Hi all,
I have a few questions for the expert and not so expert painters among you.
I am nearly ready to start painting the Marion Shovel and would like some advice.
Nearly everything I have done before I just hit with a rattle can or fogged with an airbrush and called it good enough, but I feel this project deserves a little more.
The finished model will represent a piece of equipment that is 10-15 years old and in use but kept in good repair, so there will be bumps, dings, scrapes, and faded paint as well as dirt grease and grime. There will be very little of the severe rusting and paint chipping that you all do so well.
The base colors on the machine will be; grey cab interior, red oxide cab exterior, and semi gloss black for the underdeck, wheels and boom. Maybe a darker shade of grey for the swing, hoist and crowding engines themselves just for some contrast.
The materials involved, as you know if you have followed the build thread, are; styrene, wood, brass, steel, and a few other plastics as well as white metal castings. So I need paints, at least a primer that will work well with these various materials.
I am thinking of using all Acrylic or water based paints to stay away from the solvents and the issues with styrene. What is available locally is; Model Masters "Acryl", Tamiya Color acrylic paint, and Polly scale railroad colors.
What would be the best primer to use under these various colors or do I need a primer at all?
If I use a grey primer that could also work as the cab interior color should I over spray that with a clear sealer so it won't mar?
The steel wheels and the dipper "bucket" will show as bare steel where the paint has been worn away, how do I best show that over the grey primer and black finish coat?
And a thousand other questions?
Any offers of advice or direction will be gratefully accepted.
Thanks for your time.
Rick
Hi Rick
I would use Tamiya Acrylics for all your colour painting. Good range of colours available in their matt armour range.
for all "metal" components I recommed Alclad Metal Laquers (www.alclad2.com) these are superb matalics in an excellent range of metal colours. these are real metals in a alcohol based carrier and form the foundation to further weathering & ageing. An alternative to the Alclad is the Model Master Metalics range (cheaper compared to Alclad but not as good), which come in polishing & non-polishing formats. Use the polishing format for better results, since they will stay matt until you polish them allowing you to work up various textures and "wear & tear".
for primer under all finishes use a self etching commercial quality acrylic primer.
Artist oils are an essential material for your washes and to create depth in the model. When using these use synthetic terpentine as the dilution agent.
I really suggest that you have a look at the Alclad web site to see what these paints are capable off, you will be amazed. I realise that Alclad is not known to most train guys , but are an absolute "must" for the aircraft model builders. great product and a bargain at the price.
your wonderful model deserves the best possible solutions in the painting & weathering to truly bring it to life. Perhaps we should ask Chuck Doan to work up a tutorial for it. I for one will be watching with considerable interest to see how it develops.
have fun & enjoy
Bernard
Bernard has said it all. -- Russ
FWIW,
Definitely a primer so all the materials start out the same color.
Some pre-shading would also be a good idea.
I like to use solvent based paints for the base colors (read that as the bottom colors you would see/or expose)
Then use acrylics over the solvents.
That way you can use the acrylics thinner (alcohol) to remove a little of the paint or a lot as needed.
This is similar to the hairspray technique, but I dont find I need the HS.
The model masters acrylics seem to work for me, no Tamiya source here.
Also their line of metals (that you buff) are good too.
I often use Vallejo for the little details as it is just easier clean up, and i am often doing several different colors in one sitting..
Artists oils can be used for filters, oil and grease (add a little powder for Chuck's gunk mixture).
I usually like to finish up with powders, especially in a dirty or dry environment.
Hope this helps.....
-Marty
Sounds like you are getting some good advice. I have little expertise on painting styrene. Most of what I do is small stuff (mostly wood) and I have only recently begun airbrushing (and not all that well yet). Mostly I build things that need a crappy paint job to cover my a**! I also build and paint as I go rather than do the whole build first, which requires some different thinking.
See if you can search for additional paint advice that is already here somewhere. I know Marc has given very detailed advise re airbrush paints to use. When he is able, he might point out some other posts.
