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General Category => Modellers At Work => Topic started by: Hauk on February 15, 2014, 06:51:31 PM



Title: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on February 15, 2014, 06:51:31 PM
After a rather serious distraction in H0 I have finally started on some cars to hang behind the twin blue tincans presented in another thread.

I have probably shown the prototype in another thread, but I am at loss finding this thread so here it is again:

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/kisvogn2.jpg)

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/kisvogn_w.jpg)

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/WH_kisvogn.jpg)

A lot of time have been spent testing different 3D printer services for producing the bodies, but I have finally realised that I want the cars to be strictly metal and wood as the prototype. Some of the parts will be etched brass, others cast and a few will be  milled on a CNC-router similiar to the Fridtjof has shown in another thread.

So far I have milled end beams for three cars in 2mm brass:


(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/endebjelke_frest_04_w.jpg)

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/endebjelke_frest_05_w.jpg)

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/endebjelke_frest_06_w.jpg)

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/endebjelke_frest_07_w.jpg)

Note the brass Shapeways shown in another thread. In my opinion it looks acceptable in this somewhat larger context, and I think it will look even better on the finished car.

-Hauk


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Ray Dunakin on February 15, 2014, 07:08:18 PM
Very nice, and a good-looking prototype.



Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on February 15, 2014, 07:30:53 PM
Very nice, and a good-looking prototype.

Thanks for the response!

It was about time that I started this project, I had the wheels for the project custom-made over ten years ago!

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/s_grafikk/hjul2.jpg)



Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Juke Joint on February 15, 2014, 07:57:37 PM
After a rather serious distraction in H0 I have finally started on some cars to hang behind the twin blue tincans presented in another thread.

I have probably shown the prototype in another thread, but I am at loss finding this thread so here it is again:

-Hauk

Your thread is here: http://www.finescalerr.com/smf/index.php?topic=979.0 and glad your back at it. Looks wonderful Hauk!

Philip


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hydrostat on February 16, 2014, 02:14:10 AM
What an interesting prototype! I like the position of the wheelsets close to the wagon's ends. Your modeling looks very good, especially the fine wheelsets/flanges. The spokes are white metal? How did you make the insulation?

Volker


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on February 16, 2014, 04:16:10 AM
After a rather serious distraction in H0 I have finally started on some cars to hang behind the twin blue tincans presented in another thread.

I have probably shown the prototype in another thread, but I am at loss finding this thread so here it is again:

-Hauk

Your thread is here: http://www.finescalerr.com/smf/index.php?topic=979.0 and glad your back at it. Looks wonderful Hauk!

Philip

Thanks for the link and the kind words! So many forums, so many threads... Its easy to loose track!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on February 16, 2014, 05:15:49 AM
There is only one forum and it surpasses the others: This one!

Your car and wheels look very good. I am glad to see you back at work on this model.

If you continue to post macro photos of your fingers, it might be prudent to invest in a manicure ....

Russ


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on February 16, 2014, 07:19:23 AM
What an interesting prototype! I like the position of the wheelsets close to the wagon's ends. Your modeling looks very good, especially the fine wheelsets/flanges. The spokes are white metal? How did you make the insulation?

Volker

Unfortunately, The wheelsets are not made by me. They were custom-built for me by Erik Olsen, a very talented Danish model builder.

He has written a very comprehensive article on wheel building:
http://www.modelbaneteknik.dk/model/vogn/hjul.htm

Unfortunately, this article is only available in Danish, but try google translate.

There are several other interesting articles on his website, many of them in English:
http://www.modelbaneteknik.dk/model/index-e.htm



Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Peter_T1958 on February 16, 2014, 11:06:39 AM
Hi Hauk

Your car and and in particular your brass coupler look very good. Even if I was not that much exited with Railroad stuff until now, projects like these draw me more and more into their spell...

A lot of time have been spent testing different 3D printer services for producing the bodies, but I have finally realised that I want the cars to be strictly metal and wood as the prototype. -Hauk

Your words are close to my heart. Sometimes for me it isn't possible to do so, but I prefere the "just as you would with the original-way" (Sorry, I found no better word :-\).

Cheers, Peter





Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Chuck Doan on February 16, 2014, 08:10:01 PM
Excellent start. And a great looking prototype!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on February 23, 2014, 02:57:37 PM
One of the things I have given a lot of tought is how to construct the wooden boxes for the ore.
As already shown on this forum I have tried two different 3D printers and a lasercut box.

Not satisfied with any of them, I thought more and more about building them board by board. But an interesting detail is that the prototype used tongue and groove. 

So today I tried to mill some T&G  into Kappler O-scale 1X6.

First, I made a pulling gate out of some scrap Corian and brass.

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/not_fjeder_07.jpg)

Why two slots? Well, the first was not thight enough, so I narrowed the second one a little bit. Still needed a piece of tape to get it right.

Then I milled the T&G´s by pulling the stripwood through the gate. I could mill the groove in one 0.5mm (0,02") deep pass using a 0,4mm (0,016")endmill. I was a bit conserened that the tiny endmill would break, but with the spindle going 32000RPM I could hardly feel any resistance when pulling the stripwood past the mill.

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/not_fjeder_08.jpg)

Here are the results:

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/not_fjeder_06.jpg)

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/not_fjeder_03.jpg)

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/not_fjeder_04.jpg)

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/not_fjeder_09.jpg)

I think I will go strictly wood and metal for this project, so the hardware for the box will probably be brass castings.

(Sorry about the thumbs Russ!)


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: artizen on February 23, 2014, 03:51:31 PM
Sometimes this forum just gets scary with the level of artistry achieved!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Gordon Ferguson on February 23, 2014, 04:21:14 PM
Now that is impressive.

Can some of us put an order in for some T&G, please


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Chuck Doan on February 23, 2014, 06:50:42 PM
Oh man!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Ray Dunakin on February 23, 2014, 07:00:59 PM
Incredible!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hydrostat on February 24, 2014, 02:05:54 AM
Simply: Wow!

What sort of wood is that?

Volker


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on February 24, 2014, 02:32:53 AM
Simply: Wow!

What sort of wood is that?

Volker

Thanks for all the interest in my little experiment!

The wood is regular Kappler H0 scale 4X12. Actual dimension is around 1,2mm X 3,5mm.

I would have prefered a somewhat harder wood with less grain. I have used birch with great results on some other projects. Perhaps it is time to get a Byrnes table saw and start ripping my own stripwood.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on February 24, 2014, 03:34:22 AM
You are truly a craftsman. Most satisfactory. -- Russ


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hydrostat on February 24, 2014, 04:09:44 AM
Thanks, Hauk, I've read the "Kappler" - but what kind of wood/tree is it?

Volker


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on February 24, 2014, 04:12:48 AM
Thanks, Hauk, I've read the "Kappler" - but what kind of wood/tree is it?

Volker

To my knowledge it is American Basswood.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: greenie on February 24, 2014, 05:57:20 AM
If anybody is interested in an excellent wood that has virtually NO grain, then look no further than any of the different species of MYRTLE.

You can sand it to an excellent finish before painting, you can turn it, drill it, carve it, even use a Dremel with a dentists bur and the wood stays together, no splintering or cracking.

You have to do something really bad to destroy this stuff, it is a hard wood, but it's one of the softer varieties of the hard wood family.

The worst that I can do to it, is if  I let my fingernails grow too long and when you squeeze the timber to hold onto it while attacking it with a file, then you can leave fingernail marks in the surface.

So instead of using any timber that has a god awful grain in it, go try this stuff -------------- MYRTLE, --- you will be amazed ::) ::)

regards  greenie 


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on February 24, 2014, 01:40:21 PM
Richard Christ introduced me to Swiss Pear several years ago. I think it's qualities would be quite similar to those of Myrtle but it may be slightly softer. -- Russ


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: artizen on February 24, 2014, 03:51:48 PM
I have a lemon-scented myrtle tree in the front yard. Its only about 4 metres high at the moment so it won't get chopped any time soon to make models!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: lab-dad on February 24, 2014, 04:42:56 PM
Hauk,
Beautiful machine work!!!

Greenie,
Where do we find myrtle?

-Mj


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: TRAINS1941 on February 24, 2014, 07:13:22 PM
Hauk,
Beautiful machine work!!!

Greenie,
Where do we find myrtle?  http://www.realoregongift.com/Craftsman_Hobbyists_/craftsman_hobbyists_.html
Also sent you an email!!!!

-Mj

Jerry


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Lawton Maner on February 24, 2014, 09:52:50 PM
Once you get the Byrnes Saw, you'll wonder why you waited so long.  Get the micrometer attachment and 0" clearance insets at the same time and your model making will advance quickly.  With practice you can repeat almost all of the same things you can do on a large saw on it.  My only wish is that mine was able to take a dado head.

Victor Machine in NYC (http://www.victornet.com/index.html) has very affordable metal cutting blades which fit it as well as a broad supply of metal working tools which are quite useful.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: greenie on February 24, 2014, 10:07:20 PM

Greenie,
Where do we find myrtle?  http://www.realoregongift.com/Craftsman_Hobbyists_/craftsman_hobbyists_.html
Also sent you an email!!!!

-Mj

Jerry
[/quote]

Sorry Jerry, wrong type/species of tree.

Here's the one I use --------  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothofagus_cunninghamii
                              --------  http://www.tastimber.tas.gov.au/SpeciesDetailsGeneral.aspx?SpeciesID=4
                              --------  http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/tasmanian-myrtle/
                              --------  https://www.google.com.au/search?q=tasmanian+myrtle&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=5gwMU7eYDoePlQXt4YCoBw&ved=0CCwQsAQ&biw=1823&bih=986

As you can see, it has virtually NO ugly out of scale pores in the surface, it can be used from 1/12th scale, all the way down to 1/75th, and still look as if it's true to scale.
I do not know of any other wood species, that has this marvellous property. If trying to use Oak for 1/35th scale, then the open pores in the timber make it look ridiculous and way out of scale.
This stuff does not have pores that look ridiculous, in any scale.

Here's where I acquire my supplies from,

                              --------  http://www.brittontimbers.com.au/timbers
                              --------  http://www.brittontimbers.com.au/timber/tasmanian-myrtle

It is called Beech Myrtle or Myrtle Beech as well, not sure of what species of this type of timber that you would have in the Northern Hemisphere.

It's used for furniture mainly, sometimes for flooring, but to me it's a bit soft for flooring as it will mark, can't imagine what a polished floor would look like, after a set of stiletto heels had been across/over it. :o

If anybody has a Wholesale Timber merchant nearby, then possibly go have a chat with some knowledgable person who works there, it might be the way to go. ::)

I buy it in 6 foot lengths of 8 x 3 inches and ask them to check out the grain so it's all straight, both ways. I have to pay a tad extra for this service, but I don't waste as much by trying to chase the grain on my bandsaw. I rough it out to a bit oversize and then shove it through a thickness sander I made specially for the job. You can keep shoving the timber through the sander and eventually get it down to about 0.010", so thin you can hold it up to the light and see through it.
I'm sold on this stuff and it's all I use. ;D


regards  greenie


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Ray Dunakin on February 25, 2014, 12:15:34 PM
Here are a couple sites in the US that sell "Tasmanian rose (or pink) myrtle"

http://www.woodworkerssource.com/myrtle_tasmanian.html (http://www.woodworkerssource.com/myrtle_tasmanian.html)

http://www.hearnehardwoods.com/hardwoods/exotic_hardwoods/exotic_wood/tasmanian_rose_myrtle_lumber/tasmanian_rose_myrtle_wood.html (http://www.hearnehardwoods.com/hardwoods/exotic_hardwoods/exotic_wood/tasmanian_rose_myrtle_lumber/tasmanian_rose_myrtle_wood.html)



Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on April 15, 2014, 05:23:38 PM
Some progress on the cars. The big hurdle to overcome is the etching artwork for all the metal parts. These are to be etched in nickle-silver. Not the most interesting image posted on this forum, but the screendump might give an idea on how I plan to lay out the parts:

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/Master_ets_03.jpg)

By the way, the actual artwork will consists of two drawings, one for the front and one for the back. On the films they will be all black, the grey fill with black countours is just my "working colors".


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hydrostat on April 18, 2014, 06:02:04 AM
Hauk,

are you going to rearrange the items to save space / material?

Volker


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on April 18, 2014, 11:08:10 AM
Hauk,

are you going to rearrange the items to save space / material?

Volker

O  yes. This is just an early layout for checking that all parts are drawn. When I made the final layout for the etchings for the Westinghouse engines I spent a lot of time fitting all the parts into one A3 sheet of brass. Or more precisely 1 sheet of 0,5mm brass and one sheet of 0,3mm brass for two complete engines.



Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on October 23, 2014, 02:43:50 PM
Long time, no progress, but today hardware for 9 cars arrived in the form of brass castings from David Sciacca of Valley Brass & Bronze.
The master was printed by Prescision Wax in England on a Solidscape Printer.

I think the parts look fine, especially the casting must have been quite demanding with the thin cross-section of 0,45mm X 1,4mm.
I was in contact with several casters that just said it could not be done, but David stepped up the plate.  I can really recommend his casting service.

Precison Wax put in a remarkable effort to print the master. Several 3D printers said it could not be done, but PW  came through with flying colors! I have only one regret, and that is not going for full resolution of the wax print, It would have been even better at 0,127mm layers instead of 0,254. I really don't know why I missed this... Damned macro images, I was perfectly happy until I started to examine the images! >:(

Well, too late for regrets... I will use the parts, I think they will work well in the context of the complete car.

If you look closely, you can see that some of the nuts have holes instead of rods. These dimples are starter holes for drilling. Brass pins will be soldered into these holes. The plan is that these pins will help secure the hardware to the wooden sides.

Half of the cars will also have working door, the others will have the doors fixed permanently.

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/messsing_02.jpg)

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/messsing_03.jpg)

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/messsing_04.jpg)


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Juke Joint on October 23, 2014, 05:34:17 PM

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/kisvogn2.jpg)

They look great considering the size! And they hinge! Are those printed in wax or did Valley Brass make a wax pattern from the print?

Philip


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Ray Dunakin on October 23, 2014, 07:25:23 PM
I agree with Phillip, considering the size they are really nice. Once installed and painted they'll be just fine.



Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on October 23, 2014, 10:02:02 PM
Thanks for the encouragement!

I agree that they probably will look fine on the finished model, but knowing that they probably could have been even better is a nagging me a tad...

