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General Category => General Forums => Topic started by: marc_reusser on July 31, 2013, 03:44:28 AM



Title: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: marc_reusser on July 31, 2013, 03:44:28 AM
A thread to post and compile all sorts of info, updates, comments, questions, and discussion regarding 3D printing, that don't fit into a specific subject.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: marc_reusser on July 31, 2013, 03:46:53 AM
Article in Sunday's Los Angeles times.

 http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-3d-printing-20130728,0,367796.story (http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-3d-printing-20130728,0,367796.story)

Found the info on who was buying who, and the patent expiraation interesting.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Chuck Doan on July 31, 2013, 07:52:21 PM
Good idea.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: mabloodhound on August 01, 2013, 08:08:41 AM
I thought we already had a thread for this?
http://www.finescalerr.com/smf/index.php?topic=2096.0 (http://www.finescalerr.com/smf/index.php?topic=2096.0)



Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: marc_reusser on August 13, 2013, 05:14:13 AM
3-D printing hits copyright laws......

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-08-13/3-d-printing-stirs-copyright-clash-on-homemade-iphone-gear-tech.html (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-08-13/3-d-printing-stirs-copyright-clash-on-homemade-iphone-gear-tech.html)


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Chuck Doan on August 13, 2013, 09:42:32 AM
This is just beginning. Good time to become a lawyer. Just wait till the self-driving cars start running amok!



Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on August 13, 2013, 01:31:53 PM
In the entertainment industry "anti-piracy" laws have run amok. If you have a tiny Internet radio station that 750 people listen to and play any commercial track you must pay a royalty, even if your station deliberately does not generate income, even if it is simply for the enjoyment of a few people, and even if the law makes you go broke. Similarly, if I were hired by the conductor to record an orchestra's rehearsal, I legally can make only one disk. Were I to make a copy for everyone in the orchestra so they could evaluate the rehearsal I am in violation of copyright law.

If this greedy kind of megalomania extends to 3D printing, and I have no doubt it will, it might end up being illegal for us to create and share parts to build up six 1:35 scale 1915 era gasoline pumps.

Our country has become a corruption of what the Constitution intended, like a painting of Dorian Gray. One day somebody will lift the curtain and reveal the hideous truth.

Russ


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Hauk on August 13, 2013, 03:37:12 PM
O yes, 3D printing will feed a new generation of copyright lawyers.
I think Russ will be proven right, copyright holders are just starting to realise the potential of copyright infringement by 3D printing.

I searched the Shapeways shop with the word "LEGO" and got over 800 hits. It is only a matter of time before LEGO unleashes a pack of hired guns upon SW.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: David King on August 13, 2013, 05:37:03 PM
I guess I'll be the contrarian here.  I do think it's very important that we respect copyright/trademark/patent laws, (I suspect the Lego issue is really a patent issue), regardless of how we feel about the corporate entities that may be over-zealous about pursuing infringers these laws are important and I shudder to think what the world would be like without them.    Also, the 3D printing angle on this is irrelevant, I'm not even sure why it even needs to brought up.   Copyright infringement is copyright infringment, it doesn't matter a lick wether that copy is made by a machine or by human hands.  That article is making much of nothing.

David


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on August 14, 2013, 01:39:46 AM
The fear, Dave, is not about reasonable law enforcement. Nobody would argue against that. It is about potentially abusive law enforcement, as in the examples I offered. -- Russ


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Hauk on August 14, 2013, 03:04:15 AM
(I suspect the Lego issue is really a patent issue)

Nope, the last LEGO patent expired in 1989. But maybe they are not so concerned about knockoffs on the actual blocks, since a the most important part of their business these days are Star Wars and Harry Potter kits. And may the force be with you if you try to mess with the Star Wars copyright holders!

For the record, as a former professional photographer I am not against copyright laws. But enforcing copyright should be balanced against fair use. It seems to me that the latter is more and more narrowly defined.

And speaking of copyright law:
http://agoraphilia.blogspot.no/2009/08/copyright-duration-and-mickey-mouse.html


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: David King on August 14, 2013, 08:21:47 AM
I agree, some companies can be just bullies about it, in particular when it comes to trademark, though they are legally obligated to to defend their trademark or lose it, but the Game of Thrones thing appears to be a copyright issue.  However, any time you put a price tag on it you're likely to attract the attention of the corporate lawyers.  The commerical allowances for "Fair use" are very narrow, and frankly I believe they should be.  An artist designed that throne, someone paid him to do it and now HBO owns the rights to anything created for that show, why shouldn't they take legal action against someone trying to profit off their creation without their permission?  I'm siding with HBO in this case, they are perfectly justified.  How about this, instead of copying the designs of others, why not exercise our imagination and come up with our own creations?

What I do take issue with is corporations that take their defense of trademark and copyright beyond the limits and use intimidation and deep pockets to scare the accused from fighting them, that is definately a problem.  Sometimes you can blame the government for allowing some things to be trademarked or even patented that shouldn't.  Good examples there is the Selden Patent that luckily Henry Ford had the pluck to fight and defeat and in modern times "Life is Good".  I still can't beleive a trademark was allowed to be registered for such a common phrase.

David


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Stoker on August 14, 2013, 08:00:24 PM

Our country has become a corruption of what the Constitution intended, like a painting of Dorian Gray. One day somebody will lift the curtain and reveal the hideous truth.

Russ

For me that day was a Tuesday in September 12 years ago, but the vast majority of people still insist on playing along and pretending they don't see anything wrong. The day when that is no longer possible may be coming soon.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on August 15, 2013, 01:42:05 PM
Here is a very interesting article (and it's short): http://www.tomsguide.com/us/3d-printing-new-materieals,news-17375.html (http://www.tomsguide.com/us/3d-printing-new-materieals,news-17375.html). It talks about 3-D prints using materials other than plastic, such as clay, wood, or paper. There's also a link to some 3-D printer recommendations.

My guess is that the use of non-plastic materials is best for 1:1 production (and probably not ready for prime time) but as technology develops, or if we use sandpaper, it might be possible to produce modeling parts in a few years.

Russ


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: marc_reusser on August 19, 2013, 03:30:59 PM
Article on 3D technology for sculptors

http://innovationews.com/innovation-news-releases/sculpture-depot-3d-workshops-demonstrate-convergence-of-art-and-technology/ (http://innovationews.com/innovation-news-releases/sculpture-depot-3d-workshops-demonstrate-convergence-of-art-and-technology/)


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: marc_reusser on August 19, 2013, 03:32:27 PM
A 3D printing service specifically for modelers.

https://click2detail.com/ (https://click2detail.com/)


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Mr Potato Head on August 19, 2013, 05:52:16 PM
I just came back from the IPMS nationals in Loveland Colorado, U.S.A
I went to the sold out standing room only clinic on 3 D modeling and printing, there was a $3200 3D printer there making models of farm animals and it was impressive. The clinician was a professional modeler from the movie industry and commercial industry. I was surprised to hear that most of their models were from a "frog" printer rather than a 3D printer, mainly because the size, a frog printer uses a tooling bit and takes away material from a big block of dense foam. The interest was really high and there were way more questions than there was time for, but the bottom line for me was that there's a copy right war going on with manufactures and the 3D material, and he boasted about the day he got his first C&D for a 3 D printed model (cease and desist )  order LOL
I'm excited!
MPH


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Mobilgas on August 19, 2013, 06:23:10 PM
I better find someone to do the Cad work for my Gas Pump in 1/2 inch scale before the S--T hits the fan  ::) I do not want to scratch build it.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Mr Potato Head on August 19, 2013, 09:03:53 PM
They talked about this in the clinic: They are called "Mesh" forums, people who love using the software will design for you as their hobby, some charge, others will give you the files, don't forget to ask for copyright privileges. I haven't had the time to look yet but I know there out there.
MPH


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Bexley on August 19, 2013, 11:26:07 PM
If I had the free time, I'd offer to do it. Maybe in a few months.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: marc_reusser on August 20, 2013, 12:17:35 AM
Unless you are planning on doing multi-compound surfaces (like animals or cars, etc), you really don't need to know CAD...as has been established by numerous people here, it can be done with a simple to use program like SketchUp.  As simple and basic as SU may look, the complexity and amount of detail that you can build, is only limited by your skill, reference information, and your willingness to take the time to construct/add it.



Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Hauk on August 20, 2013, 03:46:24 AM
Unless you are planning on doing multi-compound surfaces (like animals or cars, etc), you really don't need to know CAD...as has been established by numerous people here, it can be done with a simple to use program like SketchUp.  As simple and basic as SU may look, the complexity and amount of detail that you can build, is only limited by your skill, reference information, and your willingness to take the time to construct/add it.

In many ways, I find Sketchup as hard to use as CAD programs like VectorWorks and Solidworks.

The best thing about SU is that it is free, and the learning curve is not steep.
But as soon as you are past the newbie phase, its limitations for technical drawing becomes really annoying. And as modellers we are dealing mainly with technical drawings. 
Producing clean stl files is a pain in the proverbial, and I have had a lot of problems making files that printing services can accept.

I have recently started to use SolidWorks, and once you have learned the basics it just blows your mind. Unfortunately, the pricetag is mindblowing, too!







Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Hauk on August 20, 2013, 04:10:02 AM
I better find someone to do the Cad work for my Gas Pump in 1/2 inch scale before the S--T hits the fan  ::) I do not want to scratch build it.

When it comes to 3D printing, the genie is out of the bottle, and fortunately, it is not possible to put it back.

The current hysteria reminds me about the time the Internet went through its "Anarchist Cookbook" phase (around 2000).  A lot of people wanted to shut sown the Internet because the media had discovered that kids could download bomb recipies from the net. Well, it did not happen.

Another exampe: All the fuzz and legal action around internet services like Napster, LimeWire, PirateBay etc. has not limited the usefulness of the Internet. Quite the contrary, the legal music service Spotify is built on the ashes of Napster.

And remember "Home taping is killing music"? As much as the record industry wanted to outlaw tape recorders, nothing happened.

3D-printing is far bigger than Disney and Lucas Film combined. 3D-printing will not be outlawed because some guy prints a primitive handgun, or copyrights get violated. We are talking about a revolution in manufacturing that in time will have an impact comparable to the invention of the assembly line.

 I think it is a safe bet that 3D printing is here to stay...



Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: marc_reusser on August 20, 2013, 04:14:33 AM
Yes, the drawing method in SU is a bit clunky.  I do the majority of the 2D drawing...plan/section and elevation...in a 2D drafting program, then import them into SU, and assemble and extrude them.....I only do minor fill-in drawing or connecting drawing (stuff needed to assemble or refine the imported 2D images), so I can get a really high level of detail and accuracy. Have not encountered any STL creation issues.

I still tend to think for what most people need/want to do, it should really be sufficient.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Mobilgas on August 21, 2013, 08:58:44 PM
Bexley,   Thanks for the offer on doing the cad work ;D  Maybe later in the year ill get with you.    Hauk you make a good point ;)


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on August 22, 2013, 06:48:25 PM
I use MeshLab to convert between meshes

http://meshlab.sourceforge.net/


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: marc_reusser on August 22, 2013, 11:20:08 PM
Not suited for Bexley....but for the home/SU users.....I just use the STL Converter plug-in for SU.


Marc


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Bexley on August 23, 2013, 11:27:44 AM
Meshlab doesn't convert .OBJ to .STP format. The .STP format (and SolidWorks) use NURBS, which doesn't use polygons. It uses mathematical splines to calculate the surface shapes. Converting between the two is the problem. It's basically like a 3D version of raster images vs. vector graphics. Well, sort of. It's not an exact analogy, but it's close. Meshlab essentially converts one format of polygonal mesh into another, which is a fairly straightforward process.

I have found a Modo plugin that will make the transition, but what it essentially does is covert each polygon to a NURBS surface, then knits them together to form a solid. Which is a problem if your model has millions of polygons, as it can take a day or so just to make the conversion. Which makes editing and making changes tedious and slow.

Anyway. That's enough thread hijacking for now.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on August 23, 2013, 12:09:36 PM
Not really a "hijack". More of a "sidebar". You have injected specific information about hands-on experience with 3-D CAD. While, for me at the moment, it's a little like reading a medical journal I think it will make sense when I finally immerse myself in this stuff. Bottom line: I'm glad you posted the comments. -- Russ


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Bexley on August 23, 2013, 02:00:43 PM
Well, to put it more simply, there are 3D formats that are based polygons (meshes), and 3D formats based on mathematical lines and curves (NURBS). The two formats are not easily converted from one to the other. (Actually, it's not too tough to go from NURBS formats to polygonal mesh formats. It's going from polygonal to NURBS that's a problem.)

Polygonal meshes are primarily used for things like animation, 3D sculpting, and other types of "freeform" modeling which requires surfaces to be bent, shaped, and stretched on the fly. STL and OBJ are the most common mesh formats. 3D printers primarily use the STL format, which is a mesh format.

NURBS formats are usually used in CAD-style programs, as they lend themselves to precision dimensioning. They are also the more "standard" formats used in computer aided machining. Solidworks files and Step (STP) files are the most common NURBS type formats.