I just want to offer a correction regarding the Alclad products. They are lacquer based (not alcohol) and usually require an airbrush for application. This may not be an issue for you but some I know refuse to use lacquer because it is noxious. Most of the Alclad metalizers also require a gloss black enamel base for them to show ultimate results.
Hi guys,
I am reading and absorbing, I just don't have time for in depth response and further questions this evening but will get back to you all tomorrow.
Thanks for the helpful responses so far.
Rick
Hi Rick --
Regardless of the media/mediums you choose, you might want to have a look at the new DVD by Mig Jimenez, which was covered here recently:
http://www.finescalerr.com/smf/index.php?topic=784.0
He's, um, quite skilled ... and the video is a concise 1 hour demonstration, start to finish of a tank. It demonstrates pre-shading as Marty mentioned, plus some tips on filters, color modulation, chipping, etc, etc.
This particular DVD demonstrates the use of acrylics ... BUT ... you can read Mig's stuff on using oils, solvent-based paints, etc on the web. Point here is that if you're like me, actually seeing him go thru the process is very inspiring. I think MichToy.com and MissionModels.com have it in the US now.
Meanwhile, some of Mig's articles are viewable on-line here:
http://www.missing-lynx.com/rareworld.htm
And, of course, re-read this entire forum for much better info ... just skip over the occasional bit about a thong or standing in the corner! ;D
Cheers,
Dallas
Bernard,
Thanks for the detailed information. I have nerver seen the Alclad products before but have used the buffable metelizer stuff from Model Masters, I think, with mixed results.
Wouldn't there be a problem applying the lacquer over Acrylic paint?
Marty,
That is what I have always done in the past, use enamel or lacquer for the base colors and Acrylics for the weathering. I was hoping to be able to get away from spraying the solvent based stuff this time around primarily because of the fumes and clean up headache. Not to mention the possible bad reaction with the styrene.
Chuck,
yea, I understand, that's why I model beat up old logging lines.
Dallas,
Thanks for the links, I have checked them out.
Well, just too much information about too many different ways to do things. Just have to make some choices and see how they work out.
Thanks for the help!
Rick
Rick,
I have Mig's DVD on doing everything with acrylics....but after two careful reviews, I am not sold on the process. O feel the washes and such that he does in acrylic are not comparable to doing them with artists oils. If you want to borrow the DVD PM me your addy and I will send it up to you to check out.
FWIW here are my basic 2-cents on the painting issue (I have some disagreements with some of the previous suggestions, but that is all a matter of personal taste and what I feel is a safe-and-sound and reliable/consist. results):
When doing painting and weathering on a model, I always work "opposite meduims" if acrylic based paints for the colors, I use oil based model or artists paints for the weathering...and Visa-Versa (caveat here being that you can do same over same....but you should/need to, put a clear coat of the opposite between your steps. IE if painted with oils, add an acrylic clear layer before weathering with oils).
I also ALWAYS recommend using the thinner made for the specific paint....yes some have sucess using "other stuff" that is cheaper...but I never find penny pinching being a good choice when trying to do the finish work on a model.
Insofar as steps/materials:
Primer Coat: I use spray can primer, I prefer Mr. Surfacer 1000 or 1200, but the Tamiya primer is also good.
Paints (with what you have available): I prefer the Tamiya. They are consistant, very fine pigment, go onn smootha nd even, and lay down perfectly flat and tight.
Preshade: in Tamiya Acrylic (airbrush only)
Color Coats: Tamiya Acrylic (airbrush only)
Panel Fading: Tamiya Acrylic (airbrush only)
Filters: Artist Oil Paints (I use Rembrandt and Windsor Newton.....but....my ultimate choice is the Abt.502 oils available through MIG USA, I have found these to actually dry flat/matte...which is not the case with regular artists oils [die to the linseed oil carrier medium]....there is a workaround to getting rid of some of the sheen when working with regular artists oils, and that is to place a dab of the color(s) you will be needing o apiece of cardboard/chip-board (like the back of a paper pad, and let the linseed oil soak out of the paint for a bit. Then take the dab and place it onto your working surface/artists tray, to use.)
