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General Category => Tips, Tricks, Techniques & Tools => Topic started by: finescalerr on May 14, 2015, 01:29:11 AM



Title: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: finescalerr on May 14, 2015, 01:29:11 AM
I guess this is the right place for a very minor announcement: I have resumed work on my AutoCAD drawing of a small Plymouth gas mechanical and, when it is complete, I hope to extrude it in SketchUp and create a 1:32n2 kit for me and a 1:13.7n3 kit for Marty. Yes, I actually have quenched enough of my burnout to resume some hobby activity. When the entire 2-D drawing is complete I'll post an image here ...  and probably start asking for SketchUp assistance. -- Russ


Title: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: Bill Gill on May 14, 2015, 05:05:00 AM
Good going, Russ!


Title: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: Ray Dunakin on May 14, 2015, 08:47:44 PM
Glad to hear that, Russ!


Title: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: marc_reusser on May 15, 2015, 12:28:42 AM
Cool. Look forward to seeing it.


Title: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: lab-dad on May 15, 2015, 05:36:45 AM
Thats GREAT news!
May be now I can help?
One thing though; the BIG one needs to be 1/16n3
(or whatever the heck you call 3/4" to the foot like us "real" modelers model in!)  ;)

-Marty


Title: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: TRAINS1941 on May 15, 2015, 07:32:50 AM
Great news Unc has climbed out of his shell!

Maybe the band might even play a few bars!!

Jerry


Title: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: mad gerald on May 15, 2015, 10:10:12 AM
One thing though; the BIG one needs to be 1/16n3
(or whatever the heck you call 3/4" to the foot like us "real" modelers model in!)  ;)

... I second Marty (1/16!) ...

@Marty
What gauge would that (1/16n3) actually run on (in mm)? 57mm?

Cheers


Title: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: eTraxx on May 24, 2015, 05:32:03 AM
I made something similar in 1:48 and had it printed at Shapeways. Some old pics but they give an idea

Sideframe. i wasn't sure about the bolts so I used brass. I have since figured they would have printed ok.
(http://images59.fotki.com/v791/photos/2/1709102/10374449/SideFrame_Front-vi.jpg)

I used those as a master to make a resin copy. The casting was just on the table-top .. not fancy equipment. The flange details on the end cast fine .. just had trouble with filling the little pockets that made up the bolt heads
(http://images14.fotki.com/v390/photos/2/1709102/10374449/stacked-vi.jpg)

Here they are after cleaning up. The bearing assembly in the center was also 3D printed and the one you see is the resin copy .. and the bolt details were 3D pritned this time
(http://images20.fotki.com/v386/photos/2/1709102/10374449/SFCasting2-vi.jpg)

another look
(http://images55.fotki.com/v648/photos/2/1709102/10374449/finger-vi.jpg)

finished critter. I was happy enough but realized that for really good prints I needed to have a pressure pot to force the resin into the really little details. Still .. was pretty happy with the thing. The 3D printed parts are the front and sides of the chassis .. like the ones you have drawn up and the radiator shell. Everything else is scratched
(http://images42.fotki.com/v663/photos/2/1709102/10374449/stacked-vi.jpg)

.. and what happens when a heavy object falls on your critter .. darn it!
(http://images14.fotki.com/v1505/photos/2/1709102/10374449/wrecked-vi.jpg)


Title: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: eTraxx on May 24, 2015, 05:49:31 AM
Here's how I locked the sides and front on mine



Title: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: Hydrostat on May 24, 2015, 08:55:20 AM
The final two show the frame side(s), front and back.

I have questions:

 1. The little stanchions on the front side probably won't print well in 1:32 scale and I suspect, if I do print them, they should be as separate pieces. Comments please.

Do you mean the little plates inside the coupler/buffer? Which diameter do they have?


 2. To ensure the frame goes together correctly I am thinking about creating matching holes on the ends of the frame sides and the rear of the frame ends. A piece of brass rod could fit into the holes to keep the frame square and the sides accurately spaced. Yes? No? Better idea?

I'd suggest to add an extrusion at the buffer block's sides and a corresponding notch at the side frame. Otherwise the edge won't come out crisp.

(http://www.buntbahn.de/fotos/data/9000/5715buffer.jpg)

It is usefull to have all "solid" parts like the buffer hollow/open, which means only with the necessary wall thickness to save material. In 1:32 you even may print the completely assembled frame?


The sides have a lot of detail. Will the nuts and bolts, lettering, and other parts print cleanly in a scale as small as 1:32? I'm open to any and all comments. Thanks!

Russ

This depends much on the chosen material and alignment during the process. And the procedure itself - remember my telephone. For the nuts and bolts: Add a center punch from the backside at the bolts' positions. This allows you to drill them out in case they don't come clear and you need to replace them with screw imitations.

Just my five cents.

Cheers,
Volker

P.S.: Great to see you model something!


Title: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: lab-dad on May 24, 2015, 09:05:14 AM
Why not make it like Plymouth did?
And use pins behind the bolts or make the bolts as puns below the head?