Regarding the print, they are indeed printed in wax. This is a bit unconventional, as wax prints are usually used for making a plaster mould directly. The wax is covered in plaster, and the wax part is burned out in an oven. This is the loosing of the wax  in "lost wax" casting! Doing it this way you would have to make a wax print for every single part, which would have been way too expensive.

David made a RTV rubber mould from the wax master. In this mould he made new wax parts that was assembled into a casting "three".

A lot of people have said that you can not do it like this. But the wax prints from Precision Wax had far better surface detail than prints made in other materials, so I am certain that it was a very wise decision on Davids part to use the wax master.




Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Chuck Doan on October 23, 2014, 10:53:30 PM
I'm glad you guys are pushing the envelope.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on October 23, 2014, 11:06:00 PM
I'm glad you guys are pushing the envelope.

Well, my contribution is only making unreasonable demands! And taking some calculated risks. PW warned me firmly against having a delicate wax like this shipped across the atlantic... A least one wax print was destroyed during post-processing, but PW printed a new one at no extra cost.

Both PW and David pushed their skills and tools to the limit. It is a pleasure to work with people that takes so much pride in their craft.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on October 24, 2014, 01:09:46 AM
They are almost perfect. If you need to improve the finish, would a light sandblasting help? (If you paint them I doubt it would matter. Sandblasting might help only if you chemically blacken them.) -- Russ


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hydrostat on October 24, 2014, 06:34:07 AM
Hi, Hauk,

Regarding the print, they are indeed printed in wax. This is a bit unconventional, as wax prints are usually used for making a plaster mould directly. The wax is covered in plaster, and the wax part is burned out in an oven. This is the loosing of the wax  in "lost wax" casting! Doing it this way you would have to make a wax print for every single part, which would have been way too expensive.

I'm not sure about the last point. You're right, that the printed wax part usually is being burned out, but the thereby resulting casting is then going to be your brass master form, which you can rework if necessary - without shipment problems of delicate parts. Afterwards a mould is made out of this reworked master form which then is used to make the wax parts in an arbitrary amount. No need to repeatedly print any part. Of course there's a risk to loose your printed part due to a casting mistake (which can be the company's risk, too). So if you don't like the surface, you may rework one of them and ask the casting company to use this for a new mould for the wax parts. But there might be a problem with shrinkage: Your parts already came from a mould, where the shrinking happens, so you would have new shrinkage if a new mould is made from these parts (there's no shrinkage when casting the printed part directly via lost wax).

I agree that they probably will look fine on the finished model, but knowing that they probably could have been even better is a nagging me a tad...

I can understand your disappointment. It's really annoying if it could have been better so easily.

Volker


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on October 28, 2014, 12:32:27 AM

I'm not sure about the last point. You're right, that the printed wax part usually is being burned out, but the thereby resulting casting is then going to be your brass master form, which you can rework if necessary - without shipment problems of delicate parts. Afterwards a mould is made out of this reworked master form which then is used to make the wax parts in an arbitrary amount. No need to repeatedly print any part. Of course there's a risk to loose your printed part due to a casting mistake (which can be the company's risk, too). So if you don't like the surface, you may rework one of them and ask the casting company to use this for a new mould for the wax parts. But there might be a problem with shrinkage: Your parts already came from a mould, where the shrinking happens, so you would have new shrinkage if a new mould is made from these parts (there's no shrinkage when casting the printed part directly via lost wax).

I agree that they probably will look fine on the finished model, but knowing that they probably could have been even better is a nagging me a tad...

I can understand your disappointment. It's really annoying if it could have been better so easily.

Volker

I agree that I should have made a metal master from my wax. As you said, I could then have made final adjustments to it as well as getting a chance to examine a real metal part.

Pictures of the prints can be deceiving. And in addition my only complaint about PW is that they are not able to take decent macro pictures of parts. I find it sort of amusing that they have printers worth several thousand dollars, but obviously not a compact camera worth a couple hundred dollars. I use a Canon G12 and a desktop lamp for my macro images.

And yes, it is a bit annoying that PW confirms that they in fact *could* have printed the part with better Z-axis resolution!

All that asides, the parts will work fine, and I have starter the post-processing work on them. This is no small task!

The process is something like this:

1. Cut all the parts from the sprues.
2. Remove any flash (almost none, fortunately!)
3. File all parts to the proper length.
4. Straighten the parts using an arbor press. ( Do not worry, I use stripwood as protection on the detail side!)
5. Drill holes for pins and hinges
6. Clean up all parts with fiberglass eraser.
7. Wash parts with laquer thinner
8. Blacken the parts in a 1:200 solution of Birchwood Casey brass blackening.
9. File/sand the back of the parts smooth. I remove about 0,1mm of the thickness. This sounds like a horrible job, but using the wooden protection pieces as "handles" this in fact quite simple. During the pressing the wood becomes negative "moulds" of the part.
10. Solder bits of 0,3mm brass wire into all pinholes and assemble hinged parts.
11. File wire doen to proper length
12. Blacken the bright spots after filing.

I have not completed the list for any parts yet, I have parts for three cars at point 4. I have also tested the drilling of the bolts, but lacking a proper chuck/mindrill I had to use an hand vise, and this was ridiculous slow and I broke several drills in the process. But I got proof that the concept will work, and proper equipment is on the way!

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/messsing_06.jpg)

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/messsing_05.jpg)


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on October 28, 2014, 01:20:22 AM
As gorgeous as the parts are (and they, along with your craftsmanship, are beautiful) ... there must be an easier way! -- Russ


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on October 28, 2014, 03:22:04 AM
As gorgeous as the parts are (and they, along with your craftsmanship, are beautiful) ... there must be an easier way! -- Russ

O yes. Like casting complete sides in resin from 3D printed masters. But then I got those crazy visions of real metal parts and wooden sides made from scale size planks with working tongues and grooves...

Plain and simple, resin models just did not feel right.

This is one of the few areas in life where total disregard of bottom lines, deadlines and total rejection of reason is possible.
So lets be realistic and demand the impossible!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: NE Brownstone on October 28, 2014, 09:21:01 AM
"So lets be realistic and demand the impossible!"

I like that!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on October 28, 2014, 01:19:00 PM
... And the converse often is true: Let's be unrealistic and demand the possible! -- Russ


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hydrostat on October 28, 2014, 02:45:58 PM
Hauk,

your post processed items don't give any room for improvement. Even the surface looks good to me assuming the cars won't be presented in delivery appearance ...

Volker


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on October 29, 2014, 03:10:20 AM
Hauk,

your post processed items don't give any room for improvement. Even the surface looks good to me assuming the cars won't be presented in delivery appearance ...

Volker

The cars was built in 1908, and I model the railroad as it was in the 30´s. Thats at least 22 years of hard service, so the suface on the castings is probably more than smooth enough!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hydrostat on October 29, 2014, 07:50:16 AM
The cars was built in 1908, and I model the railroad as it was in the 30´s. Thats at least 22 years of hard service, so the suface on the castings is probably more than smooth enough!

Yep! I'm really looking forward to see them blackened and assembled to the wooden parts!

Volker


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Oystein LB on October 30, 2014, 04:58:43 PM
Looks like the toolmaking department needs to speed up to keep ut the phase! Picture wil come when i the mystery tool is done.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on November 04, 2014, 06:22:56 AM
First coloring tests have been completed. This is just a test setup, the wooden planks will not actually be used in any model)

The wood parts have been treated with full-strength Silverwood, after this dried the "outside" of the planks were stained with a 50/50 mix of Humbrol 70 and 153. The paint was thinned with about 50% White spirit.

The metal parts were dunked in Birchwood Casey that was diluted around 1:100. I left the parts in the chemicals for a couple of days. It is important to rinse the blackened parts well and to scrub them with hot water & baking soda to completely stop the blackening process.  

I am quite happy with the results. The wood grain is more visible than on the delivery photos of the prototype car, but my models are supposed to show more than 25 years of hard use, so I would guess the more worn look is appropriate. And this is the way I like my models to look: Real wood and metal that show their true character.

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/treverk_metall_03.jpg)

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/treverk_metall_05.jpg)

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/treverk_metall_02.jpg)

Feel free to comment & criticise! This is as I mentioned just a test, so improvements are still possible!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Sami on November 04, 2014, 07:39:32 AM
Nice job !


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on November 04, 2014, 01:10:33 PM
Will the exterior wood really be that reddish color? -- Russ


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on November 04, 2014, 03:33:22 PM
Will the exterior wood really be that reddish color? -- Russ

The jury is out on that one.
Most likely the prototype was painted a red based on iron oxide as pigment. This means a paint that is pretty bright.

Here are an example of a norwegian barn most likely painted with paint based on iron oxide:

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/barn.jpg)

It is rather  old and weathered, but the red is still pretty bright. And since it is an modest barn, it is probably not painted with a very expensive paint.

I think you could call this color "Norwegian Boxcar Red", as it was a very common paint used on simple buildings and equipment.

But all that said, I am not 100% sure about the color myself. I have posted the images on some norwegian forums for real railroads, and I am eager to hear what people working with 1:1 historical railroad material thinks about the color.



Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: TRAINS1941 on November 04, 2014, 04:08:22 PM
I really like that color.  But then I love the color red.

Jerry


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hydrostat on November 04, 2014, 04:53:13 PM
Hauk,

I can't say anything about the color, but comparing your results with the both b&w pictures from your firts post the color surface needs to be smoother for my opinion. This looks like the planks have nearly lost their color, but at the prototype pics it rather looks like again and again painted planks whit a clearly visible color application.

And this is the way I like my models to look: Real wood and metal that show their true character.

No doubt. The brass came out all over fantastic.

Volker


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Ray Dunakin on November 04, 2014, 07:20:14 PM
The brass is amazing. Can't see any sign of the printing process.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on November 05, 2014, 03:11:46 AM
Yes, as Ray and Volker say, the brass parts are excellent.

I have no criticism of the shade of red because I have no idea what color the original cars might have been. I would suggest, though, that you use opaque paint rather than stain to color the cars. Can you do what Chuck does -- peeling paint over stained wood -- or something that will look like that? A couple of years ago I tried to follow his directions but was unable to duplicate his results. (I hope to try again soon.) You are better at that than I am and might have better luck, whether on wood or plastic.

Because you are so skillful, your cars have the potential to be superb. I will watch your progress carefully. I think you will inspire us.

Russ



Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on November 05, 2014, 05:49:48 AM
Yes, as Ray and Volker say, the brass parts are excellent.

I have no criticism of the shade of red because I have no idea what color the original cars might have been. I would suggest, though, that you use opaque paint rather than stain to color the cars. Can you do what Chuck does -- peeling paint over stained wood -- or something that will look like that?


Yes, I have tried the method with mixed results.  I think I will try again. It could be the way to proceed with the ore cars. The Black and White photos indicates a rather smooth finish, so an opaque paint layer might be a better starting point for weathering and distressing the cars. I will try to study other pictures to see if I can get hints on how the cars have weathered.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Design-HSB on November 05, 2014, 07:12:31 AM

Hello Hauk,
Unfortunately I get from any of my computers pictures of you displayed.

Instead, always www.folk-rovere.org the object can not be found.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on November 11, 2014, 04:59:51 PM

Hello Hauk,
Unfortunately I get from any of my computers pictures of you displayed.

Instead, always www.folk-rovere.org the object can not be found.

That is weird, from what I can see all pictures are still on the server.
Anybody else that can not see the images?

Please let me know if the images are invisible!

Hoping that the images are visible, here is an update on preparing the parts. I got a packet of 0,35mm and 0,4mm drill bits today, and started drilling the holes for the pins and hinges.

Unfortunately, it is *much* harder to drill the holes than I tought! I think this is a combination of that the brass in the castings is very hard and the drills (surprise, surprise) are very thin.

So I have been breaking drill bits at an alarming rate, and progress have been slow. But it *is* possible to drill the holes, it just takes a lot of patience and drill bits.

You would think that drilling holes is a rather simple task, but it takes practice to do rather delicate work like this.  

At least I have confirmation that the concept for the hinges will work fine. Before soldering the hinge pin I will blacken the longest part of the hinge after drilling the hole for the pin. The solder will not stick to blackened brass, and the plan is that this way the hinge will be working after soldering.

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/messsing_07.jpg)

Another millimeter post on the way to a completed string of ore cars!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Juke Joint on November 11, 2014, 05:51:33 PM
Awesome Hauk! How thick is the hinge pin wire?


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on November 11, 2014, 05:57:18 PM
Awesome Hauk! How thick is the hinge pin wire?

Thanks!

The wire is 0.3mm (0,0118") nickel silver.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Chuck Doan on November 11, 2014, 08:51:46 PM
Some of the pics were missing for me too, but now they are back! This looks like it's going to work out!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: jacq01 on November 12, 2014, 01:57:44 AM
Harvard,

why not ose 0,3mm pianowire ?
nickel-silver is too soft for operating purposes.

Jacq


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on November 12, 2014, 04:38:03 AM
Harvard,

why not ose 0,3mm pianowire ?
nickel-silver is too soft for operating purposes.

Jacq

There are going to be four hinges to each of the doors. And handling will be minimal, this is just a "show-off" feature, I do not plan to operate the cars in any model railroad like sense.
The strength of the wire used in the hinges is therefore of no concern. NS wire will be more than strong enough. The brass casting would probably break before the wire.

Piano wire is a dog to cut & solder, I  would not consider it except were great strength is needed. I considered using PW for the pantographs, but I used NS instead due to the ease of cutting, filing and soldering. So far the pantographs have hold up well.

But I should add that I handle my models as I would handle fragile glass objects...


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Design-HSB on November 12, 2014, 07:47:33 AM
hi Hauk,
now I can finally see the happiness your pictures and so also only appreciate your great work.
I like to use spring-hard stainless steel for such joints.
With Griffon S-39 flux for soldering (http://www.wildkamp.de/Griffon-S-39-Loetwasser-fuer-Edelstahl-Flakon-50-ml_pr_910306_cat_18000215_de) stainless steel can you even then.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on November 12, 2014, 02:02:14 PM
Havard, I went back and read the last couple of pages again. The metal parts are superb, of course, but I thought of another idea for coloring the wood: Pastel chalks. If you can't recreate Chuck's technique, try rubbing pastels directly onto stained wood. If you grind the stick to a point (or find a pastel pencil) you can do precise work and leave areas with no chalk where the paint has "peeled". It's very easy and the red color will be opaque. See if you like the appearance. -- Russ


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on November 15, 2014, 05:40:30 PM
Havard, I went back and read the last couple of pages again. The metal parts are superb, of course, but I thought of another idea for coloring the wood: Pastel chalks. If you can't recreate Chuck's technique, try rubbing pastels directly onto stained wood. If you grind the stick to a point (or find a pastel pencil) you can do precise work and leave areas with no chalk where the paint has "peeled". It's very easy and the red color will be opaque. See if you like the appearance. -- Russ

I did use crayons for coloring my H0 scale warehouse, but I am hesitant to use the technique for the ore cars.

