Westlake Publishing Forums

General Category => Modellers At Work => Topic started by: lab-dad on October 29, 2012, 05:02:22 PM



Title: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: lab-dad on October 29, 2012, 05:02:22 PM
Next up on my list of machines is the power hacksaw.
I will be using Brett Gallant's O scale model (MT-550) as my reference.

First off though I need to understand how the machine really worked.
All the power hacksaws i have seen (modern) pivot up at the front and use the sawframes weight to move through the cut material.
I have searched the internet but only found one good image  :(

On the model it looks like the sawframe moves vertically.
And (I am assuming) it looks like an operator would turn a crank to lower the sawframe.
Wouldn't this also make the linkage to the eccentric have to change length (get shorter) as the sawframe moves down?

Also it looks like the vice bracket can pivot in order to cut angles?

I'd like to make all these things "work" on the model; The vice, the feed, the pivot & I'd also like to be able to spin the drive wheel and see the blade move back & forth.
I'm trying to unthrone Dallas as the crazy king! :o

Any help is always appeciated!
-Marty

(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii121/lab-dad-jones/CHBHacksaw.jpg)


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th) operation help???
Post by: marc_reusser on October 29, 2012, 06:03:55 PM

I'm trying to unthrone Dallas as the crazy king! :o

Any help is always appeciated!
-Marty


To each scale there must be a crazy.

Looks like another great build....

Don't look to me for help...I know nothing about this stuff ;D  ;D

M


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th) operation help???
Post by: EZnKY on October 29, 2012, 06:30:37 PM
I have a Marvel DrawCut No. 2.  This is essentially the same saw as the one made by Western Scale Models.
I could take a movie of it if you'd like, but there are also a number of movies on youtube showing the saw in operation.

Mine's been converted from flat belt drive to an electric motor sometime in the 20s.


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th) operation help???
Post by: lab-dad on October 30, 2012, 05:07:43 AM
Thanks Eric,
I "think" the WS one pivots at the base.
I beleive the blade on the 550 moves vertically.
I will look on you tube.
Knowing the name/model of my prototype would be helpful.
Marty


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th) operation help???
Post by: granitechops on October 30, 2012, 08:21:21 AM
Going from memory, the blacksmith in Exeter had a real ancient hacksaw, probably 3 ft blade,  it looked like the  power stroke  was delivered horizontaly, to the rear base of the saw frame, which pivoted as neccessary from the end of that arm as it  cut through the material. Obviously such a machine would only be useful for relatively small cross sections, anything really big would need either a longer saw frame to keep the cutting angle reasonable or an automatic horizontal adjustment.

In the one I saw the work was at the front end of the blade allowing for the most shallow cutting angle

In your example of the 550 what exactly did the feed move?
was it perhaps a vertical feed of the vise?

Judging by the wheel size, 14", the blade frame is only about 28-30" long  

Incidentily he moved into a small building that was left over when the huge foundry in Exeter ( Tan Lane?) was demolished so his saw may have actually come from the foundry


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th) operation help???
Post by: Malachi Constant on October 30, 2012, 10:26:48 AM
Yes, well, I think I may be the King of Demented Little Silly Details ... and you'll easily rise to King of Clever Mechanical Miniatures, if you're not there already!  ;D

No idea how it works ... look forward to seeing how you sort it out (and looking for videos and getting the right leads there sounds like a real good step) ... and imagining that it would make a helluva nice cheese slicer!  ;D

Cheers,
Dallas


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th) operation help???
Post by: michael mott on October 30, 2012, 11:18:43 AM
Marty, the small ratchet wheel is in all likely hood a feed ratchet that would be operated by the action of the saw moving backwards, so a constant feed, perhaps similar to a shaper.

Michael


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th) operation help???
Post by: lab-dad on October 30, 2012, 05:45:04 PM
Well after lots of drinking, er THINKING and research I think I figured it out!
I am still amazed at the quality of Charles Brohmmer's models.
Part # 9 the horizontal slide "slides" in dovetails on the top of the cabinet.
Part # 8 Vertical slide & sawframe also sits in dovetails on the Horizontal slide.