Does FUD tap?
Just wondering in case i do it in a larger scale.

Marty


Title: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: Chuck Doan on May 24, 2015, 10:25:36 AM
I have not tried the extreme detail from Shapeways yet, but it would be worth trying a first print with the bolt heads in place. And I would likely try to do the whole frame as one piece for simplicity and no alignment issues. You can do like Grandt did and let the wheelsets slip up from the bottom and be retained by plates.

I am sure the material will tap, but there would be no strength in the threads-they would easily strip.


Title: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: finescalerr on May 24, 2015, 12:39:50 PM
Thanks to each of you for your help. Chuck's solution is so elegantly simple I'll try that first. If it fails I will revise the parts and print again.

Marty, I'm designing both 2- and 3-foot gauge models. The 3-foot model is for you.

Russ


Title: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: lab-dad on May 24, 2015, 01:17:09 PM
 ;D ;D ;D ;D

I wonder if the frame in 1/16 will exceed the maximum size.

Marty


Title: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: mabloodhound on May 24, 2015, 01:44:52 PM
Shapeways max size      FUD:284 x 184 x 203mm;  FXD:50 x 50 x 200mm


Title: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: finescalerr on May 25, 2015, 01:05:53 AM
I think it will fit, Marty. The frame is about 150 inches long in 1:1 or something over 9 inches in 1:16. -- Russ


Title: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: marc_reusser on May 27, 2015, 12:01:49 AM
Russ,

It looks pretty acceptable.

I agree with Chuck, do it as one piece. I don't see any reason to have it in multiple pieces (other than for possible print orientation).

Those tiny "cross-pins" in the side-frame bolts....or whatever those are, definitely wont print well. O would also consider leaving those same round bolts/fasteners off completely, (they are round and very visible...and will be tough to clean)..and instead just do recessed round holes in the side-frame, where one can insert styrene or brass rod to make those fasteners.

I would recommend not doing the frames as a solid....on the large scale especially, but even on the 1/32, the cost of the printing resin will kill you. I would instead some kind of a raised reinforcing grid/structure/web to prevent wall deformation.


Title: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: finescalerr on May 27, 2015, 01:08:22 AM
Thanks for the feedback. I will make the adjustments to the final drawing. Those "cross pins" seem to be rotating fasteners to hold the hood in place. Most such locos soon lost the hood but the fasteners remained. -- Russ


Title: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: finescalerr on May 27, 2015, 05:32:58 PM
It took forever but I finally finished the radiator. (I am very clumsy with SketchUp.) -- Russ


Title: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: jacq01 on May 28, 2015, 02:01:26 AM

  Only with Sketchup ????????  ;) ;)


Title: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: lab-dad on May 28, 2015, 06:38:24 AM
Looking damn sweet!!!!!

What happened inside the frame? you filled it in!?!?!

The lines on the radius areas of the side-frames will need to be erased too (I think)

Will the radiator be a separate part? (please)
And the guard?
What will the core be? printed? separate? mesh?...???

-Marty


Title: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: finescalerr on May 28, 2015, 01:03:52 PM
I temporarily put a "deck" between the side frames but will open up the center when I figure out how Plymouth actually built the loco's engine compartment. That filled-in section is on the same layer as the radiator. The idea would be to create the frame as one part, the radiator as another, the hood another, and the cab (or cab walls) yet another (presumably with positionable doors).

The radiator guard might be too fragile to print separately or even at all. The 1:1 scale strips that make it up are only about 1 1/4 inches deep by 3/16 thick. I'm sure one of the guys will help us with that issue.

The radiator core is recessed. The idea would be to cut a screen to fit the recess. It would be much too fine to print.

These sub-assemblies are actually a "rough draft". Some "correct" dimensions will have to be enlarged prior to printing and some details created by hand. It might also be necessary to break down the "kit" into more sub-assemblies. Once the drawing is finished, our panel of experts will help turn it into a kit.

Russ


Title: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: Chuck Doan on May 28, 2015, 09:14:25 PM
Very neat stuff you guys are doing.  Russ, really good to see your work. Both of you get your merit badges!


Title: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: finescalerr on June 01, 2015, 10:18:11 PM
Here's the basic Plymouth DL drawing. It's 1:1 and many parts are one inch across, probably too small to print in 1:32. I will create a "kit" by breaking down the drawing, modifying whatever is necessary, and preparing it for print.

Marty and I will collaborate but we need a lot of help from you geniuses. For example, we'd need to know the best way to break down the model into printable sub-assemblies, what parts we must make by hand, how to create those little hood stanchions where the "cylinder" is 1 inch diameter and the "handle" is about 3/8-inch, whether the nuts and bolts will print properly (some will be pretty tiny), and a million other things.

Anyway, it's a start ... and long overdue.

Russ


Title: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: Ray Dunakin on June 01, 2015, 10:36:14 PM
Looking good!


