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General Category => Modellers At Work => Topic started by: Barney on January 05, 2014, 05:15:52 AM



Title: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: Barney on January 05, 2014, 05:15:52 AM
At the start of a new year it looks like my main objective (as last year) is to see how many unfinished projects I can achieve so its off into the unknown again but rely try this time to finish something !
I have been looking at small saw mills and thought I would start with the "power plant" a small steam engine but can not find any measurement's as a  rough guide to the size of these things -found loads of photos all museum type of things with nothing to take a measurement from or a guide size of flywheel or a person standing by the side looking at Marty's "Corliss project" he also states the same "Unfortunately I was not able to find plans/blueprints so I drew my own scaling the plans from photos and the few know dimensions."
any help would much be appreciated and you never know I might break my habit of wandering of and actually finish a project !!
Barney


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: 5thwheel on January 05, 2014, 09:20:03 AM
If you find the engine size listed it should get you pretty close to the scale.  A 9 X 12 engine would give you a nine inch bore and a twelve inch stroke.  Add about four inches to each to allow for casting and you should be pretty close.  What do you consider a small sawmill?
Bill


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: shropshire lad on January 05, 2014, 11:58:01 AM
Does it have to be a steam engine ? If I was building a sawmill I would run it with an old lorry engine . What about an old Matador ? Surely you , the Lorry Engine King of The World could bang something together in your sleep . If you slept .

  Happy New Year , Grinch !

  Nick


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: Barney on January 05, 2014, 02:59:58 PM
Bill - well lets say I'm not talking "Westside Lumber Company" the best example would be the type in the book - The Kerry Tramway " on page 70 it shows a plan and a description of a "Scotch" portable saw mill which uses a 30hp steam engine (portable type on wheels) I'm going for a permanent version which uses a mill engine normally mounted on a concrete block -so its something that could handle logs up to 2ft/2ft 6in diameter.
Nick that's to easy! and you know I love a good headache ! it keeps me awake - saving the 1/35th stuff for the Euro show and going big to 16mm to the foot built 3 versions of steam engines in 1/35th all in the bin now things just did not look right !
Barney
going big with a headache.


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: lab-dad on January 05, 2014, 03:44:18 PM
Barney
I have a lovely little (horizontal) "mill engine" kit manufactured by Charles Brohmer.
The overall length is about 14 feet.
The flywheel is 4.6 feet.
It is a 8"!by 12" (bore and throw)
I could scan and send the elevations and some basic dentions.
Sadly there are mone on the elevations.

Marty


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: NORCALLOGGER on January 05, 2014, 11:32:28 PM
Barney perhaps you can pick something up from some of our "Mill" videos.
Here are a few of them that show the main engine a little bit
Rick

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tGtzvEFvjA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_wdRkxT7GI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tj_avrB-0nE&feature=youtu.be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKNAWpbUfw8&feature=youtu.be


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: Krusty on January 06, 2014, 03:39:44 AM
Quote
the best example would be the type in the book - The Kerry Tramway " on page 70 it shows a plan and a description of a "Scotch" portable saw mill which uses a 30hp steam engine (portable type on wheels)

Would a de-wheeled Clayton portable do?


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: Krusty on January 06, 2014, 04:35:37 AM
Robey Portable c1907.


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: Barney on January 07, 2014, 10:34:05 AM
Thanks to every one for the information you have sent in - much appreciated  at the end of it all I'm going  for the wheel-less portable type this seems to be the one for smaller saw mills and I have even made a start !
(http://images45.fotki.com/v148/photos/2/1908522/11927095/photo-vi.jpg) (http://public.fotki.com/SRMacc/16-mm-to-the-foot/start-1-jpg.html)Hosted on Fotki (http://www.fotki.com)

(http://images14.fotki.com/v390/photos/2/1908522/11927095/photo-vi.jpg) (http://public.fotki.com/SRMacc/16-mm-to-the-foot/start-2-jpg.html)Hosted on Fotki (http://www.fotki.com)


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: Gordon Ferguson on January 07, 2014, 10:46:38 AM
That's a relief, was worried that steam might mean an end to Lego blocks  ;D


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: Ray Dunakin on January 07, 2014, 11:31:48 AM
Nice start!