So my thinking is inside the cabinet there is an eccentric (referred to in the drawings) and obviously connected to the pulley.
That connects to a protrusion from the horizontal slide running down inside the cabinet using a connecting rod.
Therefore the whole deal; #9 & # 8 are moving back & forth "sawing"

Like Michael said the ratchet would allow the fore/aft action of the sawframe to advance the feed screw with each movement.

I have played with some pieces & parts and it seems feasible...............just now I need to build it, make it work and fit it inside the 1/2" cabinet!
Easy. :-[

Marty


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th) operation help???
Post by: granitechops on October 31, 2012, 04:47:38 AM
Aw, cmon Marty, its not that small
by a quick guesstimate the base cabinet is 1/2"  x 1"  x 1"  in 1/16th   ;D  ;D   ;D    ;D

For a man of your metal it will work!!


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th) operation help???
Post by: lab-dad on October 31, 2012, 06:05:36 AM
The base cabinet is .500" wide, 1.332" deep and 1.632" tall.
 ;)
-Mj


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th) operation help???
Post by: Chuck Doan on October 31, 2012, 08:07:55 AM
The original CHB instructions call this a "No. 4 Q and C ".  Lots of power hacksaw videos on YouTube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wcgm5iucqK4&feature=related  A Q and C No 1. No idea what it stands for.


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th) operation help???
Post by: lab-dad on October 31, 2012, 08:37:20 AM
You have an original?
Any chance of scanning me a copy of the instructions? (I know there isn't much).

"Q&C" = Quick & Cheap?

Thanks Chuck!!!!!!!!!!!
-Marty


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th) operation help???
Post by: Chuck Doan on October 31, 2012, 10:40:09 AM
Scan sent


(http://images46.fotki.com/v308/photos/9/777399/10366138/ph-vi.jpg)


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: lab-dad on November 01, 2012, 06:41:41 AM
Materials ordered.
Thanks to several emails (thanks! Chuck & Dave M. ) and attachments I am ready to move forward.
Stay tuned to this channel for more information as it becomes available.

-Marty


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: EZnKY on November 01, 2012, 05:26:40 PM
Looking forward to seeing it in action!

I love watching my Marvel cut.  Sometimes I just put scrap in it to watch the action, but don't tell anyone...


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: TRAINS1941 on November 01, 2012, 06:52:04 PM
Looking forward to seeing it in action!

I love watching my Marvel cut.  Sometimes I just put scrap in it to watch the action, but don't tell anyone...


Watch it Russ will have you standing in a corner!!!! :)

Jerry


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: Malachi Constant on November 03, 2012, 10:50:05 AM
Marty --

Check out this work on a 1/12 scale tool chest:
http://www.toolchest-site.com/category/miniature-tool-chests/

Cheers,
Dallas


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: Mobilgas on November 03, 2012, 03:06:37 PM
The 1/12 tool chest is a piece of Art  ;)   


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: lab-dad on November 04, 2012, 08:10:06 AM
Yes, that 1/12 chest is amazing!
I had seen it years ago in Finescale Woodworking.
As you can tell I only subscribe to Finescale magazines!  ;)
-Marty


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: shropshire lad on November 04, 2012, 11:36:16 AM
Also delivered to Marty's door each month in brown envelopes is :

    Finescale Crocheting

    Finescale Scrapbooking

    Finescale  Cabbage patch doll Collector

 and , of course ,

    Finescale Penthouse .


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: lab-dad on November 04, 2012, 01:25:07 PM
You forgot the best of all (unfortunately only quarterly) Finescale Tiddlywinks!


Anyway........back to the real thread.
Working on the sawing action for the saw.
What you can not see is the eccentric (on the backside) for the saw.

(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii121/lab-dad-jones/B56E2198-F222-4CAA-AD61-48DB20FC24E2-5220-0000076CCDD70DD4.jpg)

Now I am in a conundrum about the size(s) on this machine.
I was lucky enough to get links to patent drawings of the actual machine.
So I went here;
http://ia700802.us.archive.org/16/items/cihm_50672/cihm_50672.pdf
And printed out page 11.
A very elegant piece of equipment.
Wonderful specifications but....
When i print out the page the pulley scales out to 14" the sawblade 17" (matching the specs)
but nothing else matches.
"height of work table" says 21" not when the blade and pulley scale out correctly, it is 30"
Overall height says 3' 4" but I get 4'!
I did a cardboard mock up of the base (based on the CHB dimensions) and the machine looks diminutive compared to the others. It almost looks like the wrong scale!
May be i am not used to how BIG the other machines really are.