Title: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: lab-dad on June 02, 2015, 08:13:57 AM
That looks GREAT!
I think the "details" should be separate and just dimples for their location.
Even in 1/16 I would install them as separate parts.

I think it is time to start a separate thread for this project.

Lots of the strapping could be fab'd out of strip stock.

-Marty


Title: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: Chuck Doan on June 02, 2015, 08:52:41 PM
That is such a good looking locomotive. Great job bringing it to life.

I would do the frame as a one piece assy and the rest probably like Grandt did his Plymouth.

The cab needs to be thought of for interior painting. Maybe make interior angle iron corners so the pieces could be joined after painting with hidden joints?

I would choose a test scale and try a piece with most of the detail on it to see how well it will print. Maybe just one frame side or the radiator. One test is worth a hundred guesses, and then you will know if adding details might be better. Besides, it is pretty neat to get your first print back.



Title: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: Chuck Doan on June 02, 2015, 09:12:56 PM
(http://media.fotki.com/1_p,rrtwdrtrkrrwtqsxttwtggwwkwwf,vi/wrrtdtwdrxrkdqsbtsqxsqwfqqbdq/9/777399/10366138/Assem1-vi.jpg)

Consider this an R and D project. You will not get it right the first time. Once you get the parts back you will start to see other, hopefully better ways to do it. When I did my first frame, I left off the gussets thinking they would be too thin. As soon as I got the frame I realized it was going to be a challenge to glue thin gussets on with enough strength. So I made a new frame with the gussets...much better, and stronger too. I also realized I should have cast each of my pedestals and journal boxes as a single part instead of 3 pieces. The beauty is that you haven't spent hours fabricating, and just redo it and print again. 

 


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: lab-dad on June 04, 2015, 03:30:41 PM
Well I received the files from Russ yesterday and have been playing around and thinking..........

I took all his hard work apart  ::)
And now have just the frame.

I also changed the protruding rods to indentations for pins out of other material.
I have concerns for the thin cross section on the tops of the frame and between the big bolts. I wonder if these would even print in 1/32?
In addition I added angular support pieces from the sides to the ends, just didnt look like enough "meat" there for me.
And I deepened the recess for the axles - I'm planning on brass/bronze bearings in there eventually.

I have also mentioned using sheet material for the cab.
I dont think a "printed" cab would be a scale thickness and if it was i doubt it would stay flat. For those who want to build one in 1/32 may be they can get together and have a cab done from photoetch. I will scratch mine. :o

I still want to see what we can do about removing material from the printed sides to save in printing costs - I was thinking removing an area equivalent to a styrene "C" channel?

Definitely need to put this thing on weight watchers!
For giggles I uploaded it to shapeways
In frosted ultra detail it is $679.00! (1/16th scale = 9.23" long)
Too big for extreme.

Thats enough for now, sorry it was so long winded...........

-Marty


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: Chuck Doan on June 04, 2015, 08:59:43 PM
Ouch! The later Grandt Plymouth frames also has the insides thinned out. Might consider allowing for a piece(s) of brass shape that could glue in for stiffening. Then glue a thin piece of styrene or even a printed profile that would make the frames look like a solid thickness and fill the joint. Maybe make the journal parts separate so they could be printed in the extreme detail. Like a cover and not actually doing any hard work.

The frame I showed earlier was about 40 bucks in FUD. 2.5" x 7".  The cab walls would not be hard to make out of sheet styrene, and photo-etch sounds interesting too.


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: lab-dad on June 05, 2015, 02:47:21 PM
I did a little research (having built a Plymouth before  ;) )

The frames are not solid, they are channel like.
I will play with that next.

I "removed" the bearing assembly so I could have it printed separately.
I want mine to be in something harder than FUD.
i also deepened the slot for the axle to .250" (it is already .250 dia.)
Plan is to have a .250" O.D. bearing in there supporting the axle.

For now I am working in 1/16 scale, thats why the tiny measurements.

Marty


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: lab-dad on June 05, 2015, 04:35:36 PM
Could not figure out how to make the side-frames "C" shaped from what Russ had.
So this is where I am at.
I figure I can "print" the parts separately and join them like Plymouth did it.

Problem is; I dont know how to make the top plate like the bottoms.
I tried the "follow me" but cant get it to play nice.
"HELP!"

Marty


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: lab-dad on June 06, 2015, 08:02:56 AM
HA!  ;D
I figured it out!
I just copied the curve, put it on the side below the top and used the push/pull.

Now I have a couple questions for the SU experts.
1) Obviously when Russ drew it the curve on the right has less "segments" than the right.
Will this be an issue?
Is it even fixable?

2) The diagonal lines in the flat planes - I can't erase them without loosing the surface.
Should I be worried?

Marty



Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: lab-dad on June 06, 2015, 10:58:26 AM
moving along...................


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: Chuck Doan on June 06, 2015, 01:15:44 PM
Looking good. Sorry, I don't know anything to help with Sketch-up issues.


