. MIg and others like him have raised the bar pretty high.

Wow coming from you, that's mind bolgeling Huh





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« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2009, 09:10:15 PM »

The way I see it, maybe the guy just wants to do it himself, and hasn't yet acquired the skill to do better weathering.

That's sort of how it is with me... I like to do as much as I can, to the best of my current abilities. In some areas I do good work, in other areas not so much, but if necessary I can always redo something later when my skill level is more advanced. I'd much rather have something I did myself, even if it's less than perfect; than to pay for someone else's work.



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« Reply #38 on: December 31, 2009, 05:25:07 AM »


   Even when the guy is trying to do it all by himself, it becomes clear that he has not been looking at what reality looks like.
   Not uncommon in the RR society.

   Here a reference  http://www.finescalerr.com/smf/index.php?topic=441.0

  Jacq
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Franck Tavernier
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« Reply #39 on: December 31, 2009, 07:01:39 AM »

...but ultimately a good model is not a function of scale, but of the builder. 
Dave

Dave, yes, you are right, but perhaps also because of the difficulties which large scales impose to some modellers…

For example, in 1:87 or 1:48 (1:43.5) scale you can still suggest and cheat for some things…A green tuft will be able to represent various types of plants, your imagination and your subconscious will suggest you what you want to see there… In the same way, a simple rivet head will be able to suggest a head of bolt… Simply because on these scales your eye (naked eye of course) will not be able to make the difference, it cannot see in detail, on these scales (1:87; 1:48), details are too small! Thus, these scales present some facilities from this point of view!

With large scales, things are very different! Each parts of a loco, on the background, will be seen very well to the naked eye...

In 1:24 scale, a dandelion will resemble to a dandelion obligatorily! It could not be suggested like in small scale… (See on this subject the techniques developed by Marcel Ackle : http://www.feldbahn-modellbau.ch/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=17)...

In a large scale, weathering will require more detail since the scale will allow it. Thus, for example, rust spots, claws, blotches will have to respect the scale to be realistic! Weathering in large scale is more difficult than in small scale, don't forget that all is seen in detail in large scales...

How many time did Chuck pass on the weathering of his Fordson tractor? Large scales requires more work, techniques, details and this isn't inevitably the goal of any modeler…Compared to these difficulties and requests, it's normal that some modellers are not interested to go further in weathering! Wink Wink

I hope you understand what I am trying to explain with my English... Grin Grin Grin Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


Franck
« Last Edit: December 31, 2009, 07:10:49 AM by Franck Tavernier » Logged

DaKra
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« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2009, 09:07:12 AM »

Franck, yes I understand you.  But... regardless of scale, its the same resolution of detail, or detail per inch ("dpi" if you will Wink) that defines an excellent model.    As you said, you work to whatever level of detail the scale allows.  How much that is allowed, is a function of the man, his eyes, hands, tools and materials.   These elements do not change with scale.   Would an N scale locomotive from scratch be any more or less difficult than a similar sized G scale wheel truck from scratch?   

Or, using your example of foliage, compare 3 scale models with roughly the same proportions:   1/87 small tree, vs 1/48 scale shrub, vs 1/32 potted plant.   To do them realistically, I don't see much of a difference in terms of effort or technical difficulty.   Leaves or pine needles must be suggested on a tree trunk with branches, but it takes artistic skill to make it convincing.   It can't be easy, I've seen very few realistic HO scale trees.  A 1/32 scale plant must be copied precisely from nature, requiring miniature leaves... but they are still large enough to cut and manipulate by hand. Or one could purchase commercial laser/photo etch materials.   But again, I don't see many realistic 1/32 plants.  Requires skill and time, just like an HO tree.     

Funny you mention dandelions, since I've been designing laser cut scale flowers for commercial sale in 1/87 and 1/48. These are specific species of flowers, e.g. daisies, with stems and leaves.   The 1/87 versions may never make it to market.   Same designs, but the materials disintigrate in 1/87, plus the microscopic parts are very difficult to see and assemble in that scale.  A 1/24 dandelion is childsplay by comparison.   Not saying 1/24 is easier, just saying its all a matter of dpi.  Smiley

Dave   



 
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marc_reusser
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« Reply #41 on: December 31, 2009, 05:10:28 PM »

Look,...it is possible to weather beautifully at this scale......granted it takes immense amount of patience, skill, talent, and a penchant for observing what happens in the real world......(the same is necess. in any scale...it just becomes a matter of how to adapt/udjut it to that particular scale to make it seem plausible/believable enough so that our minds eye, reads, interprets and correlates it, as what it is supposed to represent in the real world.

FWIW....I know we can't all be Mig Jimenez, and it may not be your style....but beautiful and realistic weathering can be done in the large scales.......and yes it is 1/16 only half the size of 1/8.....but the overall 1/16 model is probably definitely larger than the Gmeinder.....have a look at Migs Tiger. http://migjimenez.blogspot.com/ if you have not already seen it.

MR
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« Reply #42 on: December 31, 2009, 08:37:15 PM »

Russ, that basic weathering article is a great idea. First though folks should be helped with their powers of observation. I used to give clinics at a hobby shop. I started each topic with a series of slides of the real world. Most of the modelers were quite delighted with the presentations. Even if I botched the hands-on work the audience could still see what I was trying to accomplish based on the slide set. I also always told them to follow their own vision and use the techniques I demonstrated to meet their own standards. That statement shocked many of them, and once it soaked in, it dawned on them that model railroading is for them to enjoy and was not to be scrutinized the boys from Kalmbach (The Central Scrutinizer?) or some Master Model Railroader.

Perhaps the fella with the thread subject loco never developed his viewpoint of weathering. Maybe he never tried different techniques before. Maybe the thing just suits his vision.

I will also add, my clinic audience always had a chance for a hands on at the end. When it came to weathering most were quite shy to even try anything. I believe there is a harsh stigma attached to model weathering, that it is something you have to do to be a real modeler or you need exotic artist's materials from another planet to do it right in the eyes of Those Who Get Published. Once they got going it was hard to stop some of them after the guilt and stress was removed!

So everybody leave the poor feller who built this loco alone! I feel sorry for him if he ever gets to reading this thread...he may never make another model.

And, to the other discussion-- human vision is limited by the circle of confusion. At normal viewing distances it is hard to see N-scale rivets because of eye resolution limits so putting individual rust streaks and chips on them may be a waste of time. Texture and a representation of reality is needed in the smaller scales. But in 1:35 the detail becomes important.  There, putting scaling rust and paint in the proper areas of a motor may be important. Of course, if you put your N-scale Shay into Russ's magic photo machine it'll need the higher level of detail including the rusty bucket of the proper sized fasteners on the running board. So I say there is a difference in weathering for different scales, and one must consider if the item will ever be seen magnified.

That's my 2 cents worth plus a holiday bonus.

John
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John Palecki
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« Reply #43 on: January 01, 2010, 05:06:15 AM »

John ,

  " The Central Scrutinizer" ? That sounds vaguely familiar . Nothing to do with a certain Frank Zappa and his " Joe's Garage"LP by any chance ?

  Nick
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« Reply #44 on: January 01, 2010, 10:04:26 AM »

Nick: Yup. Very well done sir. It just popped into my head when writing.

But doesn't anyone here feel like there is someone looking over your shoulder when modeling. Whose standards to we work to- our own, a vision of ourselves, a magazine editor, a contest judge, some guy who doesn't know us and will never see our work?

Must be all those voices in my head...

John
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John Palecki
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