Anyway all things considered I think I will build the table height at 30" not 21" as listed.
Also looking at the CHB machine it is much wider/squat that the patent images.
I guess like everything the equipment evolved over time...........

The few i have seen actual pictures of were secured to chunks of timber so i will also do that.
What do you guys think?
21" or 31"????????????

Marty


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: Younger on November 04, 2012, 01:56:40 PM
How about 30", Marty?
-Younger


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: eTraxx on November 04, 2012, 02:06:47 PM
I was trying to remember how high our power hacksaw was when I was a machinist. I want to say .. "knee high". I would say the larger pieces sawed the lower it needs to be. If you are using a crane to move a thousand pounds of steel bar to be sawed it needs to be low. JMO. Anyway .. by accident I ran across this .. thought it interesting. Homemade Power Hacksaw (http://www.vintageprojects.com/machine-shop/power-hackSaw.pdf)


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: TRAINS1941 on November 04, 2012, 07:22:05 PM
I go with Ed.  I think it should be low to the floor.  Like what you have done so far.

Jerry


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: lab-dad on November 12, 2012, 11:13:33 AM
Working on the sawing action.
Hope the link works.
Mj

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii121/lab-dad-jones/C21FC1C2-8A7C-4EB0-A0D4-CFA54B862FE0-418-000000476C782D40.mp4 (http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii121/lab-dad-jones/C21FC1C2-8A7C-4EB0-A0D4-CFA54B862FE0-418-000000476C782D40.mp4)


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: TRAINS1941 on November 12, 2012, 12:15:33 PM
WHAT NO SOUND?????????????????

Pretty dam good though!!!! :)

Jerry


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: EZnKY on November 12, 2012, 05:11:15 PM
Very cool!


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: Chuck Doan on November 13, 2012, 10:32:22 AM
Yes indeed!


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: lab-dad on November 13, 2012, 11:04:37 AM
Thanks!
It is a little tall, I intend to lower it eventually.
-Marty


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: lab-dad on November 14, 2012, 04:09:20 PM
(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii121/lab-dad-jones/787EF9DF-C10A-4F19-A4B7-855E4EB30C65-418-000001CE42873507.jpg)

(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii121/lab-dad-jones/5D0F2434-1988-42DA-9F4A-B31C8A8FB960-418-000001CE4CB58F57.jpg)

I also reduced the height.
Mj


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: Malachi Constant on November 14, 2012, 04:17:19 PM
Oooh! :o  Neat hinge-n-latch action ... nice contours on that base too!  -- Dallas


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: finescalerr on November 15, 2012, 02:29:39 AM
You know I hate it when you start with the metalwork. It always looks great ... and mocks my lack of skill. -- Russ


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: lab-dad on November 15, 2012, 05:28:59 PM
(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii121/lab-dad-jones/D51D0F3B-6EA2-41BC-85FA-DC1612B84D12-1899-000002ED840F1F45.jpg)

The feed raises and lowers the saw,
just like its supposed to.

Mj


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: Chuck Doan on November 15, 2012, 06:06:37 PM
it's neat to see how this worked-I had never considered it.


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: Malachi Constant on November 16, 2012, 12:30:34 PM
Well, crap, that's nifty, clever & nutty all together!  ;)  -- Dallas


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: SandiaPaul on November 17, 2012, 07:26:58 AM
Hey and it's an upside down drill press too! ;)

Nice metal work!

Paul


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: lab-dad on November 17, 2012, 05:00:57 PM
Lol
I wondered who was gonna mention my drill
Or my prescision 9/32 pin.
Marty


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: Scratchman on November 17, 2012, 08:23:11 PM
Very nice work, Marty Jones.

Gordon Birrell

http://www.flickr.com/photos/77318580@N00/


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: NE Brownstone on November 21, 2012, 03:14:19 PM
Lol
I wondered who was gonna mention my drill
Or my prescision 9/32 pin.
Marty

Christ.  Don't tell me you made that too!  ;)

I'm waiting for Marty to show us a picture of the engine he builds from his tiny machine tools.