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: lab-dad on June 06, 2015, 05:17:18 PM
Thanks Chuck.

Well is this two of a kind or a pair?



Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: Chuck Doan on June 06, 2015, 11:05:39 PM
This whole project is fun to watch. I know you all will figure out whatever comes up.


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: Frederic Testard on June 07, 2015, 02:40:24 AM
Marty

From a math point of view, the problem with the diagonal lines in the flat planes might suggest that in fact the plane is not really a plane, but two triangles with a very slight lack of planarity. So that when you suppress the diagonal, that destroys the two triangles and there isn't a face any more.
Now how this could have happened after a pushpull operation, I really don't know...

Also, I noticed that some holes seem to be open while others (the black ones on the image, for example the one below the T of "PLYMOUTH" on the foreground frame) seem different.


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: Hydrostat on June 07, 2015, 06:02:24 AM
Marty,

great work! I'm not familiar with SU so I can't contribute to construction.
Maybe you can reduce spacing between L and Y in Plymouth; this might be an font issue?

Volker


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: mabloodhound on June 07, 2015, 08:27:06 AM
Marty, when I get a diagonal line like that on a part, I erase the line and then I retrace the rectangular opening with the line tool, thus creating the surface needed.


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: marc_reusser on June 08, 2015, 01:04:58 AM
As Frederic noted the angled line that causes your surface to disappear when erased, means you have coplanar issues..the sides of your bounding box are not in the same plane...this likely happened when you extruded/created the surface.

BTW two easy ways to get the flanges top and bottom:

Option 1:
Select the flat plane of the side-frame > offset inward, the thickness of the flange (you will note that it offsets all the way around ..that's okay) > delete/erase the offset lines at the side-frame ends > draw in the 4 short gaps at top and bottom where end lines were removed (IE...complete the remaining top and bottom lines to the end) > select the flange space > use the push/pull tool to extrude the flange to the distance you want > repeat for other flange.   [If you want a subsequent radiused fillet between the side-frame and flange, you can use the fillet tool to create or extrude one]

Option 2:
Draw the flange in section (including fillet if wanted) > copy and paste the flange section at 90-degrees to the side-frame (top or bottom) > select all the lines along the side-frame edge where you have placed the flange section > select the "follow me" tool and touch/click on the flange section >done [the flange section will extrude itself along the selected lines]  then just repeat process for other flange.


.....there's actually also a third...which is to draw a quick extended rectangular surface off the top of the side-frame (parallel with the side-frame surface)...then use the offset tool to off-set into the side-frame surface....then just do a quick erase of the lines you drew, and any extraneous off-sett lines ...and extrude the offset area [using this approach you don't offset all the sides of the side-frame, but rather, only the one you drew the surface against.


As  to your question of why one curve had more section lines showing than the other....there are likely two reasons for this....

1. the program has gone and "smoothed" one of the curves and not the other...this can happen/occur...it's no big deal...you can select the smoothed curves if you want...then lessen the value of "smoothe" and it will return to its segmented/line state.

2. It could be caused by your coplanar issue...and that curve could be out of plane and parallel.....thus causing it to be made up of polygons rather than rectangles...and the computer has gone and smoothed them for you...in this case the smooth is the least of your problems...the problem is the non coplanar curve surfaces.


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: marc_reusser on June 08, 2015, 01:08:05 AM
Thanks Chuck.

Well is this two of a kind or a pair?



Marty,

Looking at this screen shot...the discolored triangular area in the upper side-frame indicates that that is a non co-planar surface (or a hole in the side-frame, where a non co-planar surface has been deleted.


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: marc_reusser on June 08, 2015, 01:09:37 AM
You also seem to have a hole/lacking a top,  (and thickness) to the cylindrical projections on the side-frame.


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: marc_reusser on June 08, 2015, 01:12:17 AM
Marty

<snip>

Also, I noticed that some holes seem to be open while others (the black ones on the image, for example the one below the T of "PLYMOUTH" on the foreground frame) seem different.

Frederic,

I would venture to guess that the black appearance is caused by the visibility of the  lines/rectangle segments, making up the hole surface....this hole did not get "smoothed" while the others did.


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: marc_reusser on June 08, 2015, 01:26:00 AM
The more I look at this the more planar and parallel issues appear....and studying them, they all go back to the way that you created the offset line for the top flange (by copying the existing line and pasting it next to the other one) this will never work properly ...because the curves will not allow themselves to be truly parallel....which in turn throws off wall/spacing thickness (as can be seen in those areas)...and it will/can cause the non-coplanar issues you are having.

The biggest problem with this, is that this will only propagate and cause more problems as you go along....yes you might be able to do work-arounds...and close up holes and gaps...but it takes a ton of work and effort, and half the time it when you erase something, a surface will disappear or something odd will happen, that need to be fixed and fiddled with...and it will also print out of square and flat (meaning potential parts fit uses, and layers/stepping on what should be flat surfaces)....the only way to fix this is to go all the way back to the beginning and do the flanges properly, so you do not start creating no-coplanar surfaces.


