Three scales

[John McGuyer]

Those of you who attempt to follow the confusion of sizes in G scale might find this interesting. The three cars are all SP B50-13 single sheath boxcars.  The smallest is 1/32 scale, the center is 1/29 and the big one is 1/20.3 standard gauge. (Most 1/20.3 is narrow gauge)

This first shot is the brake end. What is interesting is the perspective actually makes the center car appear smaller while it is in fact slightly larger than the end one.

John

[John McGuyer]

Now for the other end. Also a direct end view which helps to get the comparative  sizes better.

[John McGuyer]

I'll now try to give you some detail shots of the big boxcar. It is one of the few cars I have ever built that I didn't plan on running. Several people now are laying track to run these beasts, so it will probably end up getting run after all.

The shots are of the end and side. Needless to say, we made everything except the wheels.

[MrBrownstone]

Hello John,

I know this is going to sound odd and if not dumb.

but what is the conversion i.e; 1/20.3 = (1/20.3 ft = in inches) i.e; 1/4 inch = 1ft in O scale

sorry for the lack of my ability to figure it out. ( I cant find a ruler/guage to use so I need to make one)

Mike

[John McGuyer]

This is the brake assembly and the door latches. Patterns were made in brass then Bob did resin castings from them. One of the biggest problems with a resin model of this size is that it is fairly heavy and the resin parts want to break. I hope the very subtile paint chipping comes through.

[John McGuyer]

The last shot is the brake assembly. The brakes don't actually  work but all of the linkage is there.

!/20.3 is the scale that 45mm track works out to be at 3 foot gauge. Very popular with large, narrow gauge builders.

[MrBrownstone]

Hey John,

I'm trying to decide what will be my focused scale of modeling

I guess what is throwing me off is I am used to the eight sizes i.e; Z, N, HO, HOn3, O, On30 and an understanding of S and G so on a layout perspective... why 1/20.3 and not .. umm let's say G scale on S.. or is it just to create a better merge/blending with the narrow guage look/apperience on G scale track?

What is to be the common structure size for this 1/20.3?
(Do you need to scale everything to 1/20.3)(what are the mash-up capabilities/limitations)

Seems like you would need alot of room for this scale.

I am very interested in this scale with it's ability to expose much more detail.

I appreciate your knowllege in this area..

If anyone else has any input on this please...do so...

Mike

[LaserM]

John, Nice job on the models. 

I know this is going to sound odd and if not dumb.

but what is the conversion i.e; 1/20.3 = (1/20.3 ft = in inches) i.e; 1/4 inch = 1ft in O scale

sorry for the lack of my ability to figure it out. ( I cant find a ruler/guage to use so I need to make one)

Mike

You are not alone in your confusion.  I've noticed several great articles about this in the Westlake Publishing Archives and elsewhere.

To convert to 1:20.3 scale, divide the full scale measurement by 20.3.  For instance, 36" between the rails was a common narrow gauge in America.  36" / 20.3 = 1.773" =45 mm, which is the distance between the rails for LGB track.  This scale was originally selected to model 3' narrow gauge on LGB track.

In selecting what scale you want to model, you need to first decide what you want to model and how important scale accuracy is.  If you want to accurately model 3' narrow gauge using LGB track, then the politically correct answer is 1:20.3 scale.  If you want to model standard gauge (56.5" between rails) then you want 1:32 scale.  If you plan to use a lot of kit buildings, model cars, and other props with your layout, you might want to consider 1:24 scale.  (1/2 inch = 1')  There are only limited locomotives and cars available for this scale but it does work with your ruler.  You will notice that a lot of the fine scale modelers in this forum use 1:24 scale.  There are also some very fine kit cars available.  1:22.5 is one of the scales LGB used.  This is only 6.7% larger and looks ok to most people with 1:24 scale things.

Don't know if this answers you question,
Advice from another Mike

[MrBrownstone]

Thanks Mike,

That was exactly what I was looking for... 

and you have helped me decide on a scale to consider.


Mike

[finescalerr]

John, beautiful work! Thanks for posting the photos. -- Russ

[Jerry Barnes]

Thanks John, very edu'kational!  Your work is outstanding!

[John McGuyer]

We now have good explanations of the 1/32 and 1/20.3 scales, but not the 1/29. 1/29 is a bastard scale created by Lewis Polk for what he called "wow effect" in competing with LGB. LGB is based more or less (Though not exclusively) on a European metric gauge. He felt he needed something slightly larger than 1/32. Normally such a scale wouldn't be of much consequence, but with Aristocraft and later USAT making most of their product in this scale, it would be safe to say there is more 1/29 equipment in G scale, than 1/32 and 1/20.3 put together.

Huge battles have resulted from fans of both 1/29 and 1/32. Too bad as they have only served to the detriment of model railroading in general and G scale in particular. That is why it is so important in this forum for us to respect the various scales represented and appreciate the talent and effort represented.

John

[Chuck Doan]

Great looking cars, John! The composite type cars are favorites of mine.

Tthe insanity of scales could be a whole topic itself!

[finescalerr]

I have one comment about scale:

To me, at least, it doesn't matter what scale a hobbyist prefers. A hobbyist is one person and his only responsibility is to please himself.