Any machine shop with CAD/CAM capabilities can likely take a NURBS format and machine your model. Not all can do this from a mesh format.

Any 3D printhouse will be able to print your meshes by converting to STL. I'm not sure offhand if there are printers/software which print directly from NURBS formats, but it's so easy to convert them to STL, that most places won't object to you sending them something in that format.



Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Gordon Ferguson on August 24, 2013, 01:30:24 AM
Well, to put it more simply

Thank God you did not over complicate it  :D ;D


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on August 24, 2013, 02:18:31 AM
Actually, he didn't overcomplicate it but I know you were joking. I think, if I were to try to explain some aspects of jazz or harmony, my "simple" description might still baffle some people. As Einstein said, "Things should be as simple as possible, but no simpler." -- Russ


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Frederic Testard on August 24, 2013, 02:57:35 AM
Bexley, as I understand it, if you are able to describe a shape in terms of triangles and write it with the correct syntax, you'll have a STL file. Is it automatically printable (assuming there's no 'open' place where the triangles wouldn't exactly meet)?


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Hauk on August 24, 2013, 04:28:21 AM
Bexley, as I understand it, if you are able to describe a shape in terms of triangles and write it with the correct syntax, you'll have a STL file. Is it automatically printable (assuming there's no 'open' place where the triangles wouldn't exactly meet)?

No, a .stl file is not automatically printable. Printers will have limits to what they can print, often related to things like minimum wall thickness, slot width, minimum feature size, overhangs, etc.

The need for support structures during printing can limit what can be printed. Caveties must be possble to drain for uncured resin etc.

But these things are printer specific, and one should check the requirements of the printer the part is to be made on.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Bexley on August 24, 2013, 12:24:53 PM
Bexley, as I understand it, if you are able to describe a shape in terms of triangles and write it with the correct syntax, you'll have a STL file. Is it automatically printable (assuming there's no 'open' place where the triangles wouldn't exactly meet)?

An STL is not automatically printable. However, the only real requirements to be printable is that it be manifold and have consistent normals.

Manifold (in 3D geometry, not mechanics or mathematics) means it is essentially a "watertight" shape, which is what you described- no open spaces, no gaps between polygons.

Consistent normals rarely comes up as an issue, but what it means is that all the faces "point" the same way, and they point outwards. Each polygon has two "sides" mathematically, and one of those sides is designated "normal." In a solid watertight shape, all the outside faces also have to be normal. It's rarely an issue, though, because most software is good at generating and retaining correctly facing normals. But it can happen that something might invert some of them, and this would cause errors. Usually merging multiple meshes into one is the cause.

Of course, "printable" doesn't necessarily imply "successfully printed." As Hauk said, if parts are too thin, or unsupported, the print can still fail. But the printing software won't reject the file.

As far as being complicated, it really isn't, there's just a lot of terminology that needs to be defined. I know the first time I heard NURBS (which, we all know, stands for Non Uniform Rational B-Spline, right? Right?) my eyes glazed over and I got confused and fell down. But once I got moved over to 3D modelling, and this stuff became relevant and interesting, I picked it up pretty quickly. Interest level has a lot to do with it. I imagine Russ would never be able to teach me even basic concepts about music, as it doesn't much interest me. There's nothing wrong with being uninterested in a subject. But it does bug me when people say something is beyond them when it likely isn't, they just  have no interest or reason to be interested in learning it. Which is a perfectly valid stance to take- I'm not trying to be insulting about it.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Chuck Doan on September 03, 2013, 10:43:36 PM
If the requirement is to be consistently normal, then I am in big trouble.

On another note, I just read that UPS stores are going to offer 3D printing services. Walmart can't be far behind! Or Starbucks. 3D print a mug with the coffee inside.

And then there's this: http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2013/08/makerbot-digitize/

Go ahead put the kitty on the turntable. You know you want to.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Hauk on September 04, 2013, 03:53:05 AM

And then there's this: http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2013/08/makerbot-digitize/

Go ahead put the kitty on the turntable. You know you want to.

Well, to get a good scan I think Kitty needs a night in the deep freezer, so I think I will pass.

On a more seriouse note, a digitizer offers interesting possibilities. But what I would really love is an affordable digitizer that can handle full-size parts. As I work in 0-scale, it only needs 1/45 the resolution of the best printers.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: David King on September 12, 2013, 05:18:40 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oie1ZXWceqM

If this technology produces models compatible with 3D printing it takes away much of the 3D modeling learning curve out as an obstacle to adoption.  What implication does this have for model building?

David


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: mad gerald on September 19, 2013, 02:26:02 AM
G'day all,

sneakers (um well, at least trade samples) generated by a 3D-printer (only in german - sorry for inconvenience) ...

http://www.abendblatt.de/hamburg/article120135002/3-D-Technik-Turnschuhe-aus-dem-Drucker.html (http://www.abendblatt.de/hamburg/article120135002/3-D-Technik-Turnschuhe-aus-dem-Drucker.html)
http://img.abendblatt.de/img/hamburg/crop120137389/3810696569-ci3x2l-h307/3D-Drucker.jpg (http://img.abendblatt.de/img/hamburg/crop120137389/3810696569-ci3x2l-h307/3D-Drucker.jpg)

... it is also reported in that article, that a modell of a complete house has been printed (costs approx. EUR 300-400) with that printer as well as some cochlea-implants.

Printing a sample of a ball bearing was done - costs: EUR 8  ...

The price for that kind of 3D-printer may be still exorbitant, but it seems the printing costs tend to reach a reasonable level ...

Cheers

EDIT: Sorry, article has now limited access only - in case of interest a similar article is still readable here: http://www.welt.de/print/die_welt/hamburg/article120134560/Turnschuhe-aus-dem-Drucker-als-besonderer-Clou.html (http://www.welt.de/print/die_welt/hamburg/article120134560/Turnschuhe-aus-dem-Drucker-als-besonderer-Clou.html)


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: marc_reusser on September 19, 2013, 03:44:46 AM
I have a friend who is also an architect. He was doing some work for a client that has access to a hi res 3D printer. They printed the entire 3000 sf house remodel on the printer....including interior walls and doors. It was done in interlocking sections and then glued together to become the whole model. I think they did it in 3/16" or 1/4" scale.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on September 19, 2013, 01:50:13 PM
Didn't you once post a link to somebody who used a 3-D printer for constructing a 1:1 cement fireplace and other parts of a residence? We all must learn SketchUp! -- Russ


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: marc_reusser on September 19, 2013, 03:54:43 PM
That was me, with a pair of fireplaces for one of our clients. They were drawn very detailed in a 2D CAD program then imported into SU, where the 2D line drawings were extruded into 3D solids; this file was then sent to the stone yard/fabricator ...they then converted the file to whatever their machine neede......and they were cut (rapid prototyped/cnc milled), out of large blocks of limestone, in a machine the sie of a good sied bedroom. Then before shipping, workers manually went in and "hand tooled" them, to add saw cord marks, and other tooling marks, as well as some chipped and damaged areas. They were also left sitting out in the rain and weather to stain and patina them a bit.

........basically sim to the way Chuck made his brick foundation walls.  ;D


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on September 26, 2013, 07:02:27 PM
When FUD arrives from Shapeways it has a coating of wax that needs to be removed. Warm water works .. as does alcohol. Just a note: Don't drop your FUD into the alcohol .. and forget about it for a couple of hours .. brushing and rinsing causes no problems.

(http://images9.fotki.com/v114/photos/2/1709102/12360413/photo1-vi.jpg)


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: lenelg on September 27, 2013, 11:43:32 AM
A chain of stores catering to electronics hobbyists here in Sweden has a 3D printer in their fall catalog, at under USD 1000. Probably not close to the precision we want, but it is an interesting sign of things to come, the "Apple I" of 3D printers..


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on September 27, 2013, 01:34:46 PM
Similarly a friend living near Tacoma told me yesterday a hobby/craft shop there offers the services of both a low res and a hi res 3-D printer. -- Russ


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Chuck Doan on November 25, 2013, 04:37:26 PM
I came across this thread:

http://www.modelcarsmag.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=69078&page=1

Some interesting uses of scanning included.



Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: marc_reusser on November 29, 2013, 05:31:32 AM
I thought this was a lovely piece of 3D printing by Shapeways for a 1/35 project by Marcel du Long (computer model also by MdL):

(http://www.marceldulong.com/projects/c11_26.jpg)

(http://www.marceldulong.com/projects/c11_23.jpg)


Some more pics at the bottom of this page on his blog:
http://www.marceldulong.com/c11.html (http://www.marceldulong.com/c11.html)


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on November 29, 2013, 11:19:00 AM
Outstanding. (Except for what might be a broken or incomplete rib at the upper left of the printed model. Deliberate?)

Why didn't they print a turkey for Thanksgiving?

Why do I think of these idiotic things?

Russ


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: marc_reusser on December 03, 2013, 12:20:29 AM
Bexley, Very interesting. Much like when running renders, or exporting 2D images from some 3D programs/models.


Title: Some Prints
Post by: eTraxx on December 13, 2013, 05:25:30 PM
I've been playing around a bit with a deck girder bridge. One of the bits I had printed was a splice-plate and a stiffener. In the pic the rivet head that is 1.4 in. dia. run down the stiffener while the .75 in. dia. rivets are on the splice plate. This is about as extreme a close-up as I have been able to get so far. This was printed in FUD (Frosted Ultra Detail) from Shapeways. The layering from the build is pretty evident .. not THAT bad but evident. To put in perspective .. this is O scale so the 1.4 in. dia. heads are actually about 0.029 in. dia. The .75 in. dia. rivets are really 0.015 in. dia.

Note: Why two different sizes? Well ... rivets on a bridge ran between 3/4 and 7/8 in. That is the rivet SHANK dia not the dia of the head. Well duh! Turns out that a rivet head of this type is 1.5 to 1.6 x the shank dia .. so that the 1.4 in. dia is perfect for a 7/8 in. rivet. I ummm .. got mixed up between inches and mm when putting the rivets on the stiffeners ..  and hit the head dia by accident I confess.

(http://images41.fotki.com/v1577/photos/2/1709102/12530785/photo-vi.jpg)


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on December 13, 2013, 05:27:27 PM
That last photo is a bit unfair to Shapeways .. drawing back just a bit with the camera .. and IMO .. still way closer then you would ever be seeing the thing with the naked eye and it looks much better. That jogged angle by the way is about 0.012" thick at the flange.

(http://etraxx.com/lcnrr/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/StiffCUwPenny.jpg)


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on December 13, 2013, 05:28:45 PM
There are finer prints available .. Fineline Prototyping for example has a MicroFine Green Resin that is mind blowing .. on their Knowledge-Base page (http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/Knowledge-Base%20page) they show a chess-board measuring 1cm square .. with an ant. This is their MicroGreen. The only problem is the cost WAY exceeds what a hobbyist can afford - but an example of what we may see available to us in the future at a reasonable cost. Who know .. I can dream can't I? :)

(http://www.finelineprototyping.com/perch/resources/ant1.jpg)


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on December 13, 2013, 05:29:47 PM
Just for fun I uploaded the splice-plate mesh to both Shapeways and Fineline Prototyping. This is the two plates connected by short sprues.

Shapeways - you have a $5 handling fee per mesh and a flat-rate $6.50 shipping. It would be silly to place an order just for the two plates .. if I do drop an order I will put this in with other meshes but for showing the differences in price this matters little.

Shapeways .. my cost would be ..
1 for $6. This includes the $5 handling fee so the cost for the FUD is $1. You can figure that..
10 for $15 .. and ..
100 for $105 .. and of course the $6.60 shipping. If you were quite mad .. and since each deck girder bridge would require four and therefore 2 prints per bridge then 100 would give 50 bridges so .. suppose 50 mad modelers .. the cost would be $111.50/50 or $2.23 per 4ea to each of the mad modelers + shipping. Not THAT bad .

Now .. to print these in the MicroFine Green at FineLine Prototyping ..

1 for $315
10 for $573
100 for $3,153

Even with 50 quite mad modelers .. that would be $63 each!!

So for now .. the MicroFine I leave to someone using it for a master .. and I will stick with the FUD which doesn't seem quite so expensive now!


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Bexley on February 26, 2014, 04:53:14 PM
The printer arrived last week and the tech will be here tomorrow and Friday to help set it up, show us how to run it, and how the software works. It looks like we'll be printing some calibration models (instead of actual work models, which I can't show) first, so I may actually have something to show here.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Chuck Doan on February 26, 2014, 09:43:24 PM
Christmas!


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: marc_reusser on February 26, 2014, 11:52:20 PM
Congrats! Look forward to the pics and your thoughts.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on February 27, 2014, 02:41:18 AM
Please report regularly on your findings and opinions. -- Russ


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Bexley on February 27, 2014, 09:08:44 AM
Will do. The current plan is that I will be the primary operator. However, my experience will only be minimally applicable to modeling at large, as most of us use Shapeways, which is a different style of printer than what we purchased. But I'm sure there will be some useful stuff.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Bexley on February 27, 2014, 01:13:53 PM
It's lunch time, so here's the interesting bits I've learned today:

1. The printer uses an RFID material card system. Basically, when resin is shipped to you, it comes with an RFID card that must be inserted into the machine in order to run it. Of course, you could use any resin from any company and just insert a card in to make it run, but the card contains all the resin parameter data, and so if the resin you're using has different cure times, expansion rates, flow rates, etc. from the card's data set, you will get typically get print failures.