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: lab-dad on June 08, 2015, 06:49:13 AM
Thanks Marc!
Thats why Unc wanted to do this project "on line" so we could all learn.
I need to look into the "fillet" tool as i would like a fillet on all the edges.

No big deal to redo the parts, I can do a sideframe in about an hour now!

-Marty


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: TRAINS1941 on June 08, 2015, 07:28:47 AM
Looks great so far Marty.

Jerry


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: Franck Tavernier on June 08, 2015, 11:00:04 AM
Hi Marty, Russ,

Is it a 7 or 8 ton model? I'm working on a freelance gas loco in 1:35 scale, inspired by the RLD 3.3 ton :

(http://media.fotki.com/1_p,rrtsbqbwksdrfwrxfbttgkrdbbqw,vi/fwqtkwgdbxssqrtwrstxfrqrdgbq/0/1222910/8059327/photo-vi.jpg)

Do you think that it would be possible to print it in 1:35?

Franck


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: finescalerr on June 08, 2015, 12:42:58 PM
Ours is an 8 ton model, Franck. By the way, I think Chuck has drawn a Plymouth similar in appearance to the loco you posted.

As for printing, as I drew the loco I realized it has many parts too small or thin to print in 1:32 (or 1:35). That is why we have started this thread -- to learn what we can print, what we must scratchbuild, and what we must modify.

Russ


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: Chuck Doan on June 08, 2015, 03:42:53 PM
Mine was a different freelanced design, but Bill Gould has some gorgeous plans for this (or a similar) loco to the one in Francks plan:

http://www.gouldstudios.com/loco_PlymouthGas.html

If I could render like Bill or Wayne Rayner, I would probably give up real models altogether.



Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: Franck Tavernier on June 09, 2015, 03:55:32 AM
Chuck, if I'm not mistaken, you can buy the 3D drawing from Gould Studio...

http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/gas-mechanical-contractor-s-locomotive-3d-obj/542868

Franck


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: finescalerr on June 09, 2015, 12:32:34 PM
If I could render like that I'd probably stop building, too. Bill's weathered rendering isn't quite up to the unweathered version but the work is still impressive. -- Russ


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: lab-dad on June 09, 2015, 12:36:44 PM
You cant play with renderings.
It's much more satisfying to see an idea move and function.

Marty - still not sold on this 3d stuff....


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: Frederic Testard on June 09, 2015, 12:56:11 PM
I agree, Marty. That becomes a totally different game.


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: finescalerr on June 10, 2015, 01:18:30 AM
Well, better, worse, or equal, I still intend to create an actual model from my drawing. Two, actually, because SketchUp has frustrated Marty and he has assigned me the job of creating the kits. I hope to talk to Marty over the weekend about how to break the thing into practical subassemblies and then, when my drawings get all messed up, ask you guys for help! -- Russ


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: marc_reusser on June 15, 2015, 02:22:59 AM
Side-frames for 1/32 (wall thickness are prototype 1"...which scales out to somewhere between .025 and .030")


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: marc_reusser on June 15, 2015, 03:01:44 AM
A basic render of Russ' SU file before the interior side-frame changes. The render really shows what a great job Russ did in the drafting/modeling of the loco.


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: marc_reusser on June 15, 2015, 03:58:19 AM
Multi-part frame approach.

I would probably go so far as to omit the frame assembly bolts from the printing file, and then just add them with the proper NBW castings after.


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: lab-dad on June 15, 2015, 05:58:42 AM
Those look amazing!  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Did you use Russ' original files to start with or start over?
What plug in did you use for the rendering?
Please tell us more!
Are they ready for printing?
Could they be scaled up to 1/16th?

Only suggestion would be to make the inside support for the axle/bearings as thick as the horse shoe shaped projection - just for strength but that is just being picky and over engineering!

-Marty


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: Mr Potato Head on June 15, 2015, 08:22:02 AM
Russ
when your complete I'd love a copy and or please order me one from shapeways  ;D ;D ;D
MPH


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: finescalerr on June 15, 2015, 01:26:30 PM
Marc sent me the complete loco image last night and it completely blows me away. He says (if we ever can trust anything Marc says) he just rendered my original drawing but he turned around one loco so a single image shows both front and back views. He reworked the frame sides and ends for kit production and is responsible for the clever and beautiful engineering we see in the other two renderings.

I can't tell you guys how impressed I am with what you can do in SketchUp. This is amazing.

Marty -- Marc is creating the actual model so it will work for 1:32. That means it will be twice as durable and look just as good in 1:16.

Gil -- Of course you can have a copy of the model. So can anyone else (except maybe Nick who still should be standing in the corner ... but I might even make an exception for him and offer a 1:35 version).

Remember, though: MARC is the kit engineer. I could never figure out how to do that by myself.