Chips, Flakes, Dings Etc.: Worth web ordering a few Vallejo Acrylic colors. They can't be beat for small detail brush work. (if you order online try Great Models on the esta coast...they are really good with service and take credit card or Paypal...and have a great stock/selection of all sorts of stuff. I got my last package in 4 days after placing the order.)
Rain Steaking: Have used both Acrylics and artists oils (such as a Buff or Paynes Grey)
Washes & Pin Washes: Artists Oil Paints
Rust: Artists Oils and Pigments
Dust and Dirt in corners and on surfaces: This is a whole subject in an of itself, but mainly I use a combination of airbrushed acrylic and MIG, CMK, AK, Andrea, AGAMA, and Bragdon's pigments. I adhere place and wor the pigments using turprintine/white spirits. for heavier build-ups and clumping I use MIG Pigment Fixer.
Grime and Grease: Artists oils (often mixed and combined with pigments for areas of heavier build-up), I also use some of the specialty products from MIG and AK.
Shiny & Worn Metal: acrylic undercoat color, and then metallic pigments and or graphite (yes the Allclad stuff id great...but it is a lot of work, and takes some getting used to...also your surfaces need to be really well prepped and smooth...and it needs to be airbrush applied)
I think that about covers the genear aspect. Note though, that this process is then left unsealed, to show all the suble differences and variations between finishes, shades textures, materials and wear. If you seal it, you will loose the wonderful differences/subtleties. ....but I know that you likely will need to be handling the model, so you may not be able to avoid a sealer coat.
Marc
Marc,
Wow, a lot here to absorb. Thank you for the outline of steps to use, now if I can just learn what some of it means :).
Do the Tamiya flat colors mar easily? you know leave lines on/in the dry paint where a fingernail or some other hard object rubbed against it. If so should overcoating with a clear sealer prevent this?
I will take you up on the video offer, will send PM.
Thanks all,
More questions later.
Rick
Rick,
Got the Pm. Will send it out this coming week.
I have not noticed that the Tamiya paints mar easily....but I tend to be pretty careful in my handling of painted parts (often wear cotton gloves so as not to leave fingerprints).
One thing to consider when painting your model, as it is not a worn run down unit, the paint likely still has some amount of sheen/lustre to it, so I would mix in a small amount (trial and error to your preference) of Gloss Clear. (this should alleviate your potential marring concern) This will give you a slightly satin finish. the satin finish will also make the washes more controllable, and give you a bit of texture/finish differentation between the following weathering steps.
Marc
When using Tamiya acrylics what type of Air Brush is now being used for model railroad work.
It has been a long time that i have been out of the hobby. Back in the late 70's early 80's Malcolm Furlow & I worked to gether here in Jacksonville on a little Hon3 layout & did some work in the Gazette & model railroader.
For some reason I want to get back in the hobby & are working on a little 32mm Regner industrial engine that
I would like to weather & detail this little engine out.
After reading some of Marc Russner work in this fourm & seeing & reading on his little 1/48 scale tractor locomotive in the spring 2010 annual. I would like to get started the right way (no bad habits to have jump up later)
What i can not believe is what we though was good work in the early 80's is junk by today standards.
Thanks,
Mike Sigmon
Jacksonville, Fl
Welcome back to the hobby and the forum Mike. I remember that layout and still have the magazines. Haven´t looked them up but as far as I remember that was a great layout - a very large version of Furlow´s San Juan Central. Is it still intact?
Myself I´m using a Badger 200 EX airbrush (single action) that have worked just fine for more than twenty five years and they still make them with a few more options. Look up the 200 Series if your´e interested.
Anders ;D
Mike,
Welcome to the forum, and thanks for the kind words.