On a side note, I used to own an old Hendy universal milling machine with a swiveling table that could be set up to make drill bits.  You needed a geared dividing head that would connect to the table's lead screw on the right hand side where the hand crank was located.  I never had that type of dividing head so I never got to try to make a drill bit.  Not like I really wanted to.  Cool thing about that mill was that All of the table's movements, including up and down were mechanically power fed complete with automatic stops.  Not just the horizontal table travel.  Pretty sweet for a machine that was built around 1920.  It was almost if not a dead ringer for Sierra West's milling machine.  It was a beast.  Even had a backgear for super slow hogging.  Alas, I no longer have it.


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: lab-dad on November 23, 2012, 12:41:27 PM
Thanks Russ,
You had some great tools!
I just recently obtained a No. 0 hand operated
drill press. In the process of restoring it.
I would loce to have a few flat belt machines (1:1) someday.
Someday.....
Marty


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: lab-dad on November 27, 2012, 03:55:11 PM

Nothing earth shattering but did manage to finish the vice.

(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii121/lab-dad-jones/0E10868F-06CA-497B-9D04-DC18095AF72B-644-000000F10F5F825E.jpg)

Works like it should, of course  ;D
More complex to solder up than I expected.

Now on to the handle!
Marty


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: Chuck Doan on November 27, 2012, 04:00:27 PM
What do you use for soldering? torch, iron etc.


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: lab-dad on November 27, 2012, 05:26:31 PM
Chuck,
I usually "tin" with a gun then use a micro torch
to do the final joint.
I also have a pencil for finer work.
I really need to save up for a resistance rig (or build one)
but continue to make do.


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: Lawton Maner on November 27, 2012, 08:49:06 PM
After seeing the latest Modeler's Annual, I want the dental spot welder used to make the V&T Passenger Car handrails. 

You can make a resistance soldering center with a 12 volt car battery and a couple of carbon rods from the local welding shop.  I suspect I might be able to do the same with a couple of copper rods and a foot switch.

Maybe one of the mechanical wizards on the forum could lead the way.

We once "smoke tested" the controls on a friend's model railroad with a 12 volt car battery and burned up most of the cheap,yard sale push buttons he was using to control it's turnouts.  There is more then enough power in one to power a resistance unit or spot welder.


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: lab-dad on December 02, 2012, 12:03:52 PM
Construction is finished............sort of.

(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii121/lab-dad-jones/DSC_6668.jpg)

I see i forgot the bolts to hold it to the floor.
Also the pulley has been bothering me since I started.
I hope to find the right size raw material to make a new one in brass.
I'm thinking a 3/4" compression ferrule would be a good start.

-Marty

BTW; working on the big a$$ walls but going a lot slower.
Mj


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: finescalerr on December 02, 2012, 02:38:24 PM
Coming along rippingly, young Martin. -- Russ


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: Gordon Ferguson on December 02, 2012, 03:41:31 PM
Looks great Marty, can you do me a favour and include something in the pics to give me a sense of scale and how did you make that base?


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: lab-dad on December 02, 2012, 07:25:36 PM
I dont know about "rippingly" Unc, about the only thing getting ripped is me!

Gordon.
Hopefully the shot below will give an idea on the size.

(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii121/lab-dad-jones/C2FBE4F7-05CE-4BF0-9587-C36A4AEA9F1B-2352-0000003DAB678C59.jpg)

Overall height to the top of the frame adjuster levers nuts is 3.25"
The brass cabinet is 1.385" wide and 1.350" tall (above the wood base).
The base is 2.135" wide at the very bottom..

The base was made using a "cove" bit (3/8") in my router table and forming the radius on the base up side down. Then just flipping it over.

I'm still "thinking" how I am going to do the tapered & flared base for the grinder!... ???.....

Thanks for looking guys!
-Marty


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: Design-HSB on December 06, 2012, 02:42:54 PM
Hello Marty,

I like your machine, especially since I had such an engine is slightly smaller in the original possessed.
I think it's a great idea to build such a machine in the model.


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: lab-dad on December 16, 2012, 04:59:31 PM
All done!