2. The .STL editing suite it comes with is pretty nice. Certainly, it blows Netfabb out of the water. And we didn't even get the full version, just a limited version to setup prints.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Chuck Doan on February 27, 2014, 10:26:54 PM
I think resin cost is the elephant in the room when "low cost" 3D systems are mentioned.  I have heard that the costs are kept artificially high.



Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Bexley on February 28, 2014, 12:35:36 AM
I don't think they're that bad. I think we pay around $50 a liter for the stuff we use in the B9.

Another interesting note is that the tech who came out was actually one of the engineers who designs and builds the things. He was aware of the B9, but once he saw the quality it produced (albeit only occasionally; consistency is not the B9's strong suit) he was intrigued enough to order one for their R&D shop to take apart and play with. One of the big differences between the two machines is robustness. They're essentially the same technology, but the "pro" machine is just beefier and more stable, which will be critical in maintaining accuracy.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Bexley on March 03, 2014, 12:01:48 PM
Unfortunately, the machine has had some issues. Mostly, a broken cable on the counterweight for the hood. The first (calibration) print went correctly. I'd show it here, but it's just a hollow 1cm x 1cm x 1cm cube, so it doesn't really give you a sense of anything. (Interestingly, it printed at exactly 1x1x1, so no additional shrinkage calibration was necessary.)

The second print, which was a figure from one of our freelance sculptors, failed. It went fine for a half an inch or so, then something caused a layer to not attach, and so all subsequent layers failed as well. The second attempt at that print ended with the same result. It is most likely a file issue, so we are now printing some files sent to us by the technician, to verify that the machine works. If that does print, I should have something pretty nifty to show off here, since it's not a proprietary work-related print.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Bexley on March 06, 2014, 08:30:31 PM
Not the greatest photo, but here was our first successful print, at a z resolution of 50 microns:


(http://www.counterclockwiseminis.com/images/2014/EnvisionTEC_testprints.jpg)


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Bexley on March 06, 2014, 08:30:53 PM
(We didn't print the penny.)


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Chuck Doan on March 06, 2014, 09:15:56 PM
How long does something like that take to print?


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Bexley on March 06, 2014, 10:35:55 PM
That was around five and a half hours. This machine goes by vertical height, and the raptor head was setup with the snout pointing up so that the teeth could print without supports. I set up a build tray of 32mm figures (~1:48) before I left today, and that will take about three and a half hours. The figures were cut up and mostly lying on their sides rather than standing straight up.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Bexley on March 06, 2014, 10:50:17 PM
Also: Here's what a failed print looks like!


(http://www.counterclockwiseminis.com/images/2014/failed_print_1.jpg)

(http://www.counterclockwiseminis.com/images/2014/failed_print_2.jpg)


Still not sure what happened. We sent the job file to the tech, and he was able to print it without any problem, but we had two failures. (These are both photos of the second failure.) For whatever reason, as near as we can tell, the machine had a no-data exposure frame, which essentially caused a blank layer, and so all the subsequent layers had nothing to attach to.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Ray Dunakin on March 07, 2014, 12:57:39 AM
That nested-honeycomb-ball is pretty cool.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Chuck Doan on March 07, 2014, 09:41:16 AM
Reminds me of early transporter failures. 


Title: !Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Juke Joint on March 07, 2014, 10:49:36 AM
Very nice!

Philip


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Chuck Doan on March 08, 2014, 12:49:24 AM
           (http://images15.fotki.com/v1624/photos/9/777399/11270393/PARTS108-vi.jpg)

Shapeways has started using an automatic thin edge detecting feature. 4 or 5 months ago, I sent this cluster of pipe fittings and faucet parts in and had it printed no problem. Recently I sent in a second order and the thin edge feature disallowed the faucet handles. Didn't matter that they printed fine before, they would not allow the print unless I modified them.

Just a heads up. 


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on March 08, 2014, 01:31:04 PM
Thank you for the info, Chuck. -- Russ


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Hauk on March 08, 2014, 06:27:24 PM
Shapeways has started using an automatic thin edge detecting feature. 4 or 5 months ago, I sent this cluster of pipe fittings and faucet parts in and had it printed no problem. Recently I sent in a second order and the thin edge feature disallowed the faucet handles. Didn't matter that they printed fine before, they would not allow the print unless I modified them.

Shapeways has a new button, "Print Anyway", that might be useful in instances like this.

https://www.shapeways.com/support/print-it-anyway (https://www.shapeways.com/support/print-it-anyway)


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Chuck Doan on March 08, 2014, 08:09:23 PM
That's interesting...I communicated with someone and told them I would be fine if it didn't print properly. But he said it would cause the print to fail and they wouldn't accept it. Hmmm.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: mabloodhound on March 09, 2014, 08:24:34 AM
I just read that "Print It anyway" policy and unless it is a "gun" or a prohibited item, they say it will be printed...just no returns allowed.
Tr it out Chuck and let us know what happens.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: mspaw on March 09, 2014, 03:48:24 PM
ill be interested in how that works out. Im sure they just want less edge cases they have to work through.

-Michael


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Hauk on March 10, 2014, 12:04:33 AM
ill be interested in how that works out. Im sure they just want less edge cases they have to work through.

-Michael

What I heard is that due to a big increase in business, SW has hired a lot of rather inexperienced people. These people do not have the experience and confidence to make judgements on an individual basis, they just stick to the rules.

But I think that SW should keep track of what models that have printed OK before, that should save them some work.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on March 10, 2014, 07:13:10 AM
From Shapeways - Print it Anyway

https://www.shapeways.com/support/print-it-anyway


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: chester on May 02, 2014, 10:13:45 AM
An interesting (and affordable) addition to the concept of 3D printing.
http://www.thisiscolossal.com/2014/04/lix-the-worlds-smallest-3d-printing-pen-lets-you-draw-in-the-air/


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on May 02, 2014, 12:57:33 PM
If I were an artist, I would want one of those for Christmas. I'm not certain what application it would have in fine modeling but it is COOL! Thanks for the link. -- Russ


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: TRAINS1941 on May 02, 2014, 05:40:11 PM
If I were an artist, I would want one of those for Christmas. I'm not certain what application it would have in fine modeling but it is COOL! Thanks for the link. -- Russ

Image how easy it would be to publish a book!!!! :)

Jerry


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on July 23, 2014, 10:54:05 AM
With the help of a plugin - Curviloft .. I brewed up some Cowl Ventilators for a ship I am building in O scale for my layout. The Boiler Room Hatch ventilators are slightly larger then the ones used on the Engine Room Hatch. I also made some N scale versions. Curious to see how they print in the smaller scale. In any case .. the plugin Curviloft (http://sketchucation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=28586) .. "lofts along a path" .. pretty handy tool.

(http://etraxx.com/lcnrr/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/CVGroup_1.jpg)


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on July 23, 2014, 02:30:45 PM
Please photograph and post the printed parts. -- Russ


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: lab-dad on July 24, 2014, 06:08:59 AM
Looks like stacks for a flathead with 8 carbs!
Very cool!
-Mj


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: mabloodhound on July 24, 2014, 08:51:02 AM
Really good Ed.
 8)


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: marc_reusser on July 24, 2014, 06:18:02 PM
Great find Ed. Thanks for the share. This will come in very handy...I have struggled with stuff like this using work around and radial extrusions...so this looks like it wil be a great help and time saver.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on July 24, 2014, 07:20:52 PM
Yep. Figured it was worth sharing. If you look at this link to my blog .. scroll down to where it says "Outer Skin" .. and you can see it just consists of selecting each of the circles, the path and clicking the tool. That easy.

http://etraxx.com/sbs/sketchup/cowl-ventilator/cowl-ventilator-iv/


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on July 27, 2014, 10:48:03 AM
I placed the order with Shapeways for the Cowl Ventilators on the 23rd .. and just got an email this morning that they are in-route! Wowzier .. 5 days from placing the order to shipping. I am impressed Shapeways!!


Title: Cowl Ventilators
Post by: eTraxx on July 31, 2014, 11:43:04 AM
Here’s how it comes from Shapeways. The smallest ventilators are in a separate baggie. The larger bag was inside a box packed with styrofoam nuggets.
The photos below are how they came from the company. I haven’t cleaned them yet but they are pretty clean of the wax support material as they are. I will still clean them though using Bestine.
(http://etraxx.com/lcnrr/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/print_1.jpg)

This is the largest Cowl Ventilator. The cowl is 0.876 O.D. and the trunk is 0.438 O.D. with a 0.340 O.D. ‘stud’. The 0.438 and 0.340 dimensions are those of Evergreen #234 tubing. This will allow making the trunk as long as needed.
(http://etraxx.com/lcnrr/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/print_largeCV.jpg)

This is the medium sized cowl ventilator. The cowl is 0.688 O.D. and the trunk is 0.344 O.D. with a 0.288 O.D. stud. The 0.344 O.D and 0.288 O.D. dimensions match Evergreen #231 tubing so the trunk can be made as long as needed.
(http://etraxx.com/lcnrr/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/print_mediumCV.jpg)

This is the smallest cowl ventilator (N scale). The cowl is 0.250 O.D. and the trunk is 0.125 O.D. with a 0.069 O.D. stud. The 0.125 O.D. and 0.069 O.D. dimensions match Evergreen #224 tubing so the trunk can be made as long as needed.
(Excuse the rough looking fingers. I was out earlier putting brake drums and shoes on my truck)
(http://etraxx.com/lcnrr/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/print_smallCV_wfingers.jpg)

Finally, a photo with all three grouped together with a nickel. I’ll take some more photos after I have cleaned and primered them but I wanted to get these photos out now.
(http://etraxx.com/lcnrr/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/print_all_wnickle.jpg)


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on July 31, 2014, 12:25:25 PM
The parts seem to be free of artifacts. The surfaces may be a little grainy (it's hard to tell) but I'm not seeing rings or steps or other resolution related problems. -- Russ


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: mabloodhound on August 01, 2014, 06:42:47 AM
Those came out great Ed.   Maybe Shapeways has improved their handling and printing process.   Sure were speedy this time around.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on August 01, 2014, 07:31:34 AM
Yep, my thoughts too. I believe I read that they changed the support material (wax) to lessen the layering


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Hauk on August 01, 2014, 09:44:10 AM
But as the saying goes; The proof of the pudding is in the primer.

I find it hard to judge Shapeways parts before they are primed. So I am looking forward to see the parts painted!


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on August 03, 2014, 06:04:03 PM
The ventilators were sanded lightly with 600 grit sandpaper, primed, sanded again and primed. The hardest thing is that they are so darn small this is a relatively delicate operation. I wonder if a Q-Tip with rubbing compound might work. Still .. think they came out pretty well. That small one is stuck on a toothpick the other two on Q-Tips.

(http://etraxx.com/lcnrr/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/primer_1.jpg)


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Hauk on August 03, 2014, 11:34:07 PM
The ventilators were sanded lightly with 600 grit sandpaper, primed, sanded again and primed.

Looking damn close to perfect!


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on August 04, 2014, 02:12:25 AM
I would never guess the parts were 3-D printed or less than perfect from studying those photos. -- Russ


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on August 04, 2014, 05:06:47 AM
The primer helped quite a bit. The hardest thing for me is that they are so small and so hard to sand. David Emery pointed me to these Plastic Sanding Needles (http://www.alphaabrasives.com/alpha/plastic-sanding-needles.php). Look to be useful even if not perfect for this. I'm going to drop by today and  pick up some cosmetic sponges .. want to try seeing if rubbing or polishing compound and a Q-Tip will smooth them. Notice that the walls of the "sheet metal" are quite thick .. they are .020 in. .. but I think a little sanding along the edge will hide that thickness


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Ray Dunakin on August 04, 2014, 02:13:09 PM
Thanks for that link. I definitely can use those plastic sanding needles!



Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on August 04, 2014, 06:25:54 PM
I picked up some buffing compound at Lowes .. some Porter Cable #3 'Cleaning Compound' and #4 'Polishing Compound'.  These are sticks that you on a buffing wheel but they worked 'good nuff' on a Q-Tip.

I must apologize for the fingers .. I was putting brake pads on my truck before the pic :)

(http://etraxx.com/lcnrr/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/smallprimed.jpg)


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on August 05, 2014, 02:45:06 AM
Although you might benefit from a manicure your ventilators wouldn't. I still contend they look quite good. -- Russ


Title: Formlabs Form1+ Sample
Post by: eTraxx on August 21, 2014, 04:10:34 PM
Formlabs - Formlabs Form 1+ 3D Printer (http://formlabs.com/)

  • Form1+ : $3299
  • 1 liter Resin  :  $149 – Clear, White, Gray and Black.
  • Material properties  : ABS-like Acrylate Photopolymer Resin
  • Build Volume : 125 x 125 x165 mm / 4.9 x 4.9 x 6.5 in.
  • Layer thickness : 25, 50, or 100 microns / .025, .050, or .1 mm
  • Min feature Size  : 300 microns / .3 mm

I spoke to Jon Bryant at Formlabs. He said that any questions to contact him at jon@formlabs.com or phone: 617.932.5227 ext766

I was really impressed with the sample they sent. This was printed at the 100 micron layer thickness – taking a couple of hours.  Printing at 25 microns would take approximately four times as long.