Opinions re. airbrushes are like rear-ends, ...everyone has one. ;) So since you asked...here's mine ;D
I have worked with Badger (single-action, no idea what model..so old) and Paasche (it's a VL, or VL-H, double action), both which I still have and use for crude/rough work,.....but I now work exclusively with an Iwata Hi-Line HP-CH ( http://www.coastairbrush.com/proddetail.asp?prod=H4100 ) for any finish painting.....and IMO you would be hard presssed to find a better airbrush than Iwata. Yes, they are not cheap...but like with any tool you get what you pay for...and this tool is after-all, the final step in a long modelbuilding journey....and if you don't do it right, all that was so hard won/built before, is for naught. [In this vein I also recommend an Iwata compressor. (I use the "Power Jet Pro", ( http://www.coastairbrush.com/proddetail.asp?prod=IS%2D900 ) it's finely adjustable, and very quiet...I can shoot indoors at 3 am in the room down the hall from where my wife is sleeping, and it doesn't bother or wake her (even with doors open)
I like the double-action, as I feel it gives me far greater control, and range; it's not as easy to use as a single-action...and I occasionally have to stop and check the settings when changing parts/tasks I'm painting. ...but the fact is, is that I can do that, and dial it in exactly for what I need to accomplish.
I also recommend a built-in top feed cup with a lid; not a bottom feed or bottom attachable cup,.....also, don't get all worried about cup size, or having the ability to attach jars. I can't recall an instance where I have ever needed more paint than the cup of my Iwata holds...most often I can do what I need with the cup 1/2 full or less. (IMO, if you are shooting more paint than that on a 1/87 or 1/48 model, you are doing it wrong).
I have come across discussions where it has been mentioned that all the airbrushes on the market are pretty much manufactured by just a couple of plants/factories in China, the difference is the specifications, design and quality control that the contracting mfr. requires of the factory. It is apparently possible to buy airbrushes from another company (cannot for the world of me recall who), that has airbrushes made in the same factory as Iwata, and to the almost identical spec, but with a different name of course...can you say "pirating" or "knock-off" ;D
In the end you need to choose a tool that suits you, is in your budget,...AND....one that you can grow into/or will make you grow......if you buy one that only meets the most basic need...or "OK for my purpose", it will not give you much flexibility, and you will not have much of a chance of improving or getting better.
I will now step down from my soap-box.
HTH
Marc
PS: As you probably noticed, the links took you to Coast Airbrush, which is where I bought/buy my equipment. I can't say enough good things about them, very knowledgeable,great service, good pricing, and what seemed like instant shipping (had it the following day...but then I do live within about 40 miles :) ) and they stand behind their sales...and they also ship worldwide (foreign pricing right on page). Have a look through their site, they carry a wide variety of airbrushes and compressors from a variety of mfrs, and if you have questions, you can give them a call and they would probably be glad to help you.
Hey Marc
I have a similar model Iwata, bought it in November to upgrade my workhorse brush, but haven't really used it yet because the instructions that come with the brush are mainly in Japanese, with a Japanglish translation. And the instructions tell me not to remove a mystery part, not identified in the exploded view. :-\
If you could explain your usual cleaning procedure for your brush, that would be very helpful. Apparently its very easy to clean the Iwata. But with the fixed paint cup, it doesn't field strip like my other brush, so I'm not sure how to get at the internals, or if its necessary.
Thanks!
Dave
Dave , sent you a PDF to your e-mail address that may assist
Mike:
Here is a thread on the MIG Forum which discusses Iwata airbrushes, and some others as well. May be of interest.
Gordon:
Can I please get a copy of that as well. Am curious.
Dave:
My cleaning is pretty basic. I use it for acrylics, so during extended breaks while spraying, I will empty and wipe out the cup, then I will run through some 99% Iso alcohol, and rinse the whole brush front in a small cup of the iso. When the airbrush is sitting there I will leave the cup filled with Iso...then when I start back up, I will dump the Iso, and shoot some distilled water, or some Tamiya thinner...depending on the paint...to rinse the Iso. out of the works (don't want unexpected reactions with the paint or surface thats being shot).