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: SandiaPaul on January 07, 2014, 01:16:47 PM
Doh! I just remember these pics I took up in Vermont. The engine is a bit different from the "usual" portable and you have already gone down a path. Maybe the details will be of some use.  I thought it was an interesting looking machine. Ignore the colors(if you can)

It starts with this pic and goes on for a few more:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/20941728@N05/11822921333/

Paul



Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: Barney on January 07, 2014, 03:34:11 PM
Paul - Thanks very interesting photos and that paint job ! looks like some one used all there old paint up when they cleared the shed out
Barney


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: Barney on January 23, 2014, 06:06:52 AM
Made a start on the boiler – I have gone for the shorter version - cannot make out what the lump of wood is for on the side - it just makes the wheel support brackets an elaborate casting! But still they seem to leave them on! even when the wheels are taken off
Barney
Run out of rivets again   
(http://images42.fotki.com/v1630/photos/2/1908522/12765460/photo-vi.jpg) (http://public.fotki.com/SRMacc/trumpers-mill/start-1-2-jpg.html)Hosted on Fotki (http://www.fotki.com)
acrylic Rod and tube used for the basic shapes
 (http://images9.fotki.com/v1493/photos/2/1908522/12765460/photo-vi.jpg) (http://public.fotki.com/SRMacc/trumpers-mill/start-4-jpg.html)Hosted on Fotki (http://www.fotki.com)
and of course the Lego blocks
(http://images108.fotki.com/v1629/photos/2/1908522/12765460/photo-vi.jpg) (http://public.fotki.com/SRMacc/trumpers-mill/boiler-side-2-jpg.html)Hosted on Fotki (http://www.fotki.com)


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: Barney on January 23, 2014, 06:12:11 AM
Grandt Line rivets / nuts and bolts and some Titchy trains bolts

 (http://images45.fotki.com/v148/photos/2/1908522/12765460/photo-vi.jpg) (http://public.fotki.com/SRMacc/trumpers-mill/boiler-side-jpg.html)Hosted on Fotki (http://www.fotki.com)

(http://images18.fotki.com/v60/photos/2/1908522/12318490/photo-vi.jpg) (http://public.fotki.com/SRMacc/2013-08-19-001/10767-a-jpg.html)Hosted on Fotki (http://www.fotki.com)


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: Juke Joint on January 23, 2014, 07:25:17 AM
Very Impressive !

Philip


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: Ray Dunakin on January 23, 2014, 02:09:59 PM
Nice!

My guess is, the wood block is to spread the force from the axle, protecting the boiler/firebox from stress.


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: Terry Harper on January 24, 2014, 05:57:00 AM
Here is a (low quality) photos of a mill we found out in the wilds of Maine. It was rather remote - 40 miles from the nearest paved road (and neighbor) and 1 mile from the closest logging road. Anyway, the power plant consisted of a horizontal boiler set on a crude stone foundation made from flat stones with minimal mortar. The small steam engine was used to drive a Westinghouse D.C. generator (still on the site). Apparently - as evident by the parts & pieces laying around - they had a large steam engine they used to power the mill itself but it had been removed.

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-kDvq5GNyXVc/UuGct3dPykI/AAAAAAAACEM/YHHe0542mto/s1152/100_2113.JPG)

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ksVeVFerf7Y/UuGdKhI6ExI/AAAAAAAACEc/YMI4VaPGbBU/s1152/100_2111.JPG)

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-f1Hsyzy5NPs/UuGdNs1GbcI/AAAAAAAACEk/tfVm72bB4Yg/s800/100_2119.JPG)

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-B9ebIbYuUek/UuGdiQQ3EfI/AAAAAAAACE0/Rfv8eL31qGU/s1152/100_3203.JPG)


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: Scratchman on January 24, 2014, 11:26:53 AM
The wood beam and axles are parts of ether  a wagon or a set of truck wheels. The wagon or truck wheels could be used to move the engine from place to place and then be easily removed and the engine set in place for use on a set of sills. I would set the engine on  a permanent set of sills and do away with the wagon parts but I don’t know what kind of saw mill you are modeling. There should be two mounting seats one at the front and one at the rear of the fire box just like the photo shows. I got this information from the book “Encyclopedia of American Steam Engines” (by Jack Norbeck) there are photos of both the wagon and truck wheels.

Barney I’m a big fan of your work but  this boiler has many problem. There are details missing and some details that are just not right.