This in a way acts as a lead-in to Shapeways FUD. Shapeways charges $3.49 cm3 for FUD (Frosted Ultra Detail). The 1 liter of resin from Formlabs costs $149 .. which works out to $0.15 cm3. While there may be a difference in resin cost between what Shapeways and Formalabs use I suspect that the major cost difference is the print time is figured into the Shapeways charge.
Formlabs says that 77 of the chess pieces could be printed from one bottle of resin. That works out to 1000 cm3/77 or each chess piece having a volume of 13 cm3. At $.015 per cm3 for the resin then each chess piece would cost you $2. That same volume at Shapeways would be 13 x $3.49 or $45.37 .. not counting the $5 handling charge and approximate $5 shipping.

I haven’t sawn, beaten, stomped or otherwise tried to kill the chess piece. Just holding it in my hands it appears to be solid, strong and durable. It (the resin) is described as “like ABS”. Jon mentioned that if you go to the community forum there is the usual ‘formeze discussions’ .. that some have electroplated the plastic (yes .. ABS can be electroplated) to increase the strength of parts.

Is it worth $3299 to you? Donno. Would it be useful in Model Railroading / Military Modeling in creating your own parts? Sure.

I’m impressed with the quality of the sample they sent me. This machine is .. IMO .. where 3D printers take off from ‘kit built’ to professional printers.

The sample came to me nicely packaged as you see here. It is a rook that would I think make any chess player happy to have (well .. unless they were of the *cough* .. elite such as from Hollywood or Washington D.C.
(http://etraxx.com/lcnrr/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Image3.jpg)

Looks pretty darn good. There is some layering evident next to my thumb and just above where the base necks down to the spiral trunk. Remember this was printed at the 100 micron layer. Obviously, printing at 50 microns would reduce that layering by half and printing at 25 microns by a quarter .. of course the printing time would increase proportionally.
(http://etraxx.com/lcnrr/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Image6.jpg)

A view from the top and we can see the helical stairs spiraling down into the body of the tower and the lettering nicely done on top.
(http://etraxx.com/lcnrr/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Image7.jpg)

This isn't a review of the printer - I don't have one. Just an overview and a look at a sample printed piece.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: marc_reusser on August 22, 2014, 01:24:43 AM
Cool. Thanks for the review/report.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Wesleybeks on August 22, 2014, 08:18:39 AM
Found an article about these guys today. I love the concept. Will be interesting to see if the idea works though.

http://www.solidsmack.com/fabrication/igo3d-is-the-first-and-fanciest-3d-print-store-in-germany/

Their website

https://www.igo3d.com/


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Bexley on August 22, 2014, 05:29:21 PM
Huh. It makes sense now that I think about it, but the idea of Kinko's for 3D prints had never occurred to me.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Chuck Doan on August 22, 2014, 08:02:16 PM
Thanks for the report Ed. I wonder how much of a learning curve there is with these printers. I know there a group on Flickr dedicated to 3D print failures...


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Guy Milh(imeter) on August 25, 2014, 03:21:39 AM
3D printing seems to be more and more integrated.

I saw an advertisement in the sundaypaper for an evening course where you can learn the skils of 3D printing. Apparently they will use a bioprinter with the use of starch


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Hauk on August 26, 2014, 11:13:30 AM
I am testing out different printers for my mineral wagon in 0-scale.
Just got a print from Prescision Wax in the UK, it is printed on a Solidscape printer:

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/wax_print.png)

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/wax_print_01.png)

The Wrench size of the hex nuts are 0,7mm. (0,0275")
Width of the parts are 1,35mm (0,053")

That hex nut detail is quite good in my opinion!

Not enitrely sure about layer thickness, but I would guess 25 microns, even if the printer is capable of 12,7 microns.

This is a wax print, so it can either be used to make a second generation master for a rubber mould (the non-RTV kind used by several casters) or directly to a RTV rubber mould for making waxes for casting.


This part cost me £ 30.00 (USD 50,-) including postage & handling. Took around a week from delivering the stl to receiving the unharmed wax by Royal Mail. Excellent service. FineLine quoted USD 168,- for the same part...

(please do not mind the layout of the parts, the design has since been revised several times!)


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on August 26, 2014, 01:07:08 PM
I've seen cast metal parts much worse than that and rarely have I seen metal parts better than that. Looks as though you hit the bullseye. -- Russ


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Chuck Doan on August 26, 2014, 07:20:31 PM
That looks quite good!


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Hauk on August 28, 2014, 01:57:36 PM
I am in a bit of research mode, so I ordered the same print in wax from Shapeways. This is the same printer they use for their metal parts, so I was interested in seeing the part before casting.

It is printed with 16 micron layers, so in that department it is even better than the Solidscape print from Prescision Wax.

But as you can see, build layer thickness is not everything:

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/Shapeways_01_w.jpg)

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/Shapeways_02_w.jpg)

Most annoying is the surface pattern, that is something that also bothered me with the brass part I got from Shapeways.
The hex nut detail is nowhere as sharp as the Solidscape print.

The wax is also softer and more sticky, I would not consider using this part for a RTV mould.

I feel that Solidscape waxes could be used for RTV moulds, but waxes are probably most useful when you need a one-off metal part or a metal master. 

It was in fact a disappointment that the surface detail was that rough on a 16 micron layer printer, and that edge sharpness was not better.

Here is another image of the Prescision Wax part. It is claear from the images that this part was printed with 25 micron layers. But the Solidscape printer can print with 12,7micron layers so the part could have been even better!

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/prescision_wax_02_w.jpg)

I feel we have almost arrived...









Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Chuck Doan on September 01, 2014, 09:06:25 PM
Quite a difference!

On another note, I ordered a part from Shapeways today and noticed an orientation option! But alas, it is only for the image for your shop, not a print orientation. :'(



Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on September 03, 2014, 05:50:59 AM
Toys getting .. interesting

http://3dprintingindustry.com/2014/09/03/fabtotum-hybrid-3d-printing-scanning-milling-machine-open-pre-orders/


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Mr Potato Head on September 03, 2014, 07:42:23 AM
when we started this conversation a few years back, I thought,.......only $30,000 wow that's about the price of a car, that's affordable,......
when do you get in? Everyone wanted a I phone, now look where that's at
one could assume that my flying car is right around the corner for $29,500 ?
MPH


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on September 03, 2014, 10:43:30 AM
? The 'Pre-Order' price for that machine is  $1,099 .. seems a lot less then a car to me


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on September 03, 2014, 01:31:43 PM
What level of resolution do we need for fine modeling? I would say a printer must be capable of turning out HO scale parts of the same quality as commercially injected plastic. And what would the price be for that? -- Russ


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Mr Potato Head on September 03, 2014, 02:01:48 PM
Ed
that's what I'm trying to convey
in a short time the price has gone from 30K to 1K
Future Shock!
Any day now I want my flying car!
Think how much the government will save on TSA
MPH


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on September 03, 2014, 02:30:11 PM
Making a WAG .. I would say that level of detail printing in 5 years. I suspect the price will be high though. I figure .. 10 years before that level of printing at a reasonable price .. I could be wrong and hope I am.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Hauk on September 04, 2014, 03:39:24 AM
What level of resolution do we need for fine modeling? I would say a printer must be capable of turning out HO scale parts of the same quality as commercially injected plastic. And what would the price be for that? -- Russ

I think that the the ultimate challenge is to print something with the same level of detail, surface smoothness and general fantasticness as the most intricate injection moulded parts by GrandtLine.

It suddenly strikes me that we might never get there :-\


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Lawton Maner on September 04, 2014, 11:48:48 AM
I feel that the limiting factor as to surface finish will eventually be the size of the particle laid down by the machine.  But, since each piece of the finished product is made by a process which is like stacking tiny bricks one upon another the surface finish will always have a "grain" which is noticeable under magnification.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on November 08, 2014, 08:59:32 AM
The other day I bought a Celestron USB microscope. I used it this morning to snap a pic and a short video of an O scale double-head bitt I had printed at Shapeways. Neat toy ... heck .. didn't even know it would do the video thing until I was clicking earlier in the software. Duh! :)

(http://images53.fotki.com/v107/photos/2/1709102/13394547/photo-vi.jpg)

video (http://youtu.be/Yi9J0QyR3ww)


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Chuck Doan on November 08, 2014, 01:28:13 PM
That came out pretty nice!


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on November 08, 2014, 01:35:49 PM
Looks as though cleanup will be minimal. That turned out quite well. -- Russ


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Juke Joint on November 08, 2014, 02:42:22 PM
Is the microscope for inspection only? Can you modify / trim parts under magnification such as where the bolt heads bleed into the bollard. Parts look ok.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on November 08, 2014, 07:14:30 PM
When you plug the USB cable in you view everything on the monitor. With set at the lower resolution the microscope/camera body is about two inches from what you are looking at so .. yeah .. you prob be helpful to fix the stand securely so it didn't move when bumped but I should be able to do some work under it .. such as the area where the bolt heads bleed into body. I think Shapeways has improved their printing .. seems to have a lot less layering.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on December 08, 2014, 04:13:28 PM
First look - 1:48 Bottles and Crates

  • Got these in today. I used a Budweiser as a 'model' for the bottles and mostly just 'guesstamated' the crates. These are as they came .. haven't cleaned them yet.
  • I have some Gloss Modge Podge and Orange and Brown Icing Color - will see if I can get them to look like brown glass.
  • Crates .. I remember that the older ones for soda were gray wood where the paint had worn off .. and they were .. unless new .. faded paint.



Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: marc_reusser on December 08, 2014, 04:48:54 PM
Look nice. Look forward to seeing how they clean up and finish.

FWIW.....I have used Tamiya clear gloss paints for colored glass and been pretty happy with the results.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on December 10, 2014, 06:22:59 PM
Bottle brown .. Mod Podge + Orange & Brown Icing Color (a gel food color) .. first coat


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Ray Dunakin on December 10, 2014, 07:17:59 PM
Nice! They look a lot smoother than I thought they'd be, judging from the unpainted photo.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on December 11, 2014, 02:19:57 AM
Satisfactory. -- Russ


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on December 11, 2014, 07:17:43 PM
Ray -
I think that's mostly an artifact of the way the camera was looking for that pic. Still .. considering the size they came out pretty good. I am of the opinion that the brown color is .. 'good nuff' .. for now .. but I made the 37 mi. round trip to town an picked up some gloss Tamiya colors for the next time (per Marc's suggestion).

I used my macro lens to take a snap of bottles in an unpainted crate (I couldn't help it) .. and while they don't look perfect .. from a normal viewing distance they will be ok.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on December 11, 2014, 07:20:01 PM
I got my 1:24 crates and bottles in today and used the Macro lens to snap a couple of pics. They are just as they came and need a little cleaning I think before painting.



Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on December 11, 2014, 07:21:11 PM
another view .. trying to get a good photo of these whitish/translucent prints I find difficult.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Mobilgas on December 11, 2014, 10:02:29 PM
Ed,   Bottles and crates look good.  I could use some in both scales ;D


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on December 12, 2014, 03:11:11 PM
Craig -
I'm uploaded various mixes of bottles, crates etc. to Shapeways. I am linking from my website directly to the Shapeways store .. you can find them under 'Details'. Still need to upload 1:24 bottles.

http://micromimesis.com/pcategory/details/


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on December 13, 2014, 02:47:03 AM
I think I mentioned this once about a year ago: Ed is very adept with SketchUp and spent about an hour on the phone tutoring me. My point is both to compliment him and also to stress that any of us could use the same free program to achieve similar results. I find Ed's post very inspirational. -- Russ


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Bill Gill on December 13, 2014, 03:29:23 PM
Agree completely with Russ's comments! Ed is a wizard with SketchUp and has been very helpful & encouraging about how to use it. He is also knowledgable and willing to design and contact Shapeways about printing parts. Recently I contacted him about making a tiny HO detail part, a "schoolhouse" lighting globe. This full size fixture has been around for ages in many locations besides schools, a quick search will turn up many examples. Ed took a photo I sent him and turned it into a tangible object to experiment with. Below is a photo he took of them still on the printing sprue. And you can see how they turned out here:http://railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=44096&whichpage=1


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Chuck Doan on December 13, 2014, 04:08:53 PM
I have thought the same thing. Ed is taking Sketch Up to a very high level. It's been neat to see.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Lawton Maner on January 17, 2015, 08:53:07 PM
Staples is now selling 3D printers in their stores. A clerk in the store in Williamsburg, Va. claims that they will soon have one for public use in the copy center.
Film later.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Bexley on February 22, 2015, 02:29:16 AM
Dremel also appears to make a 3D printer now. Available at Home Depot (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Dremel-Idea-Builder-3D-Printer-3D20-01/205448581?cm_mmc=SEM|THD|D25T&mid=sbXlRRxEl|dt_mtid_8903pn525184_pcrid_53770776037_pkw_dremel%203d%20printer_pmt_e&gclid=CjwKEAiAmaanBRCIt4364e2d6yUSJAA9VXTUPu7-SBFs5Pqxtfbl6h2t28mDPiFlKfetY5M_pEm28RoCbYvw_wcB) even.



Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: 5thwheel on February 22, 2015, 11:56:26 AM
Oh no! Another Dremel tool.  Not knowing much about  3 D printing am wondering if this is just a toy?  What is 100 microns for printing quality? The information does not mention the soft wear need to design your own models.

What is the expected life span of things modeled in 3D? In other words once something is printed in 3D how long would the item last?


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on February 22, 2015, 02:12:51 PM
My impression parallels Bill's. It looks like a lo-res, low quality tool or, as Bill suggests, perhaps of not much more use for modeling than a toy. On the other hand it shows how mainstream the technology will become. -- Russ


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Hauk on February 23, 2015, 07:27:06 AM
I dread the mountains of plastic garbage that will be printed on the growing army of low-end printers lilke the Makerbot and the Dremel.

I agree that they probably can be great educational tools. But all 3D printer filament should be recyclable.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on February 23, 2015, 08:11:17 PM
The Dremel was reviewed in the current Make magazine 3D printer issue.

excerpts ..

.. has a color touch-screen interface that makes leveling the bed, loading filament, and selecting files a joy.
.. this single-extruder machine feels solid, but lightweight
.. software interface is similar to MakerBot Desktop or Cura
.. noticeably absent were options to change print temperatures, infill percentages, add rafts (without support) or use custom G-code profiles
.. no heated platform, so this machine is PLA only

biggest 'PRO' seems to be a lot of hand holding

Print Scores (5 highest)
Accuracy 5
Backlash 4
Bridging 4
Fine Features 3
Surface Curved 2
Surface General 3
Tolerance 2
XY Resonance FAIL (Tests the printer's ability to resolve single-extrusion width features and exposes resonance in the XY gantry (like printing a box))
Z Resonance PASS (Exposes mechanical issues in the Z motion system (like printing a vertical rod))


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on February 24, 2015, 02:27:37 AM
Thanks, Ed. Sounds like a very average unit overall but Dremel's market is more the handyman than the fastidious modeler so maybe it would be a decent choice for those guys. -- Russ


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on February 24, 2015, 09:46:26 AM
Russ .. yep .. biggest thing is it is turnkey I think.

From the Maker magazine results .. the Dremel (Idea Builder) is about half-way . Best is the Ultimaker 2



Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on February 24, 2015, 01:45:30 PM
I don't see Bexley's unit there. -- Russ


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on February 24, 2015, 01:56:04 PM
These are all filament printers. They didn't include the Formlabs Form 1+, Project 1200 or B9 Creator .. all either laser or projector resin printers. Umm . the dimensional accuracy test ..

Accuracy: Form 1 -0.14, ProJet 1200 0, B9 Creator -0.25
Precision/Resolution: Form 1 +/- 0.08mm, ProJet 1200 +/- 0.21mm, B9 Creator +/- 0.06mm


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: mabloodhound on February 24, 2015, 05:15:06 PM
Well, we will soon see how the FormLabs Form +1 handles our needs as a well known manufacturer has just bought one.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on February 25, 2015, 09:43:37 AM
Well, we will soon see how the FormLabs Form +1 handles our needs as a well known manufacturer has just bought one.

He's printed a couple of tests already and they are looking good


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Bexley on February 26, 2015, 12:53:26 AM
Resolution is sort of an iffy measure of print quality. For filament printers, it's the smallest increment the head can move in. But it doesn't really take into account nozzle size- it might have an X-Y resolution of 100 microns and a Z rsolution of 100 microns, but if the nozzle is 400 microns in diameter, you're not going to really get 100 micron resolution in your print. With projector types, Z resolution is usually the amount the build table can move up for each layer, and XY is generally by the size of he pixels of the projected image. With those, things like light bleed and undercure can lead to a loss of resolution in the print.

With the B9, the XY is adjusted by raising or lowering the projector, and goes from 30 microns to 70 microns. (The catch is as the projector moves slower, the build area shrinks.) The Z can be as little as 5 microns, but it takes a lot of tweaking of settings to cure such a thin layer evenly, and when you slice in layers smaller than XY resolution of the projector, you don't really gain much. The smallest useful Z increment is 25microns. The difference between a 30 XY/25 Z print and a 70XY/50 Z print is noticeable. On our pro machine at work (which controls a lot of things like light bleed and cure speed and other proprietary things they won't explain) you almost can't tell the difference between a 100 micron and a 50 micron print with the naked eye, and both are still crisper than a B9 30 XY/25 Z print, which in theory is a higher resolution print.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Hydrostat on March 17, 2015, 03:41:35 AM
Stumbled over that: http://carbon3d.com/
 (http://carbon3d.com/) That's going to be interesting ...

Cheers,
Volker


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: mabloodhound on March 17, 2015, 09:24:12 AM
That is astounding Volker.  Sure seems to solve some of the inherent problems with layer printing.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on March 17, 2015, 12:52:29 PM
I sure hope they perfect that process and can offer it at a reasonable price. Seems to have terrific potential. -- Russ


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Hauk on March 17, 2015, 01:37:49 PM
I sure hope they perfect that process and can offer it at a reasonable price. Seems to have terrific potential. -- Russ

Great potential, indeed!
But resolution needs to be far better, the only thing I found regarding resolution was "better than 100 microns". It should be be closer to 10 microns to compete with Fine Line Prototyping.

Speaking of FLP, I found  a forum posting on RMweb by a Finnish modeler that uses FLP for resin masters:
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/96279-project-masters-for-resin-casting/

Micro Fine Green by FLP is still the gold standard for 3D-printing, it seems.

But It comes at a cost, masters for the H0 diesel would set you back around USD 1170,- !



Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on March 17, 2015, 05:58:32 PM
for those curious .. the FLP Design Guidelines page
http://www.protolabs.com/stereolithography/design-guidelines

The Micro Resolution .. which is Micro Fine Green (looks like) - Layer thickness of 0.001 in. with minimum feature size of 0.002 in.

using the Inches to Microns conversion page - http://www.metric-conversions.org/length/inches-to-microns.htm
that is a 25.4 micron layer thickness .. but the important thing .. IMHO .. ist he minimum feature size of 50.8 microns. That is 0.0508 mm. Shapeways' FUD has a minimum of 0.1mm .. so the Micro Fine Green is only twice the resolution of FUD. Not knocking them .. that's great .. but .. not too shabby SW.

With a minimum of 0.1mm .. and with 25.4mm to an inch the resolution of FUD (my little mind needs visual comparisons) .. is 254 dpi (drops per inch??). Mico Fine Green there fore is twice that or 508 dpi.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on March 18, 2015, 12:53:34 PM
If I were to offer a commercial HO scale diesel, and assuming a run of 100 pieces, $1,200 for masters would seem reasonable. Especially since the guy said they required no sanding or filing. -- Russ


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on April 01, 2015, 05:46:39 AM
I tossed some primer on some prints. The rack and bottles on the left are 1:24 .. seems that up into the mid 50's this was how you bought oil at a gas station .. glass bottles with a metal spout.  The rest are bits from a traveling crane i am working on in 1:48. These are in the order of test prints to see what I messed up. The blocks for example I had to re-work because the space for the cable between the top of the sheaves and the block body was too small. I don't what that *&#$% is on the pulleys .. it doesn't show so must have been some trash when I took the pic.

One thing I realized when primering them is that I need to add an additional small sprue so I can hold them while shooting primer with my locking tweezers.

(http://images52.fotki.com/v726/photos/2/1709102/13640094/photo1-vi.jpg)


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Bill Gill on April 01, 2015, 06:02:53 AM
Good looking parts, Ed. Could you poke a toothpick into the center of the pulleys to hold them for painting? That would avoid removing a sprue nub.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on April 01, 2015, 06:54:03 AM
that or a wire come to think of it. I'm slow in the mornings before I've had all my coffee :)


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on April 01, 2015, 12:38:45 PM
That's how the parts look without filing or sanding and nothing more than an overspray of primer? If so, most satisfactory. -- Russ


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on April 01, 2015, 01:53:32 PM
Russ - yep. Just tossed them in some Bestine and  an Ultrasonic Cleaner to get the last of the support wax off and primered them.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on April 03, 2015, 01:11:26 PM
Just got this email from Shapeways ..

The high points for me were ..


What's happening? On April 15th we are:

Introducing Frosted Extreme Detail (FXD), with a higher resolution than Frosted Ultra Detail (FUD)
Retiring Frosted Detail (FD); FUD will remain unchanged
Renaming the Detail Plastics materials Acrylic Plastics

Frosted Extreme Detail has a higher resolution than Frosted Ultra Detail, decreasing the layer height from 29 to 16 microns


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Hauk on April 03, 2015, 02:36:37 PM
Just got this email from Shapeways ..

The high points for me were ..


What's happening? On April 15th we are:

Introducing Frosted Extreme Detail (FXD), with a higher resolution than Frosted Ultra Detail (FUD)
Retiring Frosted Detail (FD); FUD will remain unchanged
Renaming the Detail Plastics materials Acrylic Plastics

Frosted Extreme Detail has a higher resolution than Frosted Ultra Detail, decreasing the layer height from 29 to 16 microns

That is great news! And maybe this will force FineLine Prototyping to lower their prices.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on April 04, 2015, 01:00:00 AM
Who needs 'em? Now we have Bexley! -- Russ


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: marc_reusser on April 15, 2015, 11:26:08 PM
Drawn in SU...and sent to Shapeways (this is being done in their "old" FUD)...so the new stuff should be wonderful when it becomes available.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: marc_reusser on April 15, 2015, 11:26:46 PM
Received my Shapeways prints today, and all I can say, is that the folks over there did a wonderful job printing these. The pics show them fresh out of the box...with no cleaning. The major/important surfaces are nearly as smooth as glass to the touch, and those that have some print stepping, it is so minor that a swipe with sandpaper and a coat of primer will make it vanish (It could also be left and used as part of the sawed/chiseled stone texture). The molding details are all there....from the larger moldings at the top, to the chamfers at the Norman/English face, and even there very small ogee detail at the hearth of the Spanish/Italian corner one.

The tops of the pieces show/have the most stepping/texture, but what looks like stepping on the large face surfaces, is actually mostly refraction of the layers inside the material...not on the surface.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: marc_reusser on April 15, 2015, 11:27:24 PM
Detail of Spanish/Italian corner fireplace.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: marc_reusser on April 15, 2015, 11:28:38 PM
Detail of large fireplace.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: marc_reusser on April 15, 2015, 11:29:18 PM
Detail of English/Norman fireplace.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Hauk on April 16, 2015, 12:32:59 AM
Very nice!
This is good old FUD, I presume? Not FXD?


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: marc_reusser on April 16, 2015, 12:36:47 AM
Thanks. Yes, this is the old FUD. I am most curious how it would look in the new FXD.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Hauk on April 16, 2015, 01:09:52 AM
Thanks. Yes, this is the old FUD. I am most curious how it would look in the new FXD.

Just placed my order for a couple of test parts in FXD. Will post pictures as soon as they arrive (est. delivery 4th of May)


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: marc_reusser on April 16, 2015, 01:30:59 AM
Cool. Am curious to see the results.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on April 16, 2015, 01:47:25 AM
Thank you for posting those images, Marc. -- Russ


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: marc_reusser on April 16, 2015, 03:35:22 AM
Of course, Russ. :)

May try some items along this line in the FXD.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Hauk on April 23, 2015, 11:40:26 AM
My first Froste Extreme Detail parts arrived today.
Here are  an image straight out of the box, no cleaning or preparing:

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/FXD_test_01.jpg)

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/FXD_test_utsnitt_01.jpg)

For comparasion, here is the same part printed on a Solidscape machine:

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/prescision_wax_01_w.jpg)

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/prescision_wax_02_w.jpg)

The only difference is the supports, the actual part is the exact same model.

It is interesting that the Solidscape part is printed with thicker layers than the SW part. So layer thickness is not everything!


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: TRAINS1941 on April 23, 2015, 04:15:00 PM
Marc some nice pieces there.

But the question is what are the fireplaces for??

Left in a building after it was bombed maybe??  Or just practice??

Jerry


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: mabloodhound on April 25, 2015, 09:56:33 AM
Got my door handle parts from Shapeways.  These go on the four corners of the drop bottom gondola to control the chains to the bottom doors.
The mounting plate is 1/8" wide (6" in 1:48 scale).  These are small and finicky in 1:48 and I don't know how the HO guys put together their kits.
I'm very pleased with how they came out.
Quick hand held photo is not the best.  Not cleaned yet either.  I adjusted the photo contrast to help see them.



Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on April 25, 2015, 03:28:55 PM
When you have a chance, and when you have primed the parts, please place them under a bright light and share new photos. These photos suggest very nice results but are too fuzzy for us accurately to evaluate the quality. Thanks, Dave! -- Russ


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Ray Dunakin on April 25, 2015, 09:05:21 PM
This seems pretty interesting, but I'm curious what you guys with 3D experience think of it:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/tiko3d/tiko-the-unibody-3d-printer?ref=nav_search (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/tiko3d/tiko-the-unibody-3d-printer?ref=nav_search)



Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on April 25, 2015, 09:41:05 PM
Those did come out nice Dave. Like I said .. part of the process (good part) is figuring out what works and what doesn't


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: mabloodhound on April 26, 2015, 07:11:10 AM
Ray, that Tiko looks promising.
Maybe we can get Ed to try one out although delivery isn't planned to start until this Fall.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on May 09, 2015, 10:53:54 AM
I stumbled across this http://www.ottgallery.com/Woodruff.html (http://www.ottgallery.com/Woodruff.html) a minute ago on the same site as another model a friend wanted me to see. It is an ornate HO scale passenger car with 3-D printed trucks, ends, and roof by Shapeways. Most other parts are laser cut. I long have thought that approach to be the future of mainstream modeling and it looks as though things already are starting to happen. -- Russ


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: marc_reusser on May 09, 2015, 11:26:15 PM
Finally had a moment to give these a quick cleaning, a few swipes of 400 sandpaper and some MR Surfacer 1200. One or two areas could use another swipe...but otherwise I think the print texture will work in my favor for hand sawn and cut stone. Next step would be to add more tooling marks and some chipped areas. (For scale, the steel block is 5cm tall)


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on May 10, 2015, 01:18:59 AM
They look like high quality molded parts. -- Russ


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: lab-dad on May 11, 2015, 05:49:25 AM
They look stoned to me  :P
Seriously though they do look the part.

May be sometime you could do a quick demo (on the sketch-up thread)  of how you did the sine curve on the one?

-Marty


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: marc_reusser on May 15, 2015, 12:32:59 AM
Thanks guys.

Marty, I do all the drawings for parts and components in AutoCAD in 2D, then import them into SU and just extrude, stretch and offset most of them as needed. Some areas and connections are drawn in SU, but those are the less detailed ones/areas.

If I had to do it in SU, I would probably do it by first drawing a plane, and then using the arc tools to draw connected arcs on that plane that gave me the shape I wanted.

If I knew the parameters of the curve I could first draw a bounding box and lines/grid that would give me some hard points to start/stop/connect at/from, with the subsequent arcs. It probably wouldn't give a mathematically perfect sine curve, but you could create one that visually would pass inspection.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: marc_reusser on May 15, 2015, 12:44:13 AM
The SU "Extension Warehouse" has a free plug-in extension called "Curve Maker" that says it will allow you to create a variety of complex curves. I have not tried it.

Here is a screen-clip of what it supposedly can do.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: lab-dad on May 15, 2015, 05:33:39 AM
Cool! ;D
Thanks Marc!
I will give it a try and put my efforts on the right thread.

Marty


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Rail and Tie on January 24, 2016, 01:38:32 PM
Thought I would post some photos of some early prints that I did with our new Projet 1200. This is a small format SLA printer from 3DSystems. About the size of a coffee maker. So far very impressed with it's ease of use and quality of prints.  Most of the time that I spent was trying to get the printer registered with 3DS over the Christmas season!!  Still a relatively expensive machine, but very straight forward to use. No calibrating, no fidgety set up, just plug and play.

Here are some first prints.  The Prius is in N Scale.  The other photo shows some HO and O scale bottles, a HO and O scale pot belly stove with separate base, door and interior carved out to accept some LED glowing embers. Also an N Scale ships boat and N Scale Windless in the lower left.

The layer ridges you see are 35 microns or so. In the photo they look huge, but remember the print area which is smaller than the platform is 1.69" X 1.06" and can be as high as 4 inches.  This build took about 45 minutes to print.

Cheers!


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Ray Dunakin on January 24, 2016, 02:09:57 PM
Those look great!


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on January 24, 2016, 02:22:23 PM
Suppose you wanted to print a short 1/32-inch diameter rod sticking out of a little box (1:1 size). Or maybe an n-b-w about that size. Based on the prints you have made, would the rod likely print cleanly or would you be better off just using a length of brass? (I'm trying to get an idea of your printer's resolution.) The parts in the photos look very good. -- Russ


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Rail and Tie on January 24, 2016, 03:24:31 PM
Hi Russ,

The 1/32" rod would print pretty cleanly if vertical. Horizontally you would see layering steps along the length of the rod at 0.0012" levels. So small you can almost sand with your fingerprint to burnish out the steps. If oriented at a 45degree angle, the rod would print with an pretty good level of detail and accuracy acceptable to the naked eye. Especially after priming.

In the attached picture below you can see an HO scale truck tire printed horizontally and vertically.  The vertical print is of a dual wheel so slightly different, though the bolt heads are the same in both prints (0.016" across the flats). The wheels are 0.391"diameter.

You will see the difference in the vertical vs horizontal accuracy as the material slumps ever so slightly during the print process (why the second print is smoother in the vertical. More notable in the vertical bolt heads. If this were 0.032" dia heads the detail would hold up very well.  I will try to do some comparison prints in size and orientation to provide comparison.

The little pins you see in the vertical print are supports that are generated for the print. You can have these auto generated or do them manually.  They look obtrusive, but these are the largest size supports that it can print. I have since been making the supports much smaller with a point that gets to about 0.005 at the separation point. The supports are required as the printing actually takes place upside down printing the support foundation first then the support pins and then the structure that you want printed. in this way you have to think about what to support and what not to.

The green material it is printed in is a UV cured Plastic Resin.

The conversation continues.....


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Bill Gill on January 24, 2016, 04:48:47 PM
Nice examples. What is the green print material?


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on January 25, 2016, 02:23:50 AM
Thank you! Much better than I had expected, and quite impressive. Very nice work in every respect. Maybe there's hope for printing my little Plymouth gas mechanical .... -- Russ.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Wesleybeks on January 29, 2016, 02:20:22 AM
Yet another 3d printing technology that is emerging. Certainly fascinating and exciting times we living in.

http://carbon3d.com/


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: greenie on February 10, 2016, 06:30:16 PM
Here's what's on offer at Aldi stores in Australia from the 17th Feb, now is this any good as a starter to learn how to operate one, or is it just a bit of junk ?

https://www.aldi.com.au/en/special-buys/special-buys-wed-17-feb/wednesday-detail-wk07/ps/p/3d-printer/



regards  greenie  


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: danpickard on February 19, 2016, 01:17:01 PM
Even the kids are getting into it...

http://www.wired.com/2016/02/thingmaker-is-for-kids-but-youll-want-this-3-d-printer-for-yourself/

Cheers,
Dan


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Allan G on February 19, 2016, 07:35:13 PM
This is awesome! It should bring non-techy families into the 3-D printing realm and expose kids to new possibilities (as long as the kids don't have a meltdown or get totally frustrated waiting for the final product). Great!... Allan


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on February 20, 2016, 02:33:36 PM
I had the doors with axes, hydrant wrench and Tabor spannes 3d printed as one piece as I was somewhat hesitant to print them individually in O scale.

(http://etraxx.com/lcnrr/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/painteddoorsFinal-900.jpg)

(http://etraxx.com/lcnrr/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/DoorsGlued-900.jpg)


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: mabloodhound on February 20, 2016, 03:37:11 PM
Nice Ed, but how do you get those axes off the door?  :o
With those U-bolts they're going to get hung up on the top board. ::)


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on February 20, 2016, 10:26:47 PM
Nice drawing/printing job, Ed. -- Russ


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on February 22, 2016, 06:50:30 AM
Nice Ed, but how do you get those axes off the door?  :o
With those U-bolts they're going to get hung up on the top board. ::)
With a little pry bar .. still have to make that :)


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Bill Gill on May 07, 2016, 08:54:02 AM
This sounds like an interesting material for especially larger scales. It's a 3D print material that has a low melting point that allows it to be sculpted after printing not only to remove printing striations, but to add or change details. So you could print a basic piece but then be able to customize the final shape. Worth looking at in this YouTube video!
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elmx-suesKE


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Mobilgas on May 31, 2016, 12:35:29 PM
Question?  Could you take a HO scale white metal truck kit and turn this into a 1/48 scale 3D printed truck with out to much trouble?   ;D


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Bill Gill on June 01, 2016, 04:56:30 AM
Craig, Hmmm, don't know, but did hear of a guy who drove to a casino in a 30 yr old Yugo and 12 hours later went home in a $300,000 Greyhound bus, is that similar? ::)


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Mobilgas on June 01, 2016, 07:48:30 AM
I'll put this another way.  I have a HO scale white metal kit can you use 3d printing to make the kit in O scale 1/48 scale??  Kind of thinking they can scan the parts / or do something?? to print it in 1/8 scale.  I know nothing about 3 D printing can you have this done being you have a completed part in hand?  Or does everything have to be do on a computer first.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on June 01, 2016, 12:28:20 PM
One or two of our guys may have experience with the method you describe but I would advise against it. HO scale vehicles tend to be rather crude to begin with and enlarging one to 1:48, factoring in additional imperfections from scanning, could result in something you might not want. You would be much better off 1.) using information from the kit to scratchbuild a model, 2.) checking Shapeways and elsewhere to see whether anybody already has drawn 3-D plans for the vehicle you want, or (and I'm serious about this) 3.) downloading SketchUp (it's free) and drawing your own components.

I include the last suggestion because SketchUp is a simple program and takes a fairly short amount of time to learn. Many of us can help you. Once you have completed the first drawing you'll be able to create nearly anything else you could imagine.

Russ


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Design-HSB on June 01, 2016, 03:21:09 PM
Of course you can scan models with a 3D scanner as a basis for a new model. Only should minimize the errors better larger models as in 1:24, or even better used 1:16. Then this volume data in the 3D CAD must however be reworked also definitely. So better Always use a larger model as a template and then collapse.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Bill Gill on June 01, 2016, 05:01:20 PM
Craig, I apologize, I didn't quite follow your question the way it was intended. Russ is right, scaling up an HO truck would probably not yield the results you'd want.
A few years ago Railroad Model Craftsman magazine had an article showing how a 3D scan of a prototype locomotive that would be used in creating patterns for modeling the engine was made. The scan even recorded the differences in thickness of the paint in a few locations, so imagine what would happen when scaling up a typical HO vehicle!

I have read where modelers have gotten prototype plans for the thing they wanted to 3D model and used programs like SketchUp to convert the 2D drawings into a 3D rendering that could be printed. How simple is that to do? Ed Traxler (a member of the forum) is a wizard with SketchUp. Ed is who I would ask for suggestions and ideas of how to approach the project.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: mabloodhound on June 02, 2016, 10:32:08 AM
Ed also has one of the new 3D scanners.  Not sure if he's perfected using it yet.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Mobilgas on June 02, 2016, 08:01:27 PM
Russ,   Sketchup  for me to learn is not going to happen  ??? I'm to set in my way's and don't really want to learn it....rather pay someone to do that for me!!  I did ask some one on the forum if this could be done about a year ago and that's as far as it went. >:( Oh well another Idea I had bites the dust.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on June 02, 2016, 09:57:29 PM
Hey, Craig, learning SketchUp was only one of three ideas. A fourth is that somebody here might actually want to draw the vehicle for you. -- Russ


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: marc_reusser on June 07, 2016, 12:28:34 AM
Craig,

Pete Hamann, (member here on the forum) does 3D drafting and design work, and printing prep for others. Maybe try dropping him a note.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: TRAINS1941 on June 07, 2016, 08:12:58 AM
Craig,

Pete Hamann, (member here on the forum) does 3D drafting and design work, and printing prep for others. Maybe try dropping him a note.

OMG  He lives!!

Good to see your still alive and kicking.

Jerry


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on June 22, 2016, 04:09:26 PM
Ed also has one of the new 3D scanners.  Not sure if he's perfected using it yet.

This is a scan of a Nissan emblem. I embedded it in clay for  the scan .. the idea would be to copy the top part to replace the bit hidden by the clay. The emblem is about 4" dia. I used MeshLab to reduced the number of polygons quite a bit


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Mobilgas on June 22, 2016, 06:47:55 PM
Marc,   Thanks for the info  ;D  ill have to get ahold of him in the future....maybe this Fall when the weather gets cold!  hard to think about modeling when the weather's nice. ::)


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on June 23, 2016, 12:58:14 AM
Ed, that's pretty nice. -- Russ


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Hauk on June 27, 2016, 03:15:10 PM
I think we have only just begun to see the results of combining  3D Scanning and 3D printing.