The reason is that the brass parts are going to be glued to the wood, and I do not think that glue will stick well to  a crayon colored surface.

I am unsure if a painted or stained surface is best. In the pictures the sides look rather smooth with little grain showing.  So a painted surface might be better.

Leaving the decision for later, I have spent the time working more on my drilling techniques. As I might have mentioned, i broke a lot of drills trying to drill the necessary holes in the castings. Things go better now, and I am much more optimistic regarding the drilling. The key to success is holding the parts firmly in place and correctly aligned. I does not take a genius to work this out, but I still fumbled a bit...

I felt rather smart figuring out how to straighten out the sometimes rather bent castings. I use a pice of stripwood against the detailed side of the castings, and a solid piece of steel on the backside. I then use another piece of steel to make a steel-wood-brass-steel sandwich (yummy) and gives it a good pressing in my arbor press.

The wood is also a good handle for sanding the back of the castings smooth.

Small steps, indeed, but I was seriously fearing that drilling the castings would turn out to be practically impossible, so I am happy with this modest progress!

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/messing_11.jpg)

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/messsing_09.jpg)

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/messsing_10.jpg)

Hopefully, more interesting images will follow soon!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: 5thwheel on November 16, 2014, 12:37:04 AM
For drilling with fine drills I make my own holder by mounting a piece of 1/8" brass rod in a collet and drilling a simi-deep hole in the end of it. I was surprised that I was able to drill 1/4" deep hole withy out breaking the drill, just dumb luck I say.  I then turn the rod to a point.  I break off the back end of the drill bit to expose as much drill as I want and then superglue it in. The picture shown is longer than I usually use because it had to go through both hubs.  Usually I use about 1/8" to 1/4" length. I rarely have drill breakage.  If one breaks just heat up the rod and remove the broken drill and glue in another one.  In drilling holes that small it is just peck and pull,peck and pull etc. Lots of lube too.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: 5thwheel on November 16, 2014, 12:42:44 AM
This is one of the drills.  It is longer than I usually make.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on November 16, 2014, 02:06:32 AM
This is one of the drills.  It is longer than I usually make.

Nice work!
In fact, I tried something similar, but I had absolutely no luck in drilling a deep enough hole in the brass holder.

When I found cheap drill bits with thick shanks on eBay, I went for those. Even if this is probably not high-end stuff (Made in China), at $ 6,- for 10 drills including postage, I can afford to buy a few extra.

I am not even sure if the drills that I buy from CNC-Plus in Germany at around three time the cost are not the same drill bits. 


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: 5thwheel on November 16, 2014, 08:31:03 AM
Sounds like a good deal on the drills.  I'm enjoying following this. Nice work.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on November 28, 2014, 04:37:21 AM
Recent work on the project has mostly consisted of drilling and swearing, vigirously brushing with fibreglass brushes and handeling rather poisonous chemicals. In other words, preparing & blackening the brass parts.

But I have also gotten the artwork for the etchings done. Drawing etching artwork is one of the things I consider a real drag, and I am really happy that I have a first version ready for a test etch.

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/kt_back_web.jpg)

Fingers crossed for receiving the etch in time for the christmas holiday!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: 5thwheel on November 28, 2014, 10:26:15 AM
Hauk,

The following photo may look out go place but bear with me.  This is a heater I made in 1/12th scale I needed deep detail so I made my etching drawings so they could be laminated.  By stacking up each etching on another and soldering them together I was able to get detail that did not look like etchings.  For laminating I used lead solder paste on each piece and sandwiched them together between two aluminum blocks and hooked them up to my resistance soldering.  If you do not have resistance soldering equipment then make the blocks a little longer and drill and tap holes at each end to make a clamp and heat them with a torch.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on November 28, 2014, 01:17:08 PM
Clever and successful. Thanks for the tip. -- Russ


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on December 13, 2014, 07:56:02 PM
The test-etchings arrived in good time for christmas!

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/fret_kisvogn_tre_w.jpg)

The best moment during the process of making etchings is just after you have unpacked a fresh sheet, and before you have started cutting loose parts and discovering all your mistakes...

This is how far I got tonight:

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/understell_arbeidsvogn_w.jpg)

And indeed, there are things to correct!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on December 14, 2014, 02:04:58 AM
Maybe so but it's beautiful anyway. -- Russ


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Ray Dunakin on December 14, 2014, 11:29:30 AM
Maybe so but it's beautiful anyway. -- Russ

You took the words right out of my mouth!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on December 14, 2014, 12:47:08 PM
Maybe so but it's beautiful anyway. -- Russ

You took the words right out of my mouth!

I was so taken by my first brass etching that I considered framing it and putting it on the wall!
But then even rubbish artwork looks great on the fret, which was certainly the case with my first etching.

For me, learning to make  artwork for etching took a lot of trial and error, but in the end I have mastered it to the point were etching is an invaluable modeling tool. I can not imagine building models without it. I don't know if it saves me that much time, but my final models are far better (and not at least much stronger) than if I had built them with conventional techniques.

And when you get things right, the etched parts are a pure joy to work with. You can fold up three dimensional parts almost like origami.
Using tabs & slots and rivets with indexing holes it is possible to get things perfectly square and level.

As I am still under the delusion that I am a model railroader and not "just" a model builder I want all my rolling stock to be operational. I am perfectly aware that it is most unlikely that I ever will build  layout, but for some reason I really like the idea.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on December 14, 2014, 02:18:32 PM
For most guys like us, layouts are better in theory than practice. As a former contributor once admitted in print, his layout ended up being a big model. When it was complete he ran trains on it a few times, got bored, sold it, and started another model! -- Russ


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: turtle on December 14, 2014, 08:16:38 PM
I'm always in awe and amazement at the standards of craftsmanship I see here.
For me - to successfully turn-on the computer is a celebration and then with dismay I see what can be achieved with this "black magic" leaves me deflated  :( but inspired. One day I'll break into the 21 century  :D.
Keep at it, and looking forward to progress shots  :).


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on December 17, 2014, 04:05:00 PM
I'm always in awe and amazement at the standards of craftsmanship I see here.
For me - to successfully turn-on the computer is a celebration and then with dismay I see what can be achieved with this "black magic" leaves me deflated  :( but inspired. One day I'll break into the 21 century  :D.
Keep at it, and looking forward to progress shots  :).

Got my custom-made bending brakes today (thanks again, Øystein!) and have started to fold up the etched parts. Just a short stint in the workshop, no time for photos! But more progress report soon.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on December 18, 2014, 02:58:57 PM
With etchings and bending brakes in the house, it is finally time for some actual modeling, and not just computer work.

The bending bars make the folding of the long, slender beams easy work. The precise placement of the etched holes makes alignment of the parts very simple.

I use turned brass rivets wherever possible. I really recommend this approach, it makes things precise and solid.

Here are some images:

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/siderammer.jpg)

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/akselgaffel.jpg)

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/bretteverktoy.jpg)


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on December 18, 2014, 03:21:46 PM
Not bad. -- Russ


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Design-HSB on December 18, 2014, 03:28:48 PM
Hi Hauk,

and for rounding the back I use the wire end rounding tool (http://www.finescalerr.com/smf/index.php?topic=2502.0), good luck with further construction.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on December 18, 2014, 04:22:06 PM
Thanks for the feedback!

The rounding of the rivets on the back will be a great challenge inside the Ushaped-beams. If you look closely you can spot several holes on the bottom flange of the beams. These holes are for rivets that will hold reinforecment plates, springs & different hardware. Those rivets will be visible from the side, and should ideally have heads in both ends.  No way to fit a rounding tool inside them. But I have a far-fetched idea that I will share if it proves successful...


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Peter_T1958 on December 20, 2014, 03:04:12 PM
Hi Håvard

I've never built a brass railcar, but I'm fascinated by your approach. Unfortunaley I can't understand some of your steps due to lack of own experience in brass work.
Ok, when I built a WW1 tank from scratch some years ago I also designed my own PE parts, but then the rivets were made from heated plastic rod, not brass.

Now I would like to know whether you solder each rivet to the frame, and if so, how do you prevent soldered rivets from falling out again, when you reheat the frame for the next rivet ...

A slightly naive question, sorry :-[

Peter



Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on December 20, 2014, 04:44:19 PM
Hi Håvard

I've never built a brass railcar, but I'm fascinated by your approach. Unfortunaley I can't understand some of your steps due to lack of own experience in brass work.
Ok, when I built a WW1 tank from scratch some years ago I also designed my own PE parts, but then the rivets were made from heated plastic rod, not brass.

Now I would like to know whether you solder each rivet to the frame, and if so, how do you prevent soldered rivets from falling out again, when you reheat the frame for the next rivet ...

A slightly naive question, sorry :-[

Peter

I should have included more images and a better explanation, sorry for the confusion!

All the rivets are inserted in holes in the etched parts, so the keep everything aligned pretty well before soldering. But you need small clamps of some sort to keep everything aligned during soldering. The rivets are usually in groups

I use a resistance soldering unit (RSU) and this gives a very local and fast heating. In addition I use heat sinks made from tissue paper soaked in water. Sometimes it is possible to clamp down a complete assembly, then it doesn't matter if earlier joints "open" again, they will close when everything cools down.

More pictures will follow!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: lab-dad on December 20, 2014, 05:42:25 PM
Really inspiring work and very lovely to watch.
Would be nice to have a book of all your images and text.
Marty


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on December 20, 2014, 08:05:16 PM
Really inspiring work and very lovely to watch.
Would be nice to have a book of all your images and text.
Marty

Thanks a lot! Hope that my ramblings might inspire more people to try and produce their own etched parts!  

But even if etching is a great timesaver, there is still a lot of modeling to do. Here are one of four frames (support for the wooden hoppers ). Six parts and 18 rivets for each frame. Two frames took the entire evening.

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/ramme_01.jpg)

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/ramme_02.jpg)



Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on December 21, 2014, 02:50:46 AM
You have inspired me. I hope my enthusiasm for the potential of photo etching in general and for your project in particular will help you to keep going. -- Russ


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Mr Potato Head on December 21, 2014, 05:01:46 AM
Fantastic work!  :o :o
I love etched brass when ever I can use it, I've been working with a friend and we've been making our own, there are a lot of steps, but it's gotten a lot easier now, are results are more successful. I also use resistance soldering and when working on projects that have multiple joints or welds, I count how many there will be and then I figure the lowest setting to accomplish the task, then I solder the first piece at the highest temp and lower the temp each time a tenth of a watt until the task is completed, each time lowering will allow the last piece soldered  not to un solder its self. Also heat sinks are a great help. There is little heat build up unlike traditional pencil soldering, but the piece gets hot! Carr's low melt solder works great on white metal parts and their low melt flux is a must.  Also you can use different grades of solder, every time I can find a new brand I buy some, each run is slightly different, they have different silver contents meaning they have different temperature values. Whether resistance or traditional try it, practice on some scrap, it's not that hard and you'll love the results.
MPH


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on December 21, 2014, 01:39:32 PM
Gil, that was actually helpful. Are you feeling okay? -- ssuR


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Bill Gill on December 21, 2014, 01:43:34 PM
Hauk, I have followed your projects for while and admire both your precise and aesthetic techniques.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Ray Dunakin on December 21, 2014, 02:03:23 PM
Great work, it's like a little piece of jewelry.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on December 21, 2014, 03:35:39 PM
Thanks for all the kind comments!

A few morewords on my soldering techniques. As I have mentioned before, I use a RSU (Resistance Soldering Unit) almost exclusively. For soldering I use a 60-40 Lead/tin soldering cream. This cream contains its own water-soluble flux, and is the best flowing solder I have tried. And believe me, I have tried a few!

Here are the basic components for most structural joints on the underframe:

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/etsedel_07.jpg)

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/etsedel_06.jpg)

As the holidays approach real fast, I have to hang up my soldering iron for a few days, so this is the last image for a while.

It is starting to look a little as a underframe at least! And I promise to clean my fingernails for the holidays...

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/etsedel_10.jpg)


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: artizen on December 21, 2014, 05:04:25 PM
Modelling jewellery!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on December 28, 2014, 06:41:23 PM
Modelling jewellery!

Thanks!

With the holidays out of the way, we can go back to the regular program.

Tonight the darn thing rolled. As I like to play a bit with my models, I want them to be operating. So it was great to see that the springing systems work, and that the wheels are free rolling. The springing system is not my idea, I bought a similar kit in 00 gauge and reverse engineered it. The inventor of this springing/compensating concept is an englishman named Bill Bedford. It is a well proved concept that is used a lot in the UK. It is simple and reliable, and as I probably will never sell a kit I did not hesitate to copy the design. I was more unsure about  the bearing. This is just a hole the etch, and the axle is riding in the hole with no bearing of any sort.  The axles are just turned down to a smaller diameter at then ends, they are not pinpointed or anything fancy. Erik Olsen that custom-made the wheels was not too happy with me wanting this rather crude solution. But the wagon is suprisingly free rolling. And it was about time that those wheelsets got a decent spin after spending the last 13 years in a drawer!

Here are a few images fresh from he memory card:

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/ramme_12.jpg)

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/ramme_10.jpg)

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/ramme_11.jpg)


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Ray Dunakin on December 28, 2014, 07:17:45 PM
Looks great!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on December 29, 2014, 02:42:27 AM
Adequately outstanding. -- Russ


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Design-HSB on December 29, 2014, 03:46:25 AM
Hello Hauk,

that roll very much for vehicles, I would also consider.
But if you could integrate a small ball bearing it should go.
Very clean worked in any case from you and it shows once again the advantages of metal as a material.
I would be interested but also closer to the suspension.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Peter_T1958 on December 29, 2014, 09:11:48 AM
Convincing work on that frame! And a great idea with that spring wire! So the leaf springs and axle boxes on the outside remain without function, if I understand right.
I can well imagine, that planning all those parts in advance needs a lot of know-how and experience...
Does the designer consider the final weight of the car? I suspect, that fact must have an effect on the lenght of the spring wire. Or is this experience too? ???