Russ


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: Mr Potato Head on June 15, 2015, 03:03:33 PM
Thanks Unc
I appreciate it, as of Today I'm in good standing with Marc, but as you know it's a day to day, I'll keep my fingers crossed
MPH


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: marc_reusser on June 15, 2015, 04:38:18 PM
Thanks for the kind words guys. I honestly did not do a lot here; for the rendering of the two locos, I just used Russ' SU model right out of the box, so to speak (yes I did "flip" one of the locos so you could see the rear. I actually later discovered that "flipping" the model was incorrect, as there was a difference in each side with the bonnet support brackets, and should have rotated it instead....this was corrected after the rendering)....other than that everything you see is the result of Russ' wonderful 3D build.

The renders were all done using the Maxwell Render plug-in for SU....There are others that SU recommends/pushes, as well as free/open source ones like Kerkythea, which can do the same...and more, and are probably easier to use...but for me with what I need, and the way I like to work (and the way my mind works :) ) I like Maxwell.

For the ground surface I used/applied a "diffuse " color surface (RAL 9011 Diffuse Graphite Black) [in Maxwell there is a wide color range of these available as .MXM files...the colors can also be tweeked/adjusted once inserted into the render].

For the "environment" I used a free downloaded .HDR file; in this case it was a "3-panel light standard height" set-up. This basically mimics the lighting a professional photographer would be able to do in a studio (remember, this file/drawing is life size...so the HDR set up is like in a large studio space)....the three lights/panels can then be rotated and elevated by adjustments in the render set-up. (NOTE...this is not like setting up/placing lights into the actual model. This is an external HDR file that functions and adjusts as a whole..it is completely separate from, and has nothing to do with the model itself. Think of drawing three rectangles on the inside of a paper cylinder/shape...placing it over your plastic model....and then rotating and elevating this shape over and around your model). The intensities and colors of the lights can all be a adjusted...but it is basically only an extrapolation of the HDR file as a whole. The overall intensity  of the whole scene can also be adjusted (sim to camera exposure).  There are also many other camera ajdustments , f-stop, DOF, tilt shift, bokeh, aperture, etc, etc.

For the model itself, I applied another .MXM file to the "material" (what the surfaces are composed of)....in this case I used "Grey Lego Plastic" and adjusted the color and the smoothness to suit my needs.

The render times vary depending on the complexity of the model, the environment, the materials, lighting, SL (I ran these to about 17.5), etc, etc.....though your biggest determining factor is going to be your machine/computer. For me, these renders run fairly quickly...the overall loco render took about 60 min. (I am running Dell T-3600 workstation with dual quad-core XEON E5-1650 (3.2GHz) processors, 32GB RAM, STS drive, and 64-bit OS.)

I really didn't do much on the frame pieces...I was not trying to engineer anything special, just see how the most basic parts fit/assembly could be done. It took about 45 mins of work to hollow them out and separate out the parts etc. The biggest slow-down in this was that I had to manually erase, clean and build a lot of little areas....not due to Russ' modeling...but due to the way the model was set-up/built. So many of the parts seem to have been carefully and individually modeled, rather than being done as groups and components. (That would be my only critique looking at/working with, the model.)

The frame pieces as drawn should be ready for printing (though I do need to talk to Russ and go through some ideas/questions/clarifications...since I have no Plymouth knowledge whatsoever). I want to make sure that this will accommodate a motor (a model motor....not one to make it run), and if so how did the braces, mounts look, etc..etc.

...and no, no, no.....I am not the engineer :D...I was merely goofing around and looking at this, as to how I would set it up, were I to print and build this, based on my feelings for, and experiences with, 3D printing. My approach is one of a stripped down basic form/shell where all the small surface details (NBW's) and possibly even some of the metal banding are not printed...but applied afterwards. I also am looking at it from the point that some items would be better done as laser cut and/or as PE......this is all based largely upon my feelings about surface and edge printing in 3D..and the idea/concept of appropriate material for the purpose intended....though this latter will probably not be something that can be addressed too much as I know people expect/want as much of a shake the box approach as possible when paying for 3D.







Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: marc_reusser on June 15, 2015, 04:50:41 PM
Gill, your standing with me has no bearing...it's Russ' model/project. I am just goofing with it and sending whatever Russ wants back to him to use/do with, as he sees fit. :)
(Though I might just keep a copy and modify it to print in 1/24, so that I can thoroughly annoy a certain person :D )


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: marc_reusser on June 15, 2015, 05:02:02 PM
Marty, The frame should work for 1/16....and be ridged enough. what I drew was based on Russ' comment about a 1/32 static model shell, as I know NOTHING about doing a running engine, and what specialty mount and fitting locations would be needed...especially so at a large scale. I actually think that the shell/wall thickness could be further reduced for 1/16" scale....as it is, it will print close to .030 thick in 1/32...so in 1/16" that would be around .060...and that is a LOT of resin to print. :) 

...and I have absolutely no idea what the real interior of the side and end frames looks like. :D  I am wondering if there needs to be a flat sheet part/insert designed/printed that flushes them out on the inside.