Here are a couple of 0-scale figures (Yours truly and friend) made with a cheap ($350) handheld scanner and a B9 printer:

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/H_H_W_01.jpg)

The scans and prints were made by a Welsh  company called Modelu (http://www.modelu3d.co.uk). Cost for 2 scans and 4 figures (2 in 0-scale and 2 in H0).
The cost was around USD 98 including postage from Wales to Norway.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Chuck Doan on June 27, 2016, 08:13:15 PM
Cool! Pretty darn nice quality. You should scan yourself working on your model.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on June 28, 2016, 01:14:33 AM
I am impressed. -- Russ


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Bill Gill on June 28, 2016, 05:01:30 AM
Hauk, Those look really good. I've read that the red material is a hard wax, similar to lost wax casting material for jewelry. Have you tried painting any of the figures yet? If so what did you use and how did it work?


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Hauk on June 28, 2016, 05:06:10 AM
I think custom scanned and printed figures will really take off.  
One of the things that give a model scene away is that you recognised the little people form countless other layouts and dioramas. Especially the better looking little people seem to travel a lot both in time and space!

Another nice feature is that you with almost no extra effort can produce them in any scale. Our figures were printed in "Scandinavian 0-scale", 1/45. Usually I have to choose betweeen 1/48 and 1/43,5 (British 7mm scale). I also had an H0 version made:

(http://www.folk-rovere.org/mj/bilder/HRH2_w.jpg)

I think it is incredible that you can produce figures with this kind of quality using around $5000 worth of hardware.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Hauk on June 28, 2016, 05:14:09 AM
Hauk, Those look really good. I've read that the red material is a hard wax, similar to lost wax casting material for jewelry. Have you tried painting any of the figures yet? If so what did you use and how did it work?

I have not yet tried to paint the figures, and I have some concerns regarding paint adhesion.
But others seems to be doing just fine:
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/1972/entry-17746-modelu-figures-in-4mm-first-one-painted/

By the way, the fgures are resin, not hard wax. But this resin is burnable, so jewellers use prints in this material for "lost resin castings". 


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Bill Gill on June 28, 2016, 03:19:38 PM
Back in April I emailed Alan at Modelu to tell him how much I liked his figures even in HO scale. I asked him what the red material was and this is what he wrote in reply:
The resin is hard though also does have an amount of elasticity to it as it has a wax content for casting.  For that reason I only use the red resin as the non-wax resins are far too brittle.
Cheers
Alan


Wonder how much wax there is in that resin? Not sure the long term stability of wax, but boy do those figures look great!


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Hauk on June 28, 2016, 11:51:41 PM
Back in April I emailed Alan at Modelu to tell him how much I liked his figures even in HO scale. I asked him what the red material was and this is what he wrote in reply:
The resin is hard though also does have an amount of elasticity to it as it has a wax content for casting.  For that reason I only use the red resin as the non-wax resins are far too brittle.
Cheers
Alan


Wonder how much wax there is in that resin? Not sure the long term stability of wax, but boy do those figures look great!


Thanks for the clarification! It never occurred to me that the resins could contain wax.
For long term stability I guess I will just have to wait and see. And keep the little ones out of the sun and UV-light!


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Rail and Tie on December 31, 2016, 03:29:29 PM
Been a while since I posted here, but always lurking. Here is a detail that I have been working on. An HO Scale power meter. printed on my printer. I am finding that the resolution is holding up well in this scale. the meter dials should be raised further to show off the disks, but overall I am pretty happy with the output.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Ray Dunakin on December 31, 2016, 07:06:12 PM
Wow! That turned out great, especially considering the small scale.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on January 01, 2017, 01:57:37 AM
The resolution really surprises me. Maybe there's hope for printing my 1:32 scale Plymouth. -- Russ


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on January 01, 2017, 12:49:39 PM
What printer did you use to print the meter? That came out very well.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Rail and Tie on January 01, 2017, 01:55:59 PM
Thanks guys, this was printed on my 3DS Projet 1200 Printer. The printer is great for small parts as it has a 1.7"X1" and 5" tall print area. I find the resolution to be better than anything I have done with shapeways and the finish is superior to what I have gotten from shapeways as well because there is no build wax residue to deal with.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: mabloodhound on January 03, 2017, 12:56:21 PM
The gas meter came out very nice.
I too like the fine details better than what I get from Shapeways.
 8)


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on January 03, 2017, 02:20:06 PM
Does anyone know of a service bureau that uses the 3DS Projet 1200 Printer? I'm sure many of us could use a place offering higher resolution output. -- Russ


Title: Scaling from 1:48 to 1:24
Post by: eTraxx on October 23, 2017, 07:00:38 AM
I posted some pics of my 3d printed 1:48 Ore bin chutes/gates the other day. Ray Dunakin asked if I could scale them up to 1:24. That .. CAN .. be done of course but I got to thinking about it and thought it would be worthwhile to show the problems/constraints etc. this process engenders. This will by the way be the most "geeky" part of this thread .. at least I hope so.

-- Sketchup --
Ok. I'm not going to go anywhere near the "this is better than that" thing. I use Sketchup .. and will address the problems that can create .. and the workarounds in a bit. I am hoping the discussion can focus on the modeling while letting what software one uses be simply their choice.

Sketchup was created by @Last Software with version 1 released in 2000 as a modeling tool for “Architects, designers, and filmmakers”. The part about ‘Architects’ may have something to do with a couple of the problematic issues with the program – at least as far as it relates to those of us using the program to model scale objects.

— Problem —
The program refuses to create a radius below approximately .018″ – which means the smallest hole you can create therefore is .036″. To give an idea what this means .. here is what that .036″ is in various scales:
  • HO scale – 3.132″
  • O scale – 1.738″
  • 1:24 – 0.864″

Obviously, those of us who use Sketchup for scale modeling will have a problem with this.

This same restriction comes into play when re-sizing objects as you can get glitches where you have missing polygons when resizing curves. Sketchup can throw a fit sometimes when resizing a spherical surface.

So .. what to do?

One way would be to re-size a model up x 100 .. and then re-size back down x 100 when finished. This can work .. probably works *most* of the time but not all. You can still run into problems when that reduction re-size drops radii below that 0.018" radius.

-- Pmm --
My own solution is to use what I term .. Pseudo Millimeter .. Pmm modeling. Ummmm. How to explain so it makes sense .. let’s try this …
Let’s take a cube which full-size is 1ft x 1ft x 1ft. We also want to punch a 1″ dia hole though it

  • In HO scale this cube would be 0.138″ x 0.138″ x 0.138″ with a 0.012″ hole
  • In O scale this cube would be 0.250″ x 0.250″ x 0.250″ with a 0.021″ hole
  • n 1:24 scale this cube would be 0.5″ x 0.5″ x 0.5″ with a 0.042″ hole

Note that both HO scale and O scale the holes are smaller than 0.036″ dia. To model these cubes we would have to go through re-sizing up and then back once finished. 
My Pmm method not only bypasses this problem it also allows working directly in scale .. Simply .. I set the units to Decimal Inches but model as if I were working in mm.

sooo .. back to the cubes …
In HO the cube is 3.5 x 3.5 x 3.5 with a 0.3 hole
In O the cube is 6.35 x 6.35 x 6.35 with a 0.533 hole
In 1:24 the cube is 12.7 x 12.7 x 12.7 with a 1.07 hole
Ignore the ” .. indicating inches .. or simply uncheck the [ ] Display units format in Model Info.

Happy days .. that 0.036″ minimum hole dia is now .. ummm .. 0.00014″
In addition we can model directly .. as it were .. to scale. Example, for WSF the minimum wall thickness is .7mm .. so we can measure directly on the model to ensure that any all is equal to or greater than that .7 mm minimum. In reality .. I keep to a .8mm minimum for WSF and a .4mm for FUD (even though the stated minimum is .3mm) .. makes all the difference. I have found that using minimums causes unending pain to the modeler. Just my 2¢ – ignore it at your own peril.

  • In HO that 0.138″ is 3.5mm (ok .. 3.5052 but .. that extra bit is not worth worrying about)
  • In O that 0.250″ is 6.35mm
  • n 1:24 that 0.5″ is 12.7mm

-- Exporting for printing --
If I design a cube 25.4 on a side and export as a DAE file, I can then import it into MeshLab do what 3D stuff I need to do and export a STL file which will contain a cube 25.4 UNITS on a side. I upload to Shapeways and simply tell them that the model is in millimeters .. and the model is exactly the size I need it to be.


Title: Scaling from 1:48 to 1:24
Post by: eTraxx on October 23, 2017, 08:53:59 AM
Strong & Flexible Plastic Material Information (http://"https://www.shapeways.com/materials/strong-and-flexible-plastic")

The following is the data for White Strong and Flexible from Shapeways. This is important *stuff* .. in that we have to work with (and around) these limits when working in 3D

Strong and Flexible plastics from Shapeways are sintered nylon .. meaning layers of nylon powder is fused with a laser beam. What you end up is a product that is similar in some ways to derlin plastic but with a rough surface. To me this works well for things like cast iron for 1:48 and larger scales. The material is strong .. much more than the higher detail frosted detail plastics.

Price
$1.50/part
$0.28/material cm3
$0.21/machine cm3

  • Min supported wall thickness (A supported wall is one connected to other walls on two or more sides.) - 0.7 mm thick
  • Min unsupported wall thickness (An unsupported wall is one connected to other walls on less than two sides.) - 0.7 mm thick
  • Min supported wires (A wire is a feature whose length is greater than five times its width. A supported wire is connected to walls on both sides. If you must use sprues, use them sparingly, use 2mm thick wires, solid connections, and attach every part in at least two places) - 0.8 mm thick
  • Min unsupported wires (A wire is a feature whose length is greater than five times its width. An unsupported wire is connected to walls on less than two sides.) - 1.0 mm thick
  • Min embossed detail (A detail is a feature whose length is less than twice its width. Embossed details stick out from a surface.) - 0.2 mm high & wide, 0.5 mm for readable text
  • Min engraved detail (A detail is a feature whose length is less than twice its width. Engraved or debossed details go into a surface.) - 0.2 mm high & wide, 0.5 mm for readable text
  • Min escape holes (Escape holes allow unbuilt material inside hollow products to be removed.) - 4.0 mm diameter for one escape hole, 2.0 mm diameter when there are two or more escape holes. Required for products bigger than 50 × 50 × 50 mm
  • Clearance (Clearance is the space between any two parts, walls or wires.) - 0.5 mm clearance


Title: Scaling from 1:48 to 1:24
Post by: eTraxx on October 23, 2017, 08:59:45 AM
Frosted Detail Plastic Material Information (http://"https://www.shapeways.com/materials/frosted-detail-plastic")

The following is the data for Frosted Detail Plastics from Shapeways. Again .. this is important information which is necessary to get good designs for 3D prints. FUD and FXD are great for detail .. but are weak and brittle.

FUD (29 micron layers)
Price
$2.50 handling fee
$1.00 /part
$0.75 /material cm3
$0.38 /support cm3
$0.09 /machine ((Footprint cm2) x (Height cm)1.25)

FXD (16 micron layers)
Price
$2.50 handling fee
$1.00 /part
$1.00 /material cm3
$0.50 /support cm3
$0.20 /machine ((Footprint cm2) x (Height cm)1.25)

•   Min bounding box   X + Y + Z = 12 mm. At least two axes must be = 2.49 mm
•   Min supported wall thickness (A supported wall is one connected to other walls on two or more sides.) - 0.3 mm thick
•   Min unsupported wall thickness (An unsupported wall is one connected to other walls on less than two sides.) - 0.6 mm thick
•   Min supported wires (A wire is a feature whose length is greater than two times its width. A supported wire is connected to walls on both sides.) - 0.6 mm thick
•   Min unsupported wires (A wire is a feature whose length is greater than two times its width. An unsupported wire is connected to walls on less than two sides.) - 0.8 mm thick, 1.0 mm if bearing weight (like a sprue)
•   Min embossed detail (A detail is a feature whose length is less than twice its width. Engraved or debossed details go into a surface.) - 0.1 mm high & wide
•   Min engraved detail (A detail is a feature whose length is less than twice its width. Engraved or debossed details go into a surface.) - 0.1 mm high & wide
•   Min escape holes (Escape holes allow unbuilt material inside hollow products to be removed.) - 4.0 mm diameter for one escape hole, 2.0 mm diameter when there are two or more escape holes
•   Clearance (Clearance is the space between any two walls, wires, or separate parts.) - 0.05 mm clearance


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Greg Hile on October 23, 2017, 09:19:38 AM
This is really important information to have. Much appreciated and looking forward to more!


Title: Scaling from 1:48 to 1:24
Post by: eTraxx on October 23, 2017, 09:44:13 AM
As many know, one of the great resources for we modelers is Google Books. A trade book published in 1916 was my source for designing my chutes and gates.

S-A Labor-saving Machinery - "A Reference Book of Information Relating to the Design & Application of Conveying, Elevating, Screening & Transmission Machinery & Accessories" (http://"https://goo.gl/aRUxf8")

The Stephens-Adamson Mfg. Co. produced a vast array of conveying, elevating, screening and transmission machinery and accessories. Stephens Adamson (SA) was founded in 1901. Sold to 1964 to Borg Warner for their Morse Chain Division. In 1970 sold to Allis Chalmers. When Allis Chalmers went bankrupt in the 1980's it was sold to a Swedish company.