Congrats to your work,
Peter


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on December 29, 2014, 12:02:18 PM
Convincing work on that frame! And a great idea with that spring wire! So the leaf springs and axle boxes on the outside remain without function, if I understand right.
I can well imagine, that planning all those parts in advance needs a lot of know-how and experience...
Does the designer consider the final weight of the car? I suspect, that fact must have an effect on the lenght of the spring wire. Or is this experience too? ???

Congrats to your work,
Peter


Thanks!

But the praise for the design goes to the inventor of the concept, Bill Bedford. I was inspired by this article: http://www.clag.org.uk/bb-w-irons.html

The length of the wire will indeed affect the springing. But it is much easier to tune the cars by using different diameters of the guitar string used for the springs. I used 0.009" string for my car, but I don't think it will be stiff enough when the body of the car is added. So I will try some slightly thicker springs. Guitar strings comes in a lot of different thicknesses, so it is possible to fine-tune the springing of the cars.

This is a 00-scale kit (1/76) that I sort of reverse engineered:

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/uploads2/wwiron_03.jpg)

As you can see, this design is  little more fancy than mine as it includes a turned bronze bearing to be used with pinpoint axles.
Probably a bit more freerolling than mine, but as I mentioned, I am very happy with the rolling characteristics  of my cars.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Peter_T1958 on December 29, 2014, 12:29:18 PM
Now everything becomes clear. Thank you for the link!
Can't wait for the next update...



Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hydrostat on December 30, 2014, 05:06:40 AM
Hauk,

it's a pleasure to see this come together. The springing system works doubtless, but I'm sure you'd have managed to model working leaf springs from phosphorus bronze. What was the reason for compromising at this point?

Volker


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on December 30, 2014, 05:21:33 AM
Hauk,

it's a pleasure to see this come together. The springing system works doubtless, but I'm sure you'd have managed to model working leaf springs from phosphorus bronze. What was the reason for compromising at this point?

Volker

Time. I plan to model an entire train of these cars (≈9 cars), even if I never build a layout. Using etched fold-up beams is another compromise. Milled brass profiles gives optimal results, but would have taken much longer.

My modeling hero Erik Olsen built rolling stock with working leaf springs, functional rivets (no soldering!), beams made from commercial brass profils filed down to exact cross-section. I would love to build my cars this uncompromising way, but I lack the time, patience and skills.

Take a look at Eriks articles, there is a lot to learn here:
http://www.modelbaneteknik.dk/model/vogn/vogn-e.htm

It is the gold standard of 0-scale scratch building in my opinion.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hydrostat on December 30, 2014, 06:01:43 AM
Thanks, Hauk, I see. Very interesting link! I'll have to check this without ruffle or excitement.

Volker



Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Marc988 on December 30, 2014, 07:13:16 AM
most impressive website !

Quote
Milled brass profiles gives optimal results, but would have taken much longer.

If you prefer to use milled brass profiles you could order special milled profiles from Hassler  http://www.hassler-profile.li (http://www.hassler-profile.li)
I had special profiles made to a drawing with great result. He not only mills the profiles but can also cut them to exact length so you can use them straight away (saves time  ;D )

PS I have no personal connecting other than being a satisfied customer.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on January 06, 2015, 06:27:23 PM
most impressive website !

Quote
Milled brass profiles gives optimal results, but would have taken much longer.

If you prefer to use milled brass profiles you could order special milled profiles from Hassler  http://www.hassler-profile.li (http://www.hassler-profile.li)
I had special profiles made to a drawing with great result. He not only mills the profiles but can also cut them to exact length so you can use them straight away (saves time  ;D )

PS I have no personal connecting other than being a satisfied customer.


I have ordered profiles from Hassler for some other projects, and his service is reliable and the products are very fine. But I feel that the standard cross-sections are a bit coarse, but perhaps he can make them finer for custom jobs. I am quite happy with my etch & fold beams for now, but  I might try milled profiles in the future.

A little update on the project, the last evenings have been spent adding some of the smallest parts to the underframe. Brackets for adding the brake hangers have been added to the underframe, and those rascals are around 1X2mm "big". So no dramatic progress photos, but here are a couple anyway:

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/bremseholder_2.jpg)
 

You can see the four pairs of brackets with the mounting rivets for the hangers testfittet.

There are also a few other brackets added, in the center of the last picture you can see a bracket for the brake linkage:
 
(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/bremseholder.jpg)
 
Hope the next update will show some more dramatic progress!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Ray Dunakin on January 06, 2015, 09:28:56 PM
Real metal, real rivets -- gorgeous!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Chuck Doan on January 06, 2015, 09:30:21 PM
Just beautiful. Again!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Gordon Ferguson on January 07, 2015, 02:02:51 AM
Superb !

It's a real joy to watch this all coming together, don't always comment on each update usually 'cause I''m speechless with admiration for the dedication you are bringing to this


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on January 07, 2015, 02:12:37 AM
All progress, large or small, so far has been most satisfactory. -- Russ


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on January 07, 2015, 03:48:29 AM
Thanks a lot for all the encouragement!

This underframe has turned out to be a lot more fun than I had anticipated. The etchings are crisp and precise, and the parts mostly fit together as planned. This is kitbuilding rather than scratchbuilding, and progress is much quicker than a real scratchbuilding project would have been.

There are some key factors to the ease of building:

-Nickle silver for the etchings instead of brass. A bit harder to cut & file, but solders better. NS also react better to blackening solutions.

-Resistance soldering. I can not stress how much I enjoy my RSU unit. It is my favourite tool.

-Berafix 60/40 lead/tin soldering cream with 5-15% Zink chloride. You can wash away the flux residues with water, and I almost never have to remove excess solder. My biggest modelling fear is that this product will disappear due to the lead content...

-Turned brass rivets. Using "real" rivet connections whenever possible gives a very precise positioning of the parts. They are really worth the extra cost. There are in fact several sources for these little goodies, but I buy from either Old Pullman in Switzerland or Hassler profile in Lichtenstein.



Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: SandiaPaul on January 07, 2015, 07:23:25 AM
Hauk,

I have not chimed in on this yet, but its all really great work. I will try the NS etchings...but first I need to learn to make the files!

Best,

Paul


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on January 07, 2015, 08:19:37 AM
Hauk,

I have not chimed in on this yet, but its all really great work. I will try the NS etchings...but first I need to learn to make the files!

Best,

Paul

Thanks a lot, Paul!

Drawing artwork for etching is quite simple. At least the rather primitive way I do it.

Some starter points:

-You need a Vector-based drawing programme. You dont need a true CAD program. CorelDraw or Adobe Illustrator would do just fine.

-The commercial etchers use a process that etches both sides of the metal at the same time. So you need a drawing for both the front and back.

-Simple creatures (like me) draws the front and back artwork on two separate layers. Remember that the layers must be perfectly aligned/indexed.  You should use two register marks to help the etchers align your drawings.

-White space is etched away. Black means metal. Example: a black square on both layers means a full thickness metal piece. a black square on one layer and white space on the other means a half thickness piece of metal.

-You need tabs to keep your parts in place on the fret. These should be half thickness, so you draw them on only one layer. They need not be wider than app. 0,8mm. For really small parts they can be even slimmer, but probly not less than 0,5mm.

-Fold lines are a key concept. For 90deg bends they should have the same width as the thickenss of the sheet.

-Holes and slots should be at least be sheet thickness.

-Precise holes (like the ones for rivets) should be etched undersize and drilled to the exact size. I draw the holes for the rivets 0,25mm diameter and drill them out to the final size of 0,4 mm.

-Think origami. The ideal is to fold up a 3D model from a 2D sheet.

I can not reccomend photoetching strongly enough, I would probably not even be an active modeller without the help of etching services like PPD ltd.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: lab-dad on January 08, 2015, 07:09:31 AM
Great answer Hawk!
Thanks for providing it!

Really enjoying your efforts here.

-Marty


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on January 08, 2015, 11:13:49 AM
Great answer Hawk!
Thanks for providing it!

Really enjoying your efforts here.

-Marty

Thanks a lot, Marty!

I will be happy to answer any question regarding the techniques used on this model.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on January 08, 2015, 03:03:23 PM
During the course of a project like this, there are quite a few jobs that are just right out boring.

Making the brake shoes is such a job. A complete evening were spent on these parts, each shoe are built up from 3 pieces. A lot of cleaning up after soldering was necessary. After finishing the shoes I realized that they could need a couple of more layers to beef them up, they are a bit too skinny. Another revision to make on the next version of the etches.

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/bremseklosser.jpg)

Well, In a couple of evenings all etched parts for the car will be cleaned up an soldered into sub-assemblies. Then it is back to the PC to draw up all missing parts and make some revisions to a couple of others. Should take only a couple of evenings, and I am quite happy that there are so few bugs in the artwork.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: SandiaPaul on January 08, 2015, 08:09:21 PM
Hauk,

Thanks for your sbs of the drawing process....I am pretty well versed in 3D CAD(Inventor) but find that knowledge does not translate too well to the files needed for etching...

As a PS your boxcab build is something I refer to a lot!

Paul


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hydrostat on January 09, 2015, 01:40:04 AM
A complete evening were spent on these parts, each shoe are built up from 3 pieces. A lot of cleaning up after soldering was necessary.

Hauk,

where will the insulation be located to avoid short circuits if the brake shoes touch the wheels? I decided to have printed brake shoes for my Rollwagen, but maybe your parts' dimensions are to thin for that.

Cheers,
Volker


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on January 09, 2015, 02:45:28 AM
A complete evening were spent on these parts, each shoe are built up from 3 pieces. A lot of cleaning up after soldering was necessary.

Hauk,

where will the insulation be located to avoid short circuits if the brake shoes touch the wheels? I decided to have printed brake shoes for my Rollwagen, but maybe your parts' dimensions are to thin for that.

Cheers,
Volker

That is a very good question! A 3D-printed brake shoe is a good idea, I will look into it.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: mad gerald on January 09, 2015, 03:14:17 AM
(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/bremseklosser.jpg)

... wowzers! ...  :o

Thanks for your sbs of the drawing process....

...ditto ...

Cheers


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: mspaw on January 11, 2015, 01:31:25 PM
I wonder if i could cnc mill them for you? Do you have 2d drawings of the parts?

Amazing build and im truly in awe of the craftsmanship, and skill you have. Id love to build one im so inspired.

All the best!

-Michael


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on January 13, 2015, 11:18:35 AM
I wonder if i could cnc mill them for you? Do you have 2d drawings of the parts?

Amazing build and im truly in awe of the craftsmanship, and skill you have. Id love to build one im so inspired.

All the best!

-Michael

Thanks a lot for the kind words and the kind offer!
I have ordered some 1" diameter black delrin rod, and my plan is to turn a ring with the profile of the brake shoe. On the outside of the ring I will turn a narrow slot for an etched piece. This way I will get an non-conductive brake shoe that can be mounted real close to the wheel.

But I might very well have some other projects that would be suited for CNC-milling....

When the next version of the etched sheet is ready, I would be happy to sell the etches as a "Scratchbuilding aid". But there will be no further instructions than the this thread!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on January 15, 2015, 01:11:13 PM
No substantial progress to report. Instead of being productive, I have spent some time updating my blog (http://trainspast.wordpress.com). Feel free to take a look, and a comment would be much appreciated!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on January 18, 2015, 01:22:10 PM
The latest progress. Working joints for the door mechanism has been made:

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/blue_joint.jpg)

Some work have been done on the brake rigging as well:

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/blue_frame_01.jpg)

Unfortunately, I have gotten some of the linkage parts wrong (the longest one should be turned 180 deg, for instance), so some corrections have to be made.

A most important question, by the way: Black or sky background for the images?


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Design-HSB on January 18, 2015, 05:06:14 PM
Hello Hauk,

I find the blue parts presents your best.
Meanwhile, I'm also looking for your blog in more detail.
So a classic homepage with a breakdown by topics would but I liked it even better.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Ray Dunakin on January 18, 2015, 06:12:10 PM
Marvelous work!

The blue looks good to me.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on January 19, 2015, 02:06:06 AM
How many cars did you say you were going to build? That many? Will you finish them in your lifetime?

Stick with blue, usually a pretty neutral background for model photos. So far everything you've posted looks terrific.

Russ


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on January 19, 2015, 05:27:07 AM
How many cars did you say you were going to build? That many? Will you finish them in your lifetime?

Enough for a decent train, that means 9 of this type. And yes, I will finish them!

Be realistic, demand the impossible, as they said in the sixties.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Juke Joint on January 23, 2015, 08:20:26 PM
Checking your cars out, Awesome as usual!

Philip


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on January 29, 2015, 03:46:11 PM

A little progress report. Most of the time spent since last time was one of those tasks that must be done, but is never to be seen. More precisely, I had to mill cavities into the back of the brass castings to make room for the axle ends.
I did this on a CNC because I have no access to a manual milling machine. A manual one would have been a lot faster for a simple job like this.

The castings for the springs/journals are not made especially for this project, by the way. They were bought years ago from a Swedish modeler named Erik Walde. Back then I head no experience with 3D printing or any other fancy stuff. So I tried to find parts that were commercial available for my projects. I have a lot of these castings, so I will try them on this first wagon that I consider sort of a prototype. I think it looks quite good, even if they are a bit light for the wagon:

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/kisvogn_fjederpaket.jpg)

Just to get a feeling for how the finished wagon will look, I staged a photo with the laser cut wooden body:
 
(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/kisvogn_kasse.jpg)

I was a little shocked by the effect, it is a fat little bugger. Cant wait to see how the final wooden body will look like!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Ray Dunakin on January 29, 2015, 07:43:44 PM
Stunning work, once again!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on January 30, 2015, 02:16:05 AM
I agree with Ray. I love every new development in this project. -- Russ


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on January 30, 2015, 03:26:03 AM
I agree with Ray. I love every new development in this project. -- Russ

Thanks for the kind words, both of you!

There have been expressed some concern about the lasercut body, but have no fear, I have not given up on the individual tongue & groove boards!