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: Ray Dunakin on June 15, 2015, 09:06:35 PM
Wow, that looks fantastic!


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: Franck Tavernier on June 16, 2015, 05:02:42 AM
Marc, Russ amazing work!

Could you print it in 1:35 scale?

I'm working on freelance model, but inspired by the Plymouth RLD...3.3 ton / 4 ton...and Katoworks...

(http://media.fotki.com/1_p,rrttkrksgftgwfrxfbttgkrdbbqw,vi/fwqtkwgdbxskfgkttdwxrtdsggwsk/0/1222910/13734521/photo-vi.jpg)

(http://media.fotki.com/1_p,rrttktwssrksqgkxfbttgkrdbbqw,vi/wrrtdtwdrxwstbrdkqbxrtqgrtqk/0/1222910/13734521/photo-vi.jpg)

(http://media.fotki.com/1_p,rrttkrkrswbqskdxfbttgkrdbbqw,vi/wrqfwtgqbxswtqbtdrdxgkbrfgwk/0/1222910/13734521/photo-vi.jpg)

(http://media.fotki.com/1_p,rrttkrkrttfwktqxfbttgkrdbbqw,vi/bwsqrwrtqxswfbrrbkkxtdbbbqbs/0/1222910/13734521/photo-vi.jpg)

(http://media.fotki.com/1_p,rrttktwqdrtdrgwxfbttgkrdbbqw,vi/wqbfqsggbxwrqfwtgqbxrbrdtgggs/0/1222910/13734521/photo1-vi.jpg)

(http://media.fotki.com/1_p,rrttktwwrsbdkrdxfbttgkrdbbqw,vi/wgtbwqwssxwwgddrsrtxsdfwwkrbs/0/1222910/13734521/photo-vi.jpg)

(http://media.fotki.com/1_p,rrttktwwbdtsfsrxfbttgkrdbbqw,vi/stkgrdksfxwsffrbtgdxdbqfqdfk/0/1222910/13734521/photo-vi.jpg)

(http://media.fotki.com/1_p,rrttkrktqwtqgtqxfbttgkrdbbqw,vi/rtftwsbfxrkgkfkkgsxwqbfqsggb/0/1222910/13734521/photo-vi.jpg)

(http://media.fotki.com/1_p,rrttkrkttfkrkfbxfbttgkrdbbqw,vi/ftbqbksgsxttwkwktsbxswtffstst/0/1222910/13734521/photo-vi.jpg)

7The last one is the model from the Sandy River and Rangeley Lakes Railroad, but probably a 7 or 8 ton...

(http://industrialrail.5u.com/images/plymouth-locomotive-dlb--d.jpg)

(http://industrialrail.5u.com/images/plymouth-locomotive-flh--f.jpg)

(http://industrialrail.5u.com/images/pkymouth-locomotive-rl.jpg)



Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: marc_reusser on June 16, 2015, 05:47:19 AM
Yes, it should be printable in 1/35...the differences in scale are not so great to affect the side frame tolerances. Other areas should be printable in either scale as well.

Cool project you have planned there btw. If I recall you have been wanting to get one of those built for a while now.


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: lab-dad on June 16, 2015, 06:04:24 AM
Kool stuff Marc!

As far as the inside i think what you and I have done is pretty darn close.
in some of the shots in one of my Plymouth ads you can see that the frame is basically a "C" channel. I think the chords at 1" thick are about right.

I have never seen any frame drawings or dimensions, may be Russ can chime in since he has Bobs drawings.

As far as the motor or engine mounting I think the frame is good to go.
I agree about adding the NBW's in any scale.
Engine mounts would have been attached to the frame. Straps and cross-members.

For me I expect to do much of the sheet metal and strapping out of brass (if I can).
All I "need" is the frame, bearing thingies and the radiator.

It would be great if a couple guys in several scales were to order the parts from shapeways.

-Marty


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: lab-dad on June 16, 2015, 09:15:57 AM
Here are some line drawings i found of the buda engines.
I also have a couple photos.
The cylinder bore is 5" so we should be able to scale these drawings and get close.


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: finescalerr on June 16, 2015, 12:37:16 PM
Marty, I am very unfamiliar with engines of any kind and couldn't turn those plans into a 3-D drawing. One thing is clear: Drawing that motor would be three or four times more difficult and time consuming than drawing the entire Plymouth! Maybe two or three of us could break it into components, work together, and combine the parts into a finished design. -- Russ


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: marc_reusser on June 17, 2015, 01:51:48 AM
Thanks for the info and pics Marty!
Yeah....I know about as much about engines, as Russ...and unfortunately (or maybe in my case fortunately) I don't really have the time to do a 3D of the engine.....I will wait til Gordon scratchbuilds one then whine till he makes, and sends me, a resin casting. :D

For a static model there is always the stripped bay covered with blue tarp option :D :P

I don't know about in 1/16...but I don't think the engine printed in 1/32 would be clean/crisp/detailed enough....and all those nooks and crannies would require a crazy amount of surface clean-up. I would say one is better if scratching it out of styrene.