When done shooting I will repeat the first part from above, and if necessary due to any seriously dried /set paint, also shoot some laquer thinner through, and rinse the nozzle in same. I will then pull the needle wipe it, shoot some more Iso or Lacq. thinner through. Will then use a Q-tip and and soft cloth or piece of paper towel (and on occasion a pipe cleaner) to get down into the cup and into the needle canal a bit. Shoot some more Iso....reinsert the needle, pull it back out....wipe it on a soft rag to see if it is clean. I will do this till I am satified that the AB is clean enough to meet my stsndards. If necessary I will use an aurbrush reamer, or the back of the needle inserted into the needle canal, to remove/loosen any stubborn residue. During all this I will also remove the tip and clean that with Iso/Lacquer thinner using a Q-tip and/or a soft rag. If during use I felt that the the spray/air button is feeling a bit sticky, I will pull it out and clean it in a cup of Iso/Lacq. thinner. Depending on use, once or twice a year I will break the brush down completely and soak everything in lacq. thinner, and if/where necessary will carefully use some very fine steel wool on the needle shaft and any of the internal moving parts if I feel there is any old paint residue that is causing them to bind or not move as smoothly and freely as they should.
It sound a lot more tedious than it is...the whole cleaning process only takes about 5-mins.
HTH.,
Marc
Don't disregard the Grex airbrush. Really like this one.
http://www.amazon.com/Grex-Genesis-XT-Trigger-Gravity-Airbrush/dp/B002XQ2K5M (http://www.amazon.com/Grex-Genesis-XT-Trigger-Gravity-Airbrush/dp/B002XQ2K5M)
Similar assembly to Iwata and Iwata also makes a trigger control but costs more.
Cleaning, I use http://www.amazon.com/Iwata-Medea-NAC-201-Cleaning-Station/dp/B000VADIVC/ref=pd_sim_dbs_t_2 (http://www.amazon.com/Iwata-Medea-NAC-201-Cleaning-Station/dp/B000VADIVC/ref=pd_sim_dbs_t_2)
And you can read this thread on the forum for more info http://www.finescalerr.com/smf/index.php?topic=1188.0 (http://www.finescalerr.com/smf/index.php?topic=1188.0)
8)
Guys,
If I can add my few cents?
This is my first post for this forum, as today I became a member.
I have been a member of Model Trains Weathered forum for about six years now. I have learned to use Winsor Newton Artists Gouaches, they are an opaque form of watercolor paint in a tube. Did I mention they are water based? the nice thing is if your not happy with the results you can use a Kleenex and some car window washer fluid, wipe it off and start again.
For those that don't like Turpentine or Var-sol for artists oils because of the smell, you can now get odorless solvent for your oils.
The only beware I have is shop around for prices before you buy the Gouaches and/or the odorless solvent.
Here in Canada the best place to buy these items is an true artist supply company not Micheal's. Both items are priced three times higher at Micheal's then at the Artist Supply companies.
Ralph
Attached is a photo of an engine done with Tamiya white mixed 90% alcohol 10% or less color to fade the black engine color. The weathering is a combination of AIM powders and artist Gouaches. The rust on the body and the trucks and wheels is Artists Gouache.
I almost forgot. The oil stains on the fuel tank is done with Mig Products dark wash, a few coats until you're satisfied and then a coating of Future Floor Finish to make it look wet. I model in HO
I hope you approve of the process, it works in any scale?
Ralph
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi179.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw304%2Frrenzetti%2FWeathered%2520Engines%2FTrainPhotos023.jpg&hash=87353e83075ffa8c145a47e1f5e827a8c960a723)
(https://www.finescalerr.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi179.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw304%2Frrenzetti%2FWeathered%2520Engines%2FTrainPhotos022.jpg&hash=39f9ccc2d622a3e8ad643bfdb443586c80f6ce03)
Not bad. At first I thought I might be looking at a large scale model. Then I looked more closely and deduced the scale. If you're good enough to throw me off scent, even for a moment, you know what you're doing. -- Russ
Chuck said
QuoteI also build and paint as I go rather than do the whole build first, which requires some different thinking.
Chuck this is something that I have noticed a few modellers do, for some reason I have been reticent to do this. What are the pros and cons of painting as you go versus painting the model after it is built?
regards Michael