This is just a setup for the photo. With the underframe mostly completed, focus will shift back to the body as soon as the revised  artwork hs been sent to the etcher.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: lab-dad on January 30, 2015, 06:41:17 AM
Looking good. GREAT!
I have been enjoying the progress (jealous too!)
The springs look a little out of place.
The rest of the model is so crisp and the springs, well are not.
I'm sure you will end up using lazer cut or photoetch spring steel so they look and work just like they should!

-Marty


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hydrostat on January 30, 2015, 07:06:07 AM
The springs look a little out of place.
The rest of the model is so crisp and the springs, well are not.

You nailed it, Marty.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on January 30, 2015, 08:09:50 AM
I would love to use real leaf springs if they could be made to work!

But from what I have seen it is extremely difficult to make soft enough working leaf springs in 0-scale. One of the few people I know of that has tried to make working leaf springs is Erik Olsen:

http://www.modelbaneteknik.dk/model/vogn/blfj.htm (http://www.modelbaneteknik.dk/model/vogn/blfj.htm)

For the springs to work, he have to make the springs "progressive" wich means that the two longest blades have a sharper radius than the others.
And even using this trick and ballasting his wagons to 280 g. (Around 10 oz.) the springs are a bit stiff!

I checked the weight of the completed wagon last night, and it clocked in at just over 1 ounce. Adding the body will at best double this, so I need considerable softer springs than those Erik made.

To give you an idea about how soft the complete stack of leaf springs needs to be, a single guitarstring of 0.009" would have about the correct stiffness.

If anyone have links to project that use woring leaf springs in 0-scale narrowgauge or smaller, I would love to see it!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: TRAINS1941 on January 30, 2015, 08:46:28 AM
Beautiful craftsmanship.  Love following this thread.

Jerry


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hydrostat on January 30, 2015, 10:27:42 AM
If anyone have links to project that use woring leaf springs in 0-scale narrowgauge or smaller, I would love to see it!

At buntbahn I've seen a trick you can get softer leaf springs. All leafs have a wide slot inside aside of the top and bottom leaf to achieve a softer spring. Maybe this works for O scale, too? They use phosphorus bronze for that. If you're interested I'll take time to search for it. I didn't find it at one go. Or ask Helmut, he surely knows.

Volker


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on January 30, 2015, 10:58:56 AM

At buntbahn I've seen a trick you can get softer leaf springs. All leafs have a wide slot inside aside of the top and bottom leaf to achieve a softer spring. Maybe this works for O scale, too? They use phosphorus bronze for that. If you're interested I'll take time to search for it. I didn't find it at one go. Or ask Helmut, he surely knows.

Volker

I think this is the same trick as Erik used. But I am very interested on seeing the postings on the Buntbahn forum!  I have tried searching there, but it is a little hard due to my rather limited German skills.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hydrostat on January 30, 2015, 12:13:30 PM
Hauk,

I'll have a closer look, but maybe I didn't remember the source correctly. For sure Helmut knows where to find it. This link to Thomas Hey'l's great website explains the principle: http://www.themt.de/grossbild/wagon/federn-1180mm-000s (http://www.themt.de/grossbild/wagon/federn-1180mm-000s). One can see the slots and a middle boring for adjustment. The yellow areas show the parts which are only half way etched. There's this clamp connecting the single blades and I recall that the connecting piece of wire is soldered solely to the clamp to avoid blocking the blades.

Volker




Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on January 30, 2015, 02:16:52 PM
I don't recall whether the leaf springs actually function but in the first or second Modelers' Annual (07 or 08) an article on scratchbuilding with brass dealt with building leaf springs. -- Russ


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Ray Dunakin on January 30, 2015, 02:26:50 PM
Unfortunately scale springs still have to deal with 1:1 physics. I suspect that any 1/48th scale springs sensitive enough to work realistically, would be far to delicate to hold up long even when handled carefully.



Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on January 30, 2015, 03:11:57 PM
Unfortunately scale springs still have to deal with 1:1 physics. I suspect that any 1/48th scale springs sensitive enough to work realistically, would be far to delicate to hold up long even when handled carefully.

Exactly. Those things do not scale linearly.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Design-HSB on January 30, 2015, 04:26:28 PM
Hello Hauk,

hier (http://youtu.be/yt_BKMkMj2Q) in 1973 built, sprung track 0 cars from me.



Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on April 16, 2015, 11:15:45 PM
Long time no post in this thread, but the last months of modelling time has been spent redesigning the etching artwork. The second generation of etchings has now arrived, and the the first build from this production run has gotten under way.

I took my chances and ordered etches for 20 wagons, and so far I have not discovered any major flaws.

One of the changes I made was to have the fasteners for the long rods  that goes parallel to the wagon line up proper.

Here is the test assembly:

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/test_01.jpg)

It might look trivial, but if you look closely you will see that there is in fact a rather complicated relationship between the parts involved.

And about those etches for 20 wagons, my latest estimate is that it will take at least 60 hours to build one wagon. I have to find ways to speed up construction!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on April 16, 2015, 11:37:58 PM
Hello Hauk,

hier (http://youtu.be/yt_BKMkMj2Q) in 1973 built, sprung track 0 cars from me.


Wow, nice!
How heavy must the wagon/car be for the springs to work?


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Peter_T1958 on April 17, 2015, 01:04:28 AM
Once again I've read through all of this from the beginning. It's absolutely brilliant! Keep up the good work, Peter

Side note: In particular, I like the decision of building in metal and wood as the prototype.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on April 17, 2015, 03:41:06 PM
Once again I've read through all of this from the beginning. It's absolutely brilliant! Keep up the good work, Peter

Side note: In particular, I like the decision of building in metal and wood as the prototype.


Thanks!

I am very happy with my "metal for metal" and "wood for wood" choice, even if I can see that it is not an entirely rational decision.
For the metal, I am convinced that it is the right choice, no matter how you look at it.  It is strong, easy to solder and the etching process is the most efficient way make parts out out of thin metal I can think of. And the half etched  folding lines are priceless.

For the wood parts things are a bit different. My wooden boards show more grain than the prototype, no doubt. The board by board construction with milled tongue and groove  is very time consuming. A body cast in resin would save a lot of time, and with practice I should be able to paint it at least as convincing as my wooden version probably will turn out.

But still, I would not like it any other way.

Its the same thing with handlaid track. When I first tried to hand lay track in H0 scale I really got a kick out of spiking the nickel silver rail to real wooden ties. Not much later I tried RailCrafts flex-track, but even if it clearly looks a lot more like the real deal than my hand spiked track it left me cold.

I guess it just proves that this whole model railroading thing is not just about rational choices!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Design-HSB on April 19, 2015, 02:02:47 PM
Hello Hauk,

hier (http://youtu.be/yt_BKMkMj2Q) in 1973 built, sprung track 0 cars from me.


Wow, nice!
How heavy must the wagon/car be for the springs to work?
Hi Hauk,

My wagon/car weighs including the wheels and axles 320 gr.
In your wagon/car there is an empty weights and a weight of loaded wagon/car.
Of course, the springs should fail at your wagon/car still fine, but when etching part of spring bronze, safely possible.

I'm impressed by your work on your railway wagon.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Bill Gill on April 19, 2015, 06:59:38 PM
Hauk, The new etched metal parts look very good. Would pearwood possibly work for the wooden parts? Shipmodelers use it because it shows little or no grain, works well wiyh tools and is strong and stains and paints well.

(Helmut: that is an impressive video with the springs that you made back in 1973!)


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on April 20, 2015, 01:04:19 AM
Havard, who ever said any of us is rational? -- Rus


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on April 20, 2015, 08:49:18 AM
Hauk, The new etched metal parts look very good. Would pearwood possibly work for the wooden parts? Shipmodelers use it because it shows little or no grain, works well wiyh tools and is strong and stains and paints well.

I have thought about it, but them I would need to cut the wood myself. I am trying to talk the local model railroad club into buying a Byrnes table saw, but until then I am "stuck" with Kappler wood.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: billmart on April 20, 2015, 09:55:23 AM
Hauk -
I also get my wood from Kappler Mill & Lumber.  In my experience with them, they seem to treat each order as a special order and cut/mill the pieces only after receiving an order.  I believe they do not keep a large supply of sizes on hand.  I'm sure part of the reason for operating this way is the LARGE number of sizes (dimensions) they offer.  They will also cut/mill scale lumber from woods other than basswood.  Perhaps you should check with them to see if they would be willing to use pearwood if you supplied it to them in sizes they could use as a starting point.

Just a thought.

Bill Martinsen


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Marc988 on April 20, 2015, 01:16:50 PM
Hi Hauk,

This remains an impressive subject to follow.

On the subject of the pear wood, there is a shop in The Netherlands in the city Gouda called "Het Kabinet" who specializes in material and building material for doll houses.  http://hetkabinet-miniaturen.nl/materialen (http://hetkabinet-miniaturen.nl/materialen)

In the past I ordered different types of wood precut to the dimensions I required. Maybe they can help you out on precut pear wood. You can find their contact details in the bottom of their website.
If you requires some support in translation, just contact me. I'd be happy to help you out.

Regards,
Marc


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on April 22, 2015, 06:11:00 PM
Good advice on the wood, guys! I will look into it when I get around to the wooden parts.

Work is still mainly going on in the metal shop, and here is a little update on my metal-bashing.(WARNING: Dirty fingernails coming up! Russ, you have hereby been warned!)

The opening mechanism for the side doors have been riveted together, and the connection to the hinges has been beefed up with two 1mm X 0,35mm washers: 
 
(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/hengsel_arm.jpg)
 
There are four such connection points for each wagon, and it was a pretty straightforward job to solder the washers to the etched part. You might argue that the washers are not strictly necessary but I think the joint looks much better when the washers+etched arm are thick enough the fill the forked gap in the blackened hinge entirely. Without the washers, there would have been a lot of "slop" in the connection. 
 
Here are the three other arms for the first wagon: 
 
(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/arm_skiver.jpg)
 
 
In this extreme closeup it might be easier to see that this is a sandwich consisting of a 0,25mm nickel-silver etched part between two 0,35mm thick brass washers cut from 1mm brass tubing: 
 
(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/arm_skiver_02.jpg)
 
By the way, I sincerely believe that I could never have soldered this assembly without my RSU and soldering cream. I don't think I would have been building metal models at all without this equipment. The Four Track Models RSU is my best modeling investment ever!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Bill Gill on April 22, 2015, 07:54:23 PM
Hauk, That is amazing soldering! (and I rarely use that word)


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Ray Dunakin on April 22, 2015, 09:51:51 PM
Such fine work -- stunning!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hydrostat on April 23, 2015, 01:06:35 AM
Hauk,

good decision with the washers. I think that's what the prototype shows to reduce wear with pins and bearings. You're completely right that this small detail adds a lot of credibility. Did you align the washers with some stainless steel for soldering?

Volker


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on April 23, 2015, 01:27:02 AM
Most satisfactory, Havard ... fingernails notwithstanding. -- Russ


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: EZnKY on April 23, 2015, 06:00:33 AM
That looks great Hauk!

I appreciate the wood for wood and metal for metal approach.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on April 23, 2015, 06:06:36 AM
Hauk,

good decision with the washers. I think that's what the prototype shows to reduce wear with pins and bearings. You're completely right that this small detail adds a lot of credibility. Did you align the washers with some stainless steel for soldering?

Volker

Good question, Volker!
I should indeed have uses stainless steel, but I tried to use a blackened brass rivet that I also put a little oil on and then wiped off the excess. It worked OK for the first three parts, but for the last one the pin got stuck and broke when I tried to pry it loose. Had to drill out the rest of the rivet, but that was no big deal.

Next time I will try to use something stainless...


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: lab-dad on April 23, 2015, 01:47:40 PM
I have used plain music wire and just coated it with graphite from a regular #2 pencil.
Marty


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on April 23, 2015, 02:52:48 PM
I have used plain music wire and just coated it with graphite from a regular #2 pencil.
Marty

That is a good tip!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Ray Dunakin on April 23, 2015, 06:50:43 PM
I have used plain music wire and just coated it with graphite from a regular #2 pencil.
Marty

That is a good tip!

Until the tip breaks. Then it's just pointless.   :D



Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on April 24, 2015, 01:24:26 AM
Ray, go stand in the corner! -- ssuR


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: TRAINS1941 on April 24, 2015, 07:15:46 AM
Hauk

Beautiful work.

Jerry


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Sami on April 24, 2015, 02:37:01 PM
Beautiful details !


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Ray Dunakin on April 24, 2015, 08:08:22 PM
Ray, go stand in the corner! -- ssuR

Already on my way.    :)



Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on May 01, 2015, 05:23:15 PM
A little more work has been done on the wooden parts. Sides for the first wagon has been glued together. I thought this was gong to be a demanding process, but it turned out that it was far easier to glue them together than I thought. The challenge was to keep the tongues and grooves visible on the ends, since these will have the ends of the board visible.

The process I followed was to spread a thin film of white glue on a plate of glass, and carefully touch it with the tongue of the board. This way glue was only applied to the top of the tongue, and with a little care no glue oozed out between the boards. I was careful to not apply glue to the last 3-4 mm at each end of the boards to avoid that the glue hides the tongue and grooves. After working so hard with the T&G boards, it would be a shame to hide them under glue!
 

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/endevegger_01.jpg)

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/endevegger_03.jpg)
 

I also had to do all final sanding and painting before assembling the ends for the same reason. I am happy that the T&G´s are visible on the final parts. It is a quite subtle detail only seen by hawk-eyed observers and in extreme close ups, but I like it! (And it was fun to work out how to make scale T&G boards)

By the way, I changed my mind regarding the red on the sides and settled for a more plain boxcar red. I also used a slightly less thinned paint (Humbrol no. 70 cut with 25% white spirits). Before I brush painted on the red, I stained all sides of the wood with two coats of Silverwood thinned 25% with isopropanol.

Next up is to add all the brass hardware to the sides.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Ray Dunakin on May 01, 2015, 05:48:09 PM
The T&G boards are amazing, and look great!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: lab-dad on May 01, 2015, 07:30:34 PM
I for one would like to see the milling process for the tongue & groove joints!
-marty


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: TRAINS1941 on May 01, 2015, 09:26:52 PM
That looks great.  Nice work.

Jerry


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on May 02, 2015, 12:57:52 AM
I for one would like to see the milling process for the tongue & groove joints!
-marty

Page 1 of this thread!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on May 02, 2015, 01:07:57 AM
Most satisfactory. By the way, fluorescent lighting makes SilverWood disappear. I would hate to see that beautiful weathered wood revert to its original appearance. -- Russ


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Bill Gill on May 02, 2015, 06:01:50 AM
Hauk, Groovy woodwork! My tongue is hanging out just admiring the results!