But a model manufacturer has a greater responsibility and that is accuracy. If accuracy is unimportant, he must label himself a TOY manufacturer. So when Aristo-Craft and USA chose 1:29 over 1:32 scale for locos and rolling stock but refused to offer properly gauged track (because they hoped to make more money), I think they betrayed the hobbyist. So did LGB when it insisted on 1:22.5 scale to represent U.S. 3 foot gauge equipment and so did the nincompoops who stuck to (nominally) 1:24 scale toys also running on Gauge 1 track.

Because of short-sighted, self-serving greed the various toy train manufacturers turned large scale into a hodge-podge and forced away most discriminating hobbyists. What's left of their market? One or two dozen people attempting legitimate model railroading and an ever shrinking majority, still a few thousand strong, playing with toys in the dirt.

Fortunately we on this forum find it unnecessary to deal with that nonsense. And the examples of fine modeling we see on this site are evidence that we would rather spend months building something accurate and realistic than waste hundreds of dollars buying injection molded junk.

Russ

[LaserM]

Russ,

I agree with you up to a point.  I think you're being a bit hard on the model, sorry, toy train manufacturers.  After all, the toy train market is where the money is, not in the fine scale modeling.  45 mm track was designed as a high-quality toy track and it a success was the reliability and quality that LGB brought to the toy train market.  There are good reasons that most store window displays, ceiling railroads, and garden railroads used LGB.  When Aristo-Craft and USA Trains tried to take some market share away from LGB (much easier than starting a new gauge) I agree that it made no sense to choose 1:29 scale when they were trying to introduce more realism when 1:32 makes much more sense.  I can see why LGB chose 1:22.5 when they added more realism to their line because the standard narrow gauge in Europe (LGB's biggest market) was meter gauge.  When they added a few American models to their product line, they used the same scale to stay compatible with their other products.  On the other hand, there is nothing about the original LGB, USA Trains, or Aristo-Craft track that can be considered any scale.  The rails, ties, curves, and switches are all wrong.  About all you can say about it is that it is a reliable toy train track.  The only decent scale track in this scale range is being custom made and hand laid, in which case the modeler can select whatever gauge the available rails fit and he is comfortable with.  It is even possible to have your own rail design extruded if you aren't happy with what's out there.

All this does make a mess of things but you can see why it happened; The scale track curve radius and switch angles are too big for a normal room.  To make it fit, you decrease the track radius greatly, you shorten the cars, articulate the engines, and move the couplers to the trucks.  At 1:48 scale, you can still fit a simple scale layout in a room.  1:24 scale needs a very large room just to make a scale loop.  At 1:12 scale forget an indoor layout unless you have a building the size of a large warehouse. Somewhere between 1:32 and 1:20 seems to be the transition where a practical, exact scale indoor railroad becomes impractical and you either make some compromises or pick a smaller scale.

The big manufacturers will always go after where they believe the big markets are.  If anyone can show that a sizable market exists for other gauges, it would be only a small matter to get the track and rolling stock manufactured.  I personally, would like to see 1.5" gauge (1:24, 3'), 1.0" gauge (1:24, 2'), and 2.35" gauge (1:24, standard) made.  There are a few others that would like to see these gauges as well.  Unfortunately it is only a few as far as I know.  I personally, have difficulty understanding the point of building beautifully scaled models at 1:20.3 to fit toy track, although I do appreciate the wonderful craftsmanship that has been put into these fine models.  I guess that the thought is that if enough people support this new scale then the resources will become available.  It looks like that may be what's happening.

Fine scale modeling is too small a market for any big company to take seriously.  After all, what can they sell to a market that is willing to build everything from scratch.  The experienced fine scale modelers don't need anyone to tell them what scale or gauge to build in.  However, it does help to have certain hard to make materials available such as scale rails, trucks, wheels, etc.  We cannot rely upon the large manufacturers to supply these and it is not fair to blame them for not investing in a non-market.  Instead,  we can use forums like this one to help out each other with tips and techniques and to perhaps work together to improve the modeling craft and develop new ways of organizing resources. 

Here is a few examples of what can be done:
1.  Many modelers have left over fine scale parts or can make some using their molds.  What about setting up an internet store that sells these items on consignment?  The store would be responsible for photographing and documenting the part honestly and handling the sale.  The part's owner sets the price and the store takes a small cut to help fund the service.  With a store like this, you could find some of the detail parts you need in stock and have them in a few days.  Those that want to sell parts needn't be bothered with the selling process beyond helping the store to describe and price them.
2.  Set up a searchable database of available resources.  Here people could post their parts, molds, services, experiences with other's parts and services.  Virtually any type of resource could be posted here.  At least that could be the goal.  We are having trouble figuring out how to police and organize it.  How do you make sure the references are still good and how do you keep spam off?  Maybe some kind of cross between Wikipedia and ebay?
3.  Work together to develop new manufacturing techniques so that custom parts can be manufactured in small quantities, economically.  There are a few of us working on this and I think we will eventually get there.  We are making progress in working out a way to machine parts on a CNC  and do it relatively economically instead of molding them.  This is using a CNC milling station to make rapid prototype parts at a fraction of the usual cost.

The manufactured track gauges and scales are what they are.  The modelers themselves are way too independent to be forced into any standard.  Many can't be bothered with forums, emails, or returning phone calls.  It may not be possible to organize anything with this group, but there might be enough fine scalers interested in organizing something that will benefit all modelers.  This fine forum is an example of what a few can get started.  I think there are other similar worthwhile projects waiting in the wings.

Mike