From this book I used a couple of their rack and pinion gates to create my own design. Their Style No. 9D and Style No. 10D.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on October 23, 2017, 12:11:34 PM
Thank you, Ed. That was a lot of work to write and an extremely valuable reference for any modeler using SketchUp. We owe you lunch! -- Russ


Title: Scaling from 1:48 to 1:24
Post by: eTraxx on October 23, 2017, 03:02:32 PM
Here's Version 6 of the chute. This was uploaded to Shapeways as a test upload .. and it failed. Everything passed except for one small place .. on the backside


Title: Scaling from 1:48 to 1:24
Post by: eTraxx on October 23, 2017, 03:06:12 PM
Zooming in .. note the part that I have highlighted. This sharp edge .. call it a knife edge .. failed on the checks. Remember .. I posted the minimum wall thickness for WSF. That is .7mm .. and the software sees that 'knife edge' .. the sharp bit .. as being under that .7mm minimum. You would think that the software might be smart enough just to round that bit off .. but .. shrug .. not so.


Title: Scaling from 1:48 to 1:24
Post by: eTraxx on October 23, 2017, 03:08:25 PM
To get around that 'sharp edge' error .. I simply raised a .8mm ledge at that point. At the 1:48 scale model it only makes a small bump .. no biggie .. and it passed the checks first time


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Bill Gill on October 23, 2017, 03:11:00 PM
Ed, Thanks, Excellent! Reference information combined with your experience.


Title: Scaling from 1:48 to 1:24
Post by: eTraxx on October 23, 2017, 03:21:03 PM
Since the plan is to scale the chute up to 1:24 I made a change .. I flattened that sharp edge. Note that I made it .8mm wide .. not the .7mm minimum. I have to repeat .. the minimums cause a lot of pain. I think it has to do with and .. and I mean .. ANY ... rounding of the minimum .. will cause the software to take a dump. By adding that small .1mm to the minimum eliminates that problem.

looking at the chute with a sectional view shows that I made the walls .8mm .. everywhere as the minimum. In O scale .. that .8mm works out to about 1-1/2" full-size.  Note also that there are two sizes of holes printed. The ones on the flange sides are .762mm/0.030" .. to match the .030" shank on Tichy nbw. Honestly .. there was no reason to put the holes in the flange there as they will be covered with the gate assembly. I suppose it is just one more instance of my OCD. I did it because I could! :) The holes across the top I made 1mm/.040" after the test printing as I ended up drilling out the original .030" holes with a .036" drill bit.

The small 6.35mm box? That will allow me to scale the model .. later.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on October 23, 2017, 03:21:59 PM
Ed, Thanks, Excellent! Reference information combined with your experience.
Thanks Bill. That is what am trying to do here .. show how I screwed up .. and how I fixed that screw up. :D


Title: Scaling from 1:48 to 1:24
Post by: eTraxx on October 23, 2017, 03:52:36 PM
Ok. Enough of that. Let's scale the darn thing. So. Since the model is in Pmm (Pseudo mm) the model is in .. call it .. virtual mm. In O scale 1ft = 0.250" or 6.35mm. I simply created a cube 6.35mm on a side (yeah .. could have made a simple square .. but the cube is prettier). Various dimensions indicated for the 'fun' of it. Note the ... " ... since I am actually modeling in Decimal Inches .. but ignore that. Pretend you are modeling in mm

Scaling is as simple as using the Tape Measure tool .. clicking the 6.35 length of the box .. typing in 1.270 (in 1:24 1ft - .5" or 1.27mm) .. and hitting enter. Ah ha. Instant scaled model. Oh .. since the ... " ... (units format) may confuse people I unchecked it so just the numerals show. Hooray .. we are modeling in mm (well .. Pmm)

Take note if you wish of the dimensions but we will look closer at them in a bit.


Title: Scaling from 1:48 to 1:24
Post by: eTraxx on October 23, 2017, 06:08:26 PM
Let's look at some of the numbers ..

  • nbw holes are now 2mm dia. Full-size that would be 1.89 in.
  • The boss has a 3.124mm dia. Full-size that would be 3 in. dia.
  • The boss height is .6mm. Full-size that would be .57 in.
  • The flange is 1.6mm thick. Full-size that would be 1.5 in. thick.
  • The chute walls are 2mm thick - Full-size 1.89 in.

So .. this starts some questions ..

  • the nbw holes. I used Tichy #8035 nbw. These represent a 3" washer with a 1.5" sq. bolt in O scale. The shank is .030"/1mm. In 1:24 you could for example use Tichy #8273 which would be a 3.75" washer and 2" sq. bolt.  This nbw has a .050"1.3mm shank.
     In any case .. the nbw used .. will dictate the dia of the hole.
  • Again .. the boss dia will depend on the washer dia of the nbw used. If the Tichy #8273 were used I would suggest a 4" dia boss - 4.5mm dia perhaps. Again .. depends on which nbw is used. Just pointing out that selecting the nbw dictates the design.
  • The .6mm boss height is fine .. minimum embossed height in WSF being .2mm
  • Flange and chute wall thicknesses seem about right .. but that is the sort of thing that needs looking at early on in the design.



Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Ray Dunakin on October 23, 2017, 09:59:51 PM
Thanks for taking the time and effort to post all this!


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on October 24, 2017, 05:29:43 AM
Heck .. fun times Ray.  :D

at this point the important thing is the shank size for the flange nbw. The other question is the thickness of the flanges and such. Note that the chute itself is now 2mm .. which calculates to 1.89 in. full size. That seems a bit .. excessive . IMO! I would push it back to the 1mm thickness that I used for the 1:48 model. The flange thickness not such a big thing


Title: Scaling from 1:48 to 1:24
Post by: eTraxx on October 24, 2017, 09:21:17 AM
Think it might be helpful/interesting to show how I stumble though re-working the rescaled chute. Calling this V1 for the purposes of this discussion. It isn't really but 'good nuff' for showing off the changes. I reduced the flange widths to .8mm .. which in 1:24 is approximately a 3/4" flange. I left everything else along for the moment .. I like to save each major change under a 'version' because you can guarantee I will screw up something at some point.


Title: Scaling from 1:48 to 1:24
Post by: eTraxx on October 24, 2017, 09:26:00 AM
Here's a better look at the chute at this point .. I removed the chamfering as trying to reduce flange thicknesses would be a pain otherwise. I tried adding larger bosses to fit the Tichy #8273. Looked ok .. pretty much .. but afterwards I decided that I really didn't need them since the #8273 nbw has those large washers. There was also the problem with trying to add a chamfer which possibly could interfere with the bosses.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Bill Gill on October 24, 2017, 10:00:36 AM
Ed, Among the many things you do that I really like is strike an elegant balance between prototypical fidelity, modeling necessity and artistic expression. Good stuff!!!


Title: Scaling from 1:48 to 1:24
Post by: eTraxx on October 24, 2017, 10:10:10 AM
V3 - removed the bosses. Added centerlines for the nbw holes. This is where you really need to keep this copy before proceeding .. with ANOTHER copy

In the next two steps I punch holes for specific Tichy nbw .. but this is a good starting point if we need to drop back and punt with another brand/style of nbw for example .. or even move/re-arrange the position of said nbw




Title: Scaling from 1:48 to 1:24
Post by: eTraxx on October 24, 2017, 10:14:45 AM
V4 - punched 1.36mm holes through the flanges. This is an *assumption* (with all the dangers that term presents - with why you always work from a copy) .. assumption that we are using #8273 nbw with a 0.050" shank. That translates to a 1.27mm shank. Therefore making the hole .1mm larger works pretty well.

Just for the fun of it I have put a couple of Tichy #8273 nbw in place for visual 'fun'.


Title: Scaling from 1:48 to 1:24
Post by: eTraxx on October 24, 2017, 10:16:15 AM
Finally with V5 - I added .4mm chamfers to the V4 chute.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Bill Gill on December 17, 2017, 07:51:16 AM
Stumbled onto this site/store at Shapeways and thought some forum members might find these circa 1915 crawler models interesting. But I can't find what scale(s) they are https://www.shapeways.com/designer/tracmodel/creations


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: 5thwheel on December 17, 2017, 08:59:41 AM
I read under the pictures two at 1:87 - HO and last one, 1:64-S. Look good.

Bill Hudson


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: SandiaPaul on December 17, 2017, 09:01:25 AM
They look pretty good. I randomly choose the 45 HP 1915 one and it is available in S and O scale.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on December 17, 2017, 02:39:40 PM
They usually show renderings of the models. In this case, every image in the link is a rendering. If anybody actually buys one of those models or anything similar, please post an image of its appearance before you clean it up. Might be educational for many of us. -- Russ


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: nk on January 11, 2018, 07:38:19 PM
A plea for help.

I have neither the aptitude nor the inclination to make digital drawings for manhole covers for my ongoing projects. Does anyone have a suggestion for a person who does this kind of work (and I am happy to pay, of course)?

Thanks for your help.

Narayan


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: finescalerr on January 11, 2018, 08:20:15 PM
Many of us could help you. Ed Traxler seems to be our current resident expert but even I might be capable of something like that. I am very slow, though, because I don't use SketchUp regularly so use me as a last resort. -- Russ


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on January 12, 2018, 07:35:47 AM
I just pulled this up .. something I did a while back for my own amusement. Do you have anything specific in mind for the design, name etc." Scale etc.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Mobilgas on January 12, 2018, 10:08:41 AM
Bill gill,   I believe the tractors  you spotted were being sold on E-bay from somebody?  I had them on my watch list at one time. They were selling O scale...S and HO


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Bill Gill on January 12, 2018, 02:31:05 PM
"Bill gill,   I believe the tractors  you spotted were being sold on E-bay from somebody?  I had them on my watch list at one time. They were selling O scale...S and HO" Craig
Thank you, Craig.

Ed! Good to see you posting. I like the manhole itself along with the cover.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: nk on January 13, 2018, 09:12:13 AM
I just pulled this up .. something I did a while back for my own amusement. Do you have anything specific in mind for the design, name etc." Scale etc.

Thanks Russ and Ed. I am getting some very generous help from a forum member. I know it has been said before, but this forum is incredible.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on January 13, 2018, 10:29:55 AM
hey .. it's part of why we hang out here I think. Sharing is like a series of mini-lessons :)


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Mobilgas on January 15, 2018, 11:41:50 AM
On the 1915 crawler models....There's a person selling on E-bay sellers name [tracmodel] Item number 122846422600  115.00 dollars with free US shipping.  Check it out ;D


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: LesTindall on September 22, 2018, 12:03:54 PM
Russ left a remark back in December about the results from 3D printing as compared with the "computer image" on adverts.   It is definitely a case of "buyer beware" (other than Shapeways who produce some good stuff). I have had a chimney and dome 3D printed for my 16mm scale Garratt - superb (not cheap but worth it), however there are now an increasing number of manufacturers offering 3D printed items. Having just purchased some items I find they are only fit for the bin.  Are they using cheap home quality printers and then selling these items commercially for a quick mark-up?    Has anyone else had such bad experiences.     
Les   


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Greg Hile on September 22, 2018, 09:49:26 PM
Interesting. I'd love to hear more details on what you have been finding

I've been running a test over the last year or two comparing 3D print jobs of the same file. One was from Shapeways, two from different printers at local libraries, and one from my cheap $200 entry-level printer, a Monospace IIIP v.2. Attached is a photo (not the best quality photo I will admit) of the four pieces side by side. Just out of curiosity, which one came from Shapeways and which one came from my cheap entry-level printer?


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Lawton Maner on September 23, 2018, 05:56:46 AM
At the Friends of the East Broad Top reunion this weekend a vendor had some 3d printed parts foe sale.  The printing base for one of them had a surface pattern which in a larger scale could represent a generic access cover.  If you need one with a particular logo on it that would be a bit harder.  But for a generic cover just print a circular base you would use to print the part and you would be done.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: LesTindall on September 23, 2018, 09:13:04 AM
Greg, I'm probably wrong but Shapeways No2, your printer No.4.

The items I recently purcheased had so many print "lines" on them I couldn't do anthing with them, not even able to shade around the raised detail to produce something acceptable.

Les


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Greg Hile on September 23, 2018, 01:54:48 PM
Yeah, that’s not good. Actually the Shapeways print was No. 1 and mine was No. 2. 3 and 4 came from the Lafayette and Walnut Creek branches of the Contra Costa County Libranch, respectively, and, quite frankly, since I model outdoor railroads at the turn of the century era and am also subject to the 10-foot rule, all of them are pretty much acceptable at that distance.


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on December 01, 2018, 08:12:54 AM
Attention Chuck Doan ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=welbl333b-s


Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: Ray Dunakin on December 01, 2018, 11:22:28 PM
Attention Chuck Doan ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=welbl333b-s

Wow. That is the strangest "caterpillar" track system I've ever seen.



Title: Re: 3D Printing - General Thread
Post by: eTraxx on December 02, 2018, 02:20:47 PM
Attention Chuck Doan ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=welbl333b-s

Wow. That is the strangest "caterpillar" track system I've ever seen.



Yeah .. my very first thought was something in the order of .. "WTF?"