"By the way, fluorescent lighting makes SilverWood disappear. I would hate to see that beautiful weathered wood revert to its original appearance." -- Russ
Russ! You're becoming a conservator. Also not light fast is the 'popular' concoction of steel wool dissolved in vinegar, and even though the effect is not as nice, some so called India inks are also not light fast as they seem to have an iron component rather than just some form of carbon black


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Chuck Doan on May 02, 2015, 11:31:36 AM
Those boards are excellent. Well worth the effort.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on May 02, 2015, 04:09:50 PM
Most satisfactory. By the way, fluorescent lighting makes SilverWood disappear. I would hate to see that beautiful weathered wood revert to its original appearance. -- Russ

Ouch, what timeframe are we talking here? Months, years, decades?
And what about daylight?
My models has the privilege of beeing displayed in the living room, which has a lot of  daylight.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on May 02, 2015, 04:11:26 PM
Those boards are excellent. Well worth the effort.

Thanks, Chuck! By the way, is it true what Russ is saying about our mutual friend mr. Silverwood? :'(


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Chuck Doan on May 02, 2015, 10:23:46 PM
I have heard of test that show issues, but I can't say that my models have shown any significant effect after several years. My Red Oak Garage still looks fine after 10 years, but it doesn't see much fluorescent light.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on May 03, 2015, 01:06:37 AM
A friend and former member of this forum (who has passed away) had used SilverWood extensively on two or three models. He kept them under fluorescent lights for a few hours a day and after about a year the color had disappeared from the wood. I recall inspecting them carefully and he told me SilverWood doesn't stand up to fluorescent light. Yes, it is true. No, I am not making a joke.

Apparently sunlight and incandescent light do not affect SilverWood in the same way.

Russ


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on May 03, 2015, 04:20:41 AM
Yes, it is true. No, I am not making a joke.

I did not mean to question your claim, Russ!  I trust your sanity. At least most of the time...


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on May 03, 2015, 04:54:54 AM
Those that have followed this thread during the all of its thirteen pages might remember that I struggled a bit with the drilling of the castings.

In fact, I struggled so much that I stopped short of finishing the job. When I started to make the connections between the castings and the rest of the hardware I discovered that I still had quite a few holes to drill.

My heart sunk when I discovered this, and the mood did not improve after breaking the first three drillbits. But suddenly I had a minor flash of insight. Maybe using a piece of brass as a holder for the casting during drilling was not such a great idea after all.

This is how I set up the work last time:

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/messing_11.jpg)

While it keeps the workpiece quite firmly in place, you can not feel when the drill has bored through the casting and into the holder plate. And if you try to bore all the way trough casting/plate/casting I can almost guarantee you that the drill will break. This means not only wasting a drillbit, but also a quite annoying job with a dremel to free the casting from the plate.

To succeed with this rather delicate drilling job you have to drill two holes, one from each side of the fork in the casting. Replacing the brass plate with a piece of stripwood gives an immediate feedback when the drill breaks through the brass.

This is the new setup:

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/drilling_casting_wood.jpg)

The success rate increased immensely using this setup. Part of the reason is probable that the wood also acts like a cushion, helping to avoid putting too much pressure on the drill bit. You build, you learn!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on May 03, 2015, 01:51:58 PM
Those straps are just gorgeous. Glad you found a solution to your problem. -- Russ


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: lab-dad on May 03, 2015, 02:54:09 PM
I know it's too late but I use wood all the time as fixtures, holders, spacers etc,.
Styrene too.
-Marty


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: marc_reusser on May 04, 2015, 12:31:22 AM
Beautiful and delicate work all around. The T&G boards were definitely worth it. that end detail makes all the difference. the straps are lovely as well.
I found the breaking of the bits is and issue with these types f drill bits.....especially the thin ones when doing hand drilling, or when like you drilling into brass, where the slightest bit of seizing/catch in the metal will snap the bit. I found that slightly sticking the bit in some bee's wax before drilling helps cut the loss rate a bit. ...though you need to remember to clean the part well afterward so you don't have residue when going to paint.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Lawton Maner on May 04, 2015, 11:46:15 AM
Do you use any form of lubricant when drilling these holes? 

I find that using Bur Life from Rio Grande Jewelery Supply greatly lengthens bit life.  It comes as a liquid, a waxy compound very much like a Chapstick (which btw makes a good lubricant on the metal lathe) and a solid much like a bar of soap (which also extends the life of jeweler's saw blades immensely).  I use both the liquid and the solid when boring holes in brass all the time.  Also using a different set of bits for plastics seems to make the ones for metal last longer.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Bill Gill on May 04, 2015, 02:04:51 PM
The staps look terrific, glad the drilling is going better too.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Tom Neeson on May 04, 2015, 05:36:09 PM
Hi Hauk

When I worked in a metal shop we would use bacon grease as a lubricant for drilling & tapping.

Worked really well...

Tom


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Lawton Maner on May 05, 2015, 02:26:22 PM
Tallow (beef fat) works as well as bacon fat, and both drive the cat crazy.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on May 05, 2015, 03:02:22 PM
Thanks for the all the advice regarding lubricants for drilling, even if not all of them were exactly kosher!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on May 06, 2015, 01:01:32 AM
Oh, if you want a kosher lubricant, try CHICKENFAT! -- Russ


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Design-HSB on May 06, 2015, 03:44:55 AM
Hauk hello,

I work with these drills in my CNC machine, where it can easily make hundreds of holes with a drill. If I stretch the same drill into the box column drill, I create only a few holes. In the CNC machine I'm working with 12,000 to 15,000 revolutions per minute, which unfortunately never reached the pillar drill. With the Dremel drill drill that goes much better, because yes reached up to 30,000 revolutions per minute. Drilling oil or any other fat I do not use these very fine drills for example, 0.3 mm, since a very high speed is much more important.

Another cause may however also be in the cast material. When the metal is soft and chewy load it also pierce only with the greatest difficulty. MS 58 and nickel silver are hard and can therefore be better drilling. Brass casting is almost always made of MS 63 and the load to drill very poorly.

Continued success in your great work.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on May 28, 2015, 02:47:19 PM
Time flies, and progress on the wagons have been rather slow. But I have finally made the brake shoes for the first wagon. My first idea was to make the brake shoes entirely from etched parts, and there is a picture of this design a couple of pages back. But then I realized it would be a perfect design for a wagon that eventually will lead to short circuits.
 
So I decided that the actual brake shoe should be machined from an insulation material, and the hanger made from a etched part. I got myself a lathe dusted off, and I turned  a ring with a slot for the etched part.
 
Here is a little photo-essay on the process:


(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/bremseskoringen_02.jpg)
 
(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/bremsesko_3.jpg)
 
(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/bremsesko_hjul.jpg)



Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: 1-32 on May 28, 2015, 06:34:23 PM
the plastic brake shoes look really nice
regards kim


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Ray Dunakin on May 28, 2015, 10:36:42 PM
Great work, and a clever solution.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on May 29, 2015, 12:32:03 AM
Most satisfactory. -- Russ


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Design-HSB on May 29, 2015, 04:34:28 PM
Hello Hauk,

nice that it continues and in my view the best solution.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Chuck Doan on May 29, 2015, 10:59:58 PM
Nice.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Peter_T1958 on May 30, 2015, 03:10:25 AM
You know, this thread is something I look forward to each and every time I log in. Also this time a simple but innovative approach that can also encourage those who have not (yet) the possibility of 3D printing!
I love your ore cars!

Cheers, Peter


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on September 10, 2015, 02:17:55 PM
I have not given up my modeling, but as I am building 3 cars simultaneously, a lot of work done lately have been covered in earlier posts.

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/3_vogner_w.jpg)

But last night I broke some new ground. 3 sets of brake cranks have been made:

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/bremsestag_w_03.jpg)

The cranks are strictly handmade, no CNC, 3D printing or CAD involved! The brass knob at the top is kit bashed, as it started as a handrail knob:

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/bremsestag_06_w.jpg)


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Bill Gill on September 10, 2015, 02:57:52 PM
Clever adaptation, good looking brake cranks. Will the brakes be functional?


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on September 10, 2015, 03:00:20 PM
Clever adaptation, good looking brake cranks. Will the brakes be functional?

Possible on one of the wagons. Hard to resist a little show-off potential...


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: lab-dad on September 10, 2015, 06:35:39 PM
Gorgeous!
What is the thread size/pitch?
May have to find a place to use some of those!

Marty


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Ray Dunakin on September 10, 2015, 06:38:33 PM
Wow, stunning work!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Chuck Doan on September 10, 2015, 10:02:33 PM
Excellent work! So nice to see.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on September 10, 2015, 10:59:39 PM
Gorgeous!
What is the thread size/pitch?
May have to find a place to use some of those!

Marty

The threads are M1. Rod size 1mm for dies, Drill size 0,8mm for tapping.



Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on September 11, 2015, 01:12:06 AM
Good heavens, that is just beautiful! Also modestly impressive. -- Russ


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Franck Tavernier on September 11, 2015, 12:35:04 PM
Beautiful work Hawk!  ;)

Franck


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Marc988 on September 15, 2015, 11:59:15 AM
Great work as always.

Looking forward to the working brake crank  ;)


PS: you've got a pm


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on September 30, 2015, 10:42:27 AM
Great work as always.

Looking forward to the working brake crank  ;)


PS: you've got a pm

Sorry for not responding earlier!
You asked about my source for rivets, and as maybe others might be interested, I post the answer to that here as well; I get my rivets from Hassler profile  (http://"http://www.hassler-profile.li")in Lichtenstein.

He has a very good selection of brass and nice silver profile, strips and rods as well.

Good quality, great service.

And here is an image of the crank fitted to the car:

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/bremseratt_vogn_w.jpg)

It works, but I am a bit unsure of the geometry of the bottom L-shaped crank that transfers the movement from the vertical to the horisontal plane. I think  have to redesign this one.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on September 30, 2015, 01:28:49 PM
Something is wrong? Could have fooled me! -- Russ


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hydrostat on October 01, 2015, 12:37:50 AM
Hauk,

do you have any drawings of the prototype's brake system or pictures showing the assemblage?
I'm asking because my following thoughts are completely assumption based. For my opinion this wouldn't work at all. I'd rather expect a shorter brake rod with the thread sitting in front of the beam in an additional bearing beneath. Usually from the spindle nut two articulated bars run to the L-shaped crank. Even if they had an assemblage like you showed a second bearing at the beam would be lacking to prevent stiffness and the L-shaped crank needed to have an elongated hole to provide room to move along the vertical fixed spindle nut. If no elongated hole the upper hole of the short length of the L at least would not be sitting in a fixed bearing but mounted in articulated bars to provide the necessary norizontal movement.

So far about assumptions, conjecture, supposition, hunch, guess, presumption, suspicion, impression, surmise, expectation and speculation.

Volker


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on October 01, 2015, 01:15:15 AM
Volker, stop showing off your obviously comprehensive knowledge of freight car engineering and English vocabulary. Even with a thesaurus I could never amass such a string of synonyms and, as everybody knows, the only thing I can recognize beneath a freight car is the brake cylinder. Go stand in the corner. -- ssuR


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on October 01, 2015, 10:48:32 AM
Hauk,

do you have any drawings of the prototype's brake system or pictures showing the assemblage?
I'm asking because my following thoughts are completely assumption based. For my opinion this wouldn't work at all. I'd rather expect a shorter brake rod with the thread sitting in front of the beam in an additional bearing beneath. Usually from the spindle nut two articulated bars run to the L-shaped crank. Even if they had an assemblage like you showed a second bearing at the beam would be lacking to prevent stiffness and the L-shaped crank needed to have an elongated hole to provide room to move along the vertical fixed spindle nut. If no elongated hole the upper hole of the short length of the L at least would not be sitting in a fixed bearing but mounted in articulated bars to provide the necessary norizontal movement.

So far about assumptions, conjecture, supposition, hunch, guess, presumption, suspicion, impression, surmise, expectation and speculation.

Volker

Here is a prototype picture showing the L-shaped link that causes my concerns:

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/understell-19.jpg)

As you perhaps can see, the bell crank resembles an inverted L. The axis of rotation for the bellcrank is at the top of the short leg, *not* the corner of the L.

When the brake crank is turned to apply the brakes, the long leg of the L moves upward. The corner of the L moves towards the threaded, vertical rod. To me, it seems obvious that this will push the vertical threaded rod outwards (to the right in the picrture above. Maybe this is exactly what happens, but for some reason I find this a bit unesthetical.  And I have never seen a picture of a wagon with this rod in anything but a perfect vertical position.

Not that it really matters.... I am giving up the trains and converting all my railroad equipment to highway vehicles:

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/rubber_wheels.jpg)
 :P




Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hydrostat on October 01, 2015, 11:39:41 AM

Here is a prototype picture showing the L-shaped link that causes my concerns:

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/understell-19.jpg)

As you perhaps can see, the bell crank resembles an inverted L. The axis of rotation for the bellcrank is at the top of the short leg, *not* the corner of the L.

When the brake crank is turned to apply the brakes, the long leg of the L moves upward. The corner of the L moves towards the threaded, vertical rod. To me, it seems obvious that this will push the vertical threaded rod outwards (to the right in the picrture above. Maybe this is exactly what happens, but for some reason I find this a bit unesthetical.  And I have never seen a picture of a wagon with this rod in anything but a perfect vertical position.

Thanks a lot Hauk. Considering your outstanding modeling I was quite sure you would not have contrived anything. Your picture and your words explain much better, what I tried to say intricately. The radial movement of the L's long leg MUST move the threaded rod outward. Now there's the question which solution they found to provide the necessary free scope. If there's only that one bearing at the upper end of the rod it can't be a usual plain bearing because this would cause the rod to get stuck if it tries to move outwards. Do you have a photo of that bearing? Maybe theres a ball joint inside? I mean: The rod may have a fixed ball in the bearing area and the (divided?!) bearing itself has cups inside. This would give the necessary free scope and at the same time prevent the rod from moving upwards when you unlock the brake or downwards when applying it.

However, this is a very interesting technical solution.

As your solid rubber tire solution is.

Volker, from the corner (Hi Nick!).