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: marc_reusser on June 17, 2015, 01:59:58 AM
Russ...I think the cab would be better if done out ol thin resin inpregnated board as a laser cut assembly. It's all flat panels and straps. Maybe drop Dave at Vector cut a line and see what he feels about it....and what the cost would be (pretty sure it would be a good bit less than 3D printed.


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: finescalerr on June 17, 2015, 12:40:24 PM
Good idea, and one I'd never have thought of. Thanks. -- Russ


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: Franck Tavernier on June 21, 2015, 02:07:18 PM
A new one..

(http://media.fotki.com/1_p,rrtfsswrrktbrsqxfbttgkrdbbqw,vi/gkbrfgwkxrbtwwdffsxwrqfwtgqb/0/1222910/13734521/photo2-vi.jpg)


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: Bill Gill on June 22, 2015, 06:23:17 AM
Russ, Marty & Marc, Great collaboration! I've been following this project silently, not knowing enough about any of it to comment coherently, but your combined results speak for themselves!


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: darrylhuffman on June 25, 2015, 07:06:09 AM
You guys are amazing.


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: lab-dad on June 25, 2015, 08:23:06 AM
So who is gonna be the first to hit the "PRINT" button?
So we can see if this is going to be feasible?

I tried working on the radiator; to make it useful in 1/16" (solid) and be printable but gave up.
I think the outside should be printed but the "core" made differently.

-Mj


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: finescalerr on June 25, 2015, 12:39:28 PM
Marty (and everyone else), I was thinking about keeping the core "solid" (thin walls each side), painting that area black, and applying screen over the painted area. Maybe it would look better with a few layers of screen instead of a "solid" center but I can't remember whether such a radiator would have a "see-through" quality.

A much more difficult problem would be the radiator guard. Even with a bar stock thickness of 1/2-inch it probably would be much too thin to print in metal. Perhaps it could be laser cut ... but what material?

Russ


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: lab-dad on June 26, 2015, 08:48:35 AM
I dont know how to print or draw the file so shapeways would print the "inside" of the radiator hollow.

I also think the radiator is not quite "right" (the tanks) but I need to look into this further....

I "was" planning on doing the guard out of brass strip, but even at 1/16th that is still pretty thin. Unfortunately it is thick in the wrong dimension.

I will be interested to see what suggestions we get for the 1/32 version.
FWIW the guard is .040" x .012" in 1/32 according to measurements from Unc's 1:1 drawing.

Mj


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: Lawton Maner on June 26, 2015, 07:08:50 PM
Marty:

     The Staples here in Williamsburg, Va has an entry level 3D printer set up as a demo.  With a couple of larger solid pieces they crank out, the interior is printed as a hollow honeycomb.  Quick way to get strength and volume without breaking the bank on consumables.  Occasionally, one can see a stray thread crossing the interior of the honeycomb, so it isn't necessary to get it 100% on the inside.


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: lab-dad on June 26, 2015, 07:52:49 PM
Thats the way the one at work prints using abs melted to form the shapes.
The resolution is not high enough for our needs even in 1/16.

I did a foundation in 1/32 for Jerry that looked good
but being "rough" made it look like formed concrete.

Mj


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: Franck Tavernier on June 28, 2015, 01:53:58 AM
I think in 1:32, you will not succeed to have thicknesses to scale for the guard. Furthermore, the resin may be too fragile and brittle!

A Plymouth DL type

(http://media.fotki.com/1_p,rrtkqrsfbgtgrbdxfbttgkrdbbqw,vi/rgdbtrwkgxwrrtdtwdrxrtftwsbf/0/1222910/13747293/photo-vi.jpg)

The guard

(http://media.fotki.com/1_p,rrtkqrsgwtdwqftxfbttgkrdbbqw,vi/ftwgwdgkxkftkbftgbxrqkbrswfb/0/1222910/13747293/photo-vi.jpg)

Interior cab will be probably like this

(http://media.fotki.com/1_p,rrtkqrsgrwdtgrqxfbttgkrdbbqw,vi/sqwfqqbdqxrrsswdfdtxftbqbksgs/0/1222910/13747293/photo-vi.jpg)

(http://media.fotki.com/1_p,rrtkqrsgtkdktqfxfbttgkrdbbqw,vi/tdtrwsqfxwqbfqsggbxrtrdgrtdw/0/1222910/13747293/photo-vi.jpg)

Franck


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: marc_reusser on July 04, 2015, 10:02:38 PM
Sorry I haven't gotten back to here for a while life and work have been very crazy.

Russ, if you want me to sent you that parts file so you can print it as a test I can do so. If you want when I get a moment I can scale it down and put it on a sprue...or you can. Let me know.


Title: Re: The SketchUp Plymouth DL
Post by: lab-dad on July 27, 2015, 04:29:07 PM
Marc,
I'll take whatever you got!
-Marty