(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii121/lab-dad-jones/FinishedA_zpsb26db128.jpg)

(http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii121/lab-dad-jones/FinishedB_zps4ffa5a83.jpg)

The prototype pics i have seen show it mounted to a slab of 2x4's bolted together on edge.
This is something I may do after i get the placement all sorted out.
Thanks
Marty


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: Gordon Ferguson on December 16, 2012, 05:12:13 PM
Marty,

I really do like the way you paint these pieces .... just looks right!


Can I be picky, the handle on the side just does not look right to my eyes .... don't ask what it is ...... maybe it should be formed from a flat strip and the bolted through the door ???

The other suggestion I would make is that where the fixing bolts go there should be , what I call bolt stand-offs to raise them up from the tapered base so that the bolts go straight down vertically and have a true horizontal surface to bare down .............. you see them on Ford Model T and A cylinder heads

I'll shut up now and head for my own little corner 


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: Ray Dunakin on December 16, 2012, 07:43:39 PM
Stunning! Looks like the real deal to me!


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: EZnKY on December 16, 2012, 08:44:32 PM
Looks great Marty!

My only comment would be to add some shavings.  My (real) saw gets a line of shavings all over it roughly in line with the blade.  They get stuck in the oil it slings, forming a goopy mess that's perfect for cutting you as you try to clean it up.
Ask me how I know...


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: TRAINS1941 on December 16, 2012, 09:48:41 PM
Excellent job.  Beautiful paint job as usual.

Jerry


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: finescalerr on December 16, 2012, 10:38:11 PM
Most satisfactory. -- Russ


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: Andi Little on December 17, 2012, 02:59:54 AM
Simply most excellent - great build, great paint, great job.


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: Hydrostat on December 17, 2012, 09:18:14 AM
Overall fantastic, Marty! I espesially like your paint jobs. How do you create the blank areas with the rusty stains?

Volker


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: lab-dad on December 17, 2012, 10:28:03 AM
Quote
Overall fantastic, Marty! I espesially like your paint jobs. How do you create the blank areas with the rusty stains?

Volker

Thanks everyone!

My paint jobs are a bastardized version of the "hairspray" technique.
I basically do the following;
Basecoat with solvent paint; brown /black
Topcoat with acrylic
Wait about 7 - 10 minutes and scrub with a swab or paintbrush dipped in alcohol where the "wear" "should" be.
If I take too much off I go back with a cosmetic sponge and the color.
I add additional rust spots with a cosmetic sponge, almost a dry brush but dabbing.
Scratches with a tiny brush.
Final tweaks are with powders and artists oils depending on weather I want a dusty or oily end result.
Sometimes (like on this model) there are areas of each so i got to be careful.

Once i get it installed i will add the requisite shavings and oil puddles.

Gordon, I had thought about both items you mention but it was time to be done and move on. May be i will revisit the machine after I get its home finished......

-Marty


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: Malachi Constant on December 17, 2012, 12:52:27 PM
Holy sheep ship!  Looks great all finished up.  -- Dallas


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: k27rgs on December 17, 2012, 06:51:38 PM
Thankyou for sharing another fine piece of artistry

"M"


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: marc_reusser on December 19, 2012, 03:17:30 AM
A real beauty Marty. Just lovely. And it absolutely has the feel of the real thing.



Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: lab-dad on December 19, 2012, 07:09:09 AM
Thanks Marc!

I'm looking forward to getting it in place and all the swarf, stains and crap piled around it!

-Marty

working on lintels and coloring :-[ :-\


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: michael mott on January 12, 2013, 06:52:26 PM
Marty, the jump from the brass and wood to the finished product, c'mon now! one is your model and the next is the full sized one you copied right?

Michael


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: lab-dad on January 13, 2013, 07:07:19 AM
Thanks Michael!
But they are the same.
Still working on a better blade though.
Marty


Title: Re: Power Hacksaw (1/16th)
Post by: chester on January 13, 2013, 08:16:32 PM
Really nice Marty, great and yet simple job on the finishes. I purchased some inexpensive jewelers saws once (kind of like a miniature coping saw) and the blades were very thin in dimension as well as more teeth per inch. They would have been perfect for your machine.