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on October 06, 2015, 04:42:01 PM
Grab irons were this weekends challenge. They are formed from straight 0,5mm nickel silver rod. I bend them using pliers and bench vise. The flat ends where the holes for the rivets are drilled are flattened using an arbor press.

This is what they look like before drilling the rivet holes:
 
(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/grbirons_02.jpg)

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/handgrabs.jpg)

It is very seldom that a task turns out to be less hassle than I think, but drilling the holes in the grab irons was one of them.

I thought that i would have to mill a fancy jig with lots of recesses and stuff, and solder the irons in place for the drilling, first with a 0,25mm centre drill, then with  a 0,4mm regular drill.

I did need a jig, but it was no more than a 8 mm long and  0,6mm wide slot in a piece of brass. No soldering was necessary, i just covered the iron with a small piece of wood, and drilled right through it using the 0,4mm drill only. Easier done than written, I really should have some pictures of the process. I used the CNC router both for making the slot and doing the drilling.

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/endebjelke_grabirons_W.jpg)

But at least I have a picture of two grab irons test-fitted to the end beam. They are not soldered, so they sag a bit. When they are properly soldered, I dare say they are going to look as good as I hoped!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Chuck Doan on October 06, 2015, 04:47:19 PM
Very impressive!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: michael mott on October 06, 2015, 08:16:28 PM
Very nice work indeed.

Mike


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Ray Dunakin on October 06, 2015, 08:40:15 PM
Very impressive!


Ditto that!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: 1-32 on October 07, 2015, 12:07:36 AM
lovely lovely fabrication pitty to paint it


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on October 07, 2015, 01:23:50 AM
Wow. -- Russ


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on October 07, 2015, 04:50:52 AM
lovely lovely fabrication pitty to paint it

All the metal parts will be chemically blackened, so at least there is no paint film to worry about.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Bill Gill on October 07, 2015, 05:19:06 AM
Very nice to look at.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: fspg2 on December 06, 2015, 10:10:51 AM
Hauck, I am always amazed at how you build your models. Just great !!!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Peter_T1958 on December 06, 2015, 10:33:28 AM
Honestly, if I'd able to create such masterpieces, I would immediately become a railway modeler...  ::)



Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on December 25, 2015, 05:21:37 PM
Not much progress lately, but I have at least assembled the first of the wooden hoppers. I roughed up the wood a bit before assembly but I should have taken more care in the process, it looks a bit, well intentionally roughed up. But as the contrast between the wood and metal parts is a bit high, the wagons will need some additional weathering. With some care and luck, this might blend everything together.

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/montert_kasse_01_w.jpg)

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/montert_kasse_02_w.jpg)

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/montert_kasse_03_.jpg)

Closeup pictures is a harsh critic...


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Ray Dunakin on December 25, 2015, 08:39:59 PM
Looks pretty good. Some weathering will help tie it all together.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on December 26, 2015, 02:02:27 AM
I agree with Ray. You are probably too critical of your work at this point. The car will look very good when you are done. -- Russ


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on December 26, 2015, 03:24:33 AM
I agree with Ray. You are probably too critical of your work at this point. The car will look very good when you are done. -- Russ

I hope you are right!
Now I just have to start practicing with the airbrush, would hate to screw up by laying down a too heavy coat of ore and braking dust.
I have no closeup images of these wagons in service, but I am quite certain they would be dusty from the loading of ore from above.

And finding the right shade of gray for the dust from the roadbed/ballast is quite critical, it is the color that is going to tie everything together. This shade would be used on all rolling stock and scenery, and I need to get it right!



Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: lab-dad on December 26, 2015, 06:05:35 AM
Thats a sweet hot rod!
I also agree the weathering will tie it in good.
Just one comment-"dust" is not all one color.
I would go slowly with several subtle hues.
That way they will look similar but not all alike.
With your talent I foresee no problems.
Always a pleasure to see your work

Marty


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Bill Gill on December 26, 2015, 06:42:55 AM
It's looking really good. I agree with Marty, dust isn't a single color. Also you might experiment with extremely thin washes with a brush. The color will run naturally down the sides and settle where rain would carry the dust and dirt in a way that an airbrush won't. You can pick up any excess color that settles in seams with an almost dry brush.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Peter_T1958 on December 26, 2015, 07:41:17 AM
Hi Håvard
You know, I am a great admirer of your work and I am very impressed with such talent.
However, I also have the impression that the wooden planks look a little bit too much as roughened with sandpaper yet. But I am convinced, with the right quantity of weathering, finally this will look fantastic.

Quote
Also you might experiment with extremely thin washes with a brush. The color will run naturally down the sides and settle where rain would carry the dust and dirt in a way that an airbrush won't.
I think it's good to proceed the weathering stage with caution. The more I try to do the weathering by airbrush I have to learn that this can be a double-edged sword and I am also tending more and more towards building up dust and dirt by washes (But of course I do not know if this works on real wooden planks ...)

For the military modeler there are some really good ready to use products available: MIG, Adam Wilder, Vallejo, ...



Cheers,
Peter


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Sami on December 26, 2015, 09:30:57 AM
It's the great job !


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Peter_T1958 on December 26, 2015, 10:03:56 AM
You are so right! I forgot to mention that ...

 :-\ Peter


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hydrostat on December 26, 2015, 11:56:56 AM
Hauk,

that's some nice christmas surprise! The assembly looks very good and your former concerns about the fittings' surface quality have proven unfounded. But:

[...] However, I also have the impression that the wooden planks look a little bit too much as roughened with sandpaper yet. But I am convinced, with the right quantity of weathering, finally this will look fantastic.

I think Peter's right with the wood, besides that there's something else: To me the peel off effect looks a bit strange. I'd rather expect to see them planks painted with thick color layers and some or a lot of cracks in those layers. If there's peeled off color I'd expect greyish wood underneath rather than this fresh cut wood appearance. Looking at the black and white pictures from your very first post in this thread the fittings might be colored the same brown as the wood is.

Cheers,
Volker


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on December 26, 2015, 02:58:46 PM
Thanks for the input, I really appreciate it! This is the only place that offer constructive criticism!
I agree that the cracks should show grey and not fresh wood color.

I will experiment ( I do have some test pieces!) with a silverwood wash, it should affect the raw wood more than the painted areas.

Since last time I have assembled a second wagon. This one has working doors,  so I can pose my models just like the prototype shot:

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/montert_kasse_04_w.jpg)

Making the working hinges was a lot of hassle, so I might settle with one wagon with working doors. Its not like they are going to be operated like the real thing, they are nowhere smooth enough. But it looks quite good! Besides, a operating layout is not on the near horizon to put it mildly...


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: 1-32 on December 26, 2015, 08:27:00 PM
hi nice wagons.
looking at them i feel that you have to finish a wagon and look at the finished result.to my eye the wood looks fine


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on December 28, 2015, 07:42:53 PM
First, a little color test. The test piece leaning against  the car body has been given a full strength wiping of Silverwood.
In my opinion this tones down the red quite nicely, and the cracks does not look as fresh. On the actual parts I might dilute the Silverwood a little.

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/fargetest_kisvogn_w.jpg)

Second, a little distraction in the form of a work car. This is the closest the Thamshavnbanen ever came to a caboose. Even if it is not prototype at all, I think it will look real nice on the end of a ore train!

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/arbeidsvogn_modell_w.jpg)


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on December 28, 2015, 08:40:11 PM
It may just be the photo but maybe the stained wood could use another application. SilverWood fades. -- Russ


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on December 11, 2016, 02:43:04 PM
More than a 120 days has passed since I last updated this post, but I have not given up modeling.
Just bumping the thread with a photo of four brake stands (?) :

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/bremseslanger.jpg)


Boring stuff to make as I have built several oft hem before. But they just have to be made. Next time I think I will have them cast.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: fspg2 on December 11, 2016, 03:11:50 PM
Hauk, good to hear that it will go on.
The brake stands looks good!
Sometimes boring stuff will be rewarded by the result  :)


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Ray Dunakin on December 11, 2016, 11:09:53 PM
Nice to see some progress again.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Bill Gill on December 12, 2016, 06:01:45 AM
Hauk, Good to see you're still working on this project. Nice details with the brake stands.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Peter_T1958 on December 12, 2016, 01:59:01 PM
At long last we have received a sign of life from your work. I am very happy, thank you!
 ;) Peter
 


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on December 12, 2016, 01:59:55 PM
Building brake stands or other repetitive details is a little like performing music: You may already have played the piece a thousand times but the challenge is what you bring to it on any given day. Very adequate fabrication. -- Russ


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hydrostat on December 13, 2016, 02:27:01 PM
Hauk,

glad to see some very fine progress! Hope to see more ...

Volker


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on December 13, 2016, 03:48:55 PM
Hauk,

glad to see some very fine progress! Hope to see more ...

Volker

Did some more boring work tonight, so things are moving along slowly...


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on December 14, 2016, 04:05:10 PM
Thanks a lot for the interest in my ramblings!

A little progress report tonight. To make room for the axle points I needed to mill a 1,1mm wide and 1,8mm deep slot in the back of the leaf spring/journal box castings: 

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/fjederpaket_w.jpg)

The brass alloy in these castings seems to be very hard, and this seemingly trivial task came at cost of 4 mill bits. Fortunately, they were cheap Chinese eBay bits, but perhaps this also was part of the problem?

The bits were regular steel, 2 flute. For the first attempts I used 2mm/sec feed and the cuts 0,3mm deep. Spindle speed around 20 000. But as the bits broke at the very end of the slot milling, I decreased the feed speed to 1mm/sec. Then it worked quite OK.

Any suggestions from you serious machinists out there? Should I have used a carbide milling bit? 3 or 4 flutes? Any other opinions on milling and drilling brass castings?


To finish off tonights report, here is on of the two underframes I am building in parallell:

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/chassis_w.jpg)

Three nights of work produced the swan necks, installation of the couplers, preparing and installing of the spring/journalboxes and adding the journal box covers. Not to bad in my not so humble opinion!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on December 15, 2016, 02:37:31 AM
Your work is just gorgeous.

Did you use a lubricant when you drilled? I know virtually nothing about such things but remember reading about lubrication helping to preserve drill bits, cutters, and other tools.

Russ


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Bill Gill on December 15, 2016, 07:31:18 AM
Watching with great enjoyment! It looks vey good. You got a lot done in a night.
I got some cheap Chinese bits for my pin vise and broke several drilling into plain old styrene - your bits may have been a large part of your breakage as well.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Allan G on December 15, 2016, 08:15:42 PM
I love what Hauk calls "a little progress"! Wonderful, beautiful, incredible progress.....Allan


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: lab-dad on December 16, 2016, 09:51:32 AM
I wish you modeled in 1/16th scale!
Stunning as always!
Marty


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: sbranstetter on December 16, 2016, 10:07:32 AM
Wonderful work!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on January 22, 2017, 01:06:47 PM
Thanks for all the encouragement, folks!

Since last post I have spent a lot of time thinking about how to finish the underframes. Paint or blackening, or both?

I tried to blacken one of the underframes a while back, but the result was a major disaster. In fact, it was so bad that I did not want to post anything about it, was too depressing. Long story short, the combination of several rounds in a ultrasonic cleaner and long baths in blackening etched away a lot of the solder joints, and I had to to some serious repair work that took an awful lot of time.

So it took some time to build up the courage to have another go.

I decided to use a procedure like this:

1. 5 minutes in the ultrasonic cleaner. Used some industrial grade detergent to ensure a squeaky clean model

2. Brush on full strength Birchwood Casey blackening solution, working vigorously with the brush to prevent crud build-up. Rinse with water every know and then to control the process.

3. When happy with the color, rinse with lots of water.

4. Dunk in neutralizing bath, I used a weak Caustic Soda solution.

5. Rinse with lots and lots of water.

This worked out pretty well. I was especially happy that 5 minutes in the ultrasonic cleaner was enough to get the metal clean enough to make the blackening take. There is a lot of nooks and crannies on the model that is impossible to clean mechanically.

But I got a lot of white crud on the solder joints, which I suspect is a result of the Caustic soda. So perhaps the solution was too strong, and that washing soda might have been a better choice. If anyone with real chemistry skills could educate me on the proper way to neutralize a blackening solution, I would be very happy! I am dead sure that it is vital to neutralize the acids in the blackening. I have for instance blackened brass screws without proper neutralizing, and after just a couple of years they were very brittle and broke when I tried to loosen them.

As my wife was away for the weekend, I could play in the kitchen with my potions. The advantage was access to water. The drawback was that the lighting was not as good as in the workshop, so I misjudged the color of the blackening a bit. In better light i found that I would have prefered them to be a bit darker. But I think it might OK after weathering is applied.

Take a look for yourself and let me know what you think. I trust you to be honest!

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/3_understell_svertet.jpg)
 
(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/understell_svertet_01.jpg)
 
(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/folgevogn_svertet.jpg)
 
(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/kisvogn_svertet_02.jpg)
 
(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/kisvogn_svertet_01.jpg)



Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on January 22, 2017, 03:19:41 PM
To my eye, the finish looks excellent. A new car might look okay with things as they are. If not, the metal blackening seems an ideal starting point for weathering. I would consider your experiment a success. -- Russ


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on January 22, 2017, 04:30:02 PM
To my eye, the finish looks excellent. A new car might look okay with things as they are. If not, the metal blackening seems an ideal starting point for weathering. I would consider your experiment a success. -- Russ

Thanks, Russ!
The cars will be  rather heavily weathered, they are intended to show about  18-20 yrs of service.
But I would like the metal to show through, I kind of like that after the blackening you still can see that the underframes are made of metal. I dont know if it really is prototypical, but why not allow for a little impressionism?


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Bill Gill on January 22, 2017, 05:13:50 PM
I agree with Russ that as is in the photos looks good for new cars, and the blackening is a good start for the heavier weathering you plan to do, Very nice work. Must have been frustrating to have the earlier solder joint deteriorate after the ultrasonic cleaning and slackening, but your recovery hides all traces of the problem, so well done.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Ray Dunakin on January 22, 2017, 08:25:45 PM
I have to agree with the others. The blackening looks good already and with a bit of weathering should be just right.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hydrostat on January 23, 2017, 02:17:18 PM
Hauk,

I do agree, too. That's a good base for things to come. If you ever have an opportunity to try gravoxide: This leaves behind rather matte stains, but I never rinsed or cleaned the parts that intense as you did afterwards. Instead of an ultrasonic cleaner you may use an old electrical tooth brush and some scouring powder to clean the parts? Additionally I cook the parts some minutes in water with detergent, to get rid of oil/fat stains. The brass castings might still look a bit too much like brass at this stage? Maybe tinning the couplers and blackening them with some tiffany supply may be useful to avoid brass shining through when they are put into service.