Gordon Birrell


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: Barney on January 24, 2014, 01:07:05 PM
Thanks to you all for your comments –Ray with reference to the wood I think that sounds about right
Terry those photos have got real atmosphere thanks for sharing them
Gordon please put me right about what’s wrong! But remember I’m a “freelance prototype modeller” or you might even call me a “look alike” type.  My intentions are to go up the middle and not particularly model any particular prototype type – I have looked at many of these boiler/ engines even of the same make and they all seem to differ in many ways. But I would much appreciate your views.
Thanks Barney


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: Barney on January 24, 2014, 01:35:56 PM
A single wheel bracket
(http://images42.fotki.com/v1453/photos/2/1908522/12318490/photo-vi.jpg) (http://public.fotki.com/SRMacc/2013-08-19-001/single-wheel-fixings-jpg.html)Hosted on Fotki (http://www.fotki.com)

 I know its a different make and a short version - but I love it
 (http://images9.fotki.com/v1493/photos/2/1908522/12318490/photo1-vi.jpg) (http://public.fotki.com/SRMacc/2013-08-19-001/a-shorty-jpg.html)Hosted on Fotki (http://www.fotki.com)


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: Scratchman on January 24, 2014, 07:44:18 PM
Barney,there's a good photo (the Eclipse) of some of my problems #1 the steam dome that is what they look like you can't freelance that detail. # 2 the nice clean pattern on the stay bolts on all sides of the fire-box (I use a smaller rivet  for the stay bolts than the rivets I'm using on the seams) #3 You have too many  rivets or nuts.above stay-bolts on the fire box and the back-head.

Are you modeling an engine with the seats for a wagon or is your axles mounted on the side of the fire box? If so you don't need the wagon seats.

Gordon  Birrell

http://www.flickr.com/photos/77318580@N00/




     


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: Scratchman on January 24, 2014, 09:40:35 PM
Here's a model that shows a two piece truck wheel set-up. If the front and back wheels were connected with framing it would be a wagon.

 http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aft/125670/Default.aspx

Gordon Birrell

http://www.flickr.com/photos/77318580@N00/


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: marc_reusser on January 25, 2014, 01:12:19 AM
Wonderful piece as always Barney. Looking forward to the next progress pics.



Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: Barney on January 25, 2014, 12:29:58 PM
Gordon – I’m getting confused here (that’s not a hard thing to be at my age and time of life) all this technical stuff – size of rivets – position of brackets – missing brackets – style of steam dome – you are right and correct in all your statements and I truly appreciate all the information and help you have given me  but and I Quote from our Gordon “the flying Scotsman” this side of the pond there is always a but I’m not building a Frick Eclipse I’m building a plausible freelance steam engine taking ideas from all types of portable steam engines  plus of course the total confusion I gained when I looked at 14 versions of Frick Eclipse portable steam engine ! All of which were the same type and model all with different bits and pieces added or removed throughout there life time .
I enjoy building my models this way as long as it measures up ok and it looks like it’s a working piece of engineering with all the bits and pieces in the right place. It also helps in understanding how things work before I took this project on I had no idea how things like a steam governor worked the governors balls and all that! and the workings of the saw mill I had a idea but got it wrong in so many ways , but thanks to all you guys out there I owe you a lot for all the information I have gained
Thanks again
Barney



Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: finescalerr on January 25, 2014, 01:41:47 PM
Well, Barney, if that's the case, don't forget the propeller and stirring rod. -- ssuR

(I know, I know. But I've lost my cotton pickin' mind. Hmmm. It might still be in Cleveland ....)


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: marc_reusser on January 31, 2014, 12:05:53 AM
Ran across these in my files...don't know if they are of interest.


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: marc_reusser on January 31, 2014, 12:07:35 AM
.....


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: marc_reusser on January 31, 2014, 02:49:07 AM
....


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: marc_reusser on January 31, 2014, 02:49:43 AM
....


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: Barney on January 31, 2014, 09:55:15 AM
Thanks Mark for the Photos - Run out of space so started again in 1/35th scale
Barney.
(http://images15.fotki.com/v1626/photos/2/1908522/12780575/photo-vi.jpg) (http://public.fotki.com/SRMacc/the-new-trumpers-mi/new-1-jpg.html)Hosted on Fotki (http://www.fotki.com)

(http://images108.fotki.com/v1623/photos/2/1908522/12780575/photo-vi.jpg) (http://public.fotki.com/SRMacc/the-new-trumpers-mi/new-2-jpg.html)Hosted on Fotki (http://www.fotki.com)

(http://images18.fotki.com/v438/photos/2/1908522/12780575/photo1-vi.jpg) (http://public.fotki.com/SRMacc/the-new-trumpers-mi/new-3-jpg.html)Hosted on Fotki (http://www.fotki.com)


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: finescalerr on January 31, 2014, 01:39:15 PM
Now you have to install all those rivets again! -- Russ


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: Barney on February 23, 2014, 11:31:26 AM
Now stocked up with rivets /nuts and bolts and nearly finished the FREELANCE boiler for the saw mill in 1/35th
Barney
(http://images61.fotki.com/v665/photos/2/1908522/12780575/photo-vi.jpg) (http://public.fotki.com/SRMacc/the-new-trumpers-mi/boiler-1-jpg.html)Hosted on Fotki (http://www.fotki.com)
(http://images16.fotki.com/v258/photos/2/1908522/12780575/photo-vi.jpg) (http://public.fotki.com/SRMacc/the-new-trumpers-mi/boiler-2-jpg.html)Hosted on Fotki (http://www.fotki.com)
(http://images15.fotki.com/v1624/photos/2/1908522/12780575/photo-vi.jpg) (http://public.fotki.com/SRMacc/the-new-trumpers-mi/boiler-3-jpg.html)Hosted on Fotki (http://www.fotki.com)


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: lab-dad on February 23, 2014, 12:51:53 PM
Looking good!
Cant wait to see it in paint.
Looks like it has chicken pox now!
Marty


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: Chuck Doan on February 23, 2014, 06:52:49 PM
Model pox. Looks great!


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: finescalerr on February 24, 2014, 03:37:30 AM
Are you certain real freelance boilers had that many rivets? -- ssuR


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: TRAINS1941 on February 24, 2014, 01:28:15 PM
I think there is one to many rivets??? :-\

Outside of that looks great.

Jerry


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: shropshire lad on February 24, 2014, 05:08:12 PM
I think there is one to many rivets??? :-\

Jerry

 Yes , Jerry , but which one ?


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: finescalerr on February 25, 2014, 03:40:09 AM
Good Lord, he's back. Glad to see you again, Nick. Now go stand in the corner. -- ssuR


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: Hauk on February 25, 2014, 05:11:14 AM
Looking good!
Cant wait to see it in paint.
Looks like it has chicken pox now!
Marty

Ha, ha, my thought exactly! I have an image taken in Illinois in 1968 showing  yours truly fully riveted by chicken pox... But as Russ is still recovering after having his retinas burned by my thumb images, I will keep it to myself. But I digress.

Excellent, inspiring modelling!



Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: shropshire lad on February 25, 2014, 02:17:17 PM
Good Lord, he's back. Glad to see you again, Nick. Now go stand in the corner. -- ssuR


 Well, I was going to tell you all about what I've been up to , but I don't think I'll bother now .


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: TRAINS1941 on February 25, 2014, 06:08:29 PM
Good Lord, he's back. Glad to see you again, Nick. Now go stand in the corner. -- ssuR


 Well, I was going to tell you all about what I've been up to , but I don't think I'll bother now .

Most likely it would have been boring anyway!!! :D

Jerry


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: shropshire lad on February 25, 2014, 06:18:07 PM
Good Lord, he's back. Glad to see you again, Nick. Now go stand in the corner. -- ssuR


 Well, I was going to tell you all about what I've been up to , but I don't think I'll bother now .

Most likely it would have been boring anyway!!! :D

Jerry

Well, you'll never know now .


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: Gordon Ferguson on February 26, 2014, 03:09:18 AM
Oh don't sulk Nick , big tough brickies don't do that sort of thing!!

Go on show show us what you have been up to ........ You know you want really ;D


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: shropshire lad on February 26, 2014, 06:45:23 AM
Oh don't sulk Nick , big tough brickies don't do that sort of thing!!

Go on show show us what you have been up to ........ You know you want really ;D

 Us tough brickies have our sensitive side as well ,  don'tcha know !   I'll start a new thread later .

 Anyway , it looks as if it is only us Phoenix types doing any sort of modelling , so I don't want to let the team down . All the Yanks seem to have gone into hibernation .


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: finescalerr on February 26, 2014, 03:03:56 PM
Not exactly hibernation. My workshop is under six feet of plastic and drywall dust. I can't even get in to grab a tube of glue. (That's the sticky stuff, right? I can hardly remember.) -- Russ


Title: Re: Steam engine for a saw mill
Post by: Barney on February 26, 2014, 05:46:57 PM
I reckon they are all rivet counting in there sleep !
Barney