Cheers,
Volker


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on February 13, 2017, 03:45:17 PM
A little progress. The lettering on the wagons were added with the help of etched stencils:

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/29_30.jpg)

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/29.jpg)

Some weathering, a few details more, final assembly and the job is finally done.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: nalmeida on February 13, 2017, 04:44:08 PM
They look fantastic Hauk!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Chuck Doan on February 13, 2017, 05:26:16 PM
These are just so beautiful. A lot of delicate work that is paying off. Those stencils are great!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Ray Dunakin on February 13, 2017, 07:46:00 PM
Fantastic! So much fine, delicate detail!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on February 14, 2017, 02:47:31 AM
I can only agree with the other guys. Simply terrific modeling and very inspirational. -- Russ


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Bill Gill on February 14, 2017, 06:42:53 AM
Hauk, These are excellently built and wonderful to look at.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: lab-dad on February 14, 2017, 07:07:50 AM
I think I might like to build one of those "folgevogn_svertet" cars!
Would look great in 1/16th scale! ;D

-Marty


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: TRAINS1941 on February 14, 2017, 08:18:34 AM
Great modeling.  The coloring and details perfect.

Jerry


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on February 14, 2017, 08:35:03 AM
I think I might like to build one of those "folgevogn_svertet" cars!
Would look great in 1/16th scale! ;D

-Marty

I can send you a set of 1/16 drawings any day!



Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: lab-dad on February 14, 2017, 10:20:12 AM
PM Sent! ;D


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on February 14, 2017, 02:27:30 PM
Several years ago I designed a freelance American ore car from an earlier era. Your model's hardware and body design are similar in some ways to what I drew. -- Russ


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hydrostat on February 15, 2017, 12:44:47 PM
Hauk,

I thoroughly enjoy every rare post of your progress with that outstanding model. I recall that there was a discussion about wood coloring; I'm still convinced that the wood appearance would benefit from a rather greyish subsurface than this bright brownish one. And I just say that to live up to my reputation as a nitpicker. I can't wait to see pictures of the finished models in natural light.

Volker


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Peter_T1958 on February 15, 2017, 03:31:54 PM
Ok, again I must confess that I am a huge fan of your wagon models. To me, it's on of the finest craftmanship I know and the subject is absolute my taste.
But... Volkers points out a fact that I a) couldn't put into word, and b) I did not dare to say as the whole work is far above the level I will ever achieve.
I don't know how far you are willing to go with the wathering. From my point of view, you have the problem (or choice?) to try a heavy weathering with the risk to spoil all your fantastic work or you leave them as they are (perhaps with some subtle weathering) but in return you will obtain that feeling of wood and metal.
I always hate such decisions and put them off as long as I can. But you surely feel, where my heart is...
Yes, I hope to motivate you to go the risky way neverthelss!

Cheers,
Peter



Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on February 15, 2017, 04:36:50 PM
Volker makes a valid point, and I will give the wooden parts an wash of light grey stain. I just have to muster the courage! The light brown color is a result of distressing the wood after painting, the sandpaper cut right through the grey stained color under the red topcoat. But as this "opens" the wood, the parts should take stain well without darkening the red too much. I have tried it on a test piece way back, and I have sort of forgot about the whole thing!

I will keep you posted. (Pun indeed intended)

Speaking of paint, tonight I painted the wheels for the wagons and started experimenting with the painting of the underframes.
As much as I like the blackened bare metal look, I think the underframes need a bit of paint to blend in with the wheels, and also make the brass castings blend in with the nickel-silver etchings.  At the same time I wanted a hint of the original metal to show through the paint. 
I started with the work car as this one has all the metalwork in place. I started by giving it a good bath in thinner.
Then I mixed up a cup of Tamiya Black (XF2) and dark grey with a ratio of 1+3 black+grey. Thinned it with cellulose thinner (1+2 paint+thinner.) Then I airbrushed a very thin coat to the underframe. The wheels were painted the same color, but with a heavier coat.

After the grey I misted on a layer of Tamiya XF64 reddish brown as the first step of weathering.

I then assembled the wagon, and this is what it looks like right now:
 
(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/arbeidsvogn_nesten_w.jpg)
 
(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/bremsevogn_nesten_2_w.jpg)
 

I would love to have sincere opinions on how this looks at the present stage, and how to proceed. All opinions and suggestions are welcome. The wagon needs some more weathering, but not as much as the mineral wagons.

By the way, here is a picture of one of the stencils:

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/stencil.jpg)

The crude cutouts on each side of the stencil was made with a Dremel by yours truly. The fold-up sides of the stencils came in conflict with the hardware on the wagonside... Looks horrible, but it works. Made masking off the wagon a bit more of a challenge, though. As you can see from the lack of paint in the middle of the stencil, I used a litte glue clamp to keep the stencil as close to the wagon side as possible. Using stencils like this is nt for the faint of hearted, it is very easy to mess up. I have one side on each wagon that are not 100%, but fortunately you can see only one side of the wagons at a time!



Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on February 16, 2017, 02:15:11 AM
I'm not sure what you have in mind for painting the underframe but, to my eye, it might need only a light mist to suggest color rather than something more substantial. -- Russ


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Peter_T1958 on February 16, 2017, 02:51:44 AM
I would love to have sincere opinions on how this looks at the present stage, and how to proceed. All opinions and suggestions are welcome.

Whow, that I a great start indeed and it's already a tremendous difference. As I have never painted a rail wagon (my roots lie in military modeling) I can only assume, what I would do. Definitely I would go with layers of highly diluted paint for better control, as you started here. But, in my opinion, some enamel filter (i.e. MIG products) provides the most effect to the model. Finally a slight overspray with some dust color would blend in all painting steps. Here an good example of what I have in my mind:
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff181/Peter_T1958/StSS/324475K_zpshspodgat.jpg~original) (http://s240.photobucket.com/user/Peter_T1958/media/StSS/324475K_zpshspodgat.jpg.html)



Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Bill Gill on February 16, 2017, 07:58:32 AM
The present stage of weathering of the frames looks like clean, painted steel that has been out in the weather and has rusted and faded a little, like a restored wagon on exhibit in an outdoor museum. It is an excellent representation of weathering effects upon the metal itself. However, if the environment these cars operate in is dusty or muddy, then a bit of dust and dried mud will enhance the in-use appearance. Very thin washes rather than shovelfuls troweled onto every surface.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on February 16, 2017, 10:09:57 AM
Thanks for all the input! I will proceed carefully with the weathering, and hope to show some progress by the end of the weekend.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on February 16, 2017, 02:56:54 PM
After the constructive criticism of the "yellow wood" I decided to try and tone down things with an wash of Silverwood stain. Fortunately, I had the sense to test the stain on a scrap piece  with lettering. It turned out that the rubbing alcohol dissolved the  Tamiya paint in seconds.

So I had to go for something waterbased. I decided to try the oldest trick in the book, diluted india ink. I was a bit concerned that a water based stain would warp the wood parts, so I applied the stain very sparingly. I am a bit uncertain how well it worked.
I think it had some effect, but a little of the improvement is possible due to a more correct white balance ing this latest picture.
But please note that in the second picture  the wooden box  is placed on a  piece of grey cardboard, on the earlier images the models are placed on a much more yellow piece of MDF.

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/trekasse_overvasket_w.jpg)


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hydrostat on February 16, 2017, 03:20:31 PM
No doubt - it's on it's way. But I think they could be even more greyish. You may try gouache for that, too, but it may take some more water for a good effect - which may be a problem with the wood. Maybe dry applied greyish pigments could work. By the way: Which color/stains would the transported material have left behind?

Volker


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on February 16, 2017, 04:29:01 PM
By the way: Which color/stains would the transported material have left behind?

Volker

I am certain that the wagons must have been very dusty. The were loaded from the top with rather fine ore. More gravel than coal to put it that way.

I have found some pictures that suggests the colors. They are of are of more modern wagons, but  I think they give the right idea.

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/kisvogn_130.jpg)

Note the ore in the wagon, it looks a bit blueish grey, doesn't it?

But then again, this image suggest that I should use a more reddishbrowngrey:

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/kistog_farger.jpg)

Maybe it is the braking dust that is dominant? The railroad was all downhill from the mines, so the brakes must have been applied quite a lot.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: lab-dad on February 17, 2017, 07:01:49 AM
For the weathering of the caboose/VW i would start with the different "things" that happen;
Oil at the right locations
Grease at the right locations
Some graphite to represent rubbed metal
And some powdered rust where it would occur.
Some brake dust and then finally some road dust. soot and general yuck.
Then a little rain/dust on the body as well.
As others stated; go slow, thin laters over time like real life.

Thanks again for the drawing!

-Marty


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Allan G on February 19, 2017, 09:43:00 PM
Agree with everyone! Love the lettering.....Allan


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on February 20, 2017, 02:11:07 AM
I'm looking at this page at a few minutes after midnight February20 and some images are missing. I would guess the reason is that they were linked and the links got broken or disappeared when we changed servers. I don't quite know how things like that work when you move all your data from one computer to another but if others are having the same problem as I am, I think we're out of luck. -- Russ


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on February 20, 2017, 05:42:19 AM
I'm looking at this page at a few minutes after midnight February20 and some images are missing. I would guess the reason is that they were linked and the links got broken or disappeared when we changed servers. I don't quite know how things like that work when you move all your data from one computer to another but if others are having the same problem as I am, I think we're out of luck. -- Russ

No, I think there is a server issue with my provider. I am looking into it.

Edit: It is fixed now, seems it was a minor redirecting problem with my photo hosting service.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: TRAINS1941 on February 20, 2017, 07:58:50 AM
Yes everything is here.

Jerry


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on February 20, 2017, 12:52:56 PM
Well that was weird. I can see everything now, too. Except its about eleven hours later .... -- Russ


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: TRAINS1941 on February 20, 2017, 11:00:41 PM
Well that was weird. I can see everything now, too. Except its about eleven hours later .... -- Russ

First thing to go is the eyes!!!  :D

Jerry


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on February 21, 2017, 12:05:00 AM
Getting close now..

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/dagens_dobbel.jpg)


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Ray Dunakin on February 21, 2017, 01:09:43 AM
Stunning!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: mad gerald on February 21, 2017, 01:15:42 AM
... terrific ...  :o


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: marc_reusser on February 21, 2017, 01:32:49 AM
Beautiful work. So nice to see this project come together.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on February 21, 2017, 01:52:22 AM
Beautiful work. So nice to see this project come together.

So nice to hear from you again.
This place is not the same without you.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Bill Gill on February 21, 2017, 06:23:43 AM
wonderful work


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: marc_reusser on February 22, 2017, 11:36:06 PM
wonderful work

Thanks. :) Maybe once I have something to contribute :)


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Chuck Doan on February 23, 2017, 12:30:55 AM
Along with everything else, those are a very interesting car design.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Bill Gill on February 23, 2017, 06:53:23 AM
Marc, Your contributions are always a terrific source of ideas, techniques and photos. please do join in again.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on March 24, 2017, 11:28:00 AM
A little sneak preview of the upcoming article in NG&IRMR (https://narrowgaugeandindustrial.co.uk/):

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/complete_08.jpg)

The snow is baking soda, but the sky is the real deal. The temperature was quite authtentic, too. I was shooting the images between snowfalls!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on March 24, 2017, 12:23:27 PM
An exquisite photo of an exquisite model. Most satisfactory. -- Russ


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Bill Gill on March 24, 2017, 06:03:17 PM
Hauk, that is terrific! You picked a great day to shoot outside to compliment your model.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Ray Dunakin on March 24, 2017, 10:35:51 PM
Great shot of a great model!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Sami on April 03, 2017, 09:58:53 AM
It's very nice model !


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on November 25, 2017, 03:18:03 PM
A little postscript on the ore cars. The article made the cover of the Narrow Gauge & Industrial Railway Modeling Review. I know, you should not blow your own horn too hard, but even my wife thought that getting your model on the cover of NG&IMR was quite cool!

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0947/6392/products/issue_112_540x.jpg?v=1510418142)

This is a quite nice magazine, I recommend checking it out.

Here is a  larger version of the cover shot:

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/30_03_FS.jpg)

Since last time I have added airbuses to the cars. I got a tip that a German modeller made brass castings for glad-hands that could be fitted with tiny magnets so the hoses can be coupled. I think it is a nice touch.

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/bremseslanger_kisvogn.jpg)

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/bremseslanger_kisvogn2.jpg)

Even if I have not posted much lately, I have been quite busy in the workshop. I am trying to master the lathe, the goal is to make my own wheel sets. I have worked out how to make tyres, now I have to stort working  on machining brass castings and assemble complete wheel sets.

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/wheels.jpg)

The wheel profile is Proto:48, made with a ProtoCraft profile tools.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Bill Gill on November 25, 2017, 03:30:40 PM
Hauk, Congratulations! Good cover shot.
What size are the magnets in the glad-hands?
Your tyres came out well too.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: finescalerr on November 25, 2017, 04:01:11 PM
Your model deserves every bit of recognition it gets. It and the rest of the cars are most satisfactory. -- Russ


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on November 25, 2017, 04:59:14 PM
Thanks for the encouraging comments as usual!

The magnets are 1mm in diameter  and 1mm heigh neodymium magnets. You get them on eBay, they are quite affordable.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Ray Dunakin on November 25, 2017, 08:03:40 PM
Congrats!! Your model is incredible and very deserving of the cover!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hydrostat on November 26, 2017, 03:49:39 AM
Congrats, Hauk! More than well deserved. The only give away in the cover shot is the brassish shine ariund the buffer. What a luck you're able now to make your own wheels. This is something!


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Hauk on November 26, 2017, 03:58:57 AM
Congrats, Hauk! More than well deserved. The only give away in the cover shot is the brassish shine ariund the buffer. What a luck you're able now to make your own wheels. This is something!

Thanks!
You are absolutely right about the brass shining through. Have give them a little workout with a cotton bud and some blackening.


Title: Re: Wooden ore cars
Post by: Design-HSB on November 26, 2017, 05:34:43 AM
Hauck,

telling you what a great modeler you are would be an understatement.

So the question is, do not you even like to tell